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RMT Balance and Stall Sand Team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by CarnivorouSwarm, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. CarnivorouSwarm


    Aug 16, 2013
    This is my first (and currently only) team that I have something like 500 hours into at this point, mainly due to IV breeding. I will go ahead and admit that I'm still pretty new and despite having lots of battles with my friends using the team, I'm still very inexperienced and just looking for some advice to help balance what I have. So without further ado...

    I started building a team around two/three things...
    1. 551px-248Tyranitar.png because I knew I wanted permaSandstorm, and because I love TTar.
    2. A primarily steel type, but also ground and rock type team, because I'm a metalhead and wanted steel types, but also wanted to balance without taking damage from Sandstorm.
    3. Planning for a primarily Stall focused team, with a few sluggers to balance it all out into a middle-of-the-road kind of team that I could hope to use for just about anything.

    So I ran through some draft teams, and I hardly remember what my first lineup was at this point. Roughly, I think it was something like this:

    1. 551px-248Tyranitar.png Lead Attacker Tyranitar (Despot V) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP/ 40 Def/ 216 SpDef
    Careful nature (+SpDef, -SpAt)
    - Curse
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Brick Break

    The idea behind this TTar being to have a lot of bulk and come in to set up sandstorm immediately, and come back in to switch into fire type attacks and hit back with Stone Edge if need be. I didn't like this set long term, so I ended up breeding a new TTar and replacing this one, with...

    1. 551px-248Tyranitar.png Lead Attacker Tyranitar (Despot Rex) @Lum Berry
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 254 Atk/ 252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SpAt)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Outrage

    I'm much happier with this TTar, she wrecks shit, and has performed very well especially since switching out leftovers in favor of lum berry recently. I find she's much more versatile than her bulky counterpart and fulfills a much wider number of roles. The coverage provided by Stone Edge and Crunch has worked great for dealing with a number of common threats with STAB damage and a reliable 0HKO. Despite being an offensive set, she still works very well for switching in to resisted fire type attacks and hitting back on the next turn.

    I'll list the other pokemon I had on my old team in the event people think I should bring them back on to my current team since obviously I still have them waiting in the wings, but most I don't use anymore. Since I'm not using them I won't bother to go into much detail about their use unless people want me to explain what I was thinking. They were probably something like...

    2. 761px-530Excadrill.png Sweeper Excadrill @ Air balloon (this was before he was bumped to ubers)
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 HP
    Jolly nature (+Spe, - SpAt) [no idea why I didn't go for Adamant here, probably an error as it was the second pokemon I bred)
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Swords Dance
    - X-Scissor

    3. 800px-376Metagross.png Metagross @Life Orb
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 Atk/ 204 Spe/ 52 HP
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, - SpAt)
    - Agility
    - Meteor Mash
    - Earthquake
    - Zen Headbutt

    4. 598Ferrothorn.png Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 250 HP/ 208 SpDef/ 48 Def/ 4 Atk
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spe)
    - Power Whip
    - Gyro Ball
    - Curse
    - Protect

    5. 800px-227Skarmory.png Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpDef
    Impish nature (+Def, -SpAt)
    - Whirlwind
    - Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Brave Bird

    6. 462Magnezone.png Magnezone @ Air Balloon (obviously I didn't have this on him when Excadrill had it, not sure what I did there)
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 36 HP/ 252 SpAt/ 220 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spe, - Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Toxic
    - Flash Cannon
    - Volt Switch

    Magnezone does really well when dealing with Rain teams, and I'll often pre-emptively swap out Thunderbolt for Thunder, knowing Politoed is slower than TTar and allowing the rain to get set up, only to temporarily assist Magnezone's hard-hitting SpAt STAB before putting Sand back up. I've played with switching TWave out for Toxic, but I like having lots of poison opportunities to assist the stall.

    Magnezone's resistances allow him to switch in on predicted Ice moves directed at Gliscor or Cradily, predicted Steel moves directed at TTar, and it's weaknesses draw out ground type attackers for the switch back into Gliscor, all the while accumulating residual damage while the opponent is forced to switch around to find an attack that isn't heavily resisted or completely immune.

    So the lineup was initially
    551px-248Tyranitar.png 761px-530Excadrill.png 800px-376Metagross.png 598Ferrothorn.png 800px-227Skarmory.png 462Magnezone.png
    I ended up replacing everything but TTar slowly after tweaking the team here and there, and my current line up looks like this:

    1. Aforementioned TTar (Despot Rex)

    2. 472Gliscor.png Counter killer/Sweeper Gliscor @ Flying Gem
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 Def
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance
    - Acrobatics
    - Earthquake

    I'm really satisfied with how Gliscor has functioned. I managed to IV breed him effectively flawless, 31/31/31/5-7/31/31 with only special attack not maxed out. He's been great for switching into predicted Electricity and Ground type attacks with the immunity, as well as resisting fighting type attacks which plague my team, and hitting back hard with either STAB move.

    Leading with TTar usually means expecting either a fighting type counter to come out, or a TWave attempting to prevent TTar's DD, and switching into Gliscor predicting that fighting type often provides the time for at least Swords Dance, if not Sub+SD, she he has pretty good synergy with TTar, IMO. I don't anticipate switching him out anytime soon.

    3. 671px-213Shuckle.png Physical Wall Shuckle @ Chesto Berry (originally Binding Band)
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 SpDef/ 252 Def/ 4 HP
    Careful nature (+SpDef -SpAt)
    - Sand Tomb
    - Toxic
    - Power Split
    - Rest

    Despite how stupid it sounds, Shuckle has worked pretty amazingly for me. People always underestimate him and try to set up, only to find themselves hit with a power split, stuck with him because of Sand Tomb, and then toxic'd and taking sandstorm damage while Shuckle Rests off whatever damage or status he takes. I'm fairly content with him, although there have been a few times he's been knocked out sooner than expected.

    He's been great for switching into physical attacks, and the 50% boost to SpDef makes him viable for switching into special attackers too. He does a great job of completely neutering sweepers via Power Split. His NU status makes him all the more of a surprise when he starts locking in and pouring on the build up damage.

    4. 346Cradily.png Special Wall Cradily @ Yache Berry
    Ability: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 SpDef/ 4 Def
    Bold nature (+Def, - Atk)
    - Amnesia
    - Recover
    - Energy Ball
    - Toxic

    I was stuck between choosing Amnesia and Stockpile for the buffing move for a while, but ended up going for Amnesia relying on Shuckle for physical walling. Cradily is great for switching into predicted water type attacks and hitting back with the boosted Energy ball, since it can usually sponge whatever second hit it takes after switching in. This means Cradily is essentially the answer for any bulky water type, especially with toxic on the move set, it does a great job of coving for the others that have weaknesses to water. It's obviously super screwed in the face of Taunt whenever the opponent can resist Energy Ball, but in its role it's done pretty well for me.

    Having another stall pokemon with toxic has given the opportunity to sit and laugh at any pokemon without a poison immunity that needs time to set up. Without the ability to cut Cradily down quickly enough to ignore the Recover, offensive oriented pokemon find themselves crippled and needing to switch out.

    5. Aforementioned Magnezone

    6. 034Nidoking.png Special Attacker Nidoking @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpAt/ 252 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spe, - Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    I'm admittedly not in love with this Nidoking, primarily because I need to rebreed him for a maxed speed IV. This is just the fairly standard special attacker coverage set, to function as a versatile attacker ready for a number of threats with heavy damage.

    So my current lineup is
    551px-248Tyranitar.png 472Gliscor.png 671px-213Shuckle.png 346Cradily.png 034Nidoking.png 462Magnezone.png

    I haven't finished breeding it yet, but I'm leaning towards switching out Magnezone for...

    5. Support Special Wall Empoleon @ Big Root
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SpDef/ 252 HP/ 4 SpAt
    Calm nature (+SpDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Scald
    - Aqua Ring
    - Roar

    The idea of course being that my STALL team still lacks any entry hazards, which is a pretty big loss. I was also considering rebreeding a Ferrothorn with spikes and stealth rock, but liked the idea of having a water type STAB with the possibility of burning on the team, as well as Empoleon's defensive typing over Ferrothorn's.

    Overall Problems:
    - Fighting types are still a huge pain. Both of my walls, Shuckle and Cradily, still have a weakness to them, and my lead has a x4 weakness which essentially forces me to switch when there's even a possibility of a fighting type move on a pokemon that's faster than TTar. Switching into Gliscor with good timing and provided he's faster than the opposing pokemon is usually enough, as Acrobatics has never failed to deal with a fighting type quickly, but it'd be nice to have another option short of having one of my main attackers take damage just to save what's supposed to be a wall.

    - Fire types, although they can be dealt with neatly by TTar, are pretty much in the same place as fighting types, with the small plus that my walls are neutral to fire type moves. Shuckle has done a decent job of dealing with fire types in the past, but I don't like switching him into an attacker who is going to go straight for repeated hits rather than try to buff in front of Shuckle, as he needs a bit of time to set up the trap.

    - Bulky grass types with poison immunity have also been a problem. Answering Venasaur or Ferrothorn has been difficult, even with Nidoking waiting with flamethrower since he has trouble switching in to either of them.

    - Really not sure what pokemon to keep on the team, and who to switch out. I don't get to battle with friends often enough to find consistent problems with a 6 pokemon roster, and the battle subway is really only good at pointing out that I'm hard pressed to have an answer for everything with only three pokemon. I'm open to suggestions on a better way to balance my team.

    - Really in need of entry hazards I think. I'm not sure that Empoleon is the answer I'm looking for, as it'll only give me stealth rock, but I'm also open to suggestions. I'm sort of against putting Forretress on the team, since everyone and their mother has one, but I guess that's available to me as well.

    EDIT: I played around with my lineup in the simulator for a few hours and did better than I was expecting to. Probably won 8/10 battles, and only severely hampered by bulky grass types, as mentioned above. Need some additional answer to grass types immune to poison.

    Like I said at the beginning, I'm still pretty inexperienced, and I know a lot of this probably sounds pretty haphazard, so let me know what you think in all honesty, as long as it's constructive. "Start from scratch" probably won't help me much, as I basically have 11 pokemon to juggle, at least pick a few you think could stick around. Thanks!
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  2. CarnivorouSwarm


    Aug 16, 2013
    What sets do you think don't work? Could you give me more specific criticism?
    I'm pretty adamantly against switching out TTar for Hippowdon, and I really don't want to put Heatran on my team since I'm not a fan of using legendaries and can't IV breed him anyway.
    I'd never really considered Amoonguss or Slowbro, mainly because they'll take Sandstorm damage and don't really want my own tactic working against me.
  3. CarnivorouSwarm


    Aug 16, 2013

    1. I'll update the descriptions of Cradily and Shuckle a bit in a second, certainly they come off as not OU viable, which is part of their appeal to me. I'll also try to give a bit more explanation to synergy in general for each pokemon.
    2. I'm aware the way things are done on Smogon legendaries don't really matter, and IV breeding doesn't matter since everything's done on simulator. I don't really play on simulator, or honestly really care how things are done on Smogon, I'm just looking for some advice for my non-sim team, as all of my battling is done with real DS teams. Don't mean to sound like a jerk about it, but just voicing my personal preference on that one, even if it weakens my team in comparison to others in the Smogon community. It's sort of an unspoken rule that legendaries aren't used among the group where I'm using the team anyway.
    3. I'm aware that it's not just for residual damage, I just don't want my own tactic working against me, it looks bad. One of the teams I end up battling against frequently has a drizzle politoed lead, so Sandstorm is helpful for combatting that as well, not to mention the SpDef boost to rock types.

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