Restricted Legends Tiering Discussion

Take Azelfie

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#51
Yveltal I would say in A- easilly since it can punish any thing with a high attack and supports offensive team mates with Sucker Punch due to it having Dark Aura, You don't have to waste an item slot of Leftovers or Life Orb since Black Glasses works perfectly fine and it can support its team mates with Tailwind and also stop Smeargle from using Dark Void and other crap.
 
#52
Yveltal I would say in A- easilly since it can punish any thing with a high attack and supports offensive team mates with Sucker Punch due to it having Dark Aura, You don't have to waste an item slot of Leftovers or Life Orb since Black Glasses works perfectly fine and it can support its team mates with Tailwind and also stop Smeargle from using Dark Void and other crap.
Agreeing with this. Yveltal's a God.

While a lot of people are using it mainly for Foul Play and Sucker Punch, Dark Pulse is a highly-spammable and consistent attack that is an absolute nightmare to switch in to unless you have a resist. It also has a flinch chance, which is always nice.

Dark Aura itself boosts the power of Sucker Punches from Mega Kanga and Mega Mawile as well, which can potentially land them KOs on mons they couldn't reach before with said move.
 
#53
Ok. HOW is Mega Rayquaza NOT S/S+ rank?!?
It was literally BANNED FROM UBERS. THAT IS HOW OP IT IS.

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Mega-Rayquaza is the FIRST item-unrestricted ~800 BST pokemon. (Most other Ubers are ~700, and the ones that get close to MRay's BST have item restrictions, allowing it to exploit its large stats alongside a good item such as a life orb/leftovers/etc., while others are stuck without any items) Top that with a ridiculously OP ability in Delta, reducing its 4x ice weakness to only 2x, and nullifying its rock weakness. Not to mention it's good offensive typing and a moveset with a wide array of powerful moves.

Mega Rayquaza: A -> S/S+

Also non-mega Rayquaza is completely outclassed and should be moved accordingly (Not in same ranking as MRay, also maybe move down to A- because of opportunity cost)
 
#54
Ok. HOW is Mega Rayquaza NOT S/S+ rank?!?
It was literally BANNED FROM UBERS. THAT IS HOW OP IT IS.

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Mega-Rayquaza is the FIRST item-unrestricted ~800 BST pokemon. (Most other Ubers are ~700, and the ones that get close to MRay's BST have item restrictions) Top that with a ridiculously OP ability in Delta, reducing its 4x ice weakness to only 2x, and nullifying its rock weakness. Not to mention it's good offensive typing and a moveset with a wide array of powerful moves.

Mega Rayquaza: A -> S/S+

Also non-mega Rayquaza is completely outclassed and should be moved accordingly (Not in same ranking as MRay, also maybe move down to A- because of opportunity cost)
Everyone knows it's stats and attributes and you're confusing singles with doubles. They're completely different beasts and Mega Ray while still undoubtebly one of the best in the meta is not broken like it is in Smogon Ubers due to a variety of factors. Your post looks very much like pure theorymonning what it can do rather than telling us why these attributes make it S-rank in the context of VGC 16.
 

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
#55
Ok. HOW is Mega Rayquaza NOT S/S+ rank?!?
It was literally BANNED FROM UBERS. THAT IS HOW OP IT IS.

---

Mega-Rayquaza is the FIRST item-unrestricted ~800 BST pokemon. (Most other Ubers are ~700, and the ones that get close to MRay's BST have item restrictions) Top that with a ridiculously OP ability in Delta, reducing its 4x ice weakness to only 2x, and nullifying its rock weakness. Not to mention it's good offensive typing and a moveset with a wide array of powerful moves.

Mega Rayquaza: A -> S/S+

Also non-mega Rayquaza is completely outclassed and should be moved accordingly (Not in same ranking as MRay, also maybe move down to A- because of opportunity cost)
sunny004, never try to apply singles information to doubles. Even if you get lucky and are about right, not only are you restricting your own view of the issue but you also appear uninformed to people who actually think with a doubles mindset. For example, the opportunity cost of Mega-Rayquaza is much higher than that of regular Rayquaza because it's both a Mega and a Restricted Legend, and regular Rayquaza has the better ability of the two because Air Lock negates weather whereas Delta Stream can be overturned by both of the Primal Weathers. Beyond that, it's weak to Xerneas, one of the most common Pokemon in the format, which also happens to have spread to bypass redirection.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
#56
sunny004, never try to apply singles information to doubles. Even if you get lucky and are about right, not only are you restricting your own view of the issue but you also appear uninformed to people who actually think with a doubles mindset. For example, the opportunity cost of Mega-Rayquaza is much higher than that of regular Rayquaza because it's both a Mega and a Restricted Legend, and regular Rayquaza has the better ability of the two because Air Lock negates weather whereas Delta Stream can be overturned by both of the Primal Weathers. Beyond that, it's weak to Xerneas, one of the most common Pokemon in the format, which also happens to have spread to bypass redirection.
Coming from UBERs to VGC 16 is actually very different. First of all Mega Ray can beat most things in a 1v1 situation but since its main moves are single attacking it doesn't apply the same pressure. Plus in VGC moves like Fake Out and Follow Me are a lot more common making Mega Ray an easier target to pick off. Pokemon like PDon, Xerneas and POgre who all have insane attack power and moves that target both users make them a lot bigger threat.

Normal Rayquaza isn't outclassed but I would say it should be slashed next to Mega Ray since they both are the same thing except for when you don't bring a mega against an opponent you have the option to mega Rayquaza but it isn't forced you do so.
 

Jibaku

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#57
Ok. HOW is Mega Rayquaza NOT S/S+ rank?!?
It was literally BANNED FROM UBERS. THAT IS HOW OP IT IS.

---

Mega-Rayquaza is the FIRST item-unrestricted ~800 BST pokemon. (Most other Ubers are ~700, and the ones that get close to MRay's BST have item restrictions, allowing it to exploit its large stats alongside a good item such as a life orb/leftovers/etc., while others are stuck without any items) Top that with a ridiculously OP ability in Delta, reducing its 4x ice weakness to only 2x, and nullifying its rock weakness. Not to mention it's good offensive typing and a moveset with a wide array of powerful moves.

Mega Rayquaza: A -> S/S+

Also non-mega Rayquaza is completely outclassed and should be moved accordingly (Not in same ranking as MRay, also maybe move down to A- because of opportunity cost)
Let me tell you a thing or two, about Mega Rayquaza in Ubers, and Mega Rayquaza in VGC2016.

Mega Rayquaza was overpowered in Ubers for a couple of reasons that don't apply in doubles:

The sheer power of Mega Rayquaza's sweeping ability is a result of Ubers being a single battle format. This meant that, if Rayquaza kills something, the turn is over and is reset when a new Pokemon comes in. What that means is there is little stopping Rayquaza from killing mons after mons. In doubles, Rayquaza must be mindful of its target selection, and the potential revenge kill from the target's partner. Worst situation is Rayquaza attacks a Protected target and gets bopped by the partner. That kind of stuff doesn't exist in singles. He kills your mon, and he kills your mon again. This kind of sweeping threat caused all playstyles but hyper offense to crumble, which caused games to be extremely linear: whoever manages to set up Mega Ray first wins the game. If you thought Primal Groudon was centralizing enough, Mega Ray just takes it to the next level by invalidating defensive playstyles because things die over and over again too quickly with barely any room to counter it. At least Primal Groudon allows many different playstyles to exist.

Furthermore, his opportunity cost is zero in Ubers. There is no Uber limit, and Mega Ray was clearly the best mega.

VGC2016 brought several new issues for Mega Ray. Aside from the aforementioned singles/doubles difference, Mega Ray's high focus on single target damage combined with its relative frailty (make no mistake, 105/100/100 is respectable, but between Dragon Ascent drops and its weaknesses to the ever so common Dragon, Fairy, and Ice attacks can cut its life short). Rayquaza often has to carry Protect to defend itself from enemy focus, which limits its coverage compared to in Ubers (and Ray gets basically every coverage option but it only gets like 1 slot to use them). Its signature set up sets in Ubers run into issues in doubles, where Speed control is common. ExtremeSpeed can only take it so far against Trick Room, for example. Disruptions like Follow Me and Fake Out also open Rayquaza up to counterattack. Finally, it eats up both the restricted and mega slot on your team, which is something that perhaps separates Mega Ray from the likes of Mega Kanga and Mega Salamence, and it means Rayquaza has to work overtime to cover up for team composition deficiencies caused by this stacked restriction.

That's not to say Mega Ray isn't good, and it's possible that after the hype train crashed after Day 1 that Mega Rayquaza will eventually find its way out of A and into A+. It's still a strong mon, but at this rate it just seems very unlikely it'll ever reach Groudon tier.
 
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