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Gen 2 RMT: You all know I don't like Snorlax, so here I am not using it

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jorgen, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    All right. So I've been tinkering around, trying to find a reason NOT to use Snorlax in GSC, and the best reason I can think of is that you already have 3 Fighting-weaks, like the support that each of those uniquely provides, and do not want to get rid of one for Snorlax. More than 3 Fight Weaks makes you go from "threatened by Machamp" to "absolutely destroyed by Machamp", so you really don't want more than 3 (ideally no more than 2, but most of the best GSC mons are Fighting-weak so that can be tough). The team below is nothing revolutionary or anything, it's my attempt at building more or less a standard team that (hopefully) stands up on par with teams that run Snorlax without using Snorlax itself.

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    -Thunder
    -Hidden Power [Ice]
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk

    Standard Sleep Talk Zapdos, it's my lead but actually the last thing I added to the team. It absorbs sleep for the team, makes a good mixed tank for a lot of threads (including Nidoking, who can really threaten the team otherwise), and acts as one of two checks to Vaporeon on this team. Not much to say, Zapdos patches holes and hits things hard, it's the ultimate splashable Pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Tyranitar @ Leftovers
    -Rock Slide
    -Fire Blast
    -DynamicPunch
    -Pursuit

    Standard Pursuit Tyranitar, except maybe for DynamicPunch over Earthquake. One of the three non-Lax Fight-weaks. DPunch is inaccurate and means I miss out somewhat on damage against Raikou/Nidoking, but I consider relevant damage against Miltank, Umbreon, and (especially) Snorlax to be more important, plus confusion coupled with Thunder paralysis thanks to Zapdos can allow me to weasel my way into kills I have no business getting otherwise. Other than that, it can kind of sort of help me to take Exeggutor and Ghosts out of the picture, although I in no way want to rely on it because Tyranitar is vulnerable to status and simply being worn down. Regardless, Pursuit is a unique bit of support that Tyranitar provides and Snorlax cannot.

    Admittedly, my description betrays the fact that I'm not terribly high on Tyranitar, and Pursuit isn't game-breaking support or anything, so a Snorlax here might improve the team. Regardless, Ttar is a little more effective at luring opposing Cloys so I can damage them and win the Spikes war, in addition to actually killing (instead of switching into and forcing out) opposing Ghosts to permit the use of Rapid Spin, and less obviously being able to get chip damage on fliers (Zapdos and Skarmory) that are otherwise invulnerable to Spikes. Plus, he resists Explosion, so it makes life tougher on Gengar and Exeggutor trying to break my defenses open, all while providing the offensive presence that Snorlax would. Also, Ttar provides a second Normal resist, thereby allowing me to reliably check Lovely Kiss Drumlax.

    [​IMG]
    Cloyster @ Leftovers
    -Surf
    -Toxic
    -Spikes
    -Rapid Spin

    Standard Spiking Cloyster, with Rapid Spin support. Toxic will nail Starmies and Snorlax, against whom I otherwise have no recourse, with eventually-crippling residual damage. The second of three non-Lax Fight-weaks. Obviously, its main purpose is getting Spikes down, and Spikes is something that Snorlax cannot do for me. Rapid Spin makes it much more effective at fighting opposing Cloyster and allows me to actually punish other Cloys for being reckless about switching into Toxics, as without Rapid Spin there's little reason for Cloyster to keep switching in and eventually die to poison damage, and there's certainly no way to "win" the Spikes war, I'm fighting instead to at best draw at +1/+1.

    [​IMG]
    Miltank @ Leftovers
    -Body Slam
    -Growl
    -Milk Drink
    -Heal Bell

    Standard Heal Bell Miltank, it offers Heal Bell which Snorlax cannot do. Thanks to Tyranitar, its lack of coverage moves to dissuade dangerous Ghost-type switch-ins less scary. Heal Bell helps my Ttar and especially Cloyser in return by allowing them to play a bit more recklessly around potential Toxics. I also have a Pokemon below that appreciates Heal Bell support to wake it up from Rests. This Pokemon is one of my checks to Curselax (Ttar doesn't quite count, he can't switch into a Curse because DPunch does not do enough to +1 Lax), and also against Rhydon/Steelix/CurseTar, who can otherwise be somewhat problematic, and of course is my main switch-in to Nidoking once Zapdos has taken Sleep.

    [​IMG]
    Raikou @ Leftovers
    -Thunder
    -Hidden Power [Ice]
    -Roar
    -Rest

    Roar Raikou lets me do work with Spikes down. Thunder is for extra damage against Lax (a Poisoned Lax switching into Spikes is guaranteed to be KOed by two straight Thunder hits at 70% health, Thunderbolt only guarantees this at 59%), Hidden Power Ice stops me from wasting Thunder PPs against Zapods while also giving me Ground coverage and Exeggutor, too. Exeggutor is more immediately threatening, whereas Steelix generally requires a favorable endgame to really get going, so I prioritize hitting the former with HP Ice over hitting the latter with HP Water. Also, note Double Electrics. They form my anti-Vaporeon core and, of course, without Lax, I may as well use the clear #2 and #3 together to keep up with the Joneses. Plus, double-electrics stop random Waters like Starmie and Suicune from actually being a threat, which is ridiculous.

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    -Drill Peck
    -Toxic
    -Whirlwind
    -Rest

    Counters Snorlax, counters Marowak, counters Exeggutor, checks Rhydon/CurseTar somewhat with Toxic. Without Curse, it can't wall last-Poke Lax, but I have GrowlTank for that if it ever materializes as a threat (the aim is to kill it with Toxic + SpikesRoar at some point anyway), so I prefer Toxic so that I can make some semblance of progress when Skarm goes active. Skarm is pretty necessary on SpikesRoar centric teams like this, imo, so that Cloyster can set up on a Cursing Curselax and then duck out to let Skarm Phaze it right out. Even Fire Blast Laxen can't KO it on the spot (without a crit, of course) if it uses a +3 DE on the switch, so Cloy can even afford to switch in, toss out Spikes, and even using Toxic to wear down the Lax before going out to Skarm.


    There's obviously issues with the team, but what do people think of the concept? Is this team on par with teams that use Lax (or does it at least offer something significant that just slapping a Lax on top of it would mess up), or does it still fall short in important ways? If Lax would improve the team, who would you replace for it? And what do you think would be a better way to go about making a no-Lax team to compete with Lax-using teams?
  2. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Tyranitar is effectively Pursuit-supporting nothing, since generally the main benefactor of said support is mono-attack Snorlax. You don't have anything that particularly benefits from the absence of Ghosts beyond "oh yay they can't block rapid spin anymore." Going CurseTank and simply expecting Skarm + T-Tar to do the job of holding off Snorlax is perhaps a wise plan. Snorlax doesn't exactly tend to pack both Fire Blast and Earthquake (and if it does, it doesn't have Curse and possibly not even Rest).

    Machamp still pretty much reams this team too, with neither Reflect on Raikou nor Curse on Skarmory. At any rate, if you want to make a team without Snorlax you could just make a hyperoffensive team where you utilize Blissey's unique talents (Heal Bell and Light Screen particularly) as the special wall of choice. *shrug* I think that could be a thing.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  3. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    My gut is telling me that you need an anti-Raikou measure more active than "lolditto". Skarmory dies to Raikou, Cloyster dies to Raikou, Zapdos dies (eventually) to Raikou, Ttar dies to Raikou (no Earthquake), and Miltank does okay but can't switch into Raikou, leaving your only possible response to Raikou being... to switch to Raikou yourself and phaze it. Even then, it can keep coming in on you forever, because nothing on your entire team has a setup move or a way to 3HKO it unboosted (or, for that matter, a sleep move or Explosion). I mean, sure, your team is clearly using Spikes/Toxic, but that alone won't be enough to keep Raikou down without any real way to threaten or hurt it.

    I'd suggest dropping Miltank for Blissey as your Beller and pseudo-passing Light Screen to a Ground (or, heck, Ttar, if you gave it Earthquake), or running Quagsire or something. Or using Snorlax, obviously, but that kinda defeats the point of the exercise.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  4. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    You're right about me not having anything to really hurt Raikou, and that's a problem I had forgotten about myself (probably because I'm so used to just having Snorlax around to handle that). EQ on Ttar would be a quick-and-dirty fix to that. It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be something, and it's not like I miss out on too much by nixing DPunch on Ttar (Rock Slide can screw with Snorlax anyway, whereas I can threaten Miltank/Charmbreon with Thunders).

    As for Ttar's Pursuit being useless, while I recognize there's no obvious beneficiary, being able to trap and kill Ghosts sometimes is good enough on its own. After all, Misdreavus and Gengar are probably bigger offensive threats than they are defensive cockblocks. Plus, I find that if you build a team that NEEDS Ttar to Pursuit Ghosts, it's not all that reliable, so as of late I've preferred to think of using Pursuit as a benefit in and of itself rather than some vital support for a mono-attacking Snorlax or something. Plus, going with CurseTar to solidify my defenses would leave me awfully bland on offense (even moreso than I already am). I really feel like I need something with a bunch of attacks to threaten damage on a wide variety of threats, so I'd prefer having a mixed PursuitTar around and having GrowlTank be my main Fblast Curselax answer.

    Machamp is a problem for pretty much any team that doesn't run Starmie. And even then, a Toxic'd Starmie can be 2HKOed by Hidden Power. I don't think this team is as vulnerable to Machamp as it might seem at first glance, though, because literally everything on this team outspeeds Machamp. That's huge, as even if I have no solid switch-ins and need to sacrifice something, I'm getting damage on Machamp and limiting just how much damage it can do to me. Plus, there's the chance of it missing its CCs or predicting poorly, so I don't think it's imperative to run CurseSkarm or ReflectKou specifically to make dealing with Machamp more convenient when Toxic and Hidden Power, respectively, allow me to accomplish more against other Pokemon.

    Blissey suggestions could work, but I dunno how well it would work since most of those Light Screen turns are going to be spent shooing Snorlax away than actually capitalizing. I suppose a team like this could work: Blissey having Toxic to force Lax to Rest so Light Screen can be passed to something dangerous while it sleeps, Skarm to shoo him away reliably and effectively, and Gengar to punish Sleep Talk Lax that otherwise isn't too hampered by being forced to Rest, and then two of Marowak/Charizard/Vaporeon/Machamp/(whatever else you can think of) tossed in to capitalize off of Light Screen, and Zapdos to shore you up defensively (especially against Vaporeon), probably with Twave over Sleep Talk because A) you have Blissey to Heal Bell away inflicted Sleeps, and B) you probably would like to paralyze Raikou ASAP in many situations instead of waiting for Thunders to do it for you.

    Zapdos: Thunder/HP Ice/Twave/Rest
    Blissey: SoftBoiled/Heal Bell/Light Screen/Toxic
    Charizard: Fire Blast/EQ/Rock Slide/Belly Drum
    Marowak: EQ/Rock Slide/HP Bug/Swords Dance
    Skarmory: Drill Peck/Whirlwind/Rest/Sand-Attack
    Gengar: Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Explosion/Hypnosis

    Maybe this works? I'm not sure, it seems a bit gimmicky
  5. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush in brazil rain
    is a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    I'd try something along the lines of bliss/ttar/champ/starmie/whatever coverage you need. I guess something to not choke on marowak's dick so skarm, then any offensive filler. Muk/Quag would be pretty cool.
  6. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Well you'd need skarm on that team anyway because without it you have nothing that can switch into EQ snorlax.
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    You don't actually need Skarm for that. You could use Umbreon or Miltank or whatever to troll CurseLax, and Machamp can switch in on a Lax Belly Drum and send it running. Wak's a bigger issue.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    so what if you switch in miltank to lax planning on trolling his curse and he belly drums

    jorgen im starting to see your point...
  9. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yep, that's the problem with Growl stallers and why I typically dislike using them; not only are they prone to dying to crits/freezes/general "bullshit" that happens way too often to actually be bullshit, but Drumlax shits on them and a team with Umbreon/Miltank generally doesn't have much in the way of recovering from that. However, because they can fail against so much, I don't think Growl stallers shitting the bed is sufficient evidence for Snorlax being borked (which is what I assume when you say you're seeing my point). Regardless, it is symptomatic of a greater ill where any Snorlax counter needs to be paired with 2-3 backup plans because Snorlax has so many sets that all wreck... and you STILL can either A) get totally blindsided by something anyway, or B) totally see it coming but be unable to stop it (let alone kill it) without some tricky maneuvering, typically involving some combination of Spikes/Toxic and Roar/Explosion.

    RF, I'd probably use an Electric before tossing Skarm on that team (and if I did have Skarm, I'd do away with Starmie). Zapdos matches up well enough against Marowak anyway (although things can get awfully dicey without Spikes support). Also, the more standard Egg would probably be better than the "cooler" offensive mons because he just adds much more instant offense and defensive synergy than some specialized offensive setup mon. Plus he definitely likes Light Screen support to survive encounters with Pursuiters and make HP Ice from Zapdos/Raikou hurt less. blissey/ttar/machamp/starmie/zapdos/exeggutor is what I'm thinking.
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    You can run a physical wall Umbreon that isn't dependent on Charm (with Reflect), though it's still not quite tough enough to counter DrumLax.

    There's always Wallgonite, I guess?
  11. Borat

    Borat

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    Seems kind of silly to build a team around having a fighting weakness?

    And even if that's the idea, having a snorlax take out a machamp seems like a pretty solid strategy.

    +Snorlax
    -something

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