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RU core crisis (Round 4)

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Silvershadow234, Mar 26, 2013.

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  1. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Why would you switch medicham in on absol when bastiodon flat out walls it? Bastiodon take every single move from absol with ease, can set-up a sub as gallade comes in, counter the cc then use medicham to 1HKO both with HJK as gallade will be weakened with the counter. Absol sucker punch doesn't 1HKO due to the HP investment, so if absol leads the core can't lose at all.
  2. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce
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    Silvershadow234 nails it. Nowhere have i mentioned that i switch med in when absol is on the field. That is pointless and, like you said, every semi competent player knows this. Please point out where i've mentioned that i switch med in when absol's in the field. The line you've quoted, in that, what i meant was if the opponent leads with absol, and i lead with med, i will always have the upperhand.
  3. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    You said that you would always lead with Medicham. But besides that, absol does 25% to bastiodon, breakin it's sub and your core not working, as I mentioned earlier. Just a couple more Eva's into special defense would make the core work.
  4. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    4 SpAtk Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Bastiodon: 20.99% - 24.69%

    That isn't 25%...
  5. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    According to the honko calculator, 4 SpA fire blast life orb vs 252 HP/ 4 SpDef Bastiodon does 68-81 damage. Max HP for Bastiodon is 324. 81/324=25% according to my math.
  6. melvni

    melvni
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    So, like I said in my edit, Swamp-Rocket is right and I calced with -1 Gallade. I was testing something that failed horribly with Intimidate right beforehand and forgot to reset, so my core doesn't actually work.
  7. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Shuckleking assuming that it is capable of breaking its sub do you understand how miniscule the odds are of Absol max rolling its Fire Blast not just once but potentially 4 or 5 times in a row? Once you get to the third attack you're talking about that happening 2 times every 100,000 scenarios.

    Furthermore, you keep claiming that Medicham is switching in on Absol, taking a Night Slash and a Sucker Punch and dying. Then you contradict yourself with
    He leads with Medicham, no damage incurred. Medicham outspeeds due to Scarf and OHKOs, thus making it impossible for him to take two attacks from Absol.

    He isn't switching in Medicham into of Absol because its a mathematical improbability that Absol can ever beat Bastiodon. Miniscule odds of hitting 6 Fire Blasts (Protect) for max damage (1/13^6 power judging by the damage number you provided) on top of the odds of hitting all of those Fire Blasts (0.85^6). His core counters the mons provided.
  8. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    Yes, I completely agree, and your math is technically wrong, as fire blast has a 15% chance to miss each one, so by the 3rd attack it's 3 times every 20,000 (your example it's 10,000 not 100,000). So you are saying that this could not happen? It Could. Yes, I know it's about impossible to happen. But look at the kadabra and altaria/torterra example. There is 0% chance that kadabra dies if it uses HP Ice. For the given example, it's practically a 0% chance to happen. But if it's not a guarantee, then what is the percent error that is allowed to occur for the example to still hold true?

    I thought the purpose was that one of your pokes had to switch into the core and take a hit before the scenario began, like in the given example, kadabra had to switch into an attack that would bring it to its focus sash. Medicham could come into absol while it's night slashing, then sucker punch to kill. If the scenario is to have either poke on the field before the opponent attacks, then medicham works. But i thought this was't true as the example of sceptile not switching onto moltres means that an attack by the opponent happens first. And I'm not contradicting myself at all based on how I thought the process worked. Contradicting would be giving the whole example and then saying that bastiodon always come in first, which I did not do and do not appreciate that claim.

    The damage formula gives 16 values, though some of those values can be the same, so it's 1/16^6. Assuming best case scenario, player predicts protect and uses thunderbolt to preserve pp. But besides that, I know the core prett much almost always works, I would just like to know the lee-way percentage for future use.
  9. scorpdestroyer

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    Even with what you said, you still lose because when you switch Bastiodon in on Absol, he can simply Fire Blast you to break Sturdy, and then switch to Gallade as you sub and kill you with a double Close Combat, whilst Counter or Toxic can't do much back, afterwhich you Giga Impact to kill him with Medicham, Absol switches in and Night Slash + Sucker Punch to kill.
  10. Blizzard

    Blizzard @ NeverMeltIce
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    in such a scenario, i won't use giga impact. HJK is an OHKO on Gallade after it uses even one CC

    252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham (+Atk) Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Gallade: 142.96% - 167.87% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    . therfore i still have medi at full health. he sends absol, and i go for the KO.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    here is my version of what would happen. and it is right: (open)


    O sent Absol!
    pkbliz sent Bastiodon!

    Absol used FB! 25% damage!
    Bastiodon uses Substitute!

    Absol used FB! 25% damage! Substitute broke!
    Bastiodon used Substitute!

    Absol switched to Gallade!
    Bastiodon used Protect! it failed!

    Gallade used Close Combat! Sub broke! -1 Def. -1 Sp. def for Gallade!
    Bastiodon used Counter! it failed! ( i'd use Toxic, By the way)

    Gallade used CC! -2 Sp. def, -2 Def. !
    Bastiodon fainted!

    Pkblizz sent Medicham!
    pkbliz: i got this

    Medicham uses HJK!
    gallade fainted!
    O sent Absol!

    Absol used Sucker Punch! 75% Damage!
    Medicham used HJK!
    Absol Fainted!
    pkbliz won the match!

    pkbliz: GG
    O: nice core there.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Any other Questions? throw 'em at me.

    Also, somebody help me out.

    masara.byethost15.com:

    4 SpAtk Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Bastiodon: 20.99% - 24.69% (6-7 hits to KO)
    68-80 HP

    Honkalc:

    4 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bastiodon: 68-81 (20.98 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO
    (68, 69, 69, 70, 71, 71, 73, 74, 74, 75, 75, 77, 78, 78, 79, 81)

    which one am i supposed to believe? help me out please...
  11. melvni

    melvni
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    Turn 1: you switch in and Gallade attacks you
    Turn 2: you take another hit and restore your HP.
    Turn 3: you take a third hit and burn Gallade.
    Turn 4 (or whatever turn it is, you will have to eventually): you Rest and Gallade switches to Absol
    Turn 5: Absol uses Night Slash and you Sleep Talk, Absol has a 50% chance to be burnt, which is the same as the odds of hitting with DynamicPunch (I might be wrong but those odds don't seem good enough to me)
    Turn 6: Absol uses Night Slash; now, even if you successfully burn it, you're still KOed by a third Night Slash
    Turn 7: Absol Night Slashes and you die
  12. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Round 3

    Time for round 3!
    [​IMG]
    Aggron @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Head Smash
    - Heavy Slam
    - Low Kick
    - Aqua Tail

    [​IMG]
    Moltres @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Flamethrower
    - Hurricane
    - U-turn
    - Sleep Talk
  13. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    [​IMG]
    Simipour @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SDef
    - Surf
    - Substitute

    Switch in, survive with Sash, sweep with Torrent Surf. End of story.

    The minimum defensive EVs and IVs ensure even the resisted hits bring Simipour down to Torrent, so that Moltres won't have a coinflip's chance at surviving. In the event of U-Turn, Low Kick or Aqua Tail, simply Sub down to Torrent and you're in the clear.

    What are the chances of Moltres's Hurricane ruining things? Let's see, 70% (Hurricane hitting) * 30% (Confusion chance) * 50% (self-hit) = 10.5%. Nearly a 90% success rate? I'm golden, and that's if Moltres is in, not Aggron.
  14. melvni

    melvni
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    Reserving Cinccino

    Cinccino@Focus Sash
    Ability: Skill Link
    Nature: +SpAtk, -SpDef
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
    ~Rock Blast
    ~Hidden Power Fighting
    ~Tail Slap
    ~Bullet Seed

    Really not much needs to be said. Cinccino can switch in on anything because of Focus Sash and OHKOes both. Even with a neutral nature, Cinccino reaches 329 Speed, easily outpacing Moltres's 306.

    0Atk Cinccino (Neutral) Rock Blast vs 0HP/4Def Moltres (Neutral): 118% - 143% (380 - 460 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    252SpAtk Cinccino (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 116HP/0SpDef Aggron (Neutral): 104% - 123% (324 - 384 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
  15. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Wow this one looks hard x_x, but i think i have a core that can do the job! U-turn could be annoying at times but i think this core can take out Aggron+Moltres regardless.

    [​IMG]
    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Circle Throw

    [​IMG]
    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Thunder Wave

    Regirock can come in on Moltres's Flamethrower and Hurricane with relative ease, only having a small chance of being 3HKO'd by Hurricane with Stealth Rock up (and thats assuming Hurricane always hits!). Meanwhile Regirock can either simply OHKO Moltres with Rock Slide/Paralyze Moltres with twave or set up Stealth Rock as the opponent switches in Aggron, drastically cutting Moltres's life span. If the opponent does the latter, Poliwrath can switch in on Aggron pretty easily, only taking 40% maximum from Head Smash while posing an immediate threat in return with Circle Throw and Waterfall. An Impish Nature is used over Relaxed here to make sure Poliwrath can outrun any Aggron with the ev spread listed, making it slightly easier for Poliwrath+Regirock to counter the core. As an added bonus, both Pokemon can deter the Pokemon it doesnt immediately counter from switching in. With Regirock being able to paralyze Aggron or hit it with an Earthquake on the switch and Poliwrath hitting Moltres with a Waterfall and/or circle throwing it when it comes in, possibly racking up Stealth Rock damage and forcing Aggron to switch back into Poliwrath.

    Calcs (open)

    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 102-121 (28.02 - 33.24%) -- possible 4HKO

    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 81-96 (22.25 - 26.37%) -- possible 5HKO

    0- Atk Moltres U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 25-30 (6.86 - 8.24%) -- 9HKO at best

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 133-157 (34.63 - 40.88%) -- 61.89% chance to 3HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 119-141 (30.98 - 36.71%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.81%) -- possible 4HKO

    Poliwrath is immune to Aqua Tail.

    4 Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 352-420 (109.65 - 130.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    4 Atk Regirock Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 176-208 (56.77 - 67.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    0 Atk Poliwrath Circle Throw vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 136-168 (43.87 - 54.19%) -- 87.89% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 90-108 (29.03 - 34.83%) -- 66.06% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 164-194 (51.09 - 60.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  16. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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    Durant @ Focus Sash
    Hustle
    Jolly
    252 Atk / 252 Spe
    -Rock Slide
    -Superpower

    Survive due to Sash. Outspeed both and OHKO.

    252+ Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 452-536 (145.8 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 520-612 (161.99 - 190.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  17. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    @Molk don't even know why you posted the SR calcs for your side when there are none...
  18. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Oh, i forgot to uncheck stealth rock when making all those calcs haha, i was doing some damage calcs earlier and had Stealth Rock checked off for them, i'll edit in calcs w/o Stealth Rock now. I didnt remove Stealth Rock from the calcs where Regirock and Poliwrath are attacking, though. As Regirock can set up its own Stealth Rock for the core.
  19. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Alright, already foresaw this, but you have to hit 2 Hustled moves in a row. To connect an 80% accurate Superpower and a 72% accurate Rock Slide, your odds are 57.6%. Is that good enough to be considered a counter? This is not considering the fact that if you were completely predictable and the opponent switches to Moltres into 2 of your Superpowers, rendering your -2 Superpower unable to KO Aggron even after 2 Rock Slides, the latter being weakened by your 1st Superpower...assuming they all hit.
  20. scorpdestroyer

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    Crap I saw 252 Spd as 252 SpD. Unreserving Samurott.

    Reserving Primeape

    [​IMG]
    Primeape @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Anger Point
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    -Close Combat
    -Stone Edge
    -Rock Slide
    -Brick Break

    Primeape with Focus Sash can come in on any of the core's moves, survive and proceed to OHKO each of them with Close Combat or Stone Edge.

    If the core decides to play switching games, Moltres is still OHKO'd by Rock Slide after it takes a Close Combat, to ensure that Stone Miss doesn't get haxed up. Similarly, Brick Break OHKOs Aggron after it takes 2 Stone Edges, but its only real use is to save PP.

    Anger Point gives me a lovely +6 Attack boost if a crit happens although it won't matter anyway.

    Show Hide
    252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 408-484 (127.1 - 150.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 408-480 (131.61 - 154.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Primeape Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 308-364 (95.95 - 113.39%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Primeape Brick Break vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 256-304 (82.58 - 98.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Like Punchshroom said, there's only a 10.5% chance of me hitting myself in confusion, so.
  21. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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    Yeah, that's true. I'm not sure if I'm able to change it, but I found another one that's a counter (with only a 30% chance to fail)
  22. melvni

    melvni
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    Like it says in the rules,

    That's why I couldn't post again last round when I screwed up those calcs with Torkoal.
  23. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Hey look, a Pokemon that doesn't need a Focus Sash to win!

    [pimg]139[/pimg]
    Omastar @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Shell Armor
    EVs: 56 HP / 216 Def / 72 SpA / 164 Spe
    nature: Timid
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power Grass
    - Ice Beam

    With the given EVs, Omastar can survive a Head Smash and Hurricane from Aggron and Moltres, reach 205 (307 after the scarf) speed (Timid Moltres clocks in at 306, what a slowpoke), and OHKO both of them with Hydro Pump. Rest of the moves are filler, although it is worth noting Omastar cannot actually always OHKO Moltres with Surf due to not being that strong.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 56 HP / 216 Def Omastar: 249-294 (84.4 - 99.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Earthquake does less than Head Smash due to STAB)
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 191-225 (64.74 - 76.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    72 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 470-554 (151.61 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    72 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 356-420 (110.9 - 130.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I hope Hydro Pump isn't "too inaccurate" or something - I consider hitting 2 Hydro Pumps (64%) a good enough chance. This is especially considering Hurricane has a 30% chance to miss, therefore making Omastar often win with Surf only. This is for anyone who may think this isn't reliable enough :)
  24. col49

    col49 what.
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    Just because it bothers the hell out of me, Swamp-Rocket, your Omastar's EVs are inefficient; a spread of 56 HP / 96 Def / 120 SpA / 236 Spe and a Bold nature yields the same bulk (actually slightly higher due to a jump point) and Speed, but with more EVs to invest in SpA. Not like it really affects anything, since Surf still only has about a 50-50 shot at OHKOing Moltres even with the added SpA, but I couldn't not mention it, if that makes any sense :x

    Also, since I don't wanna make a basically irrelevant post, I'll go with this:

    [​IMG]
    Basculin @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Adaptability
    EVs: 192 Spd / 200 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    - Aqua Tail
    - Surf

    Basculin switches in, takes any singular hit from either Aggron or Moltres thanks to Focus Sash and OHKOs each with the appropriate move. Barring Aqua Tail misses, Hurricane confusion, and Fire Blast burns (all being unlikely), Basculin consistently wins ^_^

    Relevant Calcs:
    200 Atk Adaptability Basculin Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 324-384 (100.93 - 119.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0- SpA Adaptability Basculin Surf vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 312-368 (100.64 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  25. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    It is interesting to note that Moltres's Hurricane hax automatically knocks off 10.5% off your guaranteed success rate with your 1-pokemon counter: this means any single pokemon counter using inaccurate moves have to tread very carefully. For example, Swamp-Rocket has a 53.5% (64-10.5) chance of connecting 2 Hydro Pumps in a row and dodging Hurricane hax on the switch; NfskMjmMal in fact has now than a less than 50% (47.6% to be exact) of beating the core if pitted against Moltres first. Hell, even melvni's Cincinno can miss the Rock Blast should it not smack itself, though it's still a respectable 74.5% of success.
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