Gen 1 RMT RBY OU: Tanklax

[Dre89]

Exeggutor

Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
Psychic
Explosion

He's there really to take sleep. Sleeping something as well is a bonus. I usually blow him up on chansey if I sleep their eggy. I was thinking of dropping psychic for DE to hit specials, but I normally switch out against them anyway.


Alakazam

Psychic
Thunder Wave
Reflect
Recover

He's mainly there for gengar and to revenge KO. I can't decide between reflect and seismis toss.

Chansey

Thunder Wave
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Softboiled

I initially had reflect, but dropped it for thunderbolt to scare starmie and kinda help against slowbro.

Rhydon

Earthquake
Rock Slide
Body Slam
Hyper Beam

Hyper beam is for eggy, who obviously will come in on this a lot. I use him to KO parad chanseys.

Snorlax

Amnesia
Reflect
Body Slam
Rest

This is the core of the team. I usually try to get him in as soon as my sleep clause is activated.

Tauros
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Blizzard
Earthquake

Pretty straight forward. Basically just bring him out to clean up once lax is done putting holes in their team.


Basically, the idea behind this team is to take sleep with eggy, then get lax in as soon as possible and start doing damage. Zam is there for gengar, who hard counters this tanklax. Once lax is done, tauros cleans up. Rhydon provides a physical alternative if lax goes down early.


This is my staple non-wrap team (which I use more than my wrap-team anyway). The biggest problems this team has to the best of my knowledge are wrap and slowbro. Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

 

[shrapn3l]

you can use starmie over zam which helps with slowbro and is better against cloyster since it's not like having zam stops gengar from walling snorlax. gengar will maybe be reluctant to blow up on chansey/egg (assuming this is what you are afraid of) if you have tank lax (and rhydon) and if it's not then having it out of the way is good anyway. nice team very average.

 

[Dre89]

I'd be happy for gar to blow up, it won't though if it sees my tanklax. The idea behind zam is that gar will always run from zam, which I could try to use to maintain pressure.


I've thought about starmie, but then what do I do about gengar coming in on my lax? I guess I could try to para it then bait tbolt with starmie then go to rhydon.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Gengar does wall your Lax, but it can't actually kill it due to its lack of STAB, and will be PP-stalled into using Explosion.

I'd be very scared of Slowbro with Withdraw, however. Very, very scared.

Consider Kinesis on Zam to give your Lax a free switch-in - the hardest hits it'll take will be the first couple. Wrappers can do the same thing.


EDIT: Dre, Psychic Starmie can surprise Gengar (and, if it crits, OHKO it), whereas it'll always switch out of Zam because Psychic's a given on Zam.

 

[Dre89]

Gar is likely to penetrate with a crit before it stalls given its speed. I think stalling all of its moves without being done in by crits is pretty unrealistic.

Most bros run twave, and if not that they run reflect. I've never seen withdraw on bro before, but yeah that would give my lax problems.

Kinesis is inferior to reflect and stoss in my opinion. Plus, lax sets up pretty easily on most things, especially after a sac. The problem isn't setting it up, it's dealing with its counters.

 

[shrapn3l]

if gengar has mega drain go to chansey/exeggutor, if it has seismic toss go to chansey/rhydon. if it has confuse ray then ha ha. for the majority of the game those are preferable to going to zam anyway.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Gar is likely to penetrate with a crit before it stalls given its speed. I think stalling all of its moves without being done in by crits is pretty unrealistic.

So? It doesn't have STAB and its strongest move is BP 95. I'm not sure it 3HKOs even with a crit.

 

[Crystal_]

Gengar needs double crit tbolt to put lax in the ko range of NS/ST/Explosion (around 4.6% chance per try).

Actually, I am surprised that someone who sees tanklaxes in every battle and considers tanklax the best lax set doesn't run rest on Rhydon.

 

[Dre89]

I'd rather hbeam for eggys. Besides, they'll just go to a counter and leave me with a sleeping rhydon.

I do need to get a dedicated counter to it on this team though. I have them on my wrap team.

 

[Crystal_]

But that Snorlax isn't going to do shit to you then. If Snorlax switches out, all its boosts are gone, that was the point, wasn't it? Forcing lax out will give you another chance to beat it the next time it switches in before it sets up. And Rhydon will be able to wake up again every time your opponent switches Snorlax in. Sure, Rhydon will be letting dangerous stuff switch-in for free, but that Snorlax is gonna be forced to rest eventually as well, and actually before than rhydon does since bslam is hitting rhydon for 12% and eq's hitting snorlax for 18%.
3hkoing exeggutor is an extremely situational thing compared to walling the "best moveset" of the second best pokemon in rby.

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah I'd say Starmie > Alakazam for Slowbro. And I'd let Starmie/Zam rather than Egg take the sleep, personally.

Gengar isn't too much of a worry because Snorlax will PP stall Gengar. Tbolt crits don't doom you at all unless you take two of them. I'd be most afraid of things like Counter/Reflect Chansey/Snorlax, Rest Cloyster, Rest Rhydon, Double Boom, Kingler and Persian, tbh.

 

[Dre89]

The problem with letting starzam take sleep is that I then have no speed outside of tauros and will get owned by wrap.

I want to put victreebell on this team, but I don't know what to drop. Eggy seems like the natural choice but bell is too valuable to take sleep and then I have nothing to switch into rhydon except starmie.

 

[shrapn3l]

it makes less of a difference than you think. starmie is a good switch against cloyster (good pokemon) and fire spinners (shitty pokemon), and that's it. whether it's asleep or not doesnt make TOO much of a difference in that respect, your opponent will just have a few more free switches/free clamps when they happen to miss. being asleep is probably better than being paralyzed, let's put it that way. the only new problem that arises if starmie is asleep is dragonite can set up on it for free. i dont think it makes much of a difference what you let take the sleep really. if you really want to put thought into it though i also think it's important to consider how common wrap teams actually are and how common non-wrap teams are. i have not been playing recently so i don't "know" but traditionally non-wrap teams have been much more common...

 

[Dre89]

Wrap teams aren't common at the moment because a lot of the senior players on PO don't like wrap and therefore don't use it. I think it will become more common as time goes on though.

 

[magic9mushroom]

i have not been playing recently so i don't "know" but traditionally non-wrap teams have been much more common...

Cloyster's pretty common on PO nowadays, and Cloyster invariably has Clamp. I've seen a few Bells, but not many, and Bell's not always a Wrapper (Sleep Powder + Swords Dance being the other set). Nite's still pretty rare, because it's just so hard to set it up without getting paralysed or hit with an Ice-type attack.

 

[shrapn3l]

i meant full wrap teams/teams focused on wrap (2-3 wrappers). cloyster will always be everywhere because it's the best.

 

[magic9mushroom]

i meant full wrap teams/teams focused on wrap (2-3 wrappers). cloyster will always be everywhere because it's the best.

It's not like there's some massive gulf between "Wrap teams" and "non-Wrap teams", though. There's no synergistic effect from running lots of Wrappers as opposed to one or two.

Best what?

 

[shrapn3l]

you are being a total goof

there is a difference between having a wrapper on your team as a sweeper (victreebel, dragonite) or a defensive tool (cloyster),

and having a team that is focused around wrap. the problem with wrappers is they DONT have synergy so with 3 or more of them you are relying on wrap/clamp hitting to capitalize on free switches to your other wrappers and from there you either keep wrapping, forcing switches and getting free switches; or you start setting up paralysis so that hopefully one of your wrappers can begin to sweep.

so if you have only one or two wrappers, your team functions pretty much the same as any other team, but you'll have say dragonite or victreebel as a sweeper in addition to (sometimes in place of, if you're a freak) your usual tauros. you'll basically be treating your dragonite/victreebel as you would any other sweeper, like jolteon, persian, whatever. keep them hidden until late in the game and then if you see an opportunity get them in and sweep, but if not you have alternative goals and win conditions.

on the other hand, if your team has 3 or more wrappers, you are sacrificing defensive synergy for more sweepers. wrap becomes both the primary win condition and the means of setting up your win condition, because you can't switch in things like victreebel and dragonite easily without those free turns from wrap.

cloyster doesn't work in the same way as the other wrappers because it handles tauros/snorlax and can contribute to any rby team's defensive core. you're generally not trying to save it for late game, partially because you'll need it to take hits, also because clamp is not as reliable, and also because it can explode. in the meantime, you can use clamp to set up free switches, which are beneficial to any team, but, again, key to wrap teams where half or more of your team is a potential sweeper, because wrappers cannot afford to take hits or status until you have an idea of what you are going to sweep with.

even without clamp, cloyster is the best switchin for tauros and standard snorlax. when clamp is allowed it's just that much better and gets a lot more usage over lapras than it would otherwise. so as long as wrap is allowed you will probably see it a lot, and this is cool to me because it is a pokemon that i like. that is what i mean by it is "the best" i do not literally think cloyster is the best anything so relax @_@ although it is probably the most consistently used and most consistently useful wrapper and i guess i also favor it over the other OU water types although starmie is the true "best" (but also a completely different role player).

 

[Dre89]

3 wrappers is probably overkill unless the third wrapper is nite.

Also I don't agree that two wrappers= one controller and one sweeper. It's perfectly viable to have two wrappers as mid-game controllers, and just use tauros to sweep.

I think cloyster is kind of overrated as a switch in to tauros and lax. Good players get their normals in for free hit-and runs mid-game. If closyter gets parad, he basically has to rest to fulfill his role on the team, because it's not as if the normals will be staying in on him. Tauros also has a pretty good chance of breaking through sleeping cloys with crits as well. He's still decent as a mid-game controller with because he's an excellent switch in to chansey's ice beam. If he blows up on starmie, then one wrapper is probably enough to control the battle because most teams only have 1-2 pokemon other than tauros who are faster than wrappers.

SD sets are a waste of victreebell's potential. Double powder wrap sets can do a lot of damage mid game, plus its great for countering bro and tanklaxes.

The only wrapper that should be saved for end-game sweeping is nite.

 

[shrapn3l]

the third wrapper is always nite. usually just vic/cloyster/nite are used but sometimes people use tangela and tangela is not bad tbh. some also lead with moltres which can be scary but in the long run moltres is garb.

it's never as clear cut as "one controller one sweeper." it's just "control the game until you either lose or can sweep," same as any other team. the difference is if you have more wrappers you have to rely on wrap much more to control the game as opposed to, or in addition to, your usual defensive pivots and double switches and whatnot. because you NEED the free switches to keep the wrappers healthy. teams with 3 or more wrappers often forgo tauros but of course i am not outlining the "wrap team rules" here or anything of course tauros is a viable sweeper anywhere but obviously you aren't going to be sweeping with all of your pokemon at once and you can't choose what you are going to sweep with at random at the very beginning of the game. the point is if you have more wrappers you need free switches so you need to use wrap the whole game because you can't play the whole game with just 3 pokemon and hide all of your wrappers... and it doesn't matter which one ends up sweeping. the whole point is that your offense is flexible.

victreebel is a fine endgame sweeper but of course dragonite is better

as for cloyster are you saying it is NOT the best switchin to them or are you just saying it is "overrated?"

ideally of course you only NEED one other wrapper because not only will you be blowing up on starmie every time but also the game will go just as planned and everything on your opponent's team will be paralyzed and you'll never miss but unfortunately this is the real world son and none of that ever happens so having multiple wrappers can be handy not only for controlling the game midgame but also for providing you with a backup sweeper in case you need to sac one of your wrappers to paralyze something or in case you actually do miss. you can't always rely on tauros to do a wrapper's job brother.

 

[magic9mushroom]

even without clamp, cloyster is the best switchin for tauros and standard snorlax.

No, that's Lapras. Lapras has a stronger STAB Blizzard, isn't as vulnerable to surprise Thunderbolts, and is capable of parafusion, while Cloyster can't paralyse and sucks at confusion. Cloyster also poses little threat to a Starmie switch-in, whereas Lapras can carry Thunderbolt.


Your insults aside, my point is that because there's no synergism between Wrappers, you can't divide teams into "Wrap" and "non-Wrap". There's a continuum, because even between Wrappers there are different levels of "Wrappiness"; the AgiliWrappers Moltres and Dragonite are more reliant on their trapping moves than Victreebel and Cloyster. You can talk about "Wrap-heavy" teams, but you can't talk about "Wrap teams" and "non-Wrap teams" like there's any sort of qualitative difference. "Wrapper" is a role, the same as "special sweeper" or "sleeper" is a role, and there are various things that fulfill that role; they have varying effectiveness both at Wrapping and in their other roles. You can have any number of things that fulfill that role, and your team's playstyle necessarily changes upon having more of them; that's not the same as a binary divide.

 

[Crystal_]

No, that's Lapras. Lapras has a stronger STAB Blizzard, isn't as vulnerable to surprise Thunderbolts, and is capable of parafusion, while Cloyster can't paralyse and sucks at confusion. Cloyster also poses little threat to a Starmie switch-in, whereas Lapras can carry Thunderbolt.

There is just 20 bp difference, not that much, and cloyster's slightly higher crit chance sorta makes up for that. It's a matter of which pokemon is more threatening in each scenario if you are into that. If Cloyster is being walled by Starmie or Lapras is being walled by Chansey, you might as well consider double-switching or clamping with cloyster and switch out later. Of course double-switching is always a risk because it's not that Tauros/Snorlax macth up all that bad against lapras/cloyster so they could stay in and body slam away, and if you mispredict, you are going to take an unnecessary stab Body Slam and possibly be put in a bad match-up again.
Going for cray luck against chansey is always a gamble that will not always go well, and lapras won't really like to take a t-wave, which will likely happen at the very least unless you get really lucky. Especially if your opponent can still play around lapras with another recoverer (zam or starmie) going for crayslam may not be as effective of a strategy. I mean, it's not that lapras has a lot more extra weapons than cloy to deal with checks, in fact lapras can't explode or clamp. It's difficult to 100% claim that one is better than the other at threatening switch-ins.

 

[Jorgen]

Lapras is a much bigger threat in its own right.

Cloyster is more of a team player, but he is fabulous at it.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Lapras is a much bigger threat in its own right.

Cloyster is more of a team player, but he is fabulous at it.

Oh, I agree, but shrapn3l was saying that Cloyster was better even without Clamp, which is horse puckey.

 

[Borat]

He actually never says that at all.

You know, for a self-proclaimed beginner, you sure are pretty closed minded.