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Rising Dominance (Sun Offense)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Alter, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
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    [​IMG]
    An OU Sun Offense team created by ShellShocker
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    Hey there, everyone! Tonight I'll be bringing you one of my most successful teams that I've been using a lot lately. I don't really ladder too much but right now I'm up to a rating of 1740 on of one my alts. Given, this isn't high or anything, I still think it is a pretty good achievement for now. This team started around a base of Eject Button Ninetales along with a trapper (which ended up being Wobbuffet). I've put a lot of effort building and working on this team and received advice from many other players. I started playing on Pokemon Showdown! late last year and using a Sun team was the first I made. Admittedly, when I first joined I was one of those guys that tried to run Charizard in OU along with a limited knowledge of the game. I like to think that over the course of my playing my skill has improved dramatically with an expansion of my competitive knowledge. Without further ado, please enjoy my team.

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    HTML:
    Ninetales (F) @ Eject Button
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 240 HP / 168 SDef / 100 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Flamethrower
    - Sunny Day
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar
    
    Wobbuffet (M) @ Custap Berry
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Destiny Bond
    - Counter
    - Mirror Coat
    - Encore
    
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    
    Chandelure (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 30 Spd / 3 Atk
    - Fire Blast
    - SolarBeam
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    
    Dragonite (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Dragon Dance
    
    Venusaur (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 76 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Naive Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Earthquake
    - Growth
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    Well, I guess that's the end of it. Before I wrap up this RMT, I'd like to say thanks to a few people. The first and largest thanks definitely goes to The Unlucky One, who not only gave me advice on improving the team but was very nice and supportive through the process. Thanks a bunch, man! Really, this team was improved a lot by him and I can't thank him enough. Secondly, a shout-out to Tom who helped me test this team a lot and offered me his opinion on sets. Next up, Aurora deserves a shoutout just because I said so. Problem? Too bad. It's also worth mentioning all the other Showdown players who helped me fix holes in my team through battling them and picking up on common threats. I don't claim this team to be perfect, but I hope it shows you a good example of where sun offense can go. Thank you for reading.
  2. Smogteer

    Smogteer

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    This is an awesome strategy! I have seen the devastation myself! ShellShocker has featured in my tourneys and played brilliantly with this team!
  3. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    hey ShellShocker :) Thanks for a lot of the shoutouts and stuff. This team is really good actually. It doesn't have much glaring weaknesses except some stuff that are natural to Sun teams like Substitute Kyurem-Black (even so, you just need to put enough pressure to not let it Sub. The Hone Claws+Dragon Tail variants are dealt with by Ninetales and Hazards+Spinblocker def helps) so it isn't too big of a deal. Something I was rather scared of when you showed off the team to me was the reliance of Wobbuffet to deal with threats (side note: who am i to say that, i rely a lot on Goth and Tran for my sun team lol). Wobbuffet is very much a 1 for 1 pokemon or a 2 for 1 mon with Custap Destiny Bond and Wobbuffet is your main check to the threats in the meta like Keldeo and Landorus while having a double-duty of helping in the weather war. These changes I am going to recommend is an attempt to take a load off of Wobbufett's shoulders so it can sustain decent health throughout the game.

    First off you don't want weather ruining Chandy's day. The fact that Wobbuffet is the main roadblock for winning the weather war means that Rain offense won't have a hard time toppling you over eventually. To give as much help against weather, You must consider Changing SolarBeam to Energy Ball Sure you made a bit of a side comment but I think that idea is enough to make it a staple on that Chandelure. Speaking of Chandelure, you really don't wanna be outsped by Timid Scarf Politoed so A Timid Nature would work over a Modest one Sure you lose out on a bit of wallbreaking capabilities, but i'm pretty sure 145 SpA is good enough to support itself :) You can also outspeed Gyarados iirc which helps since SubBounce can potentially wreck your team.

    Alright now let's go for some optional stuff. In our conversations you mentioned Mamoswine being a mon you really hate with this team. This might be a good enough reason to Spikes with Gyro Ball Gyro Ball can help vs Mamo while stopping you from being set-up fodder to Rock Polish Landorus who you rely on Wobbuffet to deal with. Volt Switch is irreplaceable at the current moment since your Scarfer isn't the fastest of scarfers so you really wanna stop as much set-up opportunities as possible from DD or RP mons.

    Since you rely on Wobbuffet for the weather war and it is our goal to take as much weight off of his shoulders (as said before, you rely WAY too much on wobbuffet) we need something as a weapon vs other weathers better. It might be a decent consideration to Replace Dragonite for LO Latias LO Latias really helps vs Rain teams in general (Ttar is lured by HP fighting and Hippo Sand is not too hard to deal with cuz of Venu's Luring) and it's main walls (Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran) are all dealt with or lured by your team. Again this is optional as Dragonite is really good for dealing with HP Ground Volc that Chandy can't handle or some other stuff that Dnite covers that Latias doesn't.

    Good job with the team! A lot of creativity with the initial core as well as using stuff that are really cool and the team works out in general. These rates are a lot of minor stuff and as you see the only real issue are how team matchup usually can be not in your favor against high-level teams. Hope these improvements help, thanks again for the shoutouts and good job!
  4. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Nice team, I'd really love to see that core in action, and will probably try it myself since it's very interesting and innovative, I guess. I don't have much to add, The Unlucky One already covered many possible changes (I support most of them), and you covered almost as many yourself in your set descriptions.

    The only thing I would modify (but I guess it's just a typo or something) is to use an IV array of 31/30/30/31/31/31 on Venusaur: it seems you're using a 2 Atk IVs, that is obviously not ideal for mixed Venusaur (and, btw, does not give you an Hidden Power Ice, unless you also lower the Defense to 30). Make sure to not use the 31/31/31/31/31/30 spread (or to edit your EVs accordingly), since using that one you are outsped and OHKO'd by Scarf Latios even in sunlight.

    Sorry for the short rate, but I guess that's a positive team for your team, after all! I hope it's useful somewhat anyway. Good luck!
  5. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Already responded to The Unlucky One over PS.

    Hey there ganj4lf,

    Thanks for the rate! I thought the IVs would be a bit confusing, sorry. I meant to put them as if the IVs I displayed where the ones I edited and the Hidden Power I mentioned also had the forced IVs. Edit: Deleted the rest of my message. I can't believe I didn't notice that fault with Venusaur, derp. Thank-you very much for the kind words and picking up on that.

    @Chimpakt: Hey there Chimpakt,
    First of all thank you for the kind words about my team - it means a great deal to me coming from you. To be honest, I never really noticed that it followed item clause, haha. I think you're definitely correct in saying that the team relies on Wobbuffet to too large of an extent which can be frustrating for me at times when I misplay Wobbuffet and it dies far too early.

    On the topic of Gyro Ball over Spikes, I really can't think of a more annoying dilemma of four moveslot syndrome. Heck, it'd be great to even fit Toxic Spikes on him as well! I never like to use a team in the same way every single battle (which is why I've mentioned Energy Ball / Trick on Chandelure) so I'll definitely take into consideration the repeated idea of Gyro Ball on Wobbuffet. Alternatively, I could also attempt to use the same move set albeit with a Red Card instead of Leftovers in order to punish set-up sweepers. Furthermore, a Red Card could also help alleviate the team's Baton Pass problem as well as, which you stated, take pressure of Wobbuffet to makes sure that he can fully fill his intended role. Again, thanks for the feedback!

    @Dcae: Hey Dcae, thanks for the rate. I've actually tried Garchomp in the past albeit with a different set. The lack of priority on Garchomp hurts severely when trying to take out a boosted threats. It also removes the team's only Ground immunity/resistance meaning threats such as Landorus-I and -T can much more easily wreck up my team by themselves. I will still try out the Garchomp set as it appears to be a very nice substitution for a late game sweeper when its threats have been killed off by my fire-type moves.

    I've also done some testing just recently on Gyro Ball Forretress. The results were pretty good and Forretress wasn't completely set up bait for the likes of Dragonite anymore. I did noticeable miss the spikes support but it is still manageable regardless. I think it's better left to personal preference with Gyro Ball vs. Spikes and I prefer having the extra residual damage to ensure my sweepers can KO.
  6. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributor

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    I applaud you for using such an innovative team. Most sun teams on here are 6-0'd by volcarona but it's nice to see someone put thought into their team. It's super creative and even follows item clause lol.

    A few things I've noticed while testing this team is that like the unlucky one said, it relies on wobbuffett a lot. It's the main answer to take out big threats and win the weather war. You really need to take pressure off of it and allow some of your other pokemon to handle threatening pokemon so all wobbuffett has to worry about is winning the weather war for you.

    One of the biggest threats to your team is Kyurem-B. It gets to take out something nearly everytime it comes in. Dragonite is outsped and multiscale is not going to help against Kyurem's ability, it can take both venusaur and chandelure's hits and ohko back with an appropriate move. the only pokemon that can take a hit reliably is forretress and that can't retaliate back with anything.

    As a result, I think you should give your Forretress a relaxed nature with Gyro Ball over spikes. Extra hazards are nice, but stealth rock damage is enough for your team to work properly and it makes it so Forretress is not set up fodder against dragons, who match up very good against sun. With Gyroball you can deal decent damage to Kyurem to either take it out or weaken it enough to where another one of your pokemon will be able to take it out.

    This is pretty much the only suggestion that I really have. I feel like Dragonite could be replaced by something that can do something so much more on your team, but priority and its ability to handle volcarona is amazing.

    good luck with your team.
  7. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Hello there ShellShocker! This is a very nice Sun team, using a very unique combo in Eject Button Ninetales and Wobbuffet. Since other raters have already covered a lot of the problems, mainly the weakness to the deadly Sub Kyurem-B, this will be a shorter rate. Now as other raters have gone over, Kyurem B is the biggest threat to this team, as it will KO anything once it comes in. Dragonite is a wonderful pokemon, but I think on this team the weakness to Kyurem B could be patched up with the addition of SubSalac Garchomp. SubSalac Garchomp is one of my favorite sweepers, and it can set up easily on many pokemon. The two counters to the set are Bronzong and Skarmory, both handily removed due to this been a Sun team. Chomp outspeeds and OHKOs Kyurem as well, unlike Dragonite. The tradeoff for running Chomp is you lose priority, but instead get a pokemon that is quicker off the bat, allowing it to outspeed and take out base 100 and 101 threats such as Nasty Plot Thundurus and others. The Garchomp set is as follows:

    [​IMG]Garchomp @Salac Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    -Swords Dance
    -Substitute
    -Outrage
    -Earthquake


    This is a monstrous sweeper that has won me personally many games, and is really underrated. It helps your team out cover threats as well. An option is to move the 4 HP EVs to Def in order to create 4 Subs and have Salac activate at 1% HP. That, however, is up to preference.

    Another option to take care of Mamoswine and Kyurem B that has already been suggested, which I back, is dropping Spikes and replacing it with Gyro Ball. This allows Forretress to damage sweepers that try to use it as fodder, allowing it to take out Mamo, Kyurem B, and severely hurt sweepers in general. Overall, this is a very good team, and I hope I helped. I also love the RMT presentation, really well done. Good luck!



    Tl;dr
    tl;dr (open)
    SubSalac Chomp > Dragonite
    Gyro Ball + Relaxed nature > Spikes + Bold
  8. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Just a little bump for more rates. :)
  9. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♪~ i don't want to know what she did; she is not who i am ~♪
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    I see someone here has been emulating the format of my RMTs. Haha. I kid you, but if you really did copy the format for my RMTs, then that's cool as well. By the way, what font did you use for your Pokemon sets? It's aesthetically pleasing. Anyways, onto the substance of my rate.

    First off, I'd like to see you follow through with Chimpakt's and Dcae's suggestion of Gyro Ball over Spikes and a Relaxed nature over the Bold nature currently on Forretress, as the Kyurem-B weak is painfully noticeable. In addition, Gyro Ball helps against CBTar, which poses massive problems for your one spinblocker and trapper with its powerful Pursuit. Also, I think that reversing Venusaur's and Dragonite's roles would be more efficient for this team, since your team practically guarantees that the sun will be up for the rest of the battle. In addition, using a Choice Band Dragonite over your current set gives you a stronger ExtremeSpeed which can be exploited to revenge kill weakened boosting sweepers like Thundurus-T or Landorus as well as an Outrage that can be used to quickly decimate teams into little chunks that can be quickly swept by Venusaur.

    Now, this may be small, but I think that Roar simply does nothing on your Ninetales, courtesy of the Eject Button. Since your Ninetales lacks a somewhat reliable source of recovery, I'd like to see you use Pain Split over Roar on it. Pain Split gives your Ninetales a means of leeching HP from your opponents to recover for the minor scrapes it incurs throughout battle, making it easier for you to win the weather war. Also, I'm clearly aware that you are averse to making changes in your Wobbuffet's EV spread, but I think that using an EV spread of 28 HP / 232 Def / 248 SpD will help your Wobbuffet trap and kill more opponents more reliably. For instance, with your EV spread Garchomp easily 2HKOes, whereas with this EV spread, Garchomp can only 3HKO. Again, I know you will probably say no to this change, but it's something that you should just try out. A summarized list of changes can be found below.

    Set:

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Choice Band | Multiscale
    Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Outrage | Fire Punch | Superpower | ExtremeSpeed


    Nitpicks:
    • [​IMG]
      • Spikes ====> Gyro Ball
      • Bold nature ====> Relaxed nature
    • [​IMG]
      • Dragon Dance set ====> Choice Band set
    • [​IMG]
      • Roar ====> Pain Split
    • [​IMG]
      • 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD ====> 28 HP / 232 Def / 248 SpD

    Anyways, hope this helps. Good luck! I'll have to try that core out.
  10. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Hey Trinitrotoluene (that's a mouthful),

    Haha, shh! They'll notice! But yeah, I definitely used your RMTs as an inspiration to structure this as I think they're really good examples.
    I used Jellyka - Estrya's Handwriting for the sets.

    I've actually been testing this over the last couple of days and it is really great at not only protecting me from the two that you mentioned but also helps with breaking Dragonite's Multiscale if it got in without rocks up or simply hurting it if it tries to set up. I'm most probably going to keep Gyro Ball on there except I'll still miss the Spikes support.


    This is a rather interesting idea and I don't really know where I sit with it. Dragonite is my only physical attacker and I've never really considered for him to take on such a role. With my only two main attackers choiced it'd require quite a bit of prediction but this idea is definitely worth testing!

    I mainly had Roar on there to blow away Pokemon that try to set up on Ninetales. It also worked well with Wobbuffet's encore for things that I can't proceed to kill directly with one of my sweepers (i.e. a Kyurem with a sub, maybe). I'll try out Pain Split but I still think it's fairly unreliable.

    The only qualm of have with using such EV spreads is that it could make me miss out on retaliating hits back for a kill as well. For example, if something does 150 points of damage to Wobbuffet and I counter for 300 and they have a max of 280 HP, they die immediately. On the other hand, if, with my new defensive spread, they only manage to deal 120, I pretty much have to waste 240 health disposing of them rather than 150. This is a pretty sketchy example as I can't think of that many things that this applies to at the top of my head but leaving something on <10% after a CounterCoat leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm still going to try this but one of the other main reasons I used such a spread is because it helped me kill RP Landorus a bit easier since it can easily 6-0 my team. I think a slightly different spread than the one you suggested could be used (still the exact same idea) because I no longer need to hit a Leftovers number.

    Thanks for the massive rate and I will definitely try out all the things you suggested will take Wobbuffet, Forretress and (possibly) the Ninetales changes.

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