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DPP OU Revolutionizing the metagame in late 2007 (and rising (lol))

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Aldaron, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. Holden


    Oct 21, 2007
    The point of Scarf is that he outspeeds every pokemon in OU. You just have to use prediction to choose the right move, but nothing is faster. He takes out scarfchomps, agilipassed pokes, and ninjasks like no one else can.
  2. Cynthia


    Oct 24, 2007
    Pretty good team overall, I can see why you are ranked high up on the ladder.

    The only thing I would consider changing is Crunch over Bullet Punch on Lucario. You do lose the ability to hit ghosts with a priority move, but overall it's probably worth it to take Cresselia and Dusknoir.
  3. Stormfang


    Dec 3, 2007
    DD Dragonite with Yache Berry could cause problems to your team. Hitmontop can't flinch it, and Mach Punch/Bullet Punch does shit to it. It could survive an Ice Beam/Hp Ice from Swampert/Gengar respectively and kill them with Outrage. Roserade has no HP Ice and therefore is owned, as Dragonite falls in the category of late-game sweeper. Lucario has nothing to hit it either. Also, I think it would be better for your Roserade to pack HP Ice/enough speed ev's to outspeed Adamant Choice Band Garchomp. I don't really see adequate defense against Specsmence. Draco Meteor is an OHKO against Swampert.
  4. Al_Alchemist

    Al_Alchemist Physics and Math \O/
    is a Past SPL Champion

    Nov 4, 2007
    dance you obviously can't read because he said hes replacing it with focus sash and life orb would kill roserade because it is a fragile pokemon and sandstorm + life orb would kill it so fast. Choice specs is not an option because hes doing sleep powder + spikes on his roserade.
  5. Spaniard


    Apr 17, 2006
    What can I say, it's aldaron. Fantastic team.

    I would only point out a few things:

    You use spikes strategy, and gengar is your choice as a spin blocker, but ain't that a bit weak since you don't have leftovers? It makes the difference. I have also thought of using scarfgar, but I have figured out that gengar's potential is alterning attacks. Yours is still a good option, though.

    How do you exactly counter boosted waters? I've got the same problem, and it seems to be very common. For instance, rain dance teams or simply a boosted azumarril can cause high damage. Roserade isn't exactly a defensive pokemon.

    But as I said before, you're incredible, aldaron.

    Your friend spaniard.
  6. Ancien Régime

    Ancien Régime capitalism delenda est
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jul 21, 2007
    I still maintain that Metal Sound is the best 4th option for Heatran, mainly because while Taunt shuts down Cress's T-Wave and Blissey's Softboiled, Metal Sound can do useful things like catch T-Tar switchins enabling Earth Power to OHKO, bring a weakened bulky water within Dark Pulse OHKO range (Dark Pulse OHKOs Pert and Vaporeon after Metal Sound + SR + Spikes, yeah that's a lot to assume but being able to take down your biggest threat is always good; Cune's more sturdy though), and forces switches in and of itself because if you don't outspeed Heatran ), your *best* case scenario is that you lose your bulky water in exchange for killing Heatran.

    Aldaron also suggested another option over Swampert in the form of SR/Wish/Stoss/Ice Beam Blissey; even though you lose Swampert's great defensive coverage (which incidentally covers ALL of Pert's weaknesses), you (obviously) gain more special coverage, and a Wisher to keep Heatran alive, and don't lose too much coverage (really, Ice Beam is the attack Swampert will be using most)

    Btw, are you really leaving Heatran in on Gyara? (assuming you run Modest)
  7. Pneuma


    Jan 9, 2007
    This thread is awesome. My first Shoddy team was (and I keep returning to it) Hitmontop, Heatran, Azelf, Lucario, Tangrowth, and Spiritomb and it worked pretty well for most occasions, the parallels to this team are immense.
  8. XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2


    Aug 22, 2007
    No competent trainer is going to keep a Naive Infernape in against Gengar, since Gengar already OHKOs w/ Shadow Ball most of the time against Naive Infernapes even without Special Def drops, and of course they're going to switch out if they have Special Defense drops.
  9. Bioshock


    Sep 16, 2007
    Legends aren't bad. For example, Tyranitar's base stats are actually higher than some of the legendary pokemon, if you want to consider legendary pokemon cheap you'd have to consider Tyranitar to cheap to use. Legendary is just a status to show that they are rare. Heatran for example has a x4 weakness to the common move EQ, and can be walled by special walls. This allows it to be used without being considered too cheap. Meanwhile, Manaphy can become unstoppable thanks to rain dance and hydration, it can barley be killed, because of this ability it is too cheap to use in ordinary play. You should learn which legendarys are considered cheap before you denounce them.

    Also because you probably dont know, Uber and Legendary are two different terms in the metagame.
  10. Aldaron

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Aug 5, 2007
    Well, I didn’t respond for a while, so here are all my responses to what you all have said. This is order, so if you want to look for your specific response, just use find or scroll to about where you think it would be.

    Well, after running the team for a while (I’ve stopped using it for now…and went from 1702 and #2 to 1638 and #11 XD), I’ve come to the realization that Lucario is absolutely amazing. So now, changing the previous philosophy, I am actually considering changing Hitmontop instead. As for the Gallade, I haven’t really tried in complement with Lucario, so I guess that is one option. I am looking for something that can handle Gengar/cb cross + Gliscor/Staraptor while also being able to kill Blissey and Cresselia…Got any ideas haha?

    How did the team fare for you? Remember, you have to utilize the ability to switch and predict for this team to stand a chance. Some helpful pointers are that you should probably allow swampert to absorb sleep, and be your sacrifice pokemon if you have to. Also, try a basic combination play, like bringing gengar in against a choiced close combat from cross, and then switching to Lucario while he switches to Blissey to tak advantage of a free turn to set up swords dance ;).

    That is why I decided to run focus sash on Roserade now. Most mences don’t run +speed natures, so I can just sleep powder them. But if they do, then I will survive whatever attack and sleep powder you. Focus Sash saves me there.

    Yea, I am running a grass knot, toxic spikes, sleep powder hp fire Roserade now. Thanks for the compliment :).

    Thank you for your time. I changed Roserade to max speed evs. Gengar, I tried the modest version…but with the sudden appearance of scarfed gengars and azelfs…I’m going back to timid lol. Heatran I have removed taunt for dragon pulse. I am also considering specs on him…to remove the 10% recoil, and since I rarely switch attacks. Of course, shed shell is another issue, but Dugtrio has gone down lately.

    Hitmontop is what I am now considering switching…In light of what my team should be wary of and that he is an important Blissey killer, what would you recommend in its place? As for Lucario, it stays.

    Lol, I was waiting for your response. And it didn’t disappoint. Yep, you hit all the main weakness right on the head. Lack of a sleep absorber hurts me against Yanmega and Gengar; CB cross + Gliscor hurts and Staraptor is a bitch. Since I am considering replacing Hitmontop, would you have a decent alternative that could help me with these weaknesses and also help me kill blissey?

    And btw, lame Bulkymence :P

    Haha, I remember when someone on Shoddy asked me if I ran taunt first, and Shift flipped the fuck out on me, even after I said, “No.”
    Protect Zapdos is VERY interesting. However…it just difficult to replace hitmontop with a pokemon who can’t take down Blissey…

    I actually don’t like scarfgar on its own, yet if you look at the team, it is the perfect complement.

    Yep, took that consideration to practice, thanks for improving the team Cynthia. Crunch on Lucario is a GREAT option.

    DD Dragonite with Yache, the approximately 6 that I have faced have given me 0 problems. I don’t know how to justify other than in the battles, they just don’t bother me.

    I am running focus sash now.

    Thanks for clarifying that lol.

    Thanks for the compliments, Spaniard. Rain Dance teams are beaten by one, simple method…Don’t let them set up rain dance XD. However, they haven’t been too much of a problem, as WORLDCHAMPIONDAVID runs them effectively, and I’ve beaten him all three times with this team.
    As for Gengar…like I said, I don’t like scarfgar either, but for the team, it is necessary. Do you have another idea for that slot? I could consider changing it if you are recommending something haha.

    I had hp electric, found that it was pointless, and have now switched back to dragon pulse to predict chomp and mence entries.

    I never got around to switching Pert for that Blissey set, I probably should though with my recent severe drop in the rankings. The heatran set now looks like this: fire blast, explosion, earth power and dragon pulse. I might consider the metal sound bit lol.

    Well if they switch out…then I am already one step ahead of the game. Unless of course…they switch to pursuit Weavile/T-tar XD.

    OHKOs with the special defense drop…and of course, preferably they switch.

    It is illegal, and now, 4 straight losses have dumped me to 1638! I almost want to revert back to using this team…but it got boring :P. Rep me and my team better though! Get to #1!

    As for theoretical updates, I’ll repost the entire team soon, just so people can see all the changes. Thank you all for your positive feedback!
  11. Bioshock


    Sep 16, 2007

    If any of you know, I made a team specifically to counter this one. Well Holden is using Aldaron's team for him, and I actually faced Holden on the ladder. My counter to this team worked perfectly. I actually defeated this legendary team!

    Also sorry if I sound like bragging but I have been dreaming of that match up ever since I saw this team and made my team to counter it. I am just ecstatic because I never thought it would actually work.
  12. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Dec 19, 2004
    why should anybody care at all that you made a counter team to this team, it's been posted on a public forum. think about it — you have hardly accomplished anything at all besides posting a thinly veiled brag. there is nothing significant about beating a team with a counter team

    honestly, grow up. posts like that are really really bad and make me want to add "bragging" to the list of infractionable offenses
  13. Bogmire


    Jul 6, 2007
    About rapid spin, is there any real reason for close combat on Hitmontop? It seems like everything is taken care of with Fake Out and Bullet Punch/Mach Punch. Perhaps CC could be replaced with rapid spin. I know you'd get recoil from rapid spinning...but it's still worth considering.
  14. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 3, 2007
    Mach/Bullet Punch Top is too redundant. The only advantage of Bullet Punch is hitting Ghosts, and you should be running Pursuit like on every other Techmontop. Otherwise a solid team. And by "solid" I mean "kicks total and complete ass".
  15. Ulevo


    Aug 31, 2007
    After using a similar Heatran, I have to say that your consideration for Shed Shell is a must. Also, it might not be a bad idea to consider Substitute in place of Explosion. Each time you switch in Heatran, whether if it be on a Skarmory/Forretress, or if it would be against an Ice assault, you are almost guaranteed a switch. This also helps to rape other opposing Heatran, which seem to be quite common. You also might not be fast enough to use Explosion on something you may need to, so it's use can be limited in that regard. You might want to consider exchanging Fire Blast with Flamethrower or even Lava Plume. Reason being is that I found after raping opposing Blissey/Cresselia with Taunt + FB, I would be left with little to no PP to work with. Eventually, I would be stalled out against Levitate/Flying types. The burn factor on LP is also nice.

    Anyway, those are just some suggestions. Nice team, I'll see you on Shoddy sometime.
  16. Dragontamer


    Jun 9, 2007
    Well done team. I should note that yes, "deep chains" are amazing, however they are extremely dangerous as soon as you publish your team, and quickly grow ineffective once you start to battle the same people and people who recognize your strategy.

    I for one used Triple Priority Hitmontop once, and it is very useful indeed. Mach Punch + Bullet Punch are not as redundant as most people would believe. I congradulate you in actually finding a team for it.

    Roserade has never worked for me very well, I never have been able to get Sleep Powder down pat all the time. I just can't get the accuracy down. However, Leaf Storm Roserade is severly underrated right now, and again, I congradulate you in finding a good place for Roserade.

    Last slot: Lucario Swords Dance / Endure / Reversal / Crunch takes out just about everyone except Dusknoir and your Scarf-Gar. I personally have found it very useful on my team and it alone has literally reversed at least 1 game from a 6-0 loss into a 1-0 sweep. It would be hit/miss on your team. Either it covers all of the late game threats that you're leaving out, or it doesn't. But give it a few tries before you give it up, it really is quite an interesting pokemon.

    If Dugtrio is choiced banded, Lucario always beats it. Endure on the first hit to see if it is Sucker Punch.

    Considering there is at least 1 kill Dugtrio will net each game on your team (Heatran), it is worth noting IMO.


    Someone else's Pokemon that has done me in was Mixed Magmotar.
    Mach Punch / Cross Chop

    You might want to give it a go on your last slot as well.


    I should note my Stallrein will pwn your team if Roserade doesn't lay the T. Spikes (and I always have tentacruel to absorb them). However, my Stallrein team hasn't been doing well in this newer stall-oriented metagame than in the uber-offensive metagame, so I'd say currently your team truely is better than mine... just that I'm pretty sure my team can beat yours :-p

    Just wondering if that makes sense. Lol.
  17. oPlaiD


    May 10, 2007
    This seems to be a recurring point of debate in this thread, so I figure I'll chime in here. I've ran a ScarfGar lead since Shoddy came out, and the only thing that's ever outsped me without a boost while I was running Modest was another ScarfGar. When I asked my opponent he was apparently running the same nature and EVs as I was, at the time, for what that's worth.

    In conclusion, there will be very, very few situations where running Modest will hurt you.

    Opposing ScarfGars, though, are one of them, and a potentially game-changing one, considering whichever is faster gets the OHKO Shadow Ball.

    So, really, it's whatever floats your boat. On my team I could handle an opposing ScarfGar without mine, but yours may not fare so well missing your ghost.
  18. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Nov 7, 2007
    I have a few questions/comments about the new version of the team.

    Why did you choose grass knot over leaf storm on Roserade? GK isn't bad, but 210 base power off 125 base Special Attack would just be too evil for me to pass up. Even with the stat drop the second hit is stronger than a GK against lighter pokes, and Roserade switches out alot anyway since it doesn't take physical hits well. If it's a question of legality then there's no need to worry--Leaf Storm/Sleep Powder is passed down by Bulbasaur.

    Also regarding Roserade, I've never been a fan of focus sash. It's auto-fail against weather and spikes/SR, especially with no spinner. Even barring those, it blows to get fire blasted by infernape, scarftran, etc only to have sleep powder miss, or get burned and die anyway. You might even be better off with wise glasses lol. At least that way, when you see a Ttar/Hippo/Obama lead you don't have to think, "If I had used an oran berry I would be in a better position than I am now."

    My experience with taunting Heatran is that taunt is incredibly useful 10% of the time and is otherwise a complete waste of space. I'm interested to know how Dragon Pulse works out, since I'm frequently frustrated by roosting salamences (+2 points for alliteration).

    Does it really matter if Lucario has a -Def or -Sp.Def nature? He's either OHKO'd or takes like four damage from every attack in the game not named thunderbolt. A OHKO on Gliscor without SR would be helpful in like 1/75 games whereas the 10% drop in defense will probably never matter at all. It's also nice to get some extra damage in on...uhh...Dragonite...and Torterra.

    Are the 16 def EV's doing anything on Gengar? Maybe help against Bronzong...but with all the timid scarfgars running around thanks to this thread, 252 speed seems like a much wiser option.

    For some not-adequately-explained reason I've never been paired up against you on shoddy. I look forward to playing the creator of this team as I have seen it misused more times than I can count.

    Good Luck! I hope this helps, or at least provides something to think about.
  19. Pablo


    Nov 16, 2006
    Aldaron wouldnt running Lonely on Lucario be more beneficial than Adamant? so you can actually OHKO Gliscor without the need of Stealth Rock, easing prediction a bit?
  20. Bogmire


    Jul 6, 2007
    bulbasaur can't pass both down according to serebii. however victreebell can. I don't see why leaf storm/toxic spikes/hp fire/sleep powder couldn't be done. I see nothing illegal about it =/ And looking at your team it seems like leaf storm is the better move in most cases.
  21. Frazzel


    Jul 3, 2007
    Heh, this is a bump of sorts but there is something of somewhat large importance you say:

    Alakazam- Gengar has fun with it, and both Lucario and Hitmontop can take care of it. Note, the Inner Focus ones are problems, as they don’t flinch against Hitmontop. But generally speaking, if he dies and I bring in Gengar, they aren’t switching out Kazam.

    though absolutely nothing can switch into a life orbed psychic bar heatran who gets annihalated by focus blast / HP fighting, you also speak in a rather vague manner in the counter section, such as the example above you acknowledge alakazam as a threat yet you do not have a pokemon that can safely switch into said pokemon, I'm sure there are other example such as this, going by that statement about alakazam you have
    nothing that can safely switch into zam showing a weakness.
  22. Fury


    Jul 22, 2006
    His team uses resistances to counter things.

    He switches to Heatran when Ala uses Psychic. Like you said, the opponent's going to try to use Focus Blast/HP: Fighting next, correct? That's when you send in Gengar to own that Alakazam.
  23. Trust


    Jun 24, 2007
    Leaf Storm + Sleep Powder is legal, with Victreebel, so I don't understand why don't use Leaf Storm over Grass Knot. I used this set and works wonders with LS.
  24. Atticus

    Atticus Atticus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championwon the 10th Official Smogon Tournamentdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Aug 15, 2007
    =( I was plannin on using a similar roserade but damn even with grass knot, sleep powder and spikes is illegal and I really don't like toxic spikes. I would really be enlighted to figure out it is legal but so far no luck, I have Pokesav and getting the moves isn't a problem put I'm afraid if I try that Roserade set people will accuse me of cheating.
  25. Bogmire


    Jul 6, 2007
    Leaf storm+sleep powder is legal.

    Maybe that's why the set isn't working for you, because you're using grass knot which is inferior in most cases. Toxic spikes is still better than no spikes at all.

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