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CAP 2 Revenankh Playtesting

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by DougJustDoug, Apr 12, 2008.

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  1. Lil Ant

    Lil Ant

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    I have to agree with Aldaron. The fact that Shed Skin just lets that thing abuse Rest is very unfair. Like Toxic Spikes can help serve as a counter, but the Shed Skin just leaves an oblique thought in your mind like " Can i beat this thing? " When the toxic was removed thanks to Shed Skin. The Moonlight set can be out stalled and is hurt by Toxic Spikes. Also Reven can still use Rest. It just can give you a chance to switch in your Roar Pokemon, or SpecsSweeper to revenge kill.
  2. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Mekkah: that one turn of set-up is found easily when the opponent's first reaction is to switch in a Poke such as Weezing, Zapdos, Slowbro, Celebi, Gyarados, Cresselia, (or other Pokes which do well to what people believe to be the Bulk Up Set). And once you've reached 502 SAtk, it's not like you're running a gimmick set or something. You must have missed it in my post, I mentioned Togekiss (and I'll add in Yanmega too now) can take the NP set.

    Besides, my point wasn't that NP > Bulk Up, just that between the two you have hardly no common counters, and imo you should be prepared for both as the NP I posted is not just a gimmick set. For other Pokes whose place in OU is questioned by some, (this pretty much only applies to Garchomp, but I think many of you would would agree Revenankh is on that level) at least their counters are always the same Pokes.

    Okay, I kind of see a flaw in my argument, that you could compare the NP set to Chain Chomp. I guess we'll just have to wait some more and see if it catches on, but theory-wise to me I don't see why it wouldn't.

    Aldaron: Sure, there is some good to come out of using Pokes from BL to counter Revenankh, in that it diversifies the game. But it's not so much the Pokemon as the moves and specific sets you have to use on them (Metal Sound Zapdos, CM Cresselia and Celebi) which, while they might be good sets in their own right, are too specific. Is using a CM Psychic Cresselia over a standard physical wall version, or Metal Sound Zapdos over those more Bulky versions, all just for Revenankh, really something your team can handle with everything else in OU? I'm gonna make another comparison to Garchomp which I think is more fitting. The most common counter to the most feared Pokemon in OU is Ice Beam, but using Ice Beam isn't ony preparing you against Garchomp. Pretty much all Dragons, as well as a few other Pokes are brought down by this move. Sure, CM Cresselia was around before Revenankh was still great, and now there's even better reason to use it. But really for the majority of Revenankh's counters, you're being forced to run a particular set in order to counter him.

    And someone please explain to me how Leech Seed alone is a counter to Bulk Up Revenankh. I mean, you just use Bulk Up with care and calculate carefully when you'll have to use Rest, and you should be able to take out the Leech Seeder with 3-4 Bulk Ups.
  3. tgva8889

    tgva8889

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    Well, I'm not sure about Leech Seed countering Revenankh by itself, but Subseeding sure makes Revenankh sad.

    And it's cool to see that the Nasty Plot set is actually viable, theorymon-wise. That makes me happy, considering how much I wanted the Nasty Plot set to be viable as a gimmick.
  4. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Well yes, but pretty much everything except for Grass types is annoyed by SubSeeding. But the fact that its mentioned in the analysis as a "counter" confuses me. It seems to me like someone was pretty desperate to make the counter list longer...
  5. Lil Ant

    Lil Ant

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    If you look at the Pokemon who are using sub seed, they resist his highest offensive STAB move. So while leech seeding, draining his health, while he tries to Bulk Up, and is getting hit with Psychic/Grass Knot/ Energy Ball etc. Makes the Pokemon as a whole a counter for the fact its difficult to attempt to Bulk Up, while your HP is being drained each turn.
  6. Hyra

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    Leech Seed stays on until you switch or Rapid Spin it off. So, Celebi with Leech Seed + Psychic owns you pretty hard. That would be the best example. But Venusaur can use Leech Seed and resists Fighting. The second Leech Seed is landed on Revenankh it becomes infinitely easier to counter, because it is forced to heal more often and cannot attack back as much. Forcing a switch = countering.
  7. Mekkah

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    Indeed, just the same as the Bulk Up one. Thing is, Bulk Up isn't relying on surprise to do its damage, it is downright solid and hard to ram through. An unboosted Nasty Plotter, however, sports pretty laughable Special Attack, so you have to Nasty Plot first. Then you have done no damage, but pretty much gave away your set while your Def is still open. Chainchomp, to keep within your example, could Swords Dance to lure the opponent into thinking it's your basic physical attacker, or simply inflict the pain with Draco Meteor at first opportunity. It doesn't need to "Nasty Plot" first to undo its Draco Meteor from "whimp" status.

    hm yeah

    I always have trouble defining gimmick (and so does everyone else, from what I see), but it seems to me that Nasty Plot won't catch on. It just isn't very efficient when it comes to damage output. Note how Chain Chomp caught on a bit, and then faded away pretty much entirely in favor of its other versions, and how Chain Chomp is the superior gimmick by a land slide (not just saying that because I made it).
  8. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Lil Ant and Hyra, thanks for the insight on Leech Seed.

    Mekkah, you mention on numerous occasions that the NP just can't deal as much damage. Here is an excerpt from my introduction of NP Revenankh, taken from the Revenankh Analysis thread.

    The above calculations were made using a max. Attack Revenankh, which is never seen on the Bulk Up set, so I think you can easily see that right off the bat, the NP set sweeps harder. Not only right off the bat in fact, but also when at +6 SAtk versus the BU set at +6 Atk. Not to mention NP raises your SAtk twice as fast as BU raises your Attack.

    The NP set may be weaker defensively, but don't say it isn't as efficient at attacking. It is superior, and that's without even considering the surprise factor.
  9. Mekkah

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    It was already weaker defensively with the move alone, but by pumping its SpAtk to the max it becomes...almost frail. And you keep saying surprise factor, but the surprise is :gone: when it uses Nasty Plot, and again up to then it hasn't done any damage. Or quite little if it attacks first. You did a good job showing that Special Revenankh was more harmful off the bat than I thought, but it doesn't win offense by as much as Bulk Up wins durability.
  10. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Yes, the surprise is gone once it uses Nasty Plot. But at that point you've got 502 Special Attack, and are most likely facing a Pokemon designed to counter a physical varient of Revenankh. That's all the surprise you need. You're in a great position at this point.

    And I would hardly call it frail. 384 HP / 216 Def / 256 SDef (252HP/252SAtk) can definitely take a hit or two, especially with that typing. Not to mention you have Moonlight for healing to make it even less frail if you want. FYI, a Timid, Life Orb'd, 252 EV Gengar with Shadow Ball does 90% damage on average, which I think goes to show how well you can still take hits. Not as good as the Bulk Up set, but still pretty well. On a side note, this set is a counter to the Bulk Up set.

    EDIT: Speaking of frailty, the above Revenankh takes roughly 10% more damage than the standard Dusknoir does from that very Gengar. Certainly not that shabby.
  11. Time Mage

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    You want a counter? A counter to ALL sets?

    Choice Band Staraptor. It can switch on a Bulk Up and still OHKO with Brave Bird. It can switch in a predicted Ice Punch and takes 38% maximum thanks to intimidate. It is immune to Shadow Sneak, and outspeeds Revenakh always so Hammer Arm is irrelevant. If it switches on a Nasty Plot, Revenankh can't do anything. If Revenakh predicts a switch, he can do up to 90% damage with Focus Blast, but if it stays, dies again to Brave Bird (this is the only case in which Staraptor also dies).

    Revenankh will always die if it stays on a Choice Band Staraptor that switches in.
  12. Dane

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    That's weird. Maybe the Staraptors I fought didn't have Choice Band, but they only did about 60-80% (can't remember exact number), while Ice Punch I think did about 30-40%. It was enough to force a switch, but it didn't escape unscathed (neither did Rev though, but still).

    So it's quite possible that the two or three I fought weren't banded I suppose.
  13. Karrot

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    The problem with Staraptor is its inability to switch into Hammer Arm/Focus Blast, which nullifies any chance of it to be considered a counter. Staraptor is so frail and unpractical because it can't possibly switch in, fearing a powerful STAB fighting move that will more than likely 2HKO it.

    A counter needs to be able to switch in without much harm and, of course, be able to threaten the Pokemon.
  14. Time Mage

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    Staraptor uses Choice Scarf as much as it uses Choice Band, so maybe those were scarfed.


    And yes, Hammer Arm/Focus Blast does a lot, but it isn't a 2HKO, because Revenankh will NEVER be faster than Staraptor. Revenankh is dead before it can Hammer Arm/Focus Blast again.
  15. Aki

    Aki

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    the Nasty Plot is inferior just because it leaves it's lower Physical defence open, and it lacks a priority move. When you see a NP, feel free to switch Chomp or Tar in and promptly put Revenankh in it's place ;)
  16. chronostrike

    chronostrike

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    Switch in Tar? on a potential NP Focus Blast? That's >300% damage

    It's also a 24% chance of OHKO on Garchomp, not accounting for accuracy.
  17. Karrot

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    That is pretty poor logic, because if Revenankh risks being "dead" to Staraptor, there is absolutely no way the Revenankh user would leave it into a Staraptor to take a STAB Flying hit on its weakest defense.

    A Hammer Arm with minimal EV investment (0) is a 3HKO after Intimidate on a 0 HP/Def EV Staraptor. A Focus Blast with minimal EV investment is a 2HKO on the same Staraptor, whilst a max Special Attack, Modest Focus Blast always does more than 70% damage.

    You specifically stated Choice Band Staraptor to be a counter.

    The definition of a counter is "a Pokemon that can switch in without much harm and become an immediate threat to the opposing Pokemon.

    Now, then, how can a recoverless Choice Band Staraptor possibly counter Revenankh when it risks a 3HKO on the switch in from Hammer Arm or a 2HKO from Focus Blast?
  18. Dane

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    If they don't realize Staraptor with a CB can apparently OHKO, and Rev is at full, they might... >_>
  19. Blln

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    I've played a fair bit on the server today and yesterday, and I feel confident in saying that Revenankh will very rarely, if ever, get by Skarmory. Skarm seems to me to be an absolute 100% solid counter to just about every set but Nasty Plot. He isn't threatened by any of his moves, and can choose to either Whirlwind him away, or take out a large chunk of his health with Brave Bird. Many people seem to have caught on to this and have begun using Magnezone with Revenankh, but this is easily remedied by Shed Shell. Other very safe counters I have found are Gyarados and Celebi

    Also, pretty much all Revenankhs need to choose between Ice Punch and Shadow Sneak/Punch for their second attacking move, and once you figure out which it is he becomes very easy to beat. Without Ice Punch he is easily stopped by Salamence and Gliscor. Without the Ghost move (and often even with) he is easy to beat with Cresselia, Dusknoir, and Celebi.

    Basically I think we really succeeded with Revenankh. I think he fits perfectly into the metagame as a very good, solid pokemon who can be a nightmare to a team without a proper counter or as a last pokemon. He doesn't seem broken to me, he seems just about right
  20. Dane

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    I use Ice Punch and Shadow Sneak. The only things that I can't do good damage to are basically pure normal Pokemon, but can hit all those other threats.
  21. Blln

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    The problem with Ice Punch / Shadow Sneak though is that it gets pretty shitty overall coverage. Once they find out you don't have Hammer Arm then in come things like Heatran who resist both your attacks. Not to mention that also makes it almost impossible to beat something your not super effective against, like Suicune or Swampert or something, although I guess it could be interesting in that if you show your oponent Shadow Sneak first, they might assume you don't have Ice Punch and switch in Mence or something, getting you a kill
  22. sbc

    sbc

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    Ironically, the NP set probably beats the BU set.
  23. Dane

    Dane

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    Exactly. I usually get a free kill in against dragons or Gliscor or the such because they don't realize I can throw an Ice Punch. They usually stat up thinking I'll switch too.
  24. Cathy

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    From now on, if the user is missing a sprite, it will show up as a Missingno. This should decrease occurrences of this because they will just read the log.

    [​IMG]
  25. Mekkah

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    Steels and Rocks?

    I've been using Magnezone with it ever since the beginning, and it cleared up a Skarmory or Bronzong nearly every battle.

    Cool :)
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