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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by sandshrewz, Mar 18, 2013.
Hmmmm we need some input here before we round this up~~~ May we have some input please? :)
Going by Sir's most recent version of the team, the Suicune weakness seems to have been traded for a slightly smaller Suicune weakness and a much greater DD Salamence and Aerodactyl weakness. With Porygon2 gone, too much of the defensive burden has been placed on Metagross, which was supposed to explode on bulky waters. The team is still really spikes weak, as Dugtrio and Regice are both invitations to set up spikes, and HP Fire Metagross isn't stopping specially defensive Skarmory. The lack of your own spikes and sandstorm makes dealing with Curselax rather difficult as well.
If I was asked to point to the team's weakest link I would have to say Moltres because it requires so much support yet does nothing for the team defensively. But as Moltres obviously isn't going, I suppose the team at its current iteration is playable if not completely solid.
I've always held that good advance teams need to be built from the ground up... so quick fixes to a finished team are bound to create more problems.
Sir's most recent version has EV'd Gengar specifically to survive CB Mence HP Flying for those very reasons you cite. It ain't a perfect fix, but it's something. Pgon2 ain't exactly the greatest solution to those threats either, by the by.
Honestly, I like what Sir's done, but I haven't been playing and testing the team and am somewhat noober when it comes to RSE, so my ability to provide input is limited. Plus, if I were to suggest changes, it'd be a lot like Awoken said, quick fixes will just create more problems, and quick fixes are all we can really manage without fundamentally changing the nature of the team. As it stands, it looks playable.
We have Regice, Boom Metagross, defensive gengar, and fast hp ice moltres. i dont think mence is a problem. ttar is more problematic but it can't set up vs anything but regice
Shall we round this up here with Sir / Danilo's team ? :O!
oh my god doesnt aerodactyl destroy it
As mentioned before, CurseLax really destroys this (especially those with EQ and pursuit support). I don't know why Metagross has Psychic, why not give it Toxic and lead with it? Like this you can toxic the inevitable water. It would leave you somewhat helpless against steel switch-ins but I assume that's why we have HP Fire, right? If we're not going for a Metagross lead, Gengar should probably be leading.
Dugtrio has to be Jolly or CM sub Raikou is going to have a field day.
If Celebi is running Giga Drain, it will never be able to OHKO Dugtrio (99% damage is max). With HP grass and 8-32 EVs in sp.attk, you will always kill Dugtrio with only 4 sp.def EVs and nearly always kill slightly bulkier Dugtrios. Keep in mind that this is important if you are removing Porygon2, as you can no longer baton pass to him - if Dugtrio swaps in on a CM, you're dead or nearly dead with no way of killing revengekilling Dugtrio.
EDIT: I don't like Regice either. This team gets smashed by both Aerodactyl and Curselax, which is why I propose we use Jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 32 Spd / 48 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Wish / Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Thunderbolt / Substitute (no particular order)
1. Walls Snorlax with Shadow Ball; we have hypnosis Gengar who walls Snorlax with EQ
2. Doesn't take much damage from Aero EQ, this EV spread has 308 def.
3. Resists rock (to which Moltres has a 4x weak), flying, normal (Aero's 3 other moves) and ice - wish and reflect allow it to swap in plenty, whereas substitute is more of a rape-your-face alternative
4. Reflect support
5. Resists sand storm; only Meta and Dugtrio do right now.
I'm also unsure why we need Psychic on Meta, but like this we can give Meta Pursuit.
EDIT2: Moltres should have 300 speed, then you can lead with it as it outspeeds and OHKOs sala with hp ice.
I don't know why people think we lose to Snorlax. At least test the team before you blindly make useless suggestions. I've played with this team a lot and CurseLax has never been a problem. Are Taunt WoW Gengar, Boom Regice, WoW Moltres, and Metagross to few answers?
Gengar can't (or doesn't want to) use WoW nor taunt against Snorlax due to the threat of Shadow Ball. Moltres with WoW wouldn't be bad as Moltres lures out Snorlax, a WoW on the turn could really mess him up. If Snorlax gets in on Dugtrio stuck in something like AA/HP Bug or on Celebi you're going to have a bad day, there's no real way around it. Even with +1 curse, explosion on Regice is going to do absolutely nothing. To my knowledge most Snorlaxes have about 200 defense and around 460-500hp; after one Curse that's 300 but Explosion divides it by two which gives us 150, that's 45% - 53% damage to a +1 Snorlax with 200 base defense using your Regice EVs which give it 187 attack. An Adamant Dugtrio will not be able to 2HKO it after Regice used Explosion and Jolly Dugtrio won't even 3HKO it. Every Snorlax will OHKO Dugtrio after one curse, even those with zero EVs in attack.
Leech seed on Celebi would help tons, but dropping hp fire gives you Skarmory problems.
Another big problem I just noticed is that Slaking can kill everything. There's no protect nor substitute, you don't have spikes nor sandstorm so Slaking can come in all he wants, if you predict wrong you immediately die, the risk/reward is just grossly in Slaking's favor when there's no spikes nor sandstorm (slaking returns --> you swap in gengar, he swaps out to blissey, slaking shadow balls/returns --> you swap in Metagross, enemy swaps out to his bulky water, do you really wanna explode now?).
If you can't nail Snorlax with an unexpected WoW from Moltres or Gengar you're going to lose.
If you have bad luck/prediction vs. a Slaking you're going to lose.
Aerodactyl lategame --> lose.
why don't u test the team before making near baseless comments? why are you mentioning slaking?
My comments are not baseless. I don't know why you are so butthurt, I'm not insulting your child's intelligence lol. Anyway, so I did test the team as you requested.
1. Snorlax is less of a problem than I thought, it's fairly easy to get a WoW on him
2. I rarely see Slaking so I asked a friend to use it in his team, keep in mind he had no idea what team I was running and was only asked to use Slaking. He lead with it, I lead with Moltres (he had no idea what team I was running) and shadowballed the first turn. There is really nothing you can switch in aside from Metagross, which I did, which lured out his Milotic. I switch to Celebi because hypno has low accuracy, he uses hypno and hits, I switch out to Regice expecting him to hypno again (natural cure and Regice has chesto), he switches back to Slaking. What do I do now? Gengar? Metagross again? I chose Metagross and he OHKOs it with Earthquake. Eventually my team dies.
3. Haven't found an aero yet and didn't want to ask the same friend because he already knew my team, but what are you going to switch in on aero after Meta dies?
tl;dr: Metagross is overworked as a defensive pokemon but its job is to blow up to allow a fairly underwhelming pokemon (Moltres) to set up and sweep.
Why didn't you WoW Slaking on turn 1? Slaking is surely a problem if u play mediocrely. Anyways, NO ONE USING SLAKING.
Return OHKOs Moltres and WoW has 75% accuracy, Slaking still really hurts Moltres even with WoW on btw, 54-63% damage to be exact using your EV spread (32hp). Besides, you don't know if he has a cleric. You have 25% chance of losing Moltres for absolutely. nothing. Ideally you use WoW, it hits and then Slaking uses an attack that is not return (nor rock slide) - great, if the enemy has a cleric you just lost a ton of value. I'm sure many other people can back me up here that WoW is an extremely poor choice.
Someone suggesting chestorest explode regice calling others mediocre is pretty amusing btw.
Will-o-wisp as the main answer to Snorlax is shaky at best and will bite you in the ass 1/4 of the time. Additionally, any powerful choice bander will tear up this team with good prediction, but such is the nature of an offensive team, especially one based around Moltres which has minimal defensive utility. Being spikes-less of course makes wearing things down very difficult. Metagross overworked, Aerodactyl weak, etc. Things that have been said before.
The advantages such a Regice set has over the original Porygon2 are debatable but IMHO it was a change for the better. No need to be insulting Sir's playing ability.
Saying Will-O-Wisp is bad on Moltres is a bad argument against Slaking since whatever move Moltres uses it's still going to be weak to Slaking. It'll probably be better to focus more on Aerodactyl since it's a more common threat. But Danilo has done his best to address Aerodactyl? I'll open voting later to decide if we shall conclude this with Danilo's improvised team. :)
I've tested the team, but not your version. Anyways, I'm going to explain why I think we are still weak to CurseLax. First off, if I remember correctly Metagross is in this team for exploding on bulky waters such as Suicune or Swampert and Lax usually plays in the late-game, so Metagross is not a reliable answer. WoW Moltres is pretty useless, Snorlax has Rest and Moltres is an excellent set up fodder for him. Gengar doesn't like Shadow Ball, and we have neither Spikes nor SandStorm. Explosion Regice does around 40% after a single Curse to Snorlax and has the same problem that Metagross.
By the way, I haven't seen any Slaking yet. It isn't our main problem.
OR. OR. OR. You can test MY version of the team since I am the only one that has made ANY changes. MY version of the team has NO problems with Snorlax. WoW Moltres means that it is temporarily useless, Regice lures it in and kills it, Taunt WoW Gengar can lure it in and kill it, the combination of Metagross + Gengar walls it. I can safely say that NONE of you guys are speaking from actual in game experience. If you think a team with two WoW Pokemon, a Metagross, and Boom Regice has Snorlax problems, then you have problems.
On to HUARGH's Jirachi suggestion since he's the only one that has bothered to make any suggestions besides me. We can't use the Jirachi he listed because it is setup bait for Forre + Skarm, the two most common Spike users. Maybe Thunderbolt or Fire Punch can be used over Reflect. THAT is a suggestion worth talking about. We don't have Snorlax problems and it baffles me that you guys think we do.
Jirachi is a good suggestion over Regice because it deals with the Aerodactyl problem. My main problem with the suggestion is that it makes us weaker to Blissey. I also would suggest Thunderbolt over Fire Punch on Jirachi to beat Gyarados.
I didn't mean that WoW was a bad move on Moltres, quite the contrary actually: I think WoW is a great move on Moltres and especially this Moltres. When you lead with Moltres and encounter lead Slaking, using WoW is a poor choice whereas swapping out isn't - that was what I was talking about.
Except for Gengar and Metagross (who are both supposed to blow up? Or are we using a non-explode Gengar?) we do not have a normal resistance. It doesn't have to be Slaking, what about Tauros?
We don't have to run with my set, I just think Jirachi is way more beneficial to the team than Regice. It simply has better typing (resists rock, normal, flying, grass, x4 psychic, dragon, poison (immune) and steel whereas Regice only resists Ice). Additionally, Jirachi is only weak to ground and fire, whereas Regice is weak to fire, fighting, rock and steel.
I don't know why we are afraid of Forretress vs. Jirachi - yes he can spike up, but Jirachi can CM up. Skarmory is more of a problem because it can phaze, so sure, lets run with thunderbolt. What about CM/t-bolt/sub/psychic? You lose reflect and wish support and can't swap into CBers as much, but as a stand alone pokemon Jirachi becomes much, much better.
I'm not sure how relevant this is to the Snorlax debate but a curse/resttalk/body slam Snorlax will still beat this team once Gengar is gone and Metagross has been blown up. Sub Jirachi would also tackle that problem (so would Leech Seed on Celebi, but without HP fire Skarmory/Forretress are going to have some fun). I haven't seen one of those in a long time though.
Hmm k I'll push back votings to tomorrow since there's still some discussion going on. Anyways @HUARGH I think the general consensus is that it doesn't matter too much to be weak to a rare threat ie Slaking etc. Also I'm thinking of an odd utility counter Jirachi for this team though I don't play ADV. How does Fire Punch / Thunderbolt / Ice Punch / Wish Jirachi sound ? >_> Probably means it does poorer against Water-types etc :d
It's not that great, if you want to run something like that why not do it on Gengar (who also learns Giga Drain for Swampert)? What do you mean with 'counter Jirachi', are you referring to the move 'counter' (which it does not learn) or the three attacks?
Additionally, what do you want to accomplish by running both fire and ice punch? Is Steelix really that much of a problem? Forretress has no phazing and can't stop bold reflect Jirachi from setting up anyway. Besides, it just gets walled by Blissey. If you really intend to use a non-CM variant, it should have Reflect and/or Light Screen instead of either fire punch or ice punch, 3 attacks is pretty useless.
I don't have the energy to make long posts anymore. test cm wish thunderbolt psychic jirachi over regice if you want. using substitute is terrible. if you go this route, use explosion on gengar. i think these changes are actually very solid. who else think it
Uh I meant utility counter as in one made specifically to check a few threats. Fire Punch is pretty much for only Forretress so that it keeps some momentum up by not letting it Spikes up. I don't mean the move Counter lol!! Ice Punch is probably just for Salamence or something, couldn't think of another filler other than Calm Mind / Reflect etc. I don't get why you mentioned Steelix though ?_?
RoA Speed CCAT - Step 6: Final Adjustments Voting
Okay let's see if there's a general consensus to wrap this up with Danilo's improvised team. It can be found here. Either vote to end it with his team or suggest a change to either the CCAT team or Danilo's team. Thanks! :)
Finish with Danilo's improvised team
Suggest change(s) - submit your suggested changes as well
If anyone has submitted a change, you may directly vote for that change as well. This will last 24-48 hours :)
Because Steelix takes neutral damage from ice, resists psychic and is immune to t-bolt, additionally it has STAB earthquake and phazing so the only reason to run fire punch would also be for Steelix (and water pulse would be specifically for Steelix disregarding things like Forretress, you also benefit from Serene Grace that way).
I propose we keep Danilo's team but replace the Regice with Jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 32 Spd / 48 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Wish / Reflect (need some help here, I honestly think both are great)
The EVs seem fine to me; 244 speed allows it to outrun all Tyranitars and Umbreon as well as adamant Breloom. Its offense is lacking, but in return it doesn't take much damage either.