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Revisions - Pyroak discussion

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Umbreon Dan, Dec 27, 2009.

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  1. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    What's there to discuss about Abilities that haven't been discussed about before? The only one that puzzle me is how did Poison Heal get chosen to be part of the poll? I don't remember seeing any discussion about it within this thread.
  2. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    Poison Heal was allowed because the folks in #cap suggested it over Immunity, mostly.
  3. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Based on the poll so far it seems that Poison Heal and Flash Fire are equal. Now while the poll hasn't ended yet, I wanted to pull up some points about each ability and see which of the two seem the better for Oak.

    Flash Fire (Pros):
    -Grants an immunity to a Pokemon type
    -Heatran can no longer be a 100% liable to Pyroak as it's stabbed moves just feeds Pyroak's belly.
    -The ability boost allows for more powerful Fire Blast/Lava Plumes

    Poison Heal (Pro):
    - Immunity to all forms of status affections once Poison Heal activates.
    - The 12% of healing is always a plus and make Pyroak a bit more tougher to kill.
    - Sandstorm/Hail don't bother the creature too much anymore since SS/Hail don't negate the heal brought on by Poison Heal.

    Flash Fire (Cons):
    - As mentioned earlier most times that carry fire moves are those Pyroak can already switch in or don't want to switch in fear of having it's STAB'd move resisted and/or death.
    -Heatran still walls Pyroak unless it's carrying Earth Power/EQ/Stone Edge.
    - Type immunity would be cool if it was something more common like Dragon.

    Poison Heal (Cons):
    - While Poison Heal allows Pyroak to better stall when paired with Leech Seed, it doesn't really set him apart from Celebi or Breloom in terms of Leech Seeders.
    - Rely on Toxic Orb to activate most of the time so item selection is slim.
  4. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    The poll was too close so we're doing a revote between Flash Fire and Poison Heal
  5. HeavyOctillery

    HeavyOctillery

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    While Poison Heal sounds good for a SubSeeding tank, it might be too broken depending on what new stat spread it ends up with. So I'm still behind Flash Fire.
  6. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    Since it seems improbable that Head Smash will make its way to the movepool, but there is still interest in Stone Edge, I decided to do damage calculations for this move. And the results, in my opinion, are quite interesting:

    95 base Atk, max Atk EVs Jolly, +1 Life Orb Pyroak's Stone Edge against:

    0 HP/4 Def Timid Latias: 61.79%-72.76% (2HKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Salamence (Intimidate factored in): 82.78%-97.99% (OHKO with SR)
    252 HP/180 Def Jolly Salamence (Intimidate factored in): 56.85%-67.01% (2HKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Heatran: 50.78%-59.81% (2HKO)
    0 HP/4 Def Jolly Gyarados: (Intimidate factored in): 84.59%-99.70% (OHKO with SR)
    156 HP/96 Def Adamant Gyarados (Intimidate factored in): 67.03%-78.92% (28.21% OHKO with SR)
    252 HP/252 Def Impish Gyarados (Intimidate factored in): 48.73%-57.87% (2HKO with SR, 96.38% without)
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Cyclohm: 41.46%-49.02% (77.19% 2HKO with SR)
    180 HP/212 Def Bold Cyclohm: 28.11%-33.08% (not even a 2HKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Infernape: 86.18%-100% (87.18% OHKO with SR, 7.69% without)
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Zapdos: >100% (OHKO)
    248 HP/228 Def Bold Zapdos: 73.11%-86.16% (79.49% OHKO with SR)
    0 HP/0 Def Rash Dragonite: >100% (OHKO)
    224 HP/0 Def Adamant Dragonite: 93.93%-100% (OHKO with SR, 58.97% without)
    252 HP/0 Def Modest Togekiss: 95.19%-100% (OHKO with SR, 66.67% without)
    0 HP/4 Def Modest Togekiss: >100% (OHKO)

    As you can see, the change from Head Smash to Stone Edge makes a lot of Pokémon able to check Pyroak effectively without getting instantly OHKOed. Most importantly, it turns Bold Cyclohm into a hard counter, making Earthquake and Dragon Claw solid and on-par alternatives. Looking upon these calcs, I'd say that Stone Edge Pyroak is not broken.
  7. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    So far it seems that Stone Edge isn't broken on DD Pyroak based on those calculation. Does anything changes if the attack of Pyroak was around 105? I'll probably check this out myself and post the result for any valuable differences.
  8. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    I'm going to submit a final stat spread because I love stat spreads and I think this is a good one. I think Pyroak needs to accomplish four things stat-wise for the revision to be most effective:
    1) outspeed Tyranitar
    2) take better advantage of its offensive potential and unique STABs by focusing revision on the offensive stats, keeping in mind the probable additions of Dragon Dance and Swords Dance to the movepool.
    3) maintain or improve SpA to give Pyroak good mixed offensive potential.
    4) maintain enough defense for SubSeed or sturdy Lead builds to be viable.
    So this is what I came up with:

    120/106/90/95/80/64
    PS: 127; Rank 5 - Good (+42)
    PT: 178; Rank 7 - Excellent (-28)
    SS: 118; Rank 4 - Above Average (+6)
    ST: 158; Rank 6 - Very Good (-17)
    ODB: -8.56 - Moderately Biased towards Defense
    PSB: 4.2 - Slightly Biased towards Physical
    OSR: 319; Rank 6 - Very Good (+2)
    BST: 555 (+15)

    Offenses (106/95/64): I'm giving Pyroak a big boost to attack here to make Rock Head + Recoil move sets actually threatening (who hasn't, though?). I refused to lower SpA, though, mainly because I didn't want to have to resort to Overheat to one-shot Skarmory (99.4% min w/ Fire Blast here).

    Offensive Calcs (252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Naive/Hasty and running DD/Wood Hammer/Stone Edge/Fire Blast):
    Show Hide

    +1 Wood Hammer
    Lead Aerodactyl: 119.5% - 141.1%
    Recover Tank Arghonaut: 69.6% - 81.6% (LO: 89.9% - 105.8%)
    NP Azelf: 116.4% - 137.7%
    WishBliss: 77.4% - 91.2% (LO: 100.5% - 118.4%)
    Tank Dusknoir: 51.4% - 60.5% (LO: 66.3% - 78.6%)
    SubPetaya Empoleon: 89.7% - 105.8% (LO: 116.7% - 137.5%)
    252 HP Fidgit: 59.9% - 70.6% (LO: 77.7% - 91.4%)
    Lead Hippowdon: 83.3% - 98.6% (LO: 108.6% - 127.6%)
    SubDance Kingdra: 90.8% - 107.2% (LO: 118.2% - 139%)
    RestTalk Machamp: 79.7% - 94% (LO: 103.9% - 122.1%)
    Specs/Scarf Porygon-Z: 109% - 128.6%
    Revenank (old spread, new stats): 67.6% - 79.8% (LO: 88% - 103.6%)
    Scarf Rotom-A: 99.2% - 116.9%
    252/168 Bold Rotom-A: 61.5% - 73% (LO: 80.3% - 94.7%)
    Curselax: 60.8% - 71.8% (LO: 79.3% - 93.2%)
    Crocune: 83.2% - 98% (LO: 107.4% - 126.7%)
    Tentacruel: 84.1% - 99.2% (LO: 109.6% - 128.8%)
    Vaporeon: 111.6% - 131.7%

    +1 Stone Edge
    LO Cyclohm: 34.5% - 40.6% (LO: 44.5% - 52.7%)
    MixNite: 91.6% - 108.4% (LO: 118.9% - 140.6%)
    Gengar: 81.6% - 96.2% (LO: 106.1% - 124.9%)
    BulkyGyara (Intimidate): 55.1% - 65.4% (LO: 71.9% - 84.9%)
    OffensiveGyara (Intimidate): 68.9% - 81.6% (LO: 89.4% - 105.7%)
    NP MixApe: 63.8% - 75.4% (LO: 82.9% - 98%)
    Heatran: 41.8% - 49.2% (LO: 54.2% - 63.8%)
    Defensive CM Latias: 46.5% - 55% (LO: 60.4% - 71.2%)
    Scarf Latias: 51.3% - 60.6% (LO: 66.6% - 78.5%)
    DDMence (Intimidate): 68.9% - 81.6% (LO: 89.4% - 105.7%)
    New Mixmence (Intimidate): 76.7% - 90.6% (LO: 99.7% - 117.8%)
    NP Togekiss: 79.1% - 93.6% (LO: 102.7% - 121.4%)
    Defensive Zapdos: 60.6% - 71.5% (LO: 78.9% - 93%)
    SubRoost Zapdos: 85.1% - 100.3% (LO: 110.2% - 130%)

    Fire Blast
    SubPunch Breloom: 137% - 162.6%
    Standard Wall Bronzong: 55% - 64.5% (LO: 69.8% - 83.4%)
    Defensive Celebi: 61.4% - 72.8% (LO: 79.2% - 94.1%)
    LO Celebi: 72.7% - 86.2% (LO: 93.8% - 111.4%)
    Scarf Heracross: 85.7% - 101.7% (LO: 111.6% - 131.6%)
    Steel Killer Magnezone: 83.3% - 98.8% (LO: 109.3% - 128.4%)
    Agiligross: 82.1% - 97.3% (LO: 107.6% - 126.4%)
    Physical Mamoswine: 103.6% - 123%
    Lead Roserade: 90.1% - 107.6%
    Standard Skarmory: 99.4% - 117.4%
    SpD Skarmory: 73.7% - 86.8% (LO: 95.8% - 113.2%)


    In terms of Speed, I found 64 to be a reasonable number for Pyroak.
    Some Speed Numbers:
    Show Hide
    0 EVs, neutral nature: 164
    60 EVs, neutral nature: 179, outruns CB/Lead Metagross
    68 EVs, neutral nature: 181, outruns standard Skarmory
    72 EVs, neutral nature: 182, outruns standard CBTar
    80 EVs, neutral nature: 184, outruns standard Vaporeon
    184 EVs, neutral nature: 210, outruns Agiligross (before Agility)
    236 EVs, neutral nature: 223, outruns standard NP Togekiss
    252 EVs, neutral nature: 227, outruns Timid Fidgit by a point at +1 and all +1 base 87s at +2 (Scarf Hitmonlee lol, but, more importantly, Scarf Rotom-A)
    232 EVs, boosting nature: 244, outruns Jolly Tyranitar
    236 EVs, boosting nature: 245, outruns defensive Zapdos
    252 EVs, boosting nature: 249, outruns all base 120s at +1 and all +1 base 100s at +2


    Defenses (120/90/80): These are still quite solid and can be EV'd to act as a bulkier Swampert. Here are some sample calcs to give you an idea of what I'm talking about (MixPert and 252 HP/192 Def/ 64 SpD Bold Pyroak):

    Lead Azelf Psychic:
    Swampert - 38.9% - 46%
    Pyroak - 36% - 42.6%

    Lead Azelf Explosion:
    Swampert - 82.9% - 97.8%
    Pyroak - 79.7% - 93.9%

    Aside from the fact that Pyroak is guaranteed to OHKO Swampert with Wood Hammer/Grass Knot, it has good typing and stats here to match it up against many common leads:
    Show Hide
    Aerodactyl's Rock Slide: 39.2% - 46.4% (Wood Hammer 2HKOs)
    252 SpA/252 Spe Timid Starime's Hydro Pump: 53.4% - 63.1% (Wood Hammer OHKOs)
    LeadApe Close Combat: 26.4% - 31.1%
    LeadApe Fire Blast: 41.9% - 49.5% (0% w/ Flash Fire; Earth Power 2HKOs)
    Heatran Fire Blast: 49.1% - 58.1% (0% w/ Flash Fire; Earth Power 2HKOs through Shuca)
    Scarf Kitsunoh U-turn: 11.7% - 14%
    Scarf Kitsunoh Shadowstrike: 20.5% - 24.3% (Fire Blast OHKOs)
    Same Pyroak Fire Blast: 31.1% - 36.5%


    So, that's lead Pyroak. Imagine these defensive numbers on a SubSeeding variant, which are impressive enough imo to be useful.

    That's it!
  9. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Because I this stat spread a whole lot, I decided to do damage calculation based around it.

    Offensive: 105 base Atk, max Atk EVs Jolly, +1 Life Orb Pyroak running DD/Stone Edge/Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz

    Show Hide

    Stone Edge
    ---------------
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Latias: 66.1% - 78.1% (2HKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Salamence (Intimidate factored in): 88.82% - 105.14% (OHKO with SR, 66.67% w/o SR)
    252 HP/180 Def Jolly Salamence (Intimidate factored in): 60.4% - 71.6% (2HKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Heatran: 53.9% - 63.5% (2HKO)
    0 HP/4 Def Jolly Gyarados: (Intimidate factored in): 89.4% - 105.7%
    (OHKO with SR, 66.67% w/o SR)
    156 HP/96 Def Adamant Gyarados (Intimidate factored in): 71.9% - 84.9% (OHKO with SR, 74.36% w/o SR)
    252 HP/252 Def Impish Gyarados (Intimidate factored in): 52.3% - 61.9% (2HKO with SR)
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Cyclohm: 44.3% - 52.4% (2HKO with SR)
    180 HP/212 Def Bold Cyclohm: 32.3% - 38.1% (not even a 2HKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Infernape: 82.9% - 97.6% (66.67% OHKO with SR)
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Zapdos: >100% (OHKO)
    248 HP/228 Def Bold Zapdos: 77.8% - 91.9% (OHKO with SR)
    0 HP/0 Def Rash Dragonite: >100% (OHKO)
    224 HP/0 Def Adamant Dragonite: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/0 Def Modest Togekiss: >100% (OHKO)
    0 HP/4 Def Modest Togekiss: >100% (OHKO)

    Wood Hammer
    ---------------
    Every variant of Colossoil: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Tyranitar: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Stratagem: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/220 Def Adamant Arghonaut (Unaware factored in): 88.9% - 104.8% (28,21% OHKO with SR)
    Every variant of Swampert: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Starmie: >100% (100% OHKO)
    Every variant of Suicune: >100% (OHKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Jolly Flygon: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/180 Def Timid Flygon: 88.5% - 104.1% (58.97% OHKO with SR)
    Every variant of Dugtrio: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Vaporeon: >100% (OHKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naughty Kingdra: >100% (OHKO)
    180 HP/0 Def Adamant Kingdra: >100% (OHKO)
    12 HP/12 Def Modest Empoleon: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/0 Def Adamant Empoleon: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/160 Def Calm Empoleon: 83.1% - 97.8% (2HKO)
    252 HP/120 Def Calm Tentacruel: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Hippowdon: >100% (OHKO)

    Flare Blitz
    ----------
    252 HP/4 Def Timid Fidgit: 77.7% - 91.4% (2HKO)
    252 HP/252 Def Bold Fidgit: 56.6% - 67% (2HKO)
    Every variant of Metagross: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/168 Def Bold Rotom-A: 87.2% - 103% (OHKO with SR)
    Every variant of Kitsunoh: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Scizor: >100% (OHKO)
    0 HP/252 Def Calm Blissey: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Jirachi: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Skarmory: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Celebi: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/ 40 Def Careful Revenankh (using revised stats): 87.5% - 103.3% (OHKO with SR)
    252 HP/252 Def Impish Revenankh (using revised stats): 65.1% - 76.5% (2HKO)
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Gengar: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/40 Def Impish Gliscor: 67.2% - 79.7% (2HKO)
    0 HP/4 Def Jolly Gliscor: 93.1% - 109.6% (OHKO with SR)
    Every variant of Magnezone: >100% (OHKO)
    0 HP/0 Def Naive Azelf: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Lucario: >100% (OHKO)
    252 HP/0 Def Adamant Machamp: >100% (OHKO)
    Every non-Heatproof variant of Bronzong: >100% (OHKO)
    252HP/ 252 Def Heatproof Impish Bronzong: 63.9% - 75.1% (2HKO)
    Every variant of Syclant (using revised stats): >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Forretress: >100% (OHKO)
    0 HP/4 Def Timid Jolteon: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Roserade: >100% (OHKO)
    Every variant of Breloom: >100% (OHKO)
  10. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    The poll came down to an exactly 50 / 50 split, leaving me with the tiebreaking vote. I've mulled over it for almost an hour now, and I've decided that Pyroak's new ability over Battle Armour will be Flash Fire.

    This is obviously controversial, so let me explain my thought process. While I really don't believe that Poison Heal would be overpowered, I do see it as a little bit less interesting than Flash Fire. Poison Heal Pyroak would be almost a carbon copy of Breloom (the higher defensive stats I presume to be balanced by the awful typing, including a Stealth Rock weakness compared to Breloom's Rock resistance). However, there currently is no Pokemon in OU with both a boosting ability like Flash Fire and a good boosting move like Dragon Dance, which it seems very likely that Pyroak is going to receive. I'm entirely curious as to just how viable Flash Fire is on a Dragon Dance set, and especially whether players are willing to take 1/3 recoil damage in exchange for that potential boost.

    The movepool poll is up.
  11. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    I thought that the proper procedure in a tie was to choose the option that won the first poll? Hence Poison Heal, unless I counted heads wrongly. Or if the CRC works differently to regular polls.

    Not that I'm complaining here, Flash Fire is a good choice regardless.
  12. TekkenStorm

    TekkenStorm

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    From what I got, the poll didn't actually end in a tie, Umbreon Dan had yet to vote. It was in a Tie before the last vote was made.
  13. AlphaBravo

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    Yes I am submitting a stat spread.

    It has the following goals
    1) Outspeed Tyranitar.
    2) Take advantage of its offensive abilities without going crazy on offense.
    3) Still have good defenses
    4) Have relatively low HP so subseeding restores more then 8% every turn.

    The "Subseeding needs high HP", along with the "Pokemon with a high HP/Defences ratio are more vulnerable to %Damages then pokemon with a lower ratio" myths need to be busted.

    Because X-Act seemingly forgot about them, let me elaborate:
    Show Hide

    1) As X-Act said in several of his threads, attacks deal damage with O(HP*DEF).
    2) At level 100 with 31 IVs and Neutral nature, HP is 141+2BASE+EV/4 while defences are 36+2BASE+EV/4.
    3) If we increase the HP base by a amount X, the total defence is altered by about (a bit of math):
    * (141+2B+E/4+2X)/(141+2B+E/4) =
    * (141+2B+E/4)/(26+2B+E/4)+2X/(141+2B+E/4) =
    = 1+2X/(141+2B+E/4)
    Or, in percent, 200*inc/(141+2B+E/4)%
    Example:
    Old HP Stat: 100, 0 EV (Final: 341)
    New HP Stat: 105, 0 EV (Final: 351)
    Defense Inc.: +~3%
    200*5/(141+200+0/4)=1000/341=~3%
    If we increased the defence stat instead, we would've needed to swap the HP constant (141) with the DEF constant (36), resulting in a larger ~4.2% increase. This is balanced by the fact that HP increases defence in both sides.

    In practice, there are slight variations because of the +2 part of the damage formula and integer divisions. But in level 100 combat it's insignificant unless you need to reach a "theorymon-y" value and can't waste even 4 more EVs.
    4) Non-attacking moves (typically) deal/heal a percent of the Pok'emon max HP. Burn kills both a Level 5 0IV/0EV*6 Magikarp and a Level 100 252HP/252DEF Bold Blissey (which isn't so useful in DP, but put as the "strongest defensive pokemon") in 9 turns (as long they don't heal, take damage, or start with <100% HP), dealing some 12.5% damage every turn.
    5) If a high-HP, low-DEF and a low-HP, high-DEF with a same HP*DEF Pokemon take 12.5% damage from Stealth Rock and 10% damage from Life Orb and are hit with the same Salamence's Life Orbed Outrage, they would survive it with the same HP%. One may have 405 DEF and 291 HP while the other may have 405 HP and 291 DEF, yet they both end the round with about 9.46-19.77% HP (because of the +2 part and some rounding, the high HP guy takes less then .2% more damage then the high DEF guy, but even .2% is typically less then 1 HP)

    405 Atk vs 405 Def & 291 HP (120 Base Power): 168 - 198 (57.73% - 68.04%)
    405 Atk vs 291 Def & 405 HP (120 Base Power): 234 - 276 (57.78% - 68.15%)

    So I guess it's Q.E.D 2 even before Q.E.D 1

    6) Leech Seed however, is an exception. Every turn, Leech Seed inflicts 12.5% damage to the opponent, and drains THAT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE to you.

    Let's assume Groovy the Level 46 HP IV and EVless Timid 31IV+252EV Grovyle meets Nooby the Level 100 Max HP/Max DEF Bold 31*6IV after a Explosion.
    Nooby sees the 102 HP Grovyle and happily Seismic Tosses it to 2 HP. However Grovyle manages to Leech Seed Bliss.

    At the end of turn 1 Blissey loses 89 of its HP, giving them to Groovy for 91 HP. Because Groovy also has Big Root, his HP rises to his max, 102.

    Nooby, which has Thunder Wave/Seismic Toss/Wish/Protect for moves, tries to Thunder Wave Groovy, Paralyzing the creature. However, this is no help for Nooby, who gets Toxiced by Groovy.

    Nooby tries to Seismic Toss the Grovyle that always heals the damage (The noob who used her does not know he can switch) until Toxic allows Groovy the level 46 Grovyle to kill the semi-legendary fat egg.

    Yea, the low HP Grovyle healed from 2% HP to 90% (and then to 100%) using Leech Seed. What can be learned from this tale (which is a myth. If this inspires you make a Stallrein-like Grovyle for your team, no need to credit me). I think the Respawning Grovyle is a double Q.E.D for busting the second myth.


    90/90/120/90/100/65
    PS: 110: Rank 4 - Above Average, 130% of Pyroak[​IMG]s
    PT: 193: Rank 7 - Excellent, Skarm+ at 93.6% of Pyroak[​IMG]s
    SS: 113: Rank 4 - Above Average, about Pyroak[​IMG]s because of the +5 Spe -5 SpA
    ST: 160: Rank 6 - Very Good, 91.4% of Pyroak[​IMG]s. To allow for acceptable attacks the defenses must suffer.
    ODB: -12.06 - Biased towards Defense
    PSB: 3.11 - Slightly Biased towards Physical
    OSR: 313: Rank 6 - Very Good
    BST: 555 (Pretty much the lowest BST in this thread)

    For comparability, Swampert has PS/PT/SS/ST of 123/157/103/155

    Offenses (90/90/65): Not giving Pyroak a big boost to attack to prevent Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz ownage. At the end lowered SpA by 5 but I can lower a defence by 5 and return SpA to 95. Fire Blast still OHKOs Skarmory with SR.

    Offensive Calcs (252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Naive/Hasty and running DD/Wood Hammer/Stone Edge/Fire Blast):
    Show Hide

    +1 Wood Hammer
    Lead Aerodactyl: 104.30% - 123.18% OHKO
    Recover Tank Arghonaut (252/220~ve): 89.86% - 106.28% 40% OHKO, 75% with SR/SS
    Max Defense+ve Arghonaut: 406 Atk vs 317 Def & 414 HP (120 Base Power): 332 - 392 (80.19% - 94.69%) OHKO Max Damage with SR, 41% with SR and SS
    NP Azelf: 101.71% - 120.21% OHKO
    WishBliss: 67.43% - 79.42% 2HKO, With LO Becomes 87.56% - 103.23% OHKO with SR, 50-50 with SS
    NoobBliss (252HP/252DEF+ve): 56.30% - 66.39% 2HKO. 33% OHKO with LO, SR and SS
    Tank Dusknoir: 44.90% - 53.06% 82% 2HKO with SR, 100% with LO or SR+SS
    SubPetaya Empoleon: 78.21% - 92.31% 2HKO. OHKO with LO.
    252 HP Fidgit: 52.03% - 61.68%. 2HKO with SR (97% w/o).
    Lead Hippowdon: 72.86% - 85.71% 2HKO. 94.29% - 111.43% OHKO with SR, 66% w/o
    SubDance Kingdra: 79.45% - 93.84% 40% OHKO with SR, 87% with SR and SS, 100% with LO.
    RestTalk Machamp: 69.53% - 82.03% 2HKO; 40% OHKO with LO, 80% with LO and SR
    Specs/Scarf Porygon-Z: 95.19% - 112.50% 66% OHKO, 100% with SR or SS
    Scarf Rotom-A: 86.78% - 102.07%; 87% OHKO with SR, 7% w/o
    252/168 Bold Rotom-A: 53.62% - 63.49% 2HKO
    Curselax: 60.8% - 71.8% 53.08% - 62.62% 2HKO w/o Curse. LO 69.18% - 81.31% 2HKO even w' Curse
    Crocune: 71.78% - 85.15% 2HKO; LO 93.56% - 110.40% OHKO with SR, 58% Without
    Tentacruel: 73.35% - 86.54% 2HKO; LO 87.91% - 103.85% OHKO with SR, 20% without
    Vaporeon: 97.77% - 115.18% OHKO with SR, 80% w'o.

    +1 Stone Edge
    LO Cyclohm: 44.82% - 52.94% 2HKO with SS+
    MixNite: 79.88% - 94.12% OHKO with LO/SR
    Gengar: 71.26% - 83.91% 2HKO, LO 92.34% - 108.81% OHKO with SR, 50% without
    BulkyGyara (Intimidate): 46.35% - 54.69% 2HKO with SR, LO 59.90% - 70.83%
    OffensiveGyara (Intimidate): 61.03% - 71.90% 50% OHKO with SR+LO recoil, LO 78.55% - 93.05% OHKO with SR.
    NP MixApe: 55.97% - 65.87% 2HKO, LO 72.35% - 85.32% 50% OHKO with SR+LO Recoil
    Heatran: 36.53% - 43.03% 3HKO, LO 47.37% - 55.73% 2HKO with SR, 75% Without
    Defensive CM Latias: 40.54% - 47.75% 2HKO with SR and SS. LO 52.55% - 61.86% 2HKO
    Scarf Latias: 44.85% - 52.82% 2HKO with SS+, 20% without
    -SpA/SDef DD/MixMence (Intimidate): 60.42% - 71.30% 50% OHKO with SR and LO Recoil, LO 78.55% - 92.45% OHKO with SR
    -DEF DD/MixMence (Intimidate): 66.47% - 78.55% 20% OHKO with SR, 100% with LO Recoil or SR+LO
    NP Togekiss:68.98% - 81.28% 45% OHKO with SR, LO 89.30% - 105.35% 100% OHKO with SR, 33 w/o
    Defensive Zapdos: 53.26% - 62.66% 2HKO, LO 68.93% - 81.46% 45% OHKO with SR
    SubRoost Zapdos: 73.63% - 87.21% 87% OHKO with SR; LO 96.08% - 113.32% OHKO with SR, 75% w'o

    Fire Blast
    SubPunch Breloom: 109.89% - 129.67% OHKO
    Standard Wall Bronzong: 52.07% - 62.13% 2HKO
    Defensive Celebi: 58.42% - 69.80% 2HKO, LO 76.24% - 90.59% 20% OHKO with SR
    LO Celebi: 67.24% - 80.34% 2HKO, LO: 87.75% - 104.27% OHKO with SR, 20% without
    Scarf Heracross: 82.39% - 97.67% 66% OHKO with SR, OHKO with LO
    Steel Killer Magnezone: 79.63% - 94.44% 2HKO, OHKO with LO
    Agiligross: 78.42% - 93.01% 2HKO, OHKO with LO
    Physical Mamoswine: 98.61% - 116.90% OHKO with SR, 98% without
    Lead Roserade: 87.02% - 103.05% 15% OHKO, OHKO with SR
    Standard Skarmory: 95.21% - 111.98% OHKO with SR, 66% without
    SpD Skarmory: 64.67% - 76.05% 2HKO, LO 83.23% - 98.80% 66% OHKO with SR

    I found out that Flare Blitz deals more damage then Fire Blast while DDed to all but Standard Skarm (who still takes 77.84% - 92.22% without LO) and to Breloom, Bronzong, LOCelebi, ScarfCross, Magnezone, Mamoswine, and Leadrose and SpD Skarm without a DD. So if Defensive Celebi (who isn't OHKOed without a DD), Agiligross (who is OHKOed only 50% of the time with LO or 75% with LO+SR vs. the 85% of Fire Blast), and Skarmory (who still 2HKOed before a DD and takes a hard 77.84% - 92.22% With DD only)


    In terms of Speed, 65 is a round number that outspeeds T-Tar
    Some Speed Numbers:
    Show Hide
    0 EVs, neutral nature: 166
    52 EVs, neutral nature: 179, outruns CB/Old Lead Metagross
    60 EVs, neutral nature: 181, outruns standard Skarmory
    64 EVs, neutral nature: 182, outruns standard CBTar
    72 EVs, neutral nature: 184, outruns standard Vaporeon
    176 EVs, neutral nature: 210, outruns Agiligross (before Agility)
    228 EVs, neutral nature: 223, outruns standard NP Togekiss
    244 EVs, neutral nature: 227, outruns Timid Fidgit by a point at +1 and all +1 base 87s at +2 (Scarf Hitmonlee lol, but, more importantly, Scarf Rotom-A)
    224 EVs, boosting nature: 244, outruns Jolly Tyranitar
    228 EVs, boosting nature: 245, outruns defensive Zapdos
    244 EVs, boosting nature: 249, outruns all base 120s at +1 and all +1 base 100s at +2


    Defenses (90/120/100): Pretty good; Calcs later
  14. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,202
    Out of 20 voters, the tally:

    Code:
    Dragon Dance   18
    Earthquake     18
    Leaf Blade     15
    Rock Slide     15
    Stone Edge     14
    Double-Edge    14
    Dragon Claw    13
    Sleep Powder   12
    Stun Spore     12
    Dragon Pulse   11
    ---------------- cutoff
    Bulk Up         6
    Rock Polish     5
    Swords Dance    4
    Which means the following moves will be added to Pyroak's movepool (plus the tutor moves!!):

    New poll!
  15. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,202
    Fuzznip's spread won by a clear margin: 117 HP / 105 Atk / 102 Def / 80 SpA / 96 SDef / 70 Spe.

    Meet the new and improved Pyroak:
    [​IMG]
    Rock Head / Flash Fire
    117 HP / 105 Atk / 102 Def / 80 SpA / 96 SDef / 70 Spe
    with the following moves added (as well as the tutor moves etc.):
  16. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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