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Gen 1 Rhydon or Golem

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Wiffleball Tony, Mar 22, 2007.

  1. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Rhydon and Golem both pwn ass! Rhydon can beat Golem 1v1 with Surf/Blizzard. Better movepool, however, loses to that coveted Explosion. Chansey frightens Rhydon. Golem explodes and shatters her soft, plushy heart. Rhydon is good for cartridge players w/o friends, though.
  2. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Rhydon won't beat Golem unless it CH or Golem's EQ misses as Surf 2HKOes and Blizzard 3HKOes. Golem's movepool is [much] better just because of Explosion. Golem has 5 viable moves (EQ+RS+Explosion+Sub/BS). Rhydon's moveset is immutable. And Chanseys matchups are surely Rhydon's main advantage over Golem (2HKO vs 3HKO) if it has any relevant advantage.
  3. Zombeh

    Zombeh

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    Go Rhydon. ^^ Simply because if you are bad at timing (like guessing when to 'splode) then you have a Rhydon which can withstand hits and dish out some damage.

    But I like the idea of the aforementioned Sandslash :)
  4. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Tough one. I like Golem for Explode personally, but it's mostly personal preference.
  5. Borat

    Borat

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    Hope you realize nothing is forcing you to explode, so in the meantime, Golem "can withstand hits and dish out some damage."
  6. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Golem is better, period. Rhydon slightly higher attack and (HP+Defense)/2 is nearly matched with Golem's extra speed alone, which allows him to stand a chance against Golems. (and beat Rhydon).
  7. jrp

    jrp Drama born from light as the four elements converge
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    Rhydon. And not because it can ko golem with surf, simply because a pokemom can beat another one doesn't make it better. The higher hp and attack help it take out more threats and take more hits,
    Running special attacks on a rhydon JUST to beat golem isn't a good strategy.
  8. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Rhydon can't KO Golem. In fact, it's the opposite. Golem is better because of Explosion.
    It depends, and beating Chansey is actually the only real argument that Rhydon supporters could make after all.
    There isn't any relevant difference between the damage roll of each one, bar the aforementioned EQ on Chansey (and Starmie, but Golem is better there because explodes). Every relevant poke that 1/2/3HKOes Rhydon, 1/2/3HKOes Golem.
  9. jrp

    jrp Drama born from light as the four elements converge
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    I' mean that saying that rhydon can beat golem is irrelevent.
    And yeah, chansey is the main reason to use rhydon
  10. Borat

    Borat

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    This is a theorymon argument, and in most real world instances, it's false. Nothing is keeping the pokemon at 100% at all times, so why are damage calculations being calculated as if they were?

    There's a difference between 26% and 31%, it doesn't really matter if both are "technically 4HKO". Just like there's a difference between 93% and 78% HP remaining. Is Chansey being hit by a Starmie Blizzard, thus succumbing to guaranteed 2HKO from Golem that out of ordinary?

    While there's a "significant" difference between 32% and 34%, that doesn't exclude all intermediate damages as being "insignificant".
  11. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
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    Golem beats Rhydon, and I prefer Golem by itself anyway. Explosion is awesome
  12. Crystal_

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    Borat, at almost every damage difference that could be relevant favoring Rhydon, Golem is better because of explosion. Rhydon can't threaten Egg/Starmie with the damage it will do more that Golem would, due to Explosion. And in 97% cases in which Rhydon can threaten something with EQ/RS/whatever, Golem can as well without needing explosion (a 43% para Egg, a 31% Starmie, a para Zam, a 77% Chansey etc)
  13. Borat

    Borat

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    That's an irrelevant point. I'm talking about the concept of the argument itself. It doesn't dispute the fact that calculations should not be made in terms of "HKOs" except in very unique circumstances. Of those in RBY, they include 100% damage (obvious) and 50%+ (to outpace one-turn recovery and because of high CH rates, also result in OHKOs). In GSC, the values are 100% (again OHKO matters), 53% (to outpace one-turn recovery), and 38% (to outpace Rest). All other intermediate values should be taken at face value. 30% is better than 28%, despite both being 4HKO.
  14. Crystal_

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    Yes, you are right. But you can't say that the differences that exist between doing 27% and 30% do worth it if you have to lose explosion.
  15. waterwizard

    waterwizard

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    On most teams, Golem is the superior choice due to explosion pressure. However, Rhydon can occasionally outshine Golem as a late game sweeper by doing a tad bit more damage each hit, while taking a tad bit less.

    Here are a few damage calculations:

    Golem:

    Earthquake vs Chansey - 374-318 (53%-45%)
    Earthquake vs Starmie - 152-129 (47%-40%)
    Earthquake vs Alakazam - 216-183 (69%-58%)
    Earthquake vs Tauros - 142-120 (40%-34%)
    Rock Slide vs Zapdos - 230-195 (60%-51%)

    Rhydon:

    Earthquake vs Chansey - 420-357 (60%-51%)
    Earthquake vs Starmie - 171-145 (53%-45%)
    Earthquake vs Alakazam - 242-206 (77%-66%)
    Earthquake vs Tauros - 159-135 (45%-38%)
    Rock Slide vs Zapdos - 258-219 (67%-57%)

    (percentages by t3h Icy)

    From the above stats, one can see that Rhydon has a few notable numeric advantages (particularly against Chansey and Starmie). The extra damage done to Tauros is also useful as it puts Tauros in KO range from an Articuno Blizzard or a stabbed HB later in the game.

    Aside from the examples above, there are many more situations where Rhydon can utilize his offensive advantage, but they only arise with careful planning and execution. Rhydon functions well as a team player, and if used with the right team in the hands of a skilled trainer, he can be quite a formidable sweeper.

    WW
  16. t3h Icy

    t3h Icy

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    To be honest, the extra damage and extra bulk is rarely useful with Rhydon, unless you plan everything out well, but even then, the randomness with Critical Hits, damage ranges, etc can change that.

    Also for those that often preach that Rhydon has the advantage against Starmie/Chansey over Golem, it's not really that helpful.

    Rhydon has a guarantee 2HKO on Chansey and can sometimes 2HKO Starmie, but that chance isn't even great. Across two turns it's 426/1521 (28%). And while Golem can't always 2HKO Chansey like Rhydon, it's still 496/1521 (~33%), which adds an option if the first Earthquake does high damage (if you get close to 374 with the first Earthquake, you're almost guaranteed the 2HKO if you choose to Earthquake again). Rhydon vs Starmie is still forced to Earthquake for offense if you get a low damage Earthquake, while Golem has the option of Explosion. Besides, you have to have both Chansey and Starmie Paralyzed to beat them with Rhydon, and you'll be taking a heavy hit in the exchange (except for Full Paralysis). At least Golem can use Explosion with or without Paralysis.

    Really though, it's super easy to switch into Golem/Rhydon. Exeggutor doesn't mind any of their attacks except for Paralyzing Body Slams. You can also chain-switch around to a Flying and then your own Golem/Rhydon, or if expecting Body Slam, go to Gengar and then to Articuno or Exeggutor.

    Golem/Rhydons roles are to switch into Hyper Beams, block Electrics, pressuring the opponent not to explode or explode into the Rocks, and for some Physical sweeping after Paralysis. With Golem, you get all the pressure and mindgames with Explosion, while Rhydon survives a few things for an extra turn and kills others in one less turn, but again, you need precision with your planning to make it beneficial. With the lack of Explosion, you also have to make up for the pressure lost. Rhydon should never Earthquake Gengar for example.

    Golem > Rhydon in most cases.
  17. Hipmonlee

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    The differences in damage are pretty significant, and they exist for pretty much every pokemon in the game too.

    Exeggutor and Alakazam are less likely to 2hko with psychic.
    Chansey and Starmie are more likely to die from 2 earthquakes.
    Tauros is more likely to die from a bodyslam and 2 earthquakes. And has a chance to KO Golem with blizzard and an earthquake.
    Snorlax is more likely to die from 3 earthquakes. And is more likely to KO with a bodyslam and a surf.
    Jynx is more likely to be OHKOed by Rockslide.
    Gengar is guaranteed to be OHKOed by earthquake.
    Slowbro is more likely to be 3hkoed by earthquake.
    Rhydon has some chance of surviving a Lapras blizzard. And Lapras is more likely to be koed by 2 rockslides.

    Dont underestimate Rhydon. Explosion is nice, but otherwise the benefits of Rhydon are unquestionable. Rhydon and Golem are the only pokemon in the game that you are better off with Golem than Rhydon against, if you arent exploding.

    The minor damage differences are also pretty significant on a pokemon you expect to be taking a lot of resisted hits with.

    Have a nice day.
  18. t3h Icy

    t3h Icy

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    Exeggutor Psychic vs Rhydon - 854/1521
    Exeggutor Psychic vs Golem - 1253/1521

    Alakazam Psychic vs Rhydon - 1455/1521
    Alakazam Psychic vs Golem - 1521/1521


    Against Exeggutor is relatively significant, but you tend to switch out vs Exeggutor since their strongest move is Rock Slide. At least Golem can explode.

    Against Alakazam, Rhydon has a 4.3% chance of surviving a pair of Psychics. If either one of them is Critical (41%), you lose that, or if the first Psychic lowers Special (30%), then you lose that as well. That leaves only 0.76% chance to survive 2 Psychics. That's pretty redundant as that also means Rhydon has to be fresh.

    These two are useful, but as I said in my last post, it's only a 28% chance of 2HKOing Starmie, while you get Blizzard/Surf/Hydro in the face. Rhydon is guaranteed to 2HKO Chansey while Golem has a 33% chance, which is definitely nice for Rhydon, but you have to take an Ice Beam, and since Rhydon is slower, Chansey needs to be Paralyzed as Ice Beam 2HKOs.

    Almost guaranteed for Rhydon which is nice, but for this to work, you need the first Body Slam to Paralyze. Otherwise, you get Body Slam and an Earthquake in, then you die/switch unless Blizzard misses. This leaves Tauros at 30-40% which is nice range for most things if you don't get the 3HKO. Yay.

    Basically 0%. Even if you did get that, what sort or weird switches are going on where you Earthquake/Blizzard a Golem switch-in? Maybe a Golem sacrifice instead of something else taking Earthquake? Even in a fresh 1v1, and you see that you hit with a max damage Blizzard, the following Earthquake would also need to be nearly max damage. Two Blizzards would be better unless Golem is one of the remaining Pokemon and you're just hitting it with Tauros to finish the match following that. But in that case, the 2HKO isn't that useful if you're about to win.

    Rhydon EQ vs Snorlax - 58653/59319
    Golem EQ vs Snorlax - 1140/59319

    Definitely nice.

    Works roughly 80% of the time on Golem, which is nice since Golem may switch-in against Body Slam, but this assumes a slightly less common Snorlax set (opposed to the typical Physical set).

    Guaranteed with Rhydon, and ~56% with Golem. Only that Jynx is more likely than not to OHKO Rhydon with Blizzard (Golem always dies), so Jynx needs to be Paralyzed, and I don't really see someone keeping a Paralyzed Jynx in unless they want to sacrifice her.

    Golem is at 90% to OHKO, but guarantees are nice.

    Rhydon with 45070/59319 (76%) and Golem with 0% chance. The only way you're hitting Slowbro with three Earthquakes is on the switch while Slowbro Rests, so you do have to be careful with switching in, but this does work. Including Criticals though, Golem has a 24% chance for a 3HKO (at least one EQ is Critical), and Rhydon has a 22% chance, bringing his total to 81% vs Golem's 24%. Yay.

    Blizzard kills Rhydon 80% of the time while Golem dies about 97% of the time. Kind of helpful.

    Lapras needs to be Paralyzed then, and you need to Critical, have Lapras miss/FP or Rock Slide Lapras on a switch (lol). In any case, it is 98% to 2HKO with Rhydon and 9% with Golem, so yay.

    As I've shown, many of these are fairly insignificant (though there are a few important ones like vs Chansey), but one of the main things is you're playing based on luck to get many of these (whether surviving or killing), instead of using Explosion which is based on the user's skill in predicting the opponent.

    Also like I said, you need to carefully plan and setup these situations or else you don't get yourself into these advantages with Rhydon, and you already have to make up for the lack of unpredictability and pressure since Rhydon can't explode.

    Rhydon has situations where the extra bulk and extra damage come in handy, but you need the proper execution for these to shine, and even then, many of these run on luck. Golem can put your opponent in worse positions if you predict well, and as the user of Golem, you should know what you can and can't kill successfully.

    Rhydon is more "user-friendly", but Golem is more useful more often than not unless you're Exploding on Gengar/Rocks/sacs.
  19. XaperZ

    XaperZ

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    Golem. Nuff Said
  20. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    They are fairly insignificant by themselves, but the point is, there are just so god damn many of them. Pretty much every pokemon in OU.

    And it's rby man. You should be always playing based on luck.

    As for planning, these things will happen by accident all the time. It isnt careful planning to have a rhydon CH a full health starmie as it switches in and OHKO, as opposed to it survivng and recovering off the damage you did.

    Have a nice day.
  21. t3h Icy

    t3h Icy

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    There aren't that many, but there are a few major ones. Of course there's also tons more when BL, UU and NU Pokemon are used, but they're not viably used often in OU games. A lot of these don't work all that well in fresh 1v1s. What's better with Rhydon is revenge killing (ie finishing off damaged Pokemon), but if you're using Rhydon's Earthquake in situations where Golem's is enough, then Rhydon's extra Attack is a waste. That's why the user has to know the damage ranges and what other Pokemon they have that can put the opponents into these.

    Yes, but you're unnecessarily adding more luck than you need to be successful. Golem's Explosion of course has some places where luck is involved (such as vs Starmie), but using it well runs more on the player's choices when to use it and Earthquake (or other options) than luck. Many of these also are running luck that's not in your favor without setups and (such as your example vs Lapras). At near-perfect levels of play, Rhydon is better when you use execution and planning, as opposed to Golem who can do the same (but worse due to lesser stats), but runs more on prediction with Explosion. However, prediction is entirely based on what you and the opponent do, while Rhydon has to deal with the RNG as well (much more than Golem anyway).

    Luck is what causes the accidents. If you pay attention to the damage you're doing each turn (not just with Rhydon, but with everything), you'll know when an opponent is in range of Rhydon's Earthquake. The idea is to get the opponents in these ranges, where Golem's Earthquake would be outside, giving Rhydon the advantage for your team. If you can't do that or are just unaware that you're doing it, you're not using Rhydon properly.

    In 1v1s with a fresh Rhydon vs a fresh opponent such as your example, then yeah, they are accidental.
  22. Borat

    Borat

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    Disagree. Prediction (useful prediction anyway) in the highest form is no less lucky than your everyday CH, especially on the scale of RBY battling. Short term (aka next turn prediction) is almost completely random simply because of the sheer levels/degrees of prediction involved.

    However, few, if any of these really occur. In most cases, there's a pretty obvious "better" choice which most players will lean towards, and those can be "predicted" pretty easily, but that's not really prediction imo.
  23. fighting103

    fighting103

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    I personally perfer Rhydon (just my opinion lol) if just for the fact that he has higher attack, he can also use special attacks (not very usefully but still) they both pwned in the original gen 1 but it's sad to see how far they have fallen because of new threats

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