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Gen 2 RMT and Gen 2 on Pokemon Showdown!

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Bedschibaer, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    So appareantly PS! implemented a Gen 2 OU beta and it is so far working pretty much like the original games or the counterpart on PO. i decided to throw together a few teams and ended up peaking with one of those teams on number 1 of the ladder. I have to note that this ladder is dead. and with dead i mean really dead, it often takes hours to find a battle and only 6 (!) players managed to get a non-provisional rating. nontheless, i really like playing with this current team but i feel it needs quite some improvement


    [​IMG]
    Ampharos @ Leftovers
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Punch
    - Thunder Wave
    - DynamicPunch

    Ampharos is by far my favourite electric type in GSC OU. A great lead that catches many people off guard (due to low usage). It can hit many common spike leads, like Cloyster or Forretress, extremely hard. But its main purpose on the team is to spread status. Paralysis per se is a pretty underrated status effect because "speed is not the most important stat" in gen 2, but all of my games showed how this thing often won me games because paralyzing fast threats that otherwise counter some of my other pokemon. Dynamic Punch is here for a possible parafusion, to hit incoming Blisseys and Snoralx hard and to generally annoy people.


    [​IMG]
    Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
    - Body Slam
    - Heal Bell
    - Milk Drink
    - Growl

    The cleric of the team was kind of a no brainer. My team relies very much to controlling the games tempo, getting outstalled by toxic or being stopped by sleep is not what i want, i chose the growl set to have a check against snorlax. Body Slam is a nice stab move that can spread paralysis too and like i said on ampharos, Paralysis is my key to winning matches.


    [​IMG]
    Snorlax @ Leftovers
    - Double-Edge
    - Curse
    - Rest
    - Earthquake

    The undoubted king of GSC. Snorlax can turn a loss into a win and that is enough reason to use him on this team, classic curse set with EQ to hit gengar and misdreavous. I don't think i have to say anything more on this


    [​IMG]
    Exeggutor @ Leftovers
    - Sleep Powder
    - Stun Spore
    - Psychic
    - Explosion

    Exeggutor is a powerhouse and is capable of taking down at least one pokemon with only 2 attacking moves. I use exeggutor to spread more status and to explode on things that stop me from executing my strategy the most (that depends on the opponents team mostly). Exeggutor also packs quite a few useful resistances and without them my team would be screwed over extremely.


    [​IMG]
    Marowak @ Thick Club
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Hidden Power [Bug]

    The first one of my sweepers. Marowak is by far GSCs most dangerous powerhouse, his only big problem that usually prevents him from sweeping is his speed. Good thing i pack 3 possible paralysis inducers and 1 sleep inducer on my team. Marowak can even break through a weakened Skarmory at max attack (unless Ampharos hasn't taken care of that before). My premier win condition.


    [​IMG]
    Vaporeon @ Leftovers
    - Surf
    - Growth
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest

    Vaporeons insane SpDef and HP stats don't let it look like a sweeper, but this thing just sets up on common special attackers like Starmie, and all that can really threaten it should be (in the best case szenario) sleeping or paralyzed. with Resttalk it can absorb sleep and keep threatening things.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen2oubeta-46624697
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen2oubeta-47373942
    enjoy some replays and rant about my playing style


    I know this team is by far not perfect and i do realize some of my biggest problems. First the lack of a Phazer. I just couldn't cram one in, and i don't know what to take out for one, i tried playing around setupsweepers and Curse users which worked out most of the time, but sometimes not.
    Bellylax. Nothing on my team can really take a hit and usually something dies when facing a belly drum snorlax. even then it's often not in the range of being revenge killed.
    Nidoking. Good think mixed sweepers are barely used by anyone on PS! Gen 2. Yet. Nidoking and Tentacruel can screw over this team pretty hard.
    JoltWak. I know this strategy is barely seen because of how common phazers are and how predictable it is. oh wow a scizor, i wonder what it will do. oh, you have a Jolteon on your team, i wonder what this unrevealed pokemon will be. But my problem is, that when i see one, i don't really have a response to it, other than trying to hit the pass reciever as hard as possible.

    i hope some of you can give me useful hints on how to improve this team, and maybe i can battle some of you on PS! sometimes.
    dedic likes this.
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Game 1: In Vap dittos, you should only be Growthing up to +4, at which point you hit 954 SpA (near the 999 cap anyway) and can 3HKO the other Vap with Surf. Hydro Pump 3HKOs at +3.
    Game 2: You probably should have lost that one, but the Raikou crit was too strong. Otherwise you were probably dying to Spikes before you had a chance to pull off the Vap sweep.

    In theory, Nidoking shouldn't be too big a problem here. You have ST Vap, Miltank, and Snorlax, which are all able to handle it, not to mention that Marowak and Exeggutor can survive a hit and put a pounding on it. As for Drumlax, you just gotta keep the pressure up and keep attacking. If all else fails, Exeggutor is a good fallback against it.

    The overall strategy isn't bad. Ampharos tends to paralyze Raikou, which helps Vap out a lot. Having Hydro Pump on Vap would allow you to 2HKO Raikou at +1, which is very important, especially since you don't have Spikes to help Surf pull off that crucial +1 2HKO. The main problem I see is just a general lack of defensive solidness. Marowak contributes nothing defensively, and I notice that Miltank is the only source of Speed on your team, which makes it tougher to switch into foes until you've spread paralysis. Plus, no Phazer and no Normal Resist make you pretty weak to Snorlax, and no Spiker/Spinner means that if your opponent can shake off your initial paralysis rush (which isn't too difficult, especially not with ST Snorlax, ST Raikou, or Heal Bell support), you're losing in the long term.

    I think the most replaceable part of this team is Marowak. In your games it didn't look like he really got much of a chance to get in and do his damage. Even if Raikou hadn't roared him out all those times, Skarm and the Waters were going to prevent him from killing something before he died to Spikes. Ttar would be a very intuitive replacement, as it doesn't neuter your offensive hopes as much as Skarm or Steelix, still matches up well against Electrics, and gives you a Normal Resist/Phazer/check to Snorlax to boot. You could also run Pursuit on it to catch Ghosts, but I think a boring Curse + Roar set with EQ gives you the best shot at performing Ttar's primary functions on this team, which are countering Snorlax and forcing Zapdos/Raikou to switch out.

    Of course, Ttar makes you a bit weaker to Machamp. I guess Twave Zapdos over Ampharos would work, and would probably be a good change regardless of any Machamp problems. You don't NEED Amphy to deal with Electrics on this team, and Zapdos does just as good a job at getting Twave on Kou. Plus Zapdos offers more Speed to your team, a Spikes immunity to work with, and is ultimately just a matchups monster.

    I feel like, with these changes, the Snorlax set could be made less bland so that your offense can keep going in spite of the loss of 2 mixed attackers. Basically, by "less bland", I mean putting Fire Blast on it to get past Skarm, either over Curse or Earthquake.

    Normally, with a set like that on Egg, I'd be pretty afraid of Pursuit Ttar. With no Giga Drain, it comes in with impunity (even resisting Explosion unlike other Pursuiters) and just spams Pursuit until you die. However, I think Ttar isn't too big a deal on this team, as you have both Miltank and ST Vap (and, depending on what you do to Lax's set, EQ Snorlax) to deal with it, so feel free to double powder away!
  3. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    I am usually not trying to force a Raikou vs Vap matchup, marowak was supposed to finish off a paralyzed raikou, but yea, i kinda failed doing that (not only in that specific replay). I like the consistency of surf and a hydro miss could possibly stop a sweep, or not let it happen in the first place.
    the ttar instead of wak does solve most of my problems, i'll change that for sure, and i guess he can handle a paralyzed raikou pretty well.
    i don't really know what to put on a twave zapdos set, Thunder, twave, rest and hp ice? i mean i don't want to put sleep talk with twave, the odds of wasting a turn are too high for me. also would drill peck be a good idea to hit incoming blisseys or whatever?

    thanks for the help so far
    dedic likes this.
  4. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yeah, the Twave Zapdos set you listed is good. HP Water is also good when using Twave so Steelix doesn't get all up in your grill, but I personally prefer HP Ice even on Twave sets because Egg is much more of a threat.

    Marowak isn't killing Raikou because no Raikou in its right mind is staying in on Marowak. Vap is actually killing Kou because that thing actually willingly switches into Vap. Your Marowak is more likely to beat up on Suicune, paralyzed Skarm, and Exeggutor. Granted, all of this helps you, but again, how often is Marowak really switching in to do its damage?
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Steelix also isn't a huge threat to Zapdos in the first place. IMO the only Zap that should really bother with HPW is tri-attacking Drill Peck Zapdos.

    So much this.


    Miltank feels out of place with only two Resters and no Turbo Drumming.

    You need at least one phazer, because right now your team can be systematically disassembled by Umbreon and is really weak to Misdreavus.

    Despite your claims, your only real win condition right now seems to be Ampharos/Egg to remove Electrics + Vap sweep; try to think about how you're going to get past a hardcore stall team like Zapdos/Suicune/Skarmory/Miltank/Forretress/EQCurseLax. Ampharos sees Lax, Lax sees Tank, Egg sees Zapdos, Wak sees Skarm, Vap sees Cune, Tank sees Forry. The only two matchups there where you even have a sliver of hope are Wak vs. Skarm and Ampharos vs. Lax; however, neither Ampharos nor Wak can get health back so they'll almost certainly be killed through attrition before they can get through. Meanwhile, literally everything on the opposing team has recovery except Forretress, and you are not getting past Forretress with Growl Miltank's Body Slam. You can't break the stall, and you can't beat the stall at stalling, so you lose. Before you've started playing. :(

    Basically, there's more to offense in GSC than having offensive things in your team or having strong attacks; even a stall team has at least two extremely powerful attacks in Snorlax's Return/Double-Edge and Zapdos/Raikou's Thunderbolt/Thunder. Offense in GSC means you need to be able to break a stall team.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  6. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    well, i wouldn't want to run a team without a cleric, status can screw you over, no matter if it's an unexpected lovely kiss or paralysis (like what my team relies on)

    Yea, i already replaced Marowak with the Ttar Jorgen recommended. Tbh i haven't played enough battles with it yet to know if it works out the way i want to, but on paper it is a solution to most of my problems.

    Well, the matchups you listed are not in my favor, that is true, but it's not like you can force other matchups from time to time and use things to systematically let me win certain matchups, paralysis, sleep and explosion can IMO break through a team, and Exeggutor has never failed to take down at least one mon. Controlling the tempo, pulling off double switches in your favor etc can help and decide if i can break through a stall team. On paper many teams lose before even playing, but in reality it often comes different. Spikes does hurt my team alot, that is true, but since i ditched Wak already all of my mons have at least some passive recovery.
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  7. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Just fyi, a Heal Beller is not mandatory or anything.
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Actually, yes, it is like you can't force other matchups, because I'll switch in what I've indicated every time and you've no way to stop me. Egg sleeps Zapdos, which still walls it thanks to Sleep Talk. It won't sleep anything else even after Sleep Clause is back off because Zapdos switches into it every time.

    When I said that only a couple of those particular matchups weren't 100%, I was including switching in. You can't hit something if it doesn't stay in to take the hit. If you sleep, or Explode on, a counter that is NOT also required to block something else, all your Pokemon are still walled. This is why a good offensive team in GSC tries to make lots of things on its team require the same counter, so that one of them can Explode on it or sleep it to open up the others. An example would be Cloyster luring and Exploding on Starmie to open up Machamp, or LK Snorlax luring and sleeping Skarmory to open up Marowak.

    Not if your opponent doesn't even have to predict you. Which happens to be the case here. :(
  9. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    maybe i expressed it the wrong way. it's just a personal preferance to have a cleric on my team.

    oh, and i can't "indicate" every time? i can't write down your switch patterns or what? I mean don't get this the wrong way, but everyone makes predictions and everyone makes mispredictions, you can't know what is going on in your opponents mind exactly, that's just the way it is.
    dedic likes this.
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    You're not getting it. If you have Ampharos out, I'll switch Lax in. If you have Lax out, I'll switch Miltank in. Etcetera. As such, you won't hit anything other than what I want you to hit, because what I want you to hit is coming in - and if you double-switch, I'll just switch again the next turn, and the next, and the next, and because you can't 3HKO the things I'm bringing in, you'll never break them. That's what it means to be hard-walled by a stall team, and if you are indeed hard-walled, then no amount of prediction on your part or misprediction on mine can save you, because I can afford to be 100% reactive.

    When you have a team that is not hard-walled by a stall team, then things get interesting and prediction becomes a big factor. But if a stall team gets that perfect set of 6 hard-wall matchups, then you've lost.
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    It's not really hard-walled, though. You even said yourself that Ampharos can break Snorlax and Marowak (on the old version of the team) can break Skarmory, even if they have a pretty short window to do so before they die. (Also, Miltank takes significant damage from Snorlax DE, Zapdos from Egg Psychic, and last-Poke Vap wins versus that Suicune). Plus you have to consider the pot-shots that some Pokemon on that stall team will take while scouting before realizing the optimal 1-v-1 matchups, and of course paralyzed Pokemon will fail at inopportune times (for example, your Zapdos is paralyzed and at 90%. Switching into an Exeggutor Psychic is a 25% chance of being forced to show it something else because of an FP on the following turn).

    The pure 1-v-1 hardwalling from turn 1 doesn't really happen versus this team, or any team for that matter. That kind of thing is only really going to happen in an endgame scenario, typically between two opposing stall triangles of Raikou/Skarmory/Snorlax anyway.

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