Beginner Returning to Our Roots NOC Mafia - GAME OVER: The Mafia Wins

Discussion in 'Circus Maximus' started by Walrein, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    Fine if no one wants to promote discussion then I will! Even though I said I'd be quiet... I guess I lied!

    I find auramaster's attitude to be a bit disturbing. He doesn't want to post unless he has something to contribute? I dunno about anyone else but that worries me.

    I'm also worried to khz. A lot, and I mean a lot of his posts are really short and they usually don't have a lot of substance to them. I mean, look at Ditto. Ditto was constantly prodding inactive players and Ditto ended up being mafia. This isn't anything concrete I just think its something to be aware of.

    EP I really am lost on. On one hand some of the things he's said have pointed to town. But then other posts I just can't make out what he's trying to say. To be honest, I'm leaning towards town, but I wouldn't be very suprised if he was village.

    Now that the game's coming to a close we need to be more active posting and be less eager to lynch. Looking back, we should not have lynched OD so quickly (although his claim didn't help). Come on people, post more!
  2. khz

    khz

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    @Jalmont:

    1. Please explain how short posts is a scum tell, apart from Ditto doing the same thing. By that logic, Ditto posted lynch votes on people and was mafia, you also posted lynch votes on people, therefore you are mafia.
    2.http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3981388&postcount=572
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3982594&postcount=579
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3982848&postcount=583
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3983762&postcount=597
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3984057&postcount=608
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3984092&postcount=613
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3984133&postcount=619
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3988525&postcount=674
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3997347&postcount=724
    All of these are posts by you that, when you take out quotes from people, are what I also find short. That's 9 posts, you've made 19 posts in total, so about half of your posts are short. I probably have more short posts than you, but that's because I have posted more than you.
    3. I find long winded posts useless because:
    -They often repeat the same thing over and over
    -They usually can be written in less words
    -People often skim over them or totally ignore them
    -They are often padded out by tons of quoting other people, which tbh I find tedious to do most of the time

    Jalmont don't take this personally, but I'm just getting kind of annoyed at people using my "short posts" as a scum tell but never explain why it's scummy
  3. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    ?_?
    I never said that posting lynch votes is a sign of scumminess... All I meant to say was that Ditto was scum and most of his posts were asking inactive people to talk. A certain percentage of your posts have been really short 1 question posts (iirc like when you OD voted me instead of Pernicious and you asked him to clarify). I don't think that this necessarily makes you scum. But I don't understand why Ditto posting lynch votes has anything to do with this discussion at all. I never even brought that up so if you could clarify that bit that would be great.

    Other than the fact that "short" is subjective, I don't see what you're trying to prove here. When I say "short" I am simply referring to the fact that some of your posts don't really have to do with anything and are unnecessary (like when you asked OD to clarify why he voted me when I hadn't posted anything). And of course you have more posts than me you've been in the game longer.

    Ok? Then don't post long winded posts? If you can't be bothered to put some thought in a lot of your posts, then how can you not expect someone to eventually call you out?

    Which "people" have been using your short posts as a scumtell other than me? In fact, auramaster and pokemaniac both said they think you're town. And I never said that I think you're definite scum, I said you might be. And I'm almost positive I said why I though you might be scummy. Frankly, all I really wanted to do was to start up some discussion again because no one had posted in a while, and I'm sure many want to finish this game up before the new year. In all honesty, I think this post is a gross overexaggeration to my thoughts. And I guess you could say the same about me in response to pokemaniac, but in that case I was in actual danger of getting lynched, unlike you. Anyone else want to pop in and post some thoughts about this?
  4. khz

    khz

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    You're argument pretty much went like this:
    -khz makes short posts
    -Ditto makes short posts
    -Ditto was mafia
    -Therefore khz may be mafia
    All I did was point out that that argument was ridiculous by replacing "short posts" with "lynch voting" or something like that.

    All I was trying to say that pointing out me for having short posts was a bit strange given that you often did exactly the same thing. And if any of my posts were irrelevant/unnecessary then I wouldn't have made them. And I don't see how asking OD to clarify was unnecessary, his reasons for voting in that particular post was strange. I'm going to quote here since it's probably easier:



    I read this, sans the part where he realises his mistake obviously. But when I went back to find that post from "Jalmont," it didn't exist! Yes, it was possible that OD made a mistake, but it was also possible that you deleted it, which in my mind would have been scummy. Therefore I asked him to clarify, which he did, and it turned out it was the former.

    It's not that I didn't put thought into my post, it was rather that I find it better to express those thoughts more concisely.

    Okay I'll concede that you're the only one who has said this, but in my defence I read your post about it on the last page and forgot who it was when typing that. And I don't see how I'm over exaggerating, you're the one that seems to be getting so worked up.
  5. khz

    khz

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    By my count, deadline is in about 14 hours (Can someone please check this?). Therefore Walrein can we have an extension please, or if not possible then please be more active.
  6. Walrein

    Walrein

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    I will extend deadline by 6 hours, so that I have time to wake up and see if discussion is still occurring. If discussion is still going on, I will extend again. Otherwise, deadline.
  7. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    No that most definetely wasn't my logic. My logic was
    -khz has a lot of posts with just one sentence or posts that don't really add much to the discussion
    -Ditto also didn't add much to the discussion but instead prodded people to post
    -Ditto ended up being mafia
    -Perhaps khz is trying to do the same thing?
    -They both make it seem like they are contributing when they really aren't
    And I don't see why you would substitute in lynch voting when it really has nothing to do with what I'm point out (except that apparently my argument is "ridiculous").


    Ok here's some more examples:
    posts 630, 632, 564, 400 just to name a couple.
    I'm not pointing this out as a reason to lynch you I'm just trying to provide some active discussion (something we are sorely lacking).


    If you forgot, you could've just gone back and checked... Although I will say you're right that you're not over-exaggerating, I think you're just being overly defensive over nothing, I didn't post a lynch vote for you, all I said is that maybe you're scum.
    lol
    Nah I'm not the one thats worked up, that's you.

    Edit: Is anyone else concerned that after all was said of auramaster, all he could say was "Sorry for not posting sooner :( Don't like posting unless I have something really helpful to say, and was really busy today. I'll try to post more." That was all auramaster had to say after not posting for over 6 days. Hmmm...
  8. khz

    khz

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    Which is almost exactly what I wrote? Anyway the point I was trying to make is that I find how similar/different people play to one another irrelevant for the most part.

    Okay then...

    I made a mistake... such is life. And personally I don't think I'm over defensive, particularly late game when we can't rush into a lynch.
  9. Mithril

    Mithril
    is a Past WCoP Winner

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    Alright, finally able to sit down and get a more thorough read of the thread. This is what has hit me.

    At this point the most suspicious person to me has to be Jalmont. While I don't pretend to know what logic or reasoning the mafia is using for kills, leaving something as strong as a Hooker alive this long does seem somewhat odd. On top of that, all of his posts seem to be overly defensive, especially when there doesn't seem to be a reason for it. Post 718 is a good example of this to me, especially his last line. It's like he is trying to see how is post could be viewed as scum and then attempted to counter it. This seems like something very scummy to me. On top of that, he seems like he is "buddying" with me, continually lumping the two of us together. I know I'm town, and it feels like he's trying to seem like we are teammates. That worries me.

    As far as other people that I find suspicious, the first two names that come up for me are Aura and Ginga, and for different reasons. I realize that both Aura and myself haven't been posting much lately, but the lack of discussion is discouraging. On top of that, even when Aura was posting a lot, it seemed like he was providing info and not opinions, with his vote counts among other things, almost as if he wanted to post, but was afraid that his opinions would make people suspicious of him.

    As for Ginga, I realize he has come into a bad situation. The constant inactivity of three players before him does come off as suspicious. I'm not sure why people would sub into the game only to not say anything unless they felt they were already screwed and didn't feel like trying to dig out of a hole. Contrary to this Ginga has been posting, and as far as I am concerned he has been pretty helpful, so based on that alone he's starting to fall towards village for me, but he must be discussed nonetheless.

    Outside of that, khz is seeming village to me. His posts aren't gigantic, but they seem to be helpful to me. Kaxtar also has to be considered clean at this point, with the lack of a mayor-claim and the previous lynch with only five people accounting for majority.

    EP and pokemaniac have been going back and forth for me. I obviously thought that pokemaniac was suspicious early, and some of his posts today just come across as kinda odd, such as 703, but I don't think it's enough for me to state that he's mafia. EP has just had some strange opinions all game. But at least they are his own opinions, which at least for me is important, so I'm going to go with him as village for now.

    That's what I've got to say right now. With finals over I will definitely have more to say.

    EDIT: This just occurred to me, but I don't think we have had any discussion on the reason for no role released for empoof. This just seems curious to me. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I was wondering if anybody had any opinions on why he has the one role that isn't released. Is he possibly a Rogue or something?
  10. auramaster

    auramaster

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    Since EP has everyone confused, having him talk more seems helpful. EP, who do you think are the three most likely Mafia members and why?


    Only 564 out of those four was unnecessary IMO. Jalmont's posts have been longer then yours khz, especially today.


    So you're saying that posting strange opinions a lot is pro-town, while not posting your opinions as much is scummy? I have posted opinions on different players multiple times during the game, but I prefer working with information as my opinion can be (And has been already) flawed. Also EP was criticized earlier in the game for only posting info with no opinion <_<


    No clue, Rogue makes sense but wouldn't he have resurrected by now? Maybe his role is that it isn't revealed upon death?
  11. pokémaniac 212

    pokémaniac 212

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    I don't know how common a role it is here, but on other sites I've visited mafia quite often has a janitor which prevents role from being revealed, so thats my best guess.
  12. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    I've only got one right now, but I think we can see a duality going on.

    Jalmont: I don't know how many times I've said this already, but he subbed in for AG just after AG became extremely suspicious and strange with his ploy against MB. Since then, he's been playing very aggressively (actually, pretty similar to how OD played) even with the open claim of hooker. He hasn't been killed yet and the bodyguard has failed thus far, which means that either a) nobody has targeted him with a night kill, or b) he's managed to hook whoever has targeted him. However, b) cannot be true, since there's been one night kill by the mafia each night (the flavor for Empoof's death is also "beaten and shot," according to the post in which he died). As a hooker is probably village's strongest role right now, I honestly don't see why this would happen. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but hooker is more commonly seen on the mafia side. Given that there have been no counterclaims for hooker, wouldn't this point to him being mafia? Food for thought, I guess.

    khz: Reading this last page, I think he's almost certainly not aligned with Jalmont. Does this seem like a deliberate argument to you? Since I'm inclined to say that Jalmont is scum, my guess would be that khz is village.

    Now, it'd be great if our only confirmed villager could talk !_!
  13. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    Reporting for duty, sir.

    I also think that Jalmont has been acting scummy. Simply put, a few of his past posts have been complete overreactions, and his logic hasn't been too good. Hooker on Village in NOC also seems out of place to me, becuase of the sheer difficulty of getting the hook to be useful instead of disruptive for the village.

    Ginga has been pretty good in my eyes up to this point. ofc, he should post more, but nothing other than inactivity leads me to believe that he is mafia.

    EP has also seems good to me. Nice, thorough posts, and good logic. Same applies to Mithril. Nothing confirmed, obviously, but Engineer has certainly gone up in my eyes.

    Aura hasn't defended himself well, but other than inactivity and some shaky evidence, I'm not sold on him being mafia. Jalmont is much more scummy atm.

    khz has had some very nice posts recently, and I'm more than inclined to think that he is village.

    pokemaniac needs to post more. However, given his low post count and low mafia experience, he might just be noob town instead of mafia. Given how well the mafia has been playing thus far, I would think that if pokémaniac 212 was Mafia, then his teammates would have given him some pointers. Because of the lack of skilled play, I'm inclined to think more town than anything.

    Given this reasoning, my list of general feelings on people, from most scummy to least scummy, is:

    Jalmont
    Auramaster
    Mithril
    khz
    Ginga
    Engineer
    Pokemaniac
    Kaxtar :)

    Thus, I propose that we Lynch Jalmont today. As for other night roles, bodyguard should protect one of myself/engineer/khz: we have been the most active and imo are the least likely to be mafia. Village killer should target mithril or Auramaster tonight. Both of you, please feel free to post your defense of why you are village.
  14. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    So you’re confused as to how I haven’t hooked any mafia yet? I’m scum because I haven’t hooked any mafians yet? That doesn’t make any sense at all. If you had an inspector who didn’t find any mafia would you find him suspicious too because he hasn’t found any mafia. Just because I haven’t stopped the mafia kill doesn’t automatically make me mafia.



    I don’t understand why this is relevant. Just because hooker is perhaps more common on the mafia side doesn’t mean that I can’t be town. In fact, my first mafia game I was a hooker and was allied with the village. And why would the mafia hooker reveal themselves? If someone counter claimed right now we’ve pretty much found a confirmed mafian, so I don’t understand why a mafian would claim. There were also no counterclaims for mayor either, but apparently Kaxtar’s clean. Ok then.



    ok let’s lynch the village’s probably strongest role remaining
    Lynch Jalmont
  15. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    Jalmont, I've been proven to be clean. NWO was claiming to be mayor since early in the game, and this evidence has been continually backed up by various lynches, most prominently Day Five's. Mayor on Village with double vote is almost a guaranteed role, whilst Hooker on Village is very rare. Furthermore, you have done nothing to conclusively prove that you are village (or at least, nothing more than any other villager), and this combined with a dubious role claim and shaky logic/responses to attacks makes you the most likely to be scum.
  16. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    Hooker on village is not that rare, PMD and Shift mafia both had hookers on village so don't know where your going with that. I don't understand how you're so much cleaner than me other than the fact the AG acted suspicious and I'm overly defensive. But you know it's cool. Can you please refer me to shaky logic/responses? And this is why the I haven't been killede yet. The mafia believes that I'm would be easy to push a lynch on. Lynch me and I guarentee you that village loses.

    But who cares, let's just lynch auramaster because I lied I don't want to die!
  17. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    For the past two nights, there has been one kill, each with the flavor "beaten and shot," which we can assume to be mafia kill, since "handcuffed and shot" has pretty much dropped off (my suspicion is that empoof was the vig, but I'm not sure). Since wolf died (his kill flavor was "stabbed"), the only night kill remaining is the mafia kill. Since there has been one kill per night, this means that BG and hooker haven't been successful. If you actually try to comprehend what I wrote, it means that the mafia kill hasn't targeted you, which is why I'm suspicious.
    If we're at 5 village - 3 mafia right now, a mislynch and a night kill means mafia wins.

    Walrein specifically stated that majority was >50%. We got majority with 5 out of 10 votes.
  18. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    Yes the BG and my hook haven't been successful. So what? And I tried to comprehend your post and what I got from it was that you think I'm scum because I'm not dead/haven't hooked a mafia yet. I think that's pretty absurd grounds to suspect someone, but ok.

    Ok? Like I said, I am a townie, and if you lynch me I guarentee we (village) will lose. I don't see what anyone has to lose by not lynching me.

    Edit: How does EP know there are 3 mafia left?????????
  19. Walrein

    Walrein

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    Since a lynching seems on the horizon, extending deadline 2 hours. Get 'er done!
  20. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    Can we get a lynch count so far Walrein?
  21. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    I don't know how many times I have to say this. I think you're scum because you haven't been targeted yet and you're the most powerful "village" role we have.
    ...I have no clue how to respond to this. It just looks so scummy.
    Note the "If" in front of that sentence. I concede that if there are two mafia left then there's no point in a mafia hooker counterclaiming, but if there are three, counterclaiming is in their best interests.

    EDIT: yeah ok lynch Jalmont
  22. Walrein

    Walrein

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    Vote Tally
    auramaster (2) - ginganinja, Jalmont
    Jalmont (1) - Kaxtar

    (i think)
  23. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    In that case, we need a few more votes on Jalmont to get a lynch. We certainly don't want to get a no-lynch today via a tie. Engineer, want to help us out?
  24. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    I don't mind helping. Lynch Jalmont

    Congratulations to the mafia for winning Returning to our roots NOC mafia!
  25. auramaster

    auramaster

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    Those were OC games, NOC works different, as shown by the multiple vanillagers.

    Also worth noting that "beaten and shot" has targeted more prominent villagers, unlike "handcuffed and shot" who has hit suspicious targets like TalkingLion.


    Think about it. If you were Mafia, and you knew the identity of a major village power role, would you kill them? That's what EP is saying, it's very strange that the Mafia haven't tried to kill you yet.


    He said IF there are three Mafia left. Speaking of which, quick analysis of the game numbers...

    If there are 1 Mafia and 7 villagers left, I will laugh. It seems ridiculous that there would only be 3 Mafia, but if there were, we could mislynch 3 times and still win.

    If there are 2 Mafia and 6 villagers left, we can mislynch twice and still win, if Kaxtar stays alive, which he probably wouldn't. If he dies, we can mislynch once and still win.

    If there are 3 Mafia and 5 villagers left, we can mislynch once and still win, if Kaxtar stays alive. If he dies, and we mislynch, we lose.

    If there are 4 Mafia and 4 villagers left, I'm surprised the game isn't already over. In theory, we could still win by lynching correctly and keeping Kaxtar alive.

    Lynch Jalmont

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