1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

RSE Baton Pass

Discussion in 'The Policy Review' started by imperfectluck, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. imperfectluck

    imperfectluck
    is a Past WCoP Winnerwon the 4th Official Smogon Tournament

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,230
    Seeing as how RSE is making a comeback with the newest rendition of the Smogon Tour, I figured I'd take a crack at the elephant in the room. RSE full Baton Pass teams are a team archetype that I consider to be nearly uncounterable and requires overly obscure counters. I would propose a clause to be added as follows: "Only 2 Pokemon on your team may know the move Baton Pass." I'd like some input on ADV players on this.
  2. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    7,336
    BP teams arent uncounterable, people just dont like it when their counters fail and they have to spend several turns attacking subs in the hope they get well timed consecutive ches as their opponent slowly sets up.

    Sure it's boring, it isnt uncounterable.

    Have a nice day.
  3. gene

    gene GENE
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,723
    in the past there was a stigma to bp teams: if you use them, you're essentially admitting that you need to get lucky to win (by facing a team that can't handle bp). they take almost no skill to use and are undeniably "lame" in every way. somehow, it feels kind of wrong to ban full bp teams... but at the same time they'd turn the game into utter shit if they were popular.

    i don't really mind if this proposal goes through, but it wasn't a huge problem in the past.
  4. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    If you need the "luck" of facing a team unprepared for BP to win with BP, they'll never become popular ever. If they did, BP counters would just pop up and shut them completely down.

    Can't you use Perish Song in ADV? It only gained popularity in Gen 4 but it utterly destroys any BP team.
  5. gene

    gene GENE
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,723
    they certainly can become popular with new players looking for "easy wins" in the upcoming tours.
  6. Pirotechnix

    Pirotechnix

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    99
    Most 3+/full BP chains consist of relatively weak Pokemon defensively, and are hardly 'uncounterable' once you can recognize that's what they are. They're lame to play, sure, but very predictable and require pretty exacting conditions to succeed - no reason at all to ban them, we all face 'annoying' teams all the time. A good ADV team needs checks to prevent small BP chains anyway.
  7. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,032
    this definitely hasn't been a problem in spl since everyone playing adv there would really never stoop that low as we're all mostly playing adv because we love to play it

    i could see it becoming popular in tour among new players as it's easy to use and can often give guaranteed no-thought wins. i'd be fine nipping it in the bud before i have to face it. it's really anti-competitive i guess.
  8. coyotte508

    coyotte508
    is a Programmer Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    I think perish song was more popular in gen 3 than in gen 4, at least from the time I played... Maybe not anymore now that Gen 3 isn't the main metagame and the number of strategies in gen 3 have reduced, but it was definitely more used.

    Also I agree with Himponlee.

    Edit: Taunt utterly destroys Baton Pass teams too.
  9. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,041
    Mr. Mime blocks Perish Song with Soundproof, though not when the Perish count is already going. It works versus variants that use Celebi instead.

    I don't quite remember how Taunt was handled, but despite the popularity of Gyarados and Tyranitar, I don't remember Taunt being much of a problem for some strange reason.

    Vaporeon with Surf can sort of handle Tyranitar. When given +1 Speed from Ninjask lead, Tyranitar needs to Dragon Dance to outpace. So in order to Dragon Dance then Taunt, it would have to be in the lead spot. For Gyarados you would need something like Thunderbolt Mr. Mime, but that's shaky for obvious reasons.

    Okay, I just looked at our ADV Substitute and it says Substitute blocks Taunt. I could swear it didn't, but if it does, then Taunt just turns it into a guessing game but nowhere near a counter. Every Pokémon in a Baton Pass chain runs Substitute.

    For those who weren't around, a standard Baton Pass chain is something like this. Every Pokémon has Baton Pass and Substitute besides the moves listed.

    Ninjask - 2 of Protect, Sand-Attack, Hidden Power Flying, Hidden Power Bug, Aerial Ace
    Vaporeon - Acid Armor, Surf/Ice Beam/Charm
    Smeargle - Spore, Ingrain, sometimes Spider Web
    Umbreon - Taunt, Mean Look, sometimes Charm
    Mr. Mime - Calm Mind, Trick@Choice Band/Encore, sometimes Psychic/Thunderbolt OR Celebi - Calm Mind, Recover/Psychic

    Sometimes they have Scizor which can pass Swords Dance, Iron Defense and/or Agility.

    And then a recipient, the best ones being Zapdos and Medicham.
  10. coyotte508

    coyotte508
    is a Programmer Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Taunt doesn't block subsitute in 3rd gen, it was a NB bug (link)
  11. Jackal

    Jackal I'm not retarded I'm Canadian it's different
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2004
    Messages:
    6,152
    This is very similar to wrap in RBY, its something that a new player can pick up really easily and have a good shot at winning.

    With that said, I think most good adv teams are prepared for this, as it is something we have always had to consider as adv players. They are not unbeatable by any means, and people will have to figure out how to beat them.

    If we never had to ban them before in the tour, I am not sure why we would have to now.

    At the very least we should give it a test week or two, and then reassess at that point if it is a huge concern.
  12. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    7,336
    I think Aeolus did ban bp in the tour for a while, it was banned in something.

    However I still think that should never have happened.

    Have a nice day.
  13. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,202
    i used baton pass in adv it was nowhere near broken. any good team can handle it.
  14. gene

    gene GENE
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,723
    well i guess that settles it
  15. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arena Tycoonis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,556
    I would support that "BP clause". I agree with G80 and Jabba, we are playing ADV because we love it, and we played when the ADV era, and thats why its not needed in SPL, but most new players, in the tour will try to get the "easy win" of BP, so the game would he horrible.

    I have tested BP teams vs some good players recently (like fear, astamatitos, majin), and i have needed abosolutely no skill to win 90% of those battles. If you know what you are doing, a full BP team can destroy most teams without any skill at all.
  16. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,501
    I personally don't see the need for banning/clausing BP, but if it were to be implemented, I'd be for a cap of 3 BPers per team rather than 2. Being limited in the number of BPers you can have can still allow for the creation of a half-decent team/strategy, but from my experience, having only two causes some inefficiencies in most of those teams, depending on what you're doing. Stuff like BP Celebi can work standalone, but stuff like Perish Trapping with Umbreon becomes weaker with fewer links in the chain.

    This is all based from my own observations, so take this post as you will.
  17. Pirotechnix

    Pirotechnix

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    99
    I've seen a lot of really poorly played full BP chains by scrub players, and most times if I wasn't able to break the chain with my teams, I only had myself to blame. There is *some* (not much) thought that needs to go into how you string the chain, else once it breaks your team is done anyway.

    I'm with Jackal on this one - we don't even know right now how big of a concern it'll be yet, and I can only think of one person offhand who was ever repeatedly successful with full BP in the past. Giving it a week or two to assess before we start rushing water to nonexistent fires is a smart play.
  18. locopoke

    locopoke indulges in unsavory behavior
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,805
    I don't have very much experience with ADV but on the Smogon server I played about 40 games with Baton Pass and only lost twice (game 1 to a Perish Song Celebi and game 2 due to a gamebreaking ch on the turn i BP'd). I can see a lot of new players using BP for free wins in tour so I would be fine with some clause preventing that.
  19. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,412
    wait so you guys want to ban a strategy not because it's broken

    but because your idea of a "worse" player can win with it

    what the hell

    there's no way there's a strategy not good enough for experts that magically gives bad players wins

    you guys sound like the idiots who bitch about people using "standards" - "they're too easy to win with!"
  20. Kristoph

    Kristoph

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,725
    I don't think this is anything new though, Chris-- it's the same sort of argument that we saw used in favor of the OHKO and Evasion Clauses, really. The idea is that if you have a really bad chance of winning "normally," you can throw together an all-or-nothing sort of strategy that, while ultimately ineffective in the long term, can net you some wins that you wouldn't otherwise have had. I disagreed with the argument then and I disagree with it now, but I don't think it's terribly shocking that people are trying to bring it up again.
  21. Oglemi

    Oglemi berlin,,, pls
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,788
    In my opinion, 3rd Gen Baton Pass was about as broken as Salamence in 4th Gen. Counterable (edit: checkable), but if a good player is using it, it's kind of ridiculous.

    Take that as you will.
  22. Pirotechnix

    Pirotechnix

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    99
    In my half-decade or so in ADV play, the number of full BP chains I've faced as compared to regular teams, even among scrub players, was a fraction of a percentage of the 'normal' teams I faced.

    This whole thing is a solution in search of a problem, and we're now creating the problem.
  23. Heist

    Heist
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,338
    hey chris is me, im sure everyone values your opinion, but can you please play the game before you say anything. if you actually came across a baton pass team from time to time, im sure you may actually understand..

    the whole idea of why smogon has clauses and bans it to try to make the better player win. my opinion, although admittedly i am not that well-versed in advance, is that baton pass teams in adv play a lot like inconsistent pokemon in b/w. they even both have the same "counters", such as perish song celebi, which you yourself dubbed as an answer to baton pass teams, and even that is not a full-proof counter, especially since it only has 8 pp and most baton pass teams come equipped with mr mime.

    inconsistent relies on luck, finding opportunity to set-up and sweep, getting the right boosts at the right time [which isnt hard] and hoping the opponent does not pack anything specialised to beat them, such as unaware quagsire or ps celebi. any player can use this.

    baton pass relies on the hope that your opponent has no guaranteed stop to bp teams and with pokemon like taunt+mean look umbreon, and ingrain smeargle, the most reliable answers to baton pass in generation 4 [such as taunt skarmory] can potentially lose. baton pass also has a lot more things going for it in gen 3. for example, ninjask will almost always pass speed unless it comes up against a phazer or hazer. there are no priority moves and no stealth rock to hinder it. basically, 99% of the time, if you look at your opponent's team before the battle, you will be able to tell whether you will be able to pull-off a baton pass sweep. if the team is unprepared for baton pass [which easily over 1/2 adv teams are], that team will lose. there is no doubt, unless they get incredibly lucky. pokemon should not be decided by team match-ups, there should always be an opportunity to be able to play around your opponent, even if you are massively out-teamed. to put it simply, baton pass takes the "skill" out of the game. a game with baton pass is decided entirely on team match-up.

    there was a stage in gen 4 uu, when many top players believed rain dance was overpowered. there was almost a mutual agreement between players that its "cheap" to use rain, and hopefully this is how baton pass teams will be interpreted in the tour.

    either way, i definitely think the tour should begin with baton pass teams allowed, due to the fact that many players will over-prepare for them, and that people will get slagged if they use a baton pass chain, as g80 said "if you use them, you're essentially admitting that you need to get lucky to win". if there does seem a problem with baton pass after the first week, im sure we can review the situation. after all, there are 3 weeks between each advance weekend :)
  24. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,501
    Most teams include Zapdos and/or Tyranitar (by most teams, I mean A LOT) which, by themselves, create a shit ton of issues for most BP chains. So in the relatively lower chance that a player is not running either of these Pokemon, there's still the lower chance of running into a player that will use a full chain. Said chances start decreasing when you start playing tournament battles. Honestly, I bet in all my time playing Pokemon, I can count on my fingers the number of times I've run into a full chain just in regular matches. I've only had to face ONE in an actual tournament. Ever.

    So once again reiterating what was said by Piro and Hiest - No real need to take action until an actual problem arises. The elephant in the room is a welcome party guest until he actually starts destroying the party.

    edit: as an aside @ Heist - I understand the fear people have of losing to someone with a lesser skill base because of a readily available "cheap" tactic that takes little or no "skill" to use. Fact of the matter is that we're going to see that in every competitive game with both strategies and characters. That's why SkarmBliss was so dominant at one point in time. It's why Magneton + Stuff is popular in ADV. It's why Tyranitar or Heracross rip giant holes in teams by themselves. Things become popular, people see that it works and it's powerful, and it's easily implementable in whatever team they're making. Fact of the matter is, if something becomes THAT dominant, it's a matter of learning to get over and around it. Most higher level players are well-aware of how they can do so, and I believe that's what Chris was trying to get at in his post.

    To be honest, the real fears people have over full chains are:
    1) Having to potentially sit there for 10 minutes doing absolutely nothing while their opponent 6-0s them.
    2) Having to hold a BP chain "counter" on a regular team in fear that they'll run into a BP chain, which is frustrating when it happens to them only 2% of the time and you normally have better options (See HP Flying/Whirlwind vs Drill Peck/Roar on Skarmory).
    3) Having to LEARN to get around chains with their regular teams, which is:

    Overall, just a fear of having to compromise one's team building/playing style for those low-chance, unlucky moments when they're staring a Ninjask in the face. I'm pretty sure a lot of players themselves are trying to get those "quick-path-to-victories" themselves when they run into a chain, and when their strategy fails and they get run into the ground for a whole 10 minutes, instead of asking, "how do I get around this regularly?" it's "Ban this! It's cheap! I'm afraid of losing to a scrub player using this lame strategy!"

    I'm betting some of the same people would say this also told people to "Learn more metagames or get better" prior to the auction in SPL. =/

    To be honest, clausing BP doesn't even affect the way a lot of people will build teams, but it'll set a precedence for future rulings if these are the kind of grounds we make rules on. We already clause and ban A LOT in comparison to other competitive games to cut down on the luck factor and make skill more prevalent, but there's only so much by which you can dilute a metagame before you realize that some rules/clauses are unwarranted.
  25. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,041
    Just wanted to add that I agree that a pre-emptive Baton Pass clause/limit/ban is a bad idea. I'd like to fully encourage anyone who thinks they're broken to use them and win with them, just like you were supposed to do with suspects. There is definitely something to say for it, but it's not a clear cut case.

    Yeah cim, it's this kind of post that annoys people. Not even just the questionable content that makes people wonder if you ever played, but also the condescending tone.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)