RNG Abuse (Cheating?)

[Praedoran]

Okay, so I've read the last thread on this subject and it got me thinking...

To all those who believe that RNG Abuse is not cheating, what if I figured out RNG for battling? IE: Exploiting it to make my attacks crit, ice beams that will freeze my targets, etc. Or if it weren't possible, using it to know whether an attack will crit, whether my stone edge will miss, etc.

This would certainly be considered cheating would it not? At what point does the exploitation of the RNG become truly a cheat? Granted, I dislike the RNG as much as anyone and would rather just catch my perfect event/legendary and get it over with, but I enjoy a good discourse on ethical subjects.

Anyone care to discuss?

 

[Zacchaeus]

You have a valid point, but nobody would allow you to interrupt a battle to run your RNG calculations. If you weren't previously aware, RNG takes a while, and it's not flawless. So it probably wouldn't work as well in practice as it does in theory, or else it would be established already, would it not?

 

[NC]

When you are playing in a competitive game (battling), that would be considered cheating. Breeding to get perfect IVed pokemon is not a competitive game (at least one supported here or anywhere else I've seen) and is only done by utilizing something that is in the game whether or not you choose to "act" as though it is.

 

[Praedoran]

Well, someone in the last thread mentioned a device two guys used at a casino in order to predict video poker. If I had such a device that, at the press of a button, would give me an accuracy prediction say, 3 seconds after I pressed it, it would prove invaluable.

 

[Galladiator]

Agreeing with Zacchaeus; it would be awkward to try and do RNGing in the middle of a battle. It just isn't practical.

As far as the ethics goes, I'd say that RNGing as a whole is technically legal, but there's a fine line between manipulating the in-game mechanics to an acceptable degree and flat-out cheating. The line comes when you use an external device (e.g. Pokesav or Action Replay) to alter the Pokemon themselves, rather than simply changing certain things to make training legitimate Pokemon easier, such as infinite Rare Candies or EV/IV checkers. The main difference between RNGing and cheating is that RNGing uses only the game itself to produce the desired result, and no other external devices. That's why there are so many trade threads featuring Pokemon with flawless or near-flawless IVs: the owners use RNG to get the desired Pokemon. So to get back on topic, RNG as a whole is not cheating; but some applications are better-used than others.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Video poker is not a competitive game, i.e. you're not playing against another person in real time. You are simply playing a machine. You can take all the time you need. However, in Pokemon you fight the clock in Battle Timeout, and an opponent. Pokemon=/=video poker.

 

[Praedoran]

Good Points NC. However, from reading Warstories I've learned that many top competitors use a damage prediction program. While this isn't as haxxy as say, knowing whether or not an attack will hit or miss, it does start to push the limits of using an outside program in a competitive environment does it not?

 

[NC]

Well, someone in the last thread mentioned a device two guys used at a casino in order to predict video poker. If I had such a device that, at the press of a button, would give me an accuracy prediction say, 3 seconds after I pressed it, it would prove invaluable.

This would be perfectly fine unless the owner (or authorities) at the casino specifically banned it. No "owners" of pokemon have done such a thing with RNGReporter (not that it would matter if they did apart from in official tournaments, but that is a whole different discussion).


edit: The exact same thing applies to your above post about damage calculators.

 

[Praedoran]

Ah, so you're saying NC, that if it weren't banned. Then it would just be part of the environment in which everyone would use. I will admit, it would add an entirely new twist on the game if we had a prediction result on moves.

For instance: Imagine your moveset looking like:
Stone Edge (Miss)
Earthquake (Hit)
Protect (-)
Grass Knot (Crit)

 

[Pallas Athena]

@Praedoran: The calculator gives the possible outcomes. It does not say what will happen. Also, I already know when things are going to miss. If I am depending on a move with less than 80% accuracy, it is certain to miss.

 

[Venser]

Good Points NC. However, from reading Warstories I've learned that many top competitors use a damage prediction program. While this isn't as haxxy as say, knowing whether or not an attack will hit or miss, it does start to push the limits of using an outside program in a competitive environment does it not?

Of course not, in my opinion. When you reach a certain level of play, you can learn invaluable things (eg item, evs, nature) from the amount of damage something does without using a damage calculator, as well as memorizing how much common attacks do to common targets. Using damage calculators makes this possible for everyone. In addition, anybody with half a brain/has passed middle school should be able to run damage calculations on paper. Damage calculators just speed this up.

Also, it doesn't tell you what will happen, only that an attack can do from ~ to ~ damage. Similar to accuracy, you know stone edge has an 8/10 chance of hitting.

This isn't hidden information. We know the damage formula, we know attack base powers, etc. I like to liken this to knowing which types are super-effective against which types.

 

[Praedoran]

@Venser:

So to make an analogy. If I were to give a math test to my students. Without any restrictions on using a calculator. Those without the calculator would have to make do on their studying and brains, while those with the calculator could use it for the harder questions.

In other words, it's not cheating, but at the same time, it's not fair is it?

 

[Galladiator]

@Venser:

So to make an analogy. If I were to give a math test to my students. Without any restrictions on using a calculator. Those without the calculator would have to make do on their studying and brains, while those with the calculator could use it for the harder questions.

In other words, it's not cheating, but at the same time, it's not fair is it?

Sorry to Venser about jacking this question, but it actually would be fair. You see, those without the calculator would have had time to get one, so it's their own fault for not having one.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

But then those without the calculator can't complain as they were not denyed the oppurtunity to use an advantage but 'chose' not to do so. Those with a calculator are simply using every option available to them.

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Praedoran]

In a competitive environment, I do think it's fair. RNG Manipulation is another level of depth you only find out about once you've delved deep enough into competitive battling. However, would you really consider it fair to battle your friends with these pokes if they're more of the casual variety? Or is it just another level of skill that you've surpassed them in?

 

[Athenodoros]

In a competitive environment, I do think it's fair. RNG Manipulation is another level of depth you only find out about once you've delved deep enough into competitive battling. However, would you really consider it fair to battle your friends with these pokes if they're more of the casual variety? Or is it just another level of skill that you've surpassed them in?

On this note, I have noticed that if I play against casual player friends, I always drop to their level (no IVs/EVs/nature etc.), so I would imagine that a similar honour code would occur for this. Also, I would have thought that it would give a huge advantage if pulled off to the host game, who could then do the RNGing, and so it could never become wide-spread.

 

[Shining Kestral]

At the core of it, RNG is just soft resetting taken a higher degree. Is it also cheating if you save in front of a legendary until you get one with a good nature? How about soft resetting your starter until you get a female one?

 

[Praedoran]

That's good to hear Athenodoros. I've casual friends that I play with who aren't as in depth as I am. So I'd rather not bring in perfect natured/IV'd legendaries. However, a soft reset captured legendary, or hand bred normal poke, is still within acceptable limits for me. As I do make a distinction between soft resets (perhaps a 1/30 pick) as opposed to an RNG Manipulated (1 in a billion pick)

 

[Gabe]

Anyone can RNG. Just many are not willing to put in the amount of work and effort into it. You have no advantage that your opponent does not have, both of you are free to download the RNG reporter and read the guides or watch Bearsfans092's videos.

 

[AzZona]

Anyone can RNG. Just many are not willing to put in the amount of work and effort into it. You have no advantage that your opponent does not have, both of you are free to download the RNG reporter and read the guides or watch Bearsfans092's videos.

so by your reasoning anyone can pokesav anyone can buy a AR so thats not cheating... oh yeah i can watch a video on AR replay codes and pokesav

 

[Praedoran]

Well, the argument of "Anyone can do it" falls in the face of ethical recourse. Since anyone can buy an AR which is certainly cheating.

I'm just wondering at what point does RNG (Random Number Generation) manipulation, become cheating? One poster in the last thread made an excellent analogy as to Lock Pick (RNG Reporter) versus Drill (AR/Pokesav). Both are used to accomplish the same goal, yet one is considered cheating.

If Pokemon Online became as popular as WoW, then there would inadvertently be "Cheats" released for it as well. One possible program might be a little box that tells you when your Ice Beam is going to hit and freeze an opponent. Would this be considered cheating? Or would it become adopted as, something everyone should be using?

 

[Galladiator]

Both, sadly. It would likely be seen as either cheating or (more likely) revolutionary, and many will flock to it to gain an advantage.

It's sad, really, seeing how people will go to any lengths to win a video game.

 

[Praedoran]

@Galladiator: Well, this discourse can be applied to more than just video games. As it's at it's heart, a look at how we view competition. When taken into the real world, this could be a debate on Steroid use in competitive sports for example.

 

[Gabe]

You don't need to buy anything to RNG abuse. >.> AR is helpful, but not needed at all.

 

[AzZona]

You don't need to buy anything to RNG abuse. >.> AR is helpful, but not needed at all.

ok then RNG with nothing more than your DS and the game....