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DPP OU Revolutionizing the metagame in late 2007 (and rising (lol))

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Aldaron, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    UPDATED October 7, 2009.

    K, I deleted this team because I simply didn't want to update it with the real, completely competitively viable version I used about a month after posting this (It replaced Hitmontop with Choice Scarf Infernape and Life Orb Heatran with Life Orb Salamence).

    But, I was sifting through my files on my old computer and found an updated version I had planned on posting before getting lazy and just deleting this lol. Note, I'm editing stuff in now based solely on memory, so some things could possibly seem anachronistic due to changes from DP -> DPP and now DPPHGSS. So remember that this team was meant SOLELY for DP; it wasn't meant for DPP or Garchomp-less at all (Note the HP Ice on Gengar AND Infernape).

    Surprisingly, I actually tried out this version of the team with Choice Scarf Rotom-h with Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Will-O-Wisp, and Trick in place of Gengar on standard ladder and went 8 for 8 lol. Of course, the battles weren't particularly challenging, as the hardest was simply an average player using a standard good team, so I was able to outbattle them all, not necessarily out team them all.

    I was talking to MoP recently and we both noted how incredibly boring "good" rmts had become. Just standard teams with 1 or 2 changes, boring explanations, and incredibly banal (and bordering on arrogant) threat lists. I decided that I would judge an rmt's quality based not only on how well it did competitively, but also its effect on the metagame. Did it change how people view the game? Did it change how people play the game? Did it change Pokemon usage? Did it introduce a significant new competitive strategy?

    That's partly why I'm undeleting this team, to show what it introduced into the metagame circa late November 2007 to early February 2008, and what lasting effects it has had on the metagame even up until now. I think these are the rmts that really should be shown, not the ones that use a bog standard team to get to #1 on the ladder.

    Anyway, around the time I built this team, copies of Obi-stall were running all over ladder. Stall in general was being utilized non stop and the game was becoming EXTRAORDINARILY slow. I wish I could describe just how much stall was on the ladder, but I'm not sure I could without approaching the realm of hyperbole. So Obi stall with its Hippowdon, Blissey, Skarmory and Celebi was all over the place, and I thought..."how do I beat this." Also, you had to deal with the standard offensive stuff at that time, like Mix Infernape, offensive Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Starmie.

    The answer, over a long period of time (including after posting the initial version of the team), came pretty simply: Toxic Spikes and Life Orb Salamence give Stall trouble, and Stealth Rock and 2 (at the time) "surprise" Choice Scarfers in Gengar and Infernape would help keep offense in check.

    So, here is the initial version of the team (with some explanation edits)
    Code:
    [IMG]http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpffsa/dpffsa407.png[/IMG]
    [B]Roserade[/B]@Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, - Atk)
    - Leaf Storm
    - HP Fire / HP Ground / HP Ice
    - Sleep Powder / Grasswhistle
    - Toxic Spikes / Spikes
     
    Top ten leads are Gyarados, Hippowdon, Salamence, Gengar, Tyranitar, Bronzong, Weavile, Swampert, Infernape and Abomasnow. Roserade sleep powders Gyara, Mence (with 300 Speed), Bronzong, Gengar and Abomasnow. It leaf storms Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Swampert. The only 2 that force a guaranteed switch are Weavile and Infernape. 
     
    But as every seasoned veteran knows, your opponent has the opportunity to switch as well, so this “plan” rarely works. Still, at 300 Speed, Roserade is outspeeding 100 Base pokes, putting them to sleep, and setting up. People always ask me, why have Toxic Spikes on such a fragile poke? I say, does fragility matter if they can’t hit me? Sleep powder nets me one free turn of Toxic Spikes; later, when they bring in their ground/water? Another free turn of Toxic Spikes. Generally, the most common switch in is Blissey, which just makes me happy, especially since it is always first turn. They get put to sleep, which just gives me more opportunities to set up Toxic Spikes. And should they have been patient and switched after the sleep, in comes literally the perfect complement to Roserade, Swampert.
     
    Point of concern here is the spikes vs. toxic spikes argument. 
     
    [IMG]http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa260.png[/IMG]
    [B]Swampert[/B]@leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpDef
    Relaxed nature (+ Def, - SpD)
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Hydro Pump / Surf
     
    I switch Swampert in when the typical Heatran, Blissey, or Weavile come in. Set up Stealth Rock, and see what happens. Blissey toxic me? No problem, I switch to Lucario. Heatran switches to Ludicilo? No problem, I switch back to Roserade. This is a pretty standard MixPert, so I’m sure all of you know how clutch it is. 
     
    My real area of concern is the Hydro pump vs. Surf argument. Now, with 0 attack and 0 special attack evs, I don’t really hit the opponent hard, or even fast for that matter. Swampert is the necessary defensive rock of my team that allows it to work, so I can’t even switch some of those defensive evs over to the offensive stats. Hydro Pump’s average BP is 96, while surf is 95. Hydro pump also has the advantage of simply hitting way harder. Also, I use hydro pump when I predict Skarmory or Forretress switch ins, so I want it to hit harder. 
     
    [IMG]http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa094.png[/IMG]
    [B]Gengar[/B]@choice scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs:  4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+ Spd, - Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - HP Ice
     
    Ahhh, scarf gar. How many times have those 264 gyarados dragon danced and arrogantly fallen to you? What about those scarf chomps? Or those predicted Weaviles? Or the ko’s on scarf cross by not switching out from pursuit? Or even better, blocked rapid spin by Starmie, or come in on a grass knot from Azelf, and proceeded to ko with shadow ball? The results speak for themselves. This gengar is what I like to call a metagame specific pokemon: I developed him solely to counter the major threats. 
     
     
    [IMG]http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa485.png[/IMG]
    [B]Heatran[/B]@life orb/shed shell
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk
    Naïve nature (+ Spd, - SpDef)
    - Fire Blast
    - Taunt/Dragon Pulse/metal sound
    - Explosion
    - Earth Power
     
    Heatran is a monster.  Takes care of Cresselia, hits everything hard, and helps my team immensely. Just as a note for how great the typing arrangements are, here is a common example: First turn, Roserade is facing an Infernape. Infernape uses fire move while I switch to Heatran, and I then switch to Swampert to take the Close Combat and the defense drops. Then, I switch to Gengar to take the grass knot, and ko it with shadow ball. This is not an arbitrary example; happens around 5 times a day. Another example: Roserade is sent out against Gengar. I sleep powder, if I miss or if he uses hypnosis, I switch to Heatran to take a shadow ball, and then switch to Gengar to take the focus blast or thunderbolt. Again, not an arbitrary example. Heatran, Swampert and Gengar give me a myriad of options for dealing with the rare leads that Roserade cannot take care of, which is the beautiful part of this team. I can maintain a consistent offense while simultaneously supporting and taking minimum damage. 
     
    This is also, however, the pokemon that could use the most altering, as I have no narrowed view on what would be the most effective. Fire Blast + life orb helps me ohko Hippowdon, Gliscor, and gives me the great help of potential burn. Taunt is to scare those thunder waving Blissey or Cresselia, or even those Umbreon. And while it has served me a great purpose late game, early game, taunt is kind of worthless, at least with explosion. I think explosion is necessary because it helps me deal with annoying pokes like Cresselia, Togekiss or Suicune. 
     
    The other issue here is the item. Is life orb necessary with taunt? Wouldn’t I prefer leftovers, some people ask? I’ve actually considered shed shell, with the recent influx of Dugtrio. 
     
    [IMG]http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa237.png[/IMG]
    [B]Hitmontop[/B]@life orb
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant nature (+ Atk, -SpAtk)
    - Fake Out 
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Punch
    - Close Combat
     
    Hitmontop?! Technician?! 3 priority moves?! No toxic/Bulk Up?! N00b!!! This has happened way too many times. I just don’t understand it. Fake Out + mach punch is a guaranteed 60 BP flinching move off of 317 attack and life orb, followed by Mach punch, 90 BP, or Bullet Punch, 60 BP. That is a lot of damage, guaranteed. With Stealth rocks, two Bullet Punches ko Gengar, btw. Again, I’d like to emphasize that on non counters, this is a guaranteed 50% minimum damage. Guaranteed, 50%, minimum. Run that through your mind. Note that spikes and stealth rocks are added guaranteed damage. Note that I have a team to give tougher pokes residual damage. 
     
    There have been various times where I have been down 4 to 1, and Hitmontop can come in to save the day. Obviously I am not doing much to Gliscor, Cresselia, Starmie, Gyarados etc. That isn’t his point. He is solely late game, and solely to wreak annoying priority havoc. 
     
     
    [B][IMG]http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa448.png[/IMG][/B]
    [B]Lucario[/B]@life orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+ Atk, - SpAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Bullet Punch / Crunch / Stone Edge
    - Extreme Speed
     
    Now, here is the interesting slot. I was thinking about using this for my next team, but a conversation with Tenchi suddenly made me think…why not use it now? This hits sooo hard. On max HP/max defense + impish Skarm, swords dance + close combat does 85%-100%; on Hippowdon, 76%- 90%. What does this mean? If I get stealth rock and one layer of toxic spikes down, I am taking out the physical tank.  If this doesn't run Bullet Punch, this has trouble with Aerodactyl, Gengar and Mismagius. If this doesn't run Stone Edge, this has trouble with Zapdos, Gyarados, and Salamence.  If this doesn't run Crunch, this has trouble with Celebi, Cresselia, and Dusknoir.  I choose Bullet Punch because Extremespeed still hits all of the Stealth Rock weak Pokemon that Stone Edge takes care of pretty hard and because Celebi is less of a threat than Gengar and Aerodactyl, especially to the team.
     
     
    [B]Ok, so that’s my team. Let’s take a step back and view it in a very general sense. I setup up toxic spikes/stealth rock, and hurt the opponent hard and fast, while still being able to switch effectively. That is the purpose of the team. [/B]
     
    It also utilizes the element of surprise, and effectively at that. No one expects, currently, a vicious little Hitmontop, or a scarf gar. If, late game, I have Hitmontop and Gengar alive together, it is usually a guaranteed win. Additionally, the main physical counter to this team, Gliscor, is taken care of 4 ways with Roserade, Swampert, Heatran and Gengar. Special counters are a joke, as they will just allow Lucario to set up. 
     
     
    The main pokes that annoy me are bulky Zapdos, a really lucky Togekiss, reflect Cresselia, Gliscor and Gardevoir. Those five are the main issues. Otherwise, I can pretty much take care of everything on the standard threat list without too much trouble. Even for those five, besides the really specific Gardevoir, Heatran + Lucario + stealth rocks and spikes are clutch, so it isn’t too big an issue. 
     
    Alright well, that should be it for now. Note that even with the slight confusion at some parts, such as the placing of evs or Heatran’s moveset, this team is set for now with what I have. So while you are encouraged to critique and offer possible replacements for Lucario and if absolutely necessary, Swampert, I also encourage you to comment or ask for clarification on certain parts. I tried to put a lesser emphasis on damage calculations, but I can do them per request.
     
    Also, I would like to just briefly state what caused me to make this team. It was the influx of stall, and my hatred of boring, drawn out battles. I designed this to counter stall extremely well, while still play other teams as well as possible. But stall is my number one enemy, lol.
    I'd also like to add that a lot of good players commented that this was a gimmick team due to hitmontop. I acknowledge that; hitmontop definitely was only on there because I love it and wanted to use it lol. Still, you'd be surprised how many of these "haters" lost to THAT version of this team (not the updated, better version, but the hitmontop version). I also have (and should get the rest hopefully soon :P) logs to prove this >;)

    So that was the initial version of the team. Here is the "improved" version of the team I was planning on posting a few months later. I also deleted most of the explanations and added my thoughts based on hindsight (mostly to prevent repetition from above):

    [​IMG]
    Roserade@Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, - Atk)
    - Grass Knot
    - HP Fire
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes

    I ended up sticking with Hidden Power Fire as the main move, to deter stall (Skarmory / Forretress primarily) from setting up after allowing a Pokemon to absorb sleep. I also settled on Sleep Powder + Toxic Spikes over Grass Whistle + Spikes because Sleep Powder's accuracy was much more appealing and 1 layer of Toxic Spikes is just a little worse than 1 later of Spikes for the initial switch in.

    [​IMG]
    Swampert@leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpDef
    Relaxed nature (+ Def, - SpD)
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Hydro Pump

    I stuck with Hydro Pump to help me deal more damage to Skarmory again (note the beat stall pattern lol). The EVs help me survive a +2 Outrage from neutral attack nature Garchomp and 2 Life Orb Shadow Balls from Gengar, even after Stealth Rock damage.

    [​IMG]
    Gengar@choice scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+ Spd, - Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - HP Ice

    Note the Hidden Power Ice lol. Garchomp was _that_ much of an issue. Also helped against Dragon Dancing Salamence, I guess, but before Platinum they weren't too much of an issue.

    [​IMG]
    Lucario@life orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+ Atk, - SpAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Bullet Punch
    - Extreme Speed

    The main point of this team. Note that while I generally advocate Crunch as the main move for Lucario, on this team I settled on Bullet Punch to help me deal with Aerodactyl and Gengar, both of whom annoy me more than Celebi (or Cresselia / Dusknoir).

    [​IMG]
    Infernape@Choice Scarf
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 156 Atk / 232 Spd / 120 SpAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SpDef)
    - Close Combat
    - Fire Blast
    - ThunderPunch
    - Hidden Power Ice

    Hidden Power Ice again, lol. Damn, Garchomp must have been a bitch. This reaches 341 Speed without the Scarf, to allow me to outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Dugtrio and Dragon Dancing Salamence / Gyarados and all Choice Scarf Garchomp. The Special Attack reaches 274, or enough to ohko 4 hp / 0 spdef Garchomp after SR + 1 Toxic Spike turn damage on average. Rest are put into attack so I can deal more damage with Close Combat. In Platinum I would probably dumb ThunderPunch for U-turn and Hidden Power Ice for Stone Edge (as I have for Choice Scarf Infernape on my other teams).

    [​IMG]
    Salamence@Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 76 Atk / 180 Spd / 252 SpAtk
    Rash nature (+SpAtk, - SpDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Brick Break
    - Roost

    Woooo! Have loved this set since the beginning of DP, and love it now in HG / SS. Classic Mixmence, my second favorite Salamence set (after bulky DD Roost :P). This team needs something to help deal with general stall, and there isn't much of a better pokemon than Classic MixMence to do that lol. I didn't have an explanation in my word document, so my best guess regarding the EVs is that I reach 280 speed to get Heatran and Lucario, max Special Attack and dump the rest into Attack.

    (You'll notice a significant psychic weakness that...means nothing lol. For a team like this it is important to have typing advantages, but against Psychic it is irrelevant)

    SO, back to the original point about RMTs and their effects on the metagame. I give this team and myself credit for 3 significant changes to the metagame around that late november 2007 - early february 2008 time period:

    1.) Introducing / Making Swords Dance Lucario popular.

    At that time, everyone was getting on my ass for Swords Dance Lucario (including Smogon badged members, lol). The statement "Choice Specs Lucario is better" was thrown at me so often that I laughed every time it swept. Some people may have tried out bulky version of SD Luke or even variations of that, but no one used it consistently or made an effort to popularize it.

    2.) Introducing / Making non Choice Scarf Lead Roserade popular.

    People constantly asked, "why Toxic Spikes (or spikes initially) on such a frail Pokemon?" I don't think people ask that anymore. I actually give credit to MoP for giving me the initial idea of Roserade. He ran a Choice Scarf Roserade lead on one of his best DP offensive teams, and I figured I would give her a try because I needed entry hazards. Worked out in the end =)

    3.) Removing the idea that super fast Pokemon were "wasted" with Choice Scarf.

    Boy was this a popular one. Apparently it was a waste to Choice Scarf Gengar and Infernape and give them Speed boosting natures at that. Note that Choice Scarf Alakazam and Weavile were scene, but both were neutral Speed nature and also thought of as gimmicks. But people eventually came to realize that giving Choice Scarf to speedy Pokemon with great coverage moves allowed them to generalize purpose on their teams, instead of become too specific and lose to random threats. Choice Scarf Gengar and Infernape help become general checks against offense, helping me not against only Garchomp, Salamence, and Gyarados, but also Agility Empoleon / Metagross, Kabutops in rain, and Choice Specs Jolteon.

    So, instead of bragging about how well this did on ladder (as I initially did lol), I'd rather mention the lasting effects this team had on the metagame. Swords Dance Lucario is one of the most popular offensive options right now, and various good players can attest to the utility of Lead Roserade. People now also extremely liberal with Choice Scarf and Choice Scarf +nature Gengar is semi popular.

    There it is, the second most popular (in terms of views) at the time RMT of the DP generation =)

    Enjoy.

    (note all commentary in this thread is for the hitmontop / heatran version of the team that was posted in 2007)
  2. Phoenix_21

    Phoenix_21

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    128
    Very good looking team, innovative and great synergy, i have one or two small questions though.

    TTar is well covered in general by swampert, but what if they switch Choice Band Tar into a nve move from Gengar? i mean you mention in your threat list multiple times that Gengar is shadow balling things into oblivion, but if Tyranitar comes in on that you pretty much have to lose Gengar to pursuit, right?

    Also, the team is dependant on switching around to your resists that complement each other so well, but if someone cottons on they could start overpredicting - if someone using a life-orbed mix Salamence or chain chomp used Draco Meteor on Heatran predicting that you would go to Gengar or Pert for example, you could be one poke down and the synergy of the team would suffer.

    Like i said, not major points i'd just be interested to hear your thoughts.
  3. Evisu

    Evisu

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    Great another team for noobs to rip off.....

    Go with Hydro Pump on pert if you miss unless they have Grass Knot you will be able to take the hit.
    Also on Heatran Dragon Pulse and Metal Sound are much better options than taunt.
  4. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Yep, Phoenix, you've hit my team's weakness right on. Prediction, aka, skill, is what will destroy the synergy of the team, and possibly cause a loss.

    I'll tell you what though, if I lose to the two examples you pointed out, which are great ones btw, due to out-prediction, I lost because I deserved to lose, not because of a weakness to the team. Those are losses I happily accept.

    I also built the team around that factor of losing due to the skill of my opponent, and not his team. An offensive team based on switching is exactly that type of team.

    As your cb Tar, let me think. I would probably switch Lucario or Swampert in, and depending on the attack/damage, I would work from there. If I happen to lose to pursuit, well, that's a risk I run by putting scarf on Gengar, and there is nothing to do there.
  5. Notty

    Notty

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
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    I've personally fought this team about a hundred bajillion times, due to the fact that Alda's always on when I am.

    I will say that I don't think you're quite as prepared against Heracross as you think you are.

    Only Gengar can really switch in on Heracross. Roserade, Swampert, and Hitmontop are all 2HKO by CB Close Combat. Heatran and Lucario are easy 1HKOs.

    If you lose Gar, then Heracross can rather easily plow through the rest of your team. Lucario and Hitmontop's priority attacks help, but I don't know how well they'd fare if Heracross was paired with, say, Gliscor.
  6. astrohawke

    astrohawke

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
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    587
    I think blissey and heracross hurt this team a lot more than you give them credit for.

    Blissey isn't threatened at all by roserade. Yes you can put it to sleep and then start setting up spikes but spikes can be spun away later. I know gengar can be an antispinner but I'll address that later. Unless you get some freakish long sleeps, it can wake up and seismic toss/ice beam and put a serious dent into roserade. It also doesn't change the fact that blissey walls roserade and you can do nothing but switch if spikes is already out.

    Gengar obviously does not touch blissey. Taunt heatran also is shaky against a blissey. You can taunt to stop it from using softboiled pretty much but fire blast is a 4hko at best and that's only if you get on the high end of the damage spectrum and don't miss on any of them. Meanwhile it can 3hko you with seismic toss. You've got explosion obviously but I get the feeling that you'd rather not sacrifice heatran to kill blissey while you've still got hitmontop and lucario in play. So that's another pokemon to be switching out against blissey.

    So that's more than just 1/6 pokemon that are stopped by blissey. I mention this because blissey can easily come in on these pokemon and then just seismic toss the switch in and slowly wear you down.

    You also fail to address the heracross threat adequately in my opinion. In the threat list you don't mention any specific ways to counter it other than to say that your pokemon can "take care of it". I'm curious as to which pokemon handle it and in what way? Because at a glance, close combat hits 5/6 of your pokemon hard when they try to switch in on it and they have no way to recover the damage. Gengar is obviously immune but still is hurt by a predicted stone edge/night slash. I won't go into prediction, however, seeing as that's uncertain ground. But with only 1 rather fragile pokemon being able to switch into 1 of its main moves, it leaves pretty much no room for error when it comes to switching into heracross. I would have to say you should add more than just a "my pokemon can take care of it" to the threat so I can get a clearer idea of how you actually take care of heracross.

    On the topic of gengar, I feel that being a scarfer, it is made to handle a lot of the threats that your team would otherwise be unable to handle. It's something that is probably protected a lot of the time as its death could cause a lot of your team to fall apart. 2 of its roles I've mentioned above as antispinner and heracross switch in. So my question is, how does your team do after it is killed by pursuit?

    If your opponent has a weavile or ttar with pursuit, its death is almost unavoidable. If you don't know they have them, you can't really predict and use focus blast so they can come in fairly easily.
  7. Maniaclyrasist

    Maniaclyrasist custom user title of doom!!!
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    With Roserade I see no reason not to run max speed, some speed natured base 90s will out speed you with your current EV spread, whereas if you just max it then you still have a chance to speed race them to determine who goes first.
    Also i'd like to say i personally dont like Leaf Storm on Roserade, all of the pokemon you meantioned that you can hit with it are hit from Grass Knot with 120 Base Power which also gives you the option of attacking again due to no Special Attack drop. And as for your last slot i'd go with Toxic Spikes as in comparison with normal Spikes they take a shorter time to set up and can have a more devastating effect with just one layer down.

    As for Swampert, i'd rather go with Surf for the sheer fact that i hate to miss attacks in a possibly dire situation. Those Special Defence Evs you have can possibly be shifted to Special Attck if you still want Surf to do a bit more damage.

    For Gengar i'd simply just use Modest, not much pokemon that fast are going to be using Scarf so i'd say your pretty safe going with a Special Attacking nature.

    I can see your team having Gyarados issues, so i'll say in that slot that you have Taunt on Heatran i'd replace it for Hp Electric as it will nearly OHKO Gyarados and gives you some better coverage against Water types like Starmie. Leftovers would also be my item of choice here.

    Personally i like Hitmontop but i think this set leaves something to be desired, its a decent attacker but in terms of your moveset i'd simply rather go with Stone Edge over Bullet Punch, the low Base Power honestly isnt worth it when your just hitting Gengar. Stone Edge will nearly ohko Gengar as well as give you coverage against Gyarados and Salamence.


    Lucario is probaly ok but with the popularity of Cresselia and Dusknoir i'd simply rather have Crunch over one of your priorety attacks, Extremespeed hits harder than Bullet Punch but Bullet Punch after the Swords Dance does get the OHKO on gengar so i'd actually probaly replace Extremespeed for Crunch. It will also hit Gliscor for the same Base Power as Extremespeed and also has the chance for the defense drop.
  8. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Yep, I addressed the CB cross problem at the end of my first post in the edit. I actually ran Gyarados just for that, but I found that sacrificing a poke to CB Cross was easy enough, especially since whatever it comes in against can hit it hard enough for me to take care of it after my poke dies.

    CB Cross reaches 269 speed, meaning Roserade and Heatran can take care of themselves if they have to.

    But yea, I concur, CB Cross + Gliscor when Gar is dead is kind of a problem :(

    EDIT: And thank you Astrohawke and Maniaclyrasist for pointing out specific problems and explaining them in depth, that's what I'm looking for. Also, thanks to Maniaclyrasist for actual suggestions on how to improve.
  9. Steinhauser

    Steinhauser

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    How would you deal with Trick Room? The priority moves you have won't do much damage to Zong, Noir or Slowbro/king, the common TRers I've seen. The turn you switch in a counter, they'll be using Trick Room, and can often OH or THKO you, or else switch to some slow sweeper (Machamp, Rhyperior, Tar, Rampardos). You could try switching around to counters for 4 turns, but that leaves you open to free Subs, Nasty Plotting, Swords Dance, Hypnosis, etc.
  10. scwizard

    scwizard

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    I've beaten this team lol ^^

    Not that that means anything, I'm 1400 and currently falling (I switched my team around and I think I should probably switch back) so Aldaron is obviously a better player and has a better team. The reason I won is because I used wdrobat and subhaxkiss both of which aren't very friendly to this team.

    If we go down into the top 20 leads Crobat and Staraptor also force switches and cause pain. Only having problems with 1/5 of the top 20 openers is good for an opener though.

    Did you invent putting taunt on heatran, because that's like the new revolutionary discovery.

    EDIT: lol @ the 80 bagillion increased priority moves :P

    EDIT AGAIN: If you find your swampert staring down a blissey with thunderwave then you get a free stealth rock, but you also risk getting whatever attacker you bring in to kill it thunderwaved which kinda sucks. So blissey isn't that terrible against your team.
  11. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    No, I definitely did not "invent" it. But I do make pretty good use of it here, don't I?

    The funny thing about the heatran set, right now at least, is that it is completely up in the air. With your experience against this team, what do you suggest?
  12. scwizard

    scwizard

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    Well what are the reasons (specific pokemon would help) you might want dragonpulse or metal sound over taunt?

    Taunt takes care of twave Cress, Blissey, Umbreon and Suicune (which will ALWAYS clam mind as it's first move because it's stupid like that). I don't see what the other moves would take care of.
  13. picklesword

    picklesword

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    Well another team that will be ripped off by countless others, sigh. Well I like your team, don't think I would use it because most the time I trap opponets to kill them rather than swapping to counters. You really dish out dmg and things that can not heal imidiatly will quickly fall.
  14. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    Just want to say that I love the team and the way you've written this. However there is one small part of your opening strategy that seems a bit shaky to me:

    If I were you, I really wouldn't want to risk losing your lead Pokemon so cheaply to a Pokemon that literally preys on frail Pokes like Roserade that are afraid to take it on. If you do encounter CB Weavile at the start of the match, not only will you be losing your Roserade but in all likeliness Gengar too at some later point. This would automatically leave your team extremely vulnerable. I have to agree with Al and suggest Focus Sash on Roserade. It doesn't really have a use for Lefties, but with Focus Sash you can actually try and put Weavile to sleep before it can kill you (and lol if it tries to SD), as well as get a second chance against slower Pokes, rather than risk switching.

    Also, I think Spikes+Leaf Storm is technically illegal, but not on Shoddy obviously.
  15. Zephyrman

    Zephyrman

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    I got the impression that he would be switching out against Weavile... Do you mean that Roserade would get hit with Pursuit for a nice chunk of damage?
  16. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Hmm, you know, I'm starting to think of the merits of that focus sash. Not only would I survive that CB Pursuit, but I could literally just stay in and put it to sleep, which would save my gengar later.

    I think I'll try that, :).
  17. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Whoa whoa, I had no idea that Spikes + Leaf Storm was illegal. Can someone confirm this?

    I'll just switch that to Spikes + Grass Knot.

    Also, I've seriously thinking about that Cresselia, Zapdos and Gliscor weakness that comes into effect, so I've been trying this out to pretty decent success:

    Gallade@Life Orb
    Ability: Steadfast
    EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Nature: Adamant ( + Atk, - SpAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Punch
    - Night Slash

    After a swords dance, close combat ohko's hippowdon, skarm, donphan etc. with spikes and stealth rock. It does like 84% minimum to max defense max hp impish hippow I believe.

    Ice Punch is a ohko on Max HP max defense impish Gliscor, and a 1hko pretty much every time on Zapdos.

    Night Slash does 61-72% on Max HP max defense bold Cresselia, so that's pretty much taken care of.

    At 252 speed evs, Gallade reaches 259 speed, which is enough to outspeed those tanks, unless Zapdos is running an offensive set, which I would ice punch on the switch against as opposed to swords dancing.

    Essentially I am sacrificing Lucario's bulletpunch and extremespeed kills for Gallade's kills on tanks that kind of bother me...

    Opinions on this?

    Also, can someone confirm that Leaf Storm + Spikes bit?
  18. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

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    Well Gallade is a beast that is for sure, I would much rather run a more defensive EV spread but if you want to outrun Zapdos and the 100 base speed tanks that is fine too. Basically with defensive EVs you outrun the walls: Hippowdon, Skarm, Bliss, most Cressy, etc. If you really think Zapdos is that common go for it because Gallade can still take a hit or two w/out defensive EVs, just don't expect it to stay alive against a Draco Meteor from SpecsMence...
  19. fullpokedonut

    fullpokedonut

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    Salamence can have a speed increasing nature (such as mine) and outspeed Roserade and then proceed to go ahead and flamethrower it or fire blast and with life orb, Roserade isn't going to like it
  20. Fishin

    Fishin
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    Interesting team. It's a bit more offense-heavy then the style of play I prefer, but I can see it working. There are a few points that I'm curious on, though...

    I'm agreeing with the people that said Roserade should probably max speed. Tieing with them is probably more important than the extra 5 health.

    Swampert seems good. Personally, I prefer surf, but that's more personal preference then anything else.

    For Gengar...exactly what are you outspeeding with Timid nature that you couldn't with Modest? To be honest I'm not quite sure how common Jolly Scarfchomps and the like are (I don't use Scarfers a whole lot myself), so my opinion here might not be completely valid, but I wanted to voice it anyways since you didn't make a specific argument (beyond scarf-ape) for Timid over Modest.

    Heatran is solid. Offhand I'm not sure if there are any important 1/2HKO's to be gained by using life orb aside from the ones you mentioned, since I usually use Modest/Mild/Rash.

    Hitmontop is interesting. I've used a set much like that in UU, but I prefer Pursuit over Bullet Punch since Steel gets pretty poor coverage with Fighting and a 60 BP Dark attack is a decent weapon to hurt ghosts with (in addition to the obvious revenge-killing capabilities that pursuit brings). On the other hand, you can't damage ghosts on the switch-in with Pursuit (since it hits the pokemon switching out) and unlike with Bullet Punch, you can't hit Gengar before it hits you (though, for the record, Pursuit is a guarenteed 1HKO on Gengar even if it doesn't switch assuming you've got SR up). One other point that I'd like to mention is that Hitmontop with Pursuit does 82.55% - 97.17% on a 4/0 Dugtrio that switches out, meaning that at the very least you could most likely revenge-kill any Dugtrios (assuming some residual damage from spikes/SR) trying to ruin Heatran's day. Of course, Hitmontop's likely to take a good chunk damage if they stay in (though Mach Punch/CC will make them regret it), but...not much you can do about that.

    Lucario seems good. The ability to destroy walls is particularly nice.

    Overall, nice team. As I said, this team isn't my style of play at all, but I can certainly see why it would be effective.
  21. Mystica

    Mystica

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    Hey Aldaron ^_^

    I'm just going to say a few things:

    First of all, you don't have a spinner which may not be a terrible thing (I don't use a spinner on one of my main teams), but considering how you only have 1 Choice Scarf'd pokemon and alot of set up pokemon, a spinner I think is a must. Hitmontop isn't that great of a spinner due to ghosts imo, but consider getting one.

    You have no sleep talker, which isn't good on a relatively slow team. Breloom, Yanmega, Gengar etc can cause some serious damage imo. And it sucks having a slept pokemon killed like you only had 5 to start with. Natural Cure on Roserade doesn't solve the problem, it can just spore again.

    I also don't understand your team that well... considering none of your pokes have recovering moves. As I stated above, spikes and the lack of recovery can slowly tear this team apart.

    How do you take care of Heracross? You're relying too much on a fragile Gengar imo. Gengar, especially the Scarf'd kind can easily get Pursuited. There goes one of your most major resistances for the team.

    I would think Skarmory or Staraptor causing some problems with this team. Your heatran can't take many hits, and Lucario dies in one or two Brave Bird.
  22. Holden

    Holden

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    I've been running this team in ladder battles to great success. I've made a few changes:

    Roserade (♂) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Sleep Powder
    - Spikes
    - Grass Knot
    ---
    Swampert (♂) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 236 HP/216 Def/56 SAtk
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Ice Beam
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Surf
    ---
    Gengar (♂) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Thunderbolt
    ---
    Hitmontop (♂) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Fake Out
    - Mach Punch
    - Stone Edge
    ---
    Heatran (♂) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Taunt
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    ---
    Lucario (♂) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 Atk/70 Def/188 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Extremespeed
    - Bullet Punch
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance
    ---


    Roserade: Gave it a Focus Sash, so that she can sleep offensive leads like Infernape/Weavile. I've been moderately happy with spikes so far. The only time i wish i had toxic spikes is when im up against a wall and i have no living counter, but most of the time that wall is bulk up machamp or bulky metagross, and they are so aggressive that T spikes wouldn't end up helping much. I tweaked the EVs so she has max speed. Obviously changed Leaf Storm for Grass Knot.

    Hitmontop: Changed Bullet Punch to Stone Edge. This new set requires better prediction to use, and there are times when i miss having Bullet Punch. Despite those pitfalls, this set has much better type coverage. People are wising up to the Fake Out plan now though. Not sure if that changes anything, since its so awesome vs Salamence/Weavile/Garchomp whatever, but it is something to take notice of.

    Lucario: Tweaked the EVs so hes 252 atk 70 def 188 speed, enough to outspeed Jolly Breloom. The bulkiness helps him get that extra swords dance in. Too lazy to run calcs to see what it would take to survive gliscor/hippo/swampert EQs, but that would be a good thing to do.

    Gengar: Tweaked him so hes max speed as well as timid. You never, ever, ever want to get outsped. I ran modest for a while, but then an opposing scarfgar outsped me and i was ggd. Dunno if im being anal about this, but i think its really important that he is as fast as he possibly be.

    Swampert: Transferred Sp Def evs to Sp Atk and kept surf over hydro pump, so that he can reliably hurt things. The old evs made him set up bait, and hydro pump's accuracy just isnt worth it.

    Heatran: I chose life orb over shed shell, so that he can hurt things. He just doesnt dent stuff very well without boosts, and i haven't seen too many dugtrios. I'm testing HP Grass over explosion, because there is nothing i ever really want to explode on. Heatran is so good, why would you want to throw him away? Fire Blast dents just about anything, and Taunt is a total blow out.


    This team is ridic. It has gotten me back on the shoddy leaderboard, and it has done it in style. The team is very aggressive, and it can really plow through stall teams thanks to Tauntran and SD Luke.
  23. Stallion

    Stallion Killing is my business, and business is good!
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    Yeah I've been using it for quite awhile and must say that it is unexpected (well not so anymore) and is great at shutting down opposing Bliss/Cresselia (especially the latter, who only has Charge Beam and lol Ice Beam to hit Heatran).

    As most people said, Hera gives you huge problems, but I've played with offensive teams and the best way to play around threats like that (if your main plan is dead) is have alot of pokemon that can force him out. You have Roserade and Heatran for this aswell as Lucario for revenge kills which helps.

    Another way you could get around it is fitting Toxic Spikes in (possibly over Spikes on Roserade) and a flying type into your team with Protect. Protect is good for scouting, and helps you decide whether to stay in on Megahorn/CC or to switch out to Pert to take Stone Edge, and helps rack up Toxic Spikes damage. Maybe something like bulky Zapdos here?

    Anyway nice team just have to watch out for a few particular threats.
  24. Holden

    Holden

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    Protect Zapdos does sound strong. You'd almost have to cut Gengar for it though. They serve similar purposes (primary electric attack/backup special sweeper) but Gengar blocks Rapid Spin and Zapdos is a better wall.
  25. Ninjadead

    Ninjadead

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    You shouldnt scarf gengar, restricts his options, and fine options he has. The less you switch the better. Replace HP with Hypnosis and give him Wide lens. With his speed, he should be able to sleep most pokemon.

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