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RSE In-Game Tiers

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Fireburn, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

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    status: gp check 2/2

    Credit to Mekkah for the original introduction.

    Introduction


    The
    best Pokemon is one who is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and only loses 1 HP when damaged. He also learns every HM, heals himself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best.

    The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run-through of the game. Those will be put in High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in Low
    tier. Pokemon who are neither efficient nor inefficient – for example, Pokemon who have an initial downside but can eventually perform as well as High tiered ones – are put in Middle tier. [the intent of this sentence was confusing but by skimming the list I came up with that description.

    Pokemon are graded based on five factors: availability, raw stats, movepool, typing, and matchups against major in-game battles. Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the Pokemon, and it ranges from very low (gift Pokemon) to very high (common "tall grass" Pokemon). It also takes into account the part of the game at which you are able to get the Pokemon. For example, a Pokemon could be extremely good, but he is worthless if you get him after every major battle. Raw stats affect the Pokemon's ability to KO others and to take hits in-game. Obviously, you want Pokemon with great stats, since that means they can easily KO many other Pokemon without fainting.

    A Pokemon's movepool is the variety of attacks the Pokemon learns. Does he need a lot of TMs to have a good moveset? Can he learn a lot of HMs to help you navigate in the overworld? Does he learn powerful attacks of his own type? TMs are available but can only be used once. Giving items like Super Potions is fine because you can buy them and you have almost infinite money in the game. Giving a Pokemon a TM like the Dig TM in RBY cannot simply be assumed, as there is lots of competition for that TM. The less competition there is for a TM, the more likely it is that a Pokemon can get said TM. Pokemon with great movepools do not present much competition for TMs, allowing them to be used on other Pokemon. (However, a buyable TM can always be assumed.)

    Typing and matchups go hand in hand. The optimal typing gives
    a Pokemon STAB on useful attack types while leaving it with few or no weaknesses. If a Pokemon is a dual type, his typing should complement it offensively and defensively. Typing also determines the major battles in which a Pokemon will be useful (major battles can range from Gym Leaders battles to Rival battles). Therefore, it is useful to use Pokemon with good type combinations that give them an advantage in most of the game's major battles.

    Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded
    while manipulating luck through resets; these aim for the absolute fastest on-screen time, but the real time spent on them is much, much more. If you want to play through the game in a relatively low time frame, then you're looking for an efficient run.

    A team is actually the most efficient (in terms of utility per team member) if it only consists of a single member; however, this tier list will assume a team size of around three Pokemon. Otherwise, the list would be extremely centralized around starters and early-game Pokemon while everything else would be too crappy to use. Also note when reading through this guide that some of the moves and abilities listed for a Pokemon may only be obtained by their evolutions. Some Pokemon may be placed in higher tiers due to their evolutions capabilities as well.

    TIERS

    -High- Pokemon highly recommended for use.

    Abra
    Availability: Early
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Evolving him is somewhat difficult, but Alakazam's sheer strength and power makes it worth it.

    Chinchou
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Lanturn has passable stats and Water/Electric is an awesome STAB combo.

    Electrike
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Fast and strong; Bite + Thunderbolt offers great neutral coverage.

    Groudon (Ruby Only)
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Comes late at a high level, but is incredibly strong and sweeps easily with Bulk Up + STAB Earthquake. Drought also removes its Water weakness and it has Fire Blast to crush Grass- and Ice-type Pokemon.

    Kyogre (Sapphire Only)
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Comes late at a high level, but is incredibly strong and can sweep the Elite Four pretty much by itself with a moveset of Calm Mind / Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Thunder (it comes with three of those moves).

    Lotad (Sapphire and Emerald only)
    Availability: Very Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Dual STABs have great coverage without need for TMs, while his typing doesn't leave him with many weaknesses. It's easy to get as well.

    Mudkip
    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Learns a lot of HMs, is bulky, and is strong. His dual STAB combo offers great coverage when coupled with Blizzard, which is an easily purchased TM.

    Ralts
    Availability: Very Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Very strong, moderately fast, and has a pretty good movepool. Psychic + Thunderbolt is a good attacking combo to use, especially since Ralts gets Calm Mind as a level-up move.

    Rayquaza (Emerald only)
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Very Wide
    Additional Comments: Hard to catch, but comes at a very high level and is extremely strong. Needs no TMs.

    Shroomish
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Slow, but Breloom is very strong and has a good movepool.

    Skarmory
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Excellent typing lets it take many hits, and it outright walls a lot of the game's more deadly Trainers, such as Norman, Winona, Steven, Sidney, and Phoebe. You should also have the Steel Wing TM as soon as you find it, meaning that it can pull its weight very quickly.

    Staryu
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Very Wide
    Additional Comments: Very fast and strong with a great movepool. It comes a bit late, but training it is well worth it.

    Taillow
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Reliable STABs, great early movepool, and extremely fast.

    Tentacool:
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Good stats, but has a shallow level-up movepool. He's a great HM slave though. Tentacool and Tropius learn all of the game's HMs between each other.

    Torchic
    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Very strong with decent Speed; dual STAB upon evolution offers great coverage without need for a lot of TMs.

    Treecko
    Availability: Beginning
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Very fast; a wide movepool coupled with decent offenses means it can take on most Pokemon. It learns a lot of useful moves through TMs.

    Tropius
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Best HM slave in the game.

    Whismur
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Very Wide
    Additional Comments: Good attacking stats and can utilize lots of easily replaceable TMs such as Fire Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder for wide type coverage and power.

    Wingull
    Availability: Very Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: He has decent power, and Water/Flying is a good STAB combo. He learns Shock Wave which rounds off coverage nicely.

    Zangoose (Ruby only)
    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Decent stats with a wide movepool; Swords Dance at level 10 is amazing.

    Zigzagoon
    Availability: Very Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Comes early, has a neat ability in Pickup, and is a great HM slave.

    -Mid- Pokemon that fall short in some of the characteristics but are still decent.

    Anorith
    Availability: Early Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Pretty strong and can take a few hits, but is slow.

    Barboach
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Not too hard to get; decent replacement for Swampert. However, it is slow and not overwhelmingly powerful.

    Carvanha
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Very strong, but it is really frail and comes somewhat late.

    Doduo
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Taillow comes first, but Dodrio is pretty good too with reliable STABs.

    Feebas
    Availability: Late-Mid game
    Stats: Above Average (after evolution)
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Milotic is a very powerful Pokemon, but Feebas is tedious to evolve and is notoriously difficult to catch.

    Geodude
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Useful early game, but has too many weaknesses and is slow.

    Heracross
    Availability: Late
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Comes late but is strong and has a good movepool.

    Machop
    Availability: Early Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Needs TMs for move variety, but he is very strong.

    Magikarp
    Availability: Early
    Stats: High
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: A pain to train early on and it doesn't get a good STAB to use with its high Attack, but Gyarados gets Dragon Dance and has great stats.

    Magnemite
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Slow with a shallow movepool, but has good typing. Magneton is pretty strong and its typing is very useful against the Elite Four.

    Makuhita
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Needs TMs for move variety, but he is very strong. It also comes a earlier than Machop.

    Marill
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Bulky and very, very strong with Huge Power. It also leans strong moves such as Double-Edge and Rollout and it's quite useful as an HM Slave. However, Marill is veryslow and doesn't receive any good Physical STAB.

    Meditite (Ruby and Sapphire only)
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Medicham is very strong, and his only drawback is that he comes late.

    Numel
    Availability: Early Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Good dual STAB combo, but is hindered by a lot of common weaknesses and relatively low bulk. However, it still the best available Fire-types outside of Torchic.

    Oddish
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: No good STAB until Petal Dance and Breloom is much better, but there aren't a lot of good Grass-types to choose from in this game.

    Psyduck
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Decent stats; decent Water-type if you didn’t choose Mudkip.

    Regice
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Difficult to get but it is very bulky and gets a nice BoltBeam combo. It can take on Drake pretty much by itself and is great against Wallace.

    Slakoth
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Very Wide
    Additional Comments: Truant is horrible, but Slaking has excellent stats and he can always employ a hit and run strategy.

    Spheal
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: He comes late, but Water/Ice is a good STAB combo and Walrein is very bulky with decent offensive capabilities.

    Spoink
    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: He's slow and outclassed offensively by Gardevoir, but he's not a bad Pokemon by any means.

    Vulpix
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Comes late, but Flamethrower at only level 29 is awesome and Ninetales is pretty strong. Aside from Flamethrower, its movepool is really bad.

    -Low- Either is complete crap or is too hard to get.

    Absol
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its frail, comes late, and lacks a good STAB move.

    Aron
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: It's very slow and has way too many crippling weaknesses.

    Bagon
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: It just comes far too late to be helpful in any capacity.

    Cacnea
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Slow, has a lot of weaknesses, and is too frail to take repeated hits.

    Castform
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Its stats just don't cut it.

    Corphish
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has a horrible level movepool - no good STAB options to make use of its higher Attack...honestly, Sharpedo is superior in every way.

    Duskull
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has good defenses and a good typing, but it's slow, has poor offenses, and a horrible level-up movepool.

    Grimer
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Poison is a very bad attacking type offensively. It is also slow and requires TMs to have a varied moveset.
    Gulpin
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Poison is a very bad attacking type offensively. It is also slow and requires TMs to have a varied moveset.

    Koffing
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Poison is a very bad attacking type offensively. It is also slow and requires TMs to have a varied moveset.

    Lileep
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has an interesting type combination, but its offenses and level-up movepool just don't cut it.

    Lunatone (Sapphire Only)
    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Its stats are not terribly great and its typing isn't particularly useful.

    Natu
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Its good moves come too late and it's basically completely inferior to all of the other Psychic-types in the game.

    Pikachu
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its movepool is mediocre and it is outclassed by Manectric offensively. (Unless you get a Light Ball one, but even so, Pikachu will be KOed by a light breeze.)

    Pinsir
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It learns no good STAB moves and is totally outclassed by Heracross.

    Poochyena
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Useful early game but is too weak later on when enemies start using more powerful Pokemon.

    Regirock
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It is very difficult to get and isn't useful in any of the later battles.

    Registeel
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It is very difficult to get and is too weak to cause much damage.

    Relicanth
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It comes late and has a terrible type combination that saddles it with a ton of weaknesses. It's also too slow to make use of its decent Attack stat.

    Rhyhorn
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It comes too late to be of much help against any of the final battles, and its slow and burdened with many weaknesses.

    Sableye (Sapphire and Emerald only)
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Although it is very useful against Brawly and Phoebe, it has bad stats and a bad level-up movepool, which means it will be useless most of the time.

    Seedot (Ruby and Emerald only)
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It relies too much on TMs to have an acceptable movepool, and its stats don't cut it until you get the needed evolution stone, which comes way too late.

    Shuppet
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It is slow and has a terrible movepool.

    Slugma
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Suffers from horrible typing and bad Speed; Numel is better in every way.

    Snorunt
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It's very rare and comes very late. Stats are too mediocre to get any real mileage out of it.

    Solrock (Ruby and Emerald Only)
    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Its stats are not terribly great and its typing isn't particularly useful.

    Swablu
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has good typing, but its very poor stats rather let it down.

    Torkoal
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Pained by poor Speed and a shallow movepool; totally outclassed by Numel.

    Trapinch
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Above Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Although Flygon is pretty good, its suffers from a horrible level-up movepool and generally subpar stats until it evolves for the final time.

    Wailmer
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It is slow, not overly strong, and by time you can get it you have already seen too many other good options for a strong Water-type.

    Wurmple
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Very Shallow
    Additional Comments: Both of its evolutions are terrible and is only really useful for beating up Brawly.

    Zubat
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It's a pain to train early on thanks to its weak offensive options and is generally outclassed by Swellow.

    -EPIC FAIL-
    Absolute insults to humanity.

    Chimecho
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It's very hard to find, and its horrible stats mean the payoff isn't worth it.

    Clamperl
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It requires trade evolutions to even become useful.

    Goldeen
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: It has an alright movepool, but it suffers from bad stats.

    Illumise
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Both its stats and movepool are uninteresting.

    Jigglypuff
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It comes too late and its movepool is terrible without TMs.

    Luvdisc
    Availability: Don't
    Stats: Use
    Movepool: This
    Additional Comments: Words cannot begin to describe how horrible this Pokemon is.

    Mawile
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its stats are absolutely horrible.

    Minun
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has terrible stats and a terrible movepool.

    Nincada
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Weak and frail - both possible evolutions fold to strong attacks.

    Nosepass
    Availability: Early-Mid game
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It's slow and has little offensive ability.

    Plusle
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It has terrible stats and a terrible movepool.

    Roselia (Ruby and Sapphire only)
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Decent movepool, but hindered by its low Speed and frailty .

    Sandshrew
    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its level-up movepool is positively horrendous.

    Seviper (Sapphire and Emerald only)
    Availability: Mid-game
    Stats: Average
    Additional Comments: Has high offensive stats, but is slow, weak defensively, and has a poor level-up movepool.

    Skitty
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its stats are nigh unusable.

    Spinda
    Availability: Mid-Game
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Decent
    Additional Comments: Its stats are nigh unusable.

    Surskit
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its movepool and stats are both quite forgettable.

    Volbeat
    Availability: Early
    Stats: Poor
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Both it's stats and movepool are uninteresting save Tail Glow.

    Voltorb
    Availability: Late-Mid game
    Stats: Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: Its very fast, but its also rather weak and easily walled.

    Wobbuffet
    Availability: Late
    Stats: Below Average
    Movepool: Shallow
    Additional Comments: It can only do damage by taking damage first, which is terrible in-game.

    Untiered

    Beldum
    Availability: End
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: End
    Additional Comments: Doesn't come until after you beat the Champion.

    Groudon (Emerald Only)
    Availability: End
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Doesn't come until after you beat the Champion.

    Kyogre (Emerald Only)
    Availability: End
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments:Doesn't come until after you beat the Champion.

    Latias
    Availability: End
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Doesn't come until after you beat the Champion.

    Latios
    Availability: End
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Wide
    Additional Comments: Doesn't come until after you beat the Champion.

    Rayquaza (Ruby and Sapphire only)
    Availability: End
    Stats: Excellent
    Movepool: Very Wide
    Additional Comments: Doesn't come until after you beat the Champion.
  2. kevin111260

    kevin111260

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    70
    I agree that in-game, there are tiers which seperate the crappy pokemon from the good ones. I think all trade-evolution pokemon should be placed in the middle because they are harder of obtain. However, i found that Raichu was better than Manetric, even if you needed a thudnerstone for it to evolve. It has dig and brick break, which was more usefull in the eliet four than manetric was. Also, zigzagoon and tropius cover all the HMs, so i used them as my primery HM slaves. Also, Ralts is harder to level up early game because it only get growl. Lastly, i found Zubat very usefull because Crobat is strong and it has a good movepool (Fly, Bite, SLudgebomb).
  3. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,280
    Both of those are important TMs which can't be replaced, though I'll think about Raichu.

    Ralts gets Confusion at level 6 so early game leveling is pretty easy. :\

    Zubat is weaker than Swellow and Crobat is too hard to evolve.
  4. Friar

    Friar

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    Messages:
    615
    Ok, after making a bit of a pitch for Shedinja on IRC, I am back to make a full argument for Shedinja / Nincada being a Middle Pokemon (not High, just middle). Basically, the whole idea behind using Shedinja is Wonder Guard.

    Availability- Shedinja certainly is ok here. Nincada is available very early on (even before High Pokemon like Numel and Whismur). Nincada evolves in Shedinja pretty early on (level 20), at which point you can start abusing Shedinja. Nincada is also pretty common.

    Stats- Shedinja may have a terrible BST (236), but the attack stat of 90 is perfectly usable. Also, the main point of using Shedinja is to beat the many Pokemon that cant touch Shedinja, so the terrible defenses arent a major concern when Wonder Guard is taken into account. 40 base speed is definitely bad, I will admit that (although, it does tie with Camerupt, a High pokemon).

    Moves- Ok, lots of stuff to say here. First, is the most useful move on Shedinja: Shadow Ball. STAB, good base power, and is both a TM and level up move. Shedinja gets the HM's Cut and Flash, so it isnt useless as an HM user. I will list other moves separately as they are a little complicated:

    Fury Cutter - the best Bug STAB Shedinja can get outside of the egg move Silver Wind or a lucky Hidden Power (both not viable). This can be obtained through the Emerald move tutor pretty early on (Verdanturf), or through evolving Shedinja at level 20. I'm not positive if Shedinja can only get one move from Ninjask, but if so choosing Fury Cutter would make you lose out on the level up Double Team (but it is a TM). It also means you dont get Swords Dance. Fury Cutter is actually ok on Shedinja because if you are against something that cant touch you you can start setting up your Shedinja with Fury Cutter and beat them down with powerful attack after successive hits. It of course hits Normal types which is important for Shedinja, but also hits Dark-types which resist Shedinja's Ghost STAB.

    Double Team - This is pretty great on Shedinja and can be obtained in a few ways: either by TM or by evolving at level 20. This is really the only way Shedinja will be killing stuff that can hit it for super effective damage, because once you send it in on a Pokemon that can't hurt you, you can set up as many Double Teams as you want and then have a great chance to sweep whatever you see because you will usually dodge lethal super effective attacks. (imo this is a "must have" on Shedinja)

    Swords Dance: A lesser option in my opinion because you might meet something that can hit you for super effective damage later in the match, but set up moves are good. This aids Shedinja by boosting its good attack to huge levels, but probably Double Team outshines it. To get Swords Dance, you must evolve at level 25, which means you miss out on level up Fury Cutter and Double Team, which is a bummer.

    So, yeah, something like Shadow Ball / Double Team / Flash / (Fury Cutter or Cut) sounds good

    Power- Again, 90 base attack is good, but the point of using Shedinja is that whatever he is against cannot possibly hurt him due to Wonder Guard, so Sheddy can a "free" kill and set up Double Team to be ready for whatever is next.

    Type- Ghost is a nice STAB to have, and as long as you run some attack to hit Normal types (Cut, Leech Life, Fury Cutter, whatever), you are pretty set. Shedinja also has a whopping 12 immunities iirc thanks to Wonder Guard, so on the immunities / resistances Shedinja is set.

    Match Ups: Well, just for kicks lets say you dont get to level 20 until Gym 3 (Electric). Nincada fairs decently against Brawly due to its Fighting resistance. Basically, at all gyms and elite four battles that are not centered around a type that super effects Shedinja, Shedinja will find at least one Pokemon that it can set up against and proceed to sweep as much as possible. Shedinja also shines in regular trainer battles.

    So yeah Double Team + Wonder Guard for the win. Shedinja fits the definition of a Middle Pokemon, a Pokemon that falls short in some characteristics but is still decent.

    tl;dr - move Shedinja to Middle
  5. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Messages:
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    All right, things seem good overall, though I do have something to note.

    I'm pitching Wingull for high here. I've used it quite a bit in-game, and it works like a charm. Sure, it's slow, but it can outspeed things in-game a decent amount, and Surf and Fly makes it good for attacking and taking up two HM slots. Shock Wave and Ice Beam might get some competition, though there's always Blizzard and Shock Wave would mostly get used on things that get Spark anyway.

    It comes extremely early on as well, even before getting to Petalburg for the first time, and it can take on many gym leaders. Roxanne goes down to Water Gun, Brawly to Wing Attack, Flannery to Water Gun, Winona to Shock Wave/Ice Beam, and Tate and Liza to Surf.

    In other words, Wingull should be up to high.


    After thinking about it, Poochyena might be Mid. It comes amazingly early, Dark is an awesome STAB (Neutral to most things), and it ruins Tate and Liza and Phoebe by itself. What pushed it up to Mid for me was this along with Intimidate, which might take a little time but is a huge help for anything that attacks physically. It's really nice for Norman's Slaking among other things.


    Heracross comes way too late and is too hard to get for High for me. If you get it, great, but I think it should be Mid.


    Makuhita and Shroomish, on the other hand, are High in my book. Makuhita really only gets fighting STAB by level-up, but when you think about it that's amazing in itself. Wattson's magnets, down. Norman, down. Sidney, Glacia, and half of Steven, down. It has amazing attack and can take some hits nicely too. Breloom loses some of that durability and has a couple extra weaknesses but is faster (and for ingame it's not that bad) and the added Grass-type is amazing. Roxanne doesn't like Bullet Seed or Mega Drain, it resists Wattson's moves, it can beat the rocks in the Psychic gym in a pinch, and wins in Sootopolis. In Emerald, it also takes a lot of Wallace's team, making up for the Steven loss as well.


    tl;dr: Makuhita, Shroomish, and Wingull to High, Heracross and Poochyena to Mid. If I think of anything else I'll add it.
  6. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

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    i'm going to say something for the regis. starting with rock:

    i find hard that 5 weaknesses is a lot and three of those weaknesses have to break through his base 200 defense stat but i agree that he is hard to get like all the regis ( stupid game making me catch a wailord...)

    regice is not as good defensivley as regirock but his most common weakness fire, also has to break his base 200 special defense stat although the fighting weakness is annoying. he can also run a good special attacking spread

    registell is just pure tank, you can't just say that he has horrible attacking stats, although i know that they are low ( 75 for each) that is far from horrible.


    all in all, the regis are not as bad as you say, although if the only thing that would keep them from being mid is getting thewm then i would totally agree.
  7. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    @Friar- I disagree with Shedinja. The fact that it needs FUry Cutter (Which is weak unless it hits a bunch of times) and Shadow Ball (which you can't get until 2/3 of the way through the game) to deal any form of damage is weak, and you are pretty much relying on SD and Double Team to sweep and beat counters, which is painfully long to do.

    Also, every member of the E4 can beat Sheddy easily except Wallace, so its pretty mich going to be useless where you need it most.

    In short, I refuse to bump Sheddy up.

    @Diana- Good points, I didn't even know Wingull got Shockwave o_O. I'll bump up Poochyena, Shroomish, and Makuhita. Heracross is staying for now since it actually isn't too hard to get and it is very good, and I'm undecided on Makuhita yet since its level up movepool IS very shallow, but I'll think about it. :)

    @Berserker Lord, Yeah the only reason they're low is because it takes a very long and convoluted sidequest to get them, which tbh isn't worth it.
  8. Diana

    Diana This isn't even my final form
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    When I saw Wingull learned it I was shocked too, but it's awesome.

    And honestly either way Makuhita goes I'll live with, it's the one I felt least about but Fighting is really good. With Breloom up to high I can see Makuhita staying mid but it's still really nice to use. Up to you.

    Nothing else really can be said here, I agree with pretty much everything else on here. I'm glad someone else likes in-game Whismur though.

    Might play a couple more times since I wanted to anyway with some others and see how they fit though.

    Edit: Makuhita is sucking on my Sapphire run late, I think you might be right on Mid.
  9. Kikuichimonji

    Kikuichimonji

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    Zigzagoon is available from the start and it's easily the best utility Pokemon in the game. Any extra party slots should go to Zigzagoon. Keeping two or three in your party ensures a steady stream of items throughout the game, most of them quite good. The chance to pickup Ultra Balls before you even have the ability to buy Great Balls is very nice, and getting free Rare Candies every now and then is something that most don't mind at all. In Emerald, Zigzagoon does become slightly worse (no more free rare candies) but even so, free items are free items. In Emerald, you can still catch Linoone in the 21+ range around mid-game, which might be worth it to have a .3% chance of picking up Rare Candies. Zigzagoon should be at the very top of the list.

    Mudkip is easily the best of the three starters. Combusken's best STAB is Double Kick until it evolves, when it learns Blaze Kick, a 85 power STAB with 90% accuracy. Same goes for Sky Uppercut at level 59 (later than Swampert learns Earthquake). The best STAB that Blaziken gets comes from a TM (Brick Break). Swampert gets a free STAB thanks to Surf, and outclasses everything available to Blaziken. Sceptile's movepool is a joke, pretty much the only decent attack he learns is Leaf Blade at level 29, which is a 70 power attack (albeit with added crit chance, but an added 6.25% chance to crit hardly redeems it). It has to compete with Lotad and Shroomish for Bullet Seed (and Bullet Seed isn't even a very good attack to be using all the way until level 29). Marshtomp gets Mud Shot at the same time that Combusken gets Double Kick, and it's almost as good, and Marshtomp becomes flat out better than everything as soon as Surf becomes available. Earthquake at level 52 is just the icing on the cake. Mudkip should be placed at the top of the list along with Zigzagoon.

    One thing to consider when factoring in use of the Thunderbolt TM: Thunderbolt requires either a significant detour or a sizable wad of cash, so there is a cost associated with using it. That being said, is still a very good Pokemon based on her early join time and the fact that she gets a STAB Confusion at level 6, which is just plain awesome.

    Numel seems a bit too high. It doesn't evolve until level 33, and it doesn't learn Flamethrower unless you delay evolution until level 41. Earthquake is learned at level 35 if you delay evolution and 37 if you don't. I don't think that Numel's stats are good enough for Magnitude and Ember to carry it that far. Also, a double weakness to water really hurts, especially for Sapphire players.

    Zangoose is a pretty good Pokemon. He starts with Swords Dance and should get Slash shortly after he joins up, and you also have Return by the time he joins. He's pretty good even without TMs and gets even better if you're willing to use Return, Shadow Ball, or Brick Break on him. Compare to Heracross, who comes later with a similar STAB (Brick Break instead of Slash) but no Swords Dance. Heracross does get Megahorn at level 53, but up until that point it is struggling to keep up with Zangoose. Move Zangoose up and Heracross down.

    Vulpix doesn't really deserve mid tier in my opinion. It gets Flamethrower at level 29, but so what? Most water types learn an equivalent STAB at the same level and that doesn't automatically make them usable. Fire is a really bad type from a defensive perspective, being weak to three very common types. If you really want Flamethrower that bad, juts buy it at the Game corner and teach it to something like
  10. Mizuumi

    Mizuumi

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    You forgot to name the Pokemon you were talking about. :V

    Other than that, all very valid points. Sceptile does get Dragon Claw via TM, but that's somewhere around midway through and there's not much else to rely on until then. So you're probably right about Marshtomp.
  11. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    I'm going to have to say that Seviper is at least Mid. It might not learn any moves aside from Poison typed ones and Crunch by level up, but you forget that it can get Flamethrower (which is one of the reasons Whismur is high), and has base 110 attack and special attack. Sure, it's slow (SOMEWHAT. It's not Aggron/Rhydon slow.), but speed can be worked out by the raw attacking power and the fact that the computor's pokemon have no EVs and 3 IVs in all stats.

    Also, Heracross should not be High if Milotic is in Low. You get MILOTIC first, it gets a better APLICABLE movepool (Megahorn will be gotton just in time for Steven in Emerald... at which point it only hits Claydol.), and is caught right before the flood of water types. Wheras Heracross is outdone by the earlier Machop, Makuhita, Breloom, and Blaziken (And if you want a fighting type at that point, well, Medicham's there.)
  12. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    The problem with Milotic is that Feebas appears in 6 tiles out of several hundred, which means you need to have a massive amount of luck to catch one. Additionally, you need to keep on feeding it Poffins in order for it to evolve into Milotic. With all of that hard work, Milotic's slot can easily be replaced by another Pokemon.
  13. Banryu

    Banryu

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    ...WTF. Wingull is too high and Ninjask + Skarmory are too low. >=0 I mean, some of the other guys I understand, but come ON.
  14. Thorns

    Thorns

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    are you gonna put some reasoning forward or just throw out random statements
  15. Xaqwais

    Xaqwais

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    Let me make sure, this list isn't completely in order correct? Treeko isn't necessarily placed above every other pokemon, correct?
  16. Malkyrian

    Malkyrian

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    Just a quick fix: you currently have Poochyena on both Mid and Low.
  17. Thorns

    Thorns

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    correct, this isn't a fire emblem tier list
  18. Helios

    Helios

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    My two cents;

    I find ralts to be more mid tier. Why? Because until level 30, it has useless stats. Ralts is on par with wurmple and kirlia is about as powerful as your starter's first form. Not only that, but ralts needs a comparitively large amount of EXP to level, which you could be giving to another. It doesn't do too well against Brawley (at lvl 18, zubat struggles against him a little with a double resist; ralts gets destroyed unless you've been grinding) and horribly against Watson (mainly due to his magneton, but also gets exploded on). On top of that, ralts is annoyingly rare and, whilst it comes really early, you have no real choice of when to get it. Yes, you can get it that early, but then you're forcing competition for EXP with whatever else you want (and ralts, as mentioned earlier, is really thirsty). Unless you picked treecko (who doesn't really have a good partner early on), ralts could easily ratched your team up to three fighters. Lastly, pure psychic is a mediocre type and for coverage, ralts get t-bolt and that's it really it (and it has plenty of competition for it). Early on, its crap. Later, it suffers from its mediocre speed and defense (and low PP on its main moves).

    In summary, ralt's biggest problem is the awkwardness of fitting it onto your team. Funnily enough, it's main competition isn't with fellow psychics like abra, but with the pokemon who you'll be wanting around the same time as it; shroomish, wingull, lotad, etc.

    Speaking of wingull, it suffers similarly to poochyena; does badly late game (especially considering its fairly useless attack power and mediocre defenses). It's fast initially, but by norman, you'll probably be yearning for a different water or flyer. It does suitably an a pseudo HM slave, though.

    On the other hand, I reckon Gulpin is really under-rated. It's stats are actually fairly good and its movepool, whilst mediocre on the physical side, has plenty of special coverage (Ice beam, shock wave, water pulse, and for support, he gets yawn (which is awesome, especially really early), amnesia (if you really want) and encore. Sludge is fairly good early on as well. Mid at least. Unfortunately, it might be joining a little too late for its punching power to be high. Koffing trades a bit of joining time for a much better late game with fire blast and thunder/thunder-bolt + no EQ weakness. Grimer doesn't get the special attack and doesn't warrant use in game over the other two (IMO).

    As said before, my two cents.
  19. pastel

    pastel

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    I'd say trapinch for mid. He might be a bit hard to train, and one of his best moves just is dragonbreath, but it learns quite some useful TMs. He is not rare, you don't get him too late in the game, and his level is reasonable. Once you get dragon claw, earthquake, or flamethrower, he is unstoppable.
  20. Sceats

    Sceats

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    Yeah zangoose is high, no questions asked. Its found at a usable level (16 iirc) and it already has access swords dance and secret power. If you decide to give it shadowball and dig/brickbreak then this thing can mow down the game with incredible ease.
  21. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    The problem with Hera is that you get it at the SAFARI ZONE. It isn't High, it should be Mid at most!

    And Seviper and Gulpin are both criminally underestimated. Seviper gets at LEAST Poison Tail (Early to) and Crunch without TMs, and if Whismur is only good with Flamethrower, then it needs moved down (Although I support it in high, Seviper should be High or Mid.)

    Swalot has stats of 100/73/83/73/83/55, which while they aren't perfect, aren't horrid either. It evolves fairly early at level 26. It gets Sludge and Yawn early game (Which, may I remind you, is more powerful than Double Kick, which is Combusken's main attack!), and can soon get Body Slam, and later get Toxic and Sludge Bomb (Right around Victory Road) naturally. It can use reusable TMs like Ice Beam, and some others (if uneeded by the rest of the team) like Brick Break, Shadow Ball, and Giga Drain.
  22. pastel

    pastel

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    For swalot, being able to learn good TMs is not enough, it is a pain to train him, believe me, and as swalot, using sludge until you get TMs is not very good, poison is a terrible type, while you play though the game, alot of pokemons resist sludge. He might be cool, but not underestimated.
  23. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    "a pain to train him"? IIRC, he's one of the FASTEST exp gainers in the game! If you mean he doesn't hit hard, well, you've never used him. Which ceeds into my next point.

    Do NOT underestimate STAB Sludge (65 base power, at the time where 60 is the norm) off of a decent physical attack. It will KILL things. You can say "lol steel types", but I say "OK, so you won't be soloing with Gulpin. And it can't take down Magnamites and Arons. Whoopdeedoo" Treeko can't take down steel types early on. Neither can Tailow at any point. Yet they are at high.

    Let's see what resists poison.

    GHOST: You don't encounter ghosts till lategame, where you should have a team already made.

    GROUND: Admitably, there are Numels and Camerupts going around early game, but then, why are you using Swalot on a Numel?

    POISON: The only common Poison that isn't part Grass (like Roselia) is Zubat. Is it common? Yes, but not to the extent of RBY and such.

    ROCK: Yeah, because we all know that you should be using Swalot against Geodude who already can hit you with STAB SE ground moves.

    I admit, a lot of grass types are part poison, so you can't take advantage of SE hits. But you can certainly reap the benifits of neutral ones.
  24. Stellar

    Stellar
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    I'm not sure what affect this would have on tiering, but Zangoose is only available in one out of the three games.
  25. Fireburn

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    -Zangoose is great, but Stellar is right: he is only available in 1/3 of the games. He would be High in Ruby definitely, but mid/low in the other two. I might make a note of that.

    -Trapinch is pretty much gets no good moves without TM's, and it a pain to train early on due to low stats except Attack. It's level up movepool is too sparse and trying to train it to Flygon just isn't worht the time and resources.

    -Ralts is staying in high for now. I really didn't have any trouble getting it on the teams ince it comes so early, and I donm't see how it struggles against a freaking Fighting Gym when its got super effective STAB. Kirlia's stats admittedly aren't the best, but they are good enough to get to Gardevoir.

    -I will rethink Seviper, Numel, and Wingull.

    -Ninjask does not get any good moves without TMs, and he is too frail. Skarmroy had a crap movepool, is too slow, and is too weak.

    -Swalot's growth rate is the fluctuating category, which requires the MOST experience lol. Poison is just a really, really, really poor STAB to have, and it also very slow. It can have a good movepolo with TM support, but otherwise I'd rather use my resources elsewhere. I might consider moving it up to mid, but tbh it is outclassed by Seviper offensively. (Except in Ruby).

    -Milotic is too hard to get and evolve. It stays at low.

    -Heracross does come a bit late, but he is really very good. He doesn't really need too many TM's (Comes with Brick Break for good STAB.), and has nice stats.

    @Kikuichmonji- Each gategory isn't in order lol. It just organized into tiers, but the tiers themselves have no order. I will probably rethink Vulpix though.

    Thanks for the input! ^_^

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