RMT Goodstuffs 2012, Possible NAT's Team

[Ravix]

I need to figure out what I want/need to outspeed with Mamoswine and adjust it's EV's accordingly. Giving it more bulk should help it survive longer.

Would you suggest Ice punch over EQ?

Also, HP Fire or Grass on Rotom. I know we already had this discussion, but with the recent changes to the team I want to know if the opinion has stayed the same or changed.

This, as well as Tailwind/Substitute on Latios.

If anyone can suggest alternative spreads for any of these pokes (To allow them to live through certain attacks while still returning Ko's/Damage) feel free to list them. :)

 

[Pocket]

I would simply keep max Speed on Mamoswine - it has Focus Sash anyways. The last thing you want is opponent's Heatran scoring a hit on your Mamo, just because it was faster.

I'd go with Tailwind on Latios and Protect > Tailwind on Zapdos.

Metagross or Infernape is a tough decision. Having Zapdos somewhat mitigates the need for Infernape, thanks to Heat Wave. Still Infernape's Speed and Fake Out can come in handy. However, Metagross's nifty resistances and natural bulk certainly comes in handy. You just have to test them out, and see which of them is more useful.

Earthquake is certainly a good spread move on a team with 3 levitators, but if you're looking for a replacement, I'd probably go with Meteor Mash for some solid STAB. I'd stick with EQ, though, since Tyranitar and Latios would appreciate opposing Steel-types removed.

EDIT: You may want to invest 84 Spe EVs on Metagross to outrun Jolteon after a Tailwind boost.

EDIT: I'd go with HP Fire on Rotom-W if you go with Metagross and HP Grass if you chose Infernape.

 

[Ravix]

Thanks for the suggestions! Haha. I'll switch those two around.

And I'll place the EV's onto Metagross as well, outspeeding things is a lot more useful than adding a few padded HP points.

What do you think about using Fling on Tyranitar as opposed to a Dark Gem Crunch? With Iron ball attached it would ensure that my weather would stick first in any kind of war as well as allowing me to go first in trick room. It also does 10 more base damage than a boosted Crunch.

Btw, what is "Tyrants"?

 

[Pocket]

Tyranitar is already slower than Politoed and Ninetales, so I doubt you need to worry about removing their weather with sand. Fling is also a one-time move, which is too risky, imo. Not worth the extra power. It's not a real solid answer to Trick Room anyways... just Crunch KO Cresselia and Reuniclus.

 

[Ravix]

Hmm, good point.

What do you think about switching Sitrus Berry for Water Gem on Rotom-W?

 

[pokemaster649]

With sitrus berry, rotom-w can survive a little longer. Water gem is for more of a aggressive rotom-w. Which one do you prefer, bulky or offensive rotom-w.

 

[JaeSun]

I personally prefer using Thunderbolt on Latios, gives better coverage but you do lose out on Substitute :/

 

[Ravix]

I've been coached a little bit and have been given a few interesting suggestions.

Namely, replacing Latios with Salamance, replacing Mamoswine with Cresselia, and replacing rotom-w with Gastrodon.

What do you think about these choices?

From what I've studied and tested on these changes, I gain the benefit of intimidate and heat wave coverage from Salamance losing only due to speed. Though beating Garchomp if I can get intimidate off. Hp flying deals with fighting types. Dragon Gem boosted draco still rocks anything that it touches.

I've been finding myself using Mamoswine less and less with Metagross being added onto the team. It was suggested I switch him out to Cresselia and go for a Swagger + Lum berry combo. Meteor Mash, Bullet, EQ, protect. Since Cresselia can handle the psychic duties as well as slow down other threats with T-wave. She also resists sleep with chesto berry and rest gives her a way to stay in for a long period of time.

This also opens up room for using focus sash on tyranitar over dark gem, but I'm not too sure on that one. It would allow me to put my points in speed instead of HP though.

Gastrodon is the one change I'm having trouble figuring out, with protect/scald/earth power/icebeam(Icy wind). I could see Icy wind being a huge help to my speed problem with Salamance, but Icebeam is also very nice. Do you you think storm drain would work out better than Rotom-w? I'm not sure how much Water damage I would be taking, but it would be a nice thing to be able to throw out there. Being damage only by grass types, which my team can handle fine.

With intimidate support on Salamance it allow me to invest more heavily into special defense, making the team more bulky overall.

That just leaves me with Zapdos, I question what I should do with him. His Stab Electric Gem thunderbolt does massive damage as well as his heat wave covering some of my weaknesses. But with Heat wave on Salamance.. Do you think Rotom-W would be a nice switch for him?

I've been given a lot of really strong information in only a few short hours, I guess what I really want are more opinions.

 

[Pocket]

Metagross / Gastrodon / Tyranitar / Cresselia indeed make up for quite a formidable defensive core. Couple it with Salamence's Intimidate and it's like a fortress. Cresselia and TTar together can tank most special abuse other than Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, which Gastrodon captures for the ally.

Zapdos is certainly useful for removing Water-types, which may not be easy to take down, so I would probably keep it. I'd consider Hydro Pump on Salamence over HP Flying, which lets Salamence have a good chance at 2-shotting TTar with HPump (42-50%) followed by Dragon Gem Draco Meteor (55-65%). This is with Modest Nature, btw. Fighting-types are demolished by Draco Meteor anyways. If you still want the second STAB, though (which is hitting weaker than Hydro Pump against a neutral target), then I suggest replacing Heat Wave for Hydro Pump, since you do have Zapdos.

I still think Salamence is better off replacing HP Flying for Hydro Pump, though, for better neutral coverage. I would also consider Fire Blast over Heat Wave, to really hit the Steel-types hard that needs to be taken out; an un-stabbed Heat Wave is kinda weak, imo. Zapdos can provide you with the spread fire move if you need one.

I think you may end up missing out on Latios's Speed (now Infernape, Terrakion, Zapdos, Mienshao, Latios, and Gengar has a chance of taking Salamence out), but it's worth testing out Salamence's Intimidate and arguably better special movepool.

 

[Ravix]

With Salamence's intimidate I can just build Gastro and Cress Special def wise and allow them to be ridiculously tanky. I feel as if I would be able to take out most of the threats to Salamance before I would see him used. With thunder-wave on Cress I could lead with Meta-Cress for prime slowing and Swagger + Lum abuse. They all have really good coverage of each other, tanking hits aimed at each other and letting me weaken them with intimidate and Thunder-wave.

I like the idea of Hydro pump and Fire Blast on Salamence. Heat wave has a chance of missing already and that extra power will ensure ohko's on most things I would be using it against and like you said Zapdos already has the spread move.

Do you think tailwind is a good choice to keep on Zapdos over say Hp ice or Flying?

Since Salamance is slower than most pokes, running modest would be ideal to give him more oomph since I'd be relying on certain threats being taken out before hand or being slowed down.

Metagross becomes quite the hitter with Swagger + lum berry and meteor mash. Killing just about everything with EQ's and Meteor/Bullets. I can also use Metagross to switch in Dragon attacks aimed at Salamance. And then to Gastro for attacks aimed at Metagross.

The more I look at this line up the stronger I find it to be.

I don't have to worry about Hitmontop as Salamance as it's sucker punch does little if anything to me, especially after intimidate. Out of all those you said who would outspeed me, not very many of them have the ability to ohko salamance at all. Spare latios and maybe HP ice on some of them. Latios can just be para'd for an easy ko later, or crunched by Tyranitar.

What do you think about Tyranitar? Focus sash or Dark gem?

I've also been testing out counter over Low kick, but it seems situational.

 

[Pocket]

I think Tyranitar is too bulky for a Focus Sash. You may want to go with Chople Berry, which actually gives it a decent chance to even survive unboosted STAB Close Combats, such as from an Adamant Hitmonlee (92-109%; 44% survival). That's only if you're looking for a protective option over an offensive option, though.

If you don't see yourself using Low Kick, you may consider Thunder Wave, which would actually allow TTar to flinch stuff with its Rock Slide. Counter seems like a good alternative, too, which is probably why you were asking about Focus Sash on Ttar? I'd probably go with Chople Berry before Sash, but test both of them out.

Also, make sure you don't use Hydro Pump on Salamence when it's paired with Gastrodon, unless you want to boost the slug's Special Attack :p

For Zapdos, Tailwind seems more useful in general, but HP Ice is certainly useful for hurting Dragon-types, especially Garchomp. I would test both of them out.

 

[Ravix]

What stat (in addition to Attack) would you say Tyranitar would benefit from more?

Focus sash and berry seem like they would pair well with A higher Speed stat. While Dark Gem looks better with HP. I wouldn't think his SDef would need anything due to Sandstorm. Chople berry definitely seems better as it would reduce fighting damage (which would be the cause of him getting hit hard anyway, spare steel moves).

I guess the main problem/challenge would be figuring out which mons to bring to the table against what opponents.

Could make a section dedicated to that probably.

I'll test out both tailwind and Hp ice and see which one works better, though I can only see zapdos coming in against Rain teams and the like.

~~Also, would Gastrodon be better with Leftovers or Rindo Berry?
Alternating those two between Protect and Recover.

As for low kick, I find myself using it against other T-Tar and the likes of Snorlax and such. I'm not sure which would hit harder though. I guess spreading him to survive attacks from those guys would make counter better, but is risky without calculation.

And yeah, i've seen some people Hydro when they have Gastro out. Funniest thing in the world. Kind of like using Thunderbolt when you have a Rhyperior out. XD

 

[Pocket]

TTar is better off investing in its bulk than Speed, imo. You can possibly bump its speed up to 92 Speed to out run 4 Spe Metagross, Breloom, Hitmontop, but that honestly wont accomplish much, unless you have Fire Blast / Fire Punch for the first two. You can give it 86-87 Speed to be faster than Scizor, but again you wont be doing much without a Fire move. If you run Low Kick, you can hit other TTars faster by running 12 Spe EVs. TTar wants 90 Speed if it wants to be faster than Thundurus after a Tailwind.

I would avoid going overboard on the Spe EVs, since TTar will still be slower than most Pokemon anyways, making defensive EVs to be a better investment in general (especially if you want to run Counter). Unless you are planning on using him as a Tailwind Sweeper, rather than a Tank, I probably wont go more than 12 Spe EVs to beat other TTars with Low Kick. If you're using Counter or T-Wave, then there's really no point in investing in Speed.

 

[Ravix]

I changed the speed on T-Tar to 12 and put the rest in Def. With chople he should be living pretty long.

My current spread on Zapdos is 112 Def/252 SAtk/146 Spd
To outrun Max speed modest Kingdra and Ludicolo outside of Rain as well as add some Defensive bulk. I"m thinking of changing the Def EV's to Sdef or Hp though.

What do you think about that?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also did a bit more thinking and came up with Volcarona and Thundurus over Zapdos and TTar.

Volcarona get's free set-ups on rotom-W with Gastrodon and has access to STAB Heat Wave and Bug buzz. Thundurus has Prankster which allows him to T-wave really quickly. Removing a lot of pressure vs Rain teams + a possible Electric Gem Thunderbolt, protect on the third slot but really a toss up on the fourth.

What do you think about those mons compared to T-Tar and Zapdos?
I lose out on Rock slide and Low kick and Gain Bug buzz, T-wave, Faster T-bolt.

 

[Pocket]

Unless you have something in mind with those defensive EVs, I'd put them into HP instead to bolster both defenses, not solely physical (240 HP EVs for TTar; 108 HP / 4 Def for Zapdos).

Losing TTar means you sacrifice some major special defense and weather control. Volcarona provides some powerful Fire and Bug offense to the mix, which comes in handy against Steel-types and Cresselia, but you would need to be careful against common Rock Slide users. Unless you're having trouble against defensive Steel-types, I wouldn't bother using Volcarona, which may require some additional support (like Wide Guard).

Thundurus > Zapdos is an option, providing you some much needed Speed for this team. You do lose out on Heat Wave and Tailwind, though, which I personally feel is more useful.

Go ahead and test them out, though.

 

[Ravix]

I'll switch the EV's on Zap and T-Tar, boosting both does sound better than just one.


And yeah, losing T-Tar does get rid of my weather control. I would have to rely on Thundurus for T-wave support to get through a lot of things. If I added Volcarona as well I would switch Cresselia for Hitmontop. He could run Fake out/Close/Combat/Wide Guard/Sucker punch with a fighting gem. Volcarona could replace Zapdos' heat wave while adding sweep potential with bug buzz and Quiver dance.

He would draw in Psychic attacks so I could just switch him to metagross for resisted attacks. Add Zen headbut over Meteor Mash because there wouldn't be a swagger + lum combo and because i would be lacking a psychic attack.

The switch to hitmontop would also give me intimidate since that core wouldn't be used with Salamance as well as giving me a fighting attack that I would lose from T-Tar.

These are just thoughts, I'll test them both out and see which I like more. Though i could use some help with spreads and deciding what to use for Thundurus' 4th move slot.

 

[pokemaster649]

Just want to know, what division are you in? Btw, for thundurus ev spreads (there are two I thought of). The first one is a more aggressive thundurus (4 hp, 252 sp. atk, 252 spd). The second one is a more bulky thundurus (252 hp, 252 sp. atk, 4 spd). The move set for thundurus (the aggressive one) are hp ice, thunderbolt, thunder wave, sub/protect. The bulky one's move set is hp flying or ice, thunderbolt, thunder wave, sub/protect. Basically, their move sets are pretty much the same. And yeah go for zen headbutt on meta. Move set on hitmontop is fine.

 

[Ravix]

I used Bluecookies moveset on Thundurus, though i switch the def and Sdef ev's around. So I've got both teams figured out now.

It's time to test matchups and pokemon combo's VS. other team types.

Also, I'm in Masters.

 

[pokemaster649]

Huh, I guess you like bluecookies's set, I'm fine with that. If you want to test, try me (since I also need some testing) for a battle.

 

[Ravix]

I'm on the VGC server almost every day after work. Just shoot me a message.

 

[pokemaster649]

Did you mean the skarmbliss server? And what time do you you usually get out of work?

 

[Ravix]

After 3, and yeah. I'm up for a few matches right now if you're available.

 

[uxsee]

Choose metagross, it is so freakin awesome in vgc. It will also help you withh cresselia and has great synergy with rotom-w and latios. Put sub on latios, owns hitmontop/bisharp/ t-wave cresselia. Use hp fire on rotom, unless you hate gastro.