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RU Stage 14 - Nidoqueen Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by SilentVerse, Jan 16, 2013.

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  1. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Hey guys, welcome to this round of RU's suspect discussion thread! As I stated in the OP of the np thread, we will be using this thread to see what you guys want suspected for the round, and whether or not you guys feel that there are any suspects deserving of being suspected in the first place. Feel free to discuss any Pokemon you feel should be suspected and whether or not the current metagame is balanced, but make sure to back up your posts with reasoning. This thread will be closely monitored, and posts that are not backed with reasoning and / or do not contribute to the discussion will be deleted.

    This thread will be closed in a week, on January 24th, when the alt identification thread will be put up and it will be announced which Pokemon are going to be suspected, or if there are even going to be suspects for this round. Remember, the posts you guys make in this thread will determine whether or not we will have suspects for the round and which Pokemon will be suspected. However, just because a Pokemon is discussed does not necessarily mean that it will be suspected! It is up to you guys to convince myself and Oglemi that a certain Pokemon is worth suspecting; otherwise, there will be no suspects for this round.

    In any case, have fun discussing!
  2. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    Clearly, the only suspect that needs to be looked at is Nidoqueen. In order to determine whether or not it is overpowered, two questions need to be answered. First, does countering a playstyle (stall in this case) constitute a Pokemon to be overpowered for a metagame? Secondly, if that's the case, then does stall truly have no ways of working around Nidoqueen?

    The best way to prove a theory is to look at past suspect tests. The easiest and first thing that came to my mind was the Genesect ban. Obviously, Genesect was a lot more versatile, but even when it wasn't using Rock Polish, it countered heavy offense teams, just by using the Choice Scarf set. If a Pokemon is so good that it can take out an entire playstyle, I firmly believe it should be banned.

    That being said, I think stall has options to covering Nidoqueen. Sure, it makes using stall a lot harder, but it is still viable in the right player's hands. Still, I don't really use stall in OU, let alone RU. The best person to answer this would probably be SilentVerse, but he'll probably just say the same thing. It makes it more difficult, but it's still manageable.
  3. blarajan

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    I'm more inclined to think that there are no viable suspects for this round. This comes from the idea that Nidoqueen, when a suspect, was voted to remain in RU in a metagame that was significantly better for it. However, in this current metagame, with the rerelease of Hail into RU, Nidoqueen's effectiveness has basically dropped. Before, there were practically no Ice-type attacks floating around, the most common of which being Cryogonal's Ice Beam. However, the release of Hail introduced an archetype of team that capitalizes on Nidoqueen's previously unused weakness. Pokemon such as Snover, Rotom-F, Glaceon, Walrein, Piloswine, Vanilluxe, and Cryogonal are significantly more popular in this metagame--all of which have attacks that OHKO Nidoqueen. Furthermore, due to Hail, popular Pokemon that gave Nidoqueen trouble, such as Entei, Slowking, and Emboar have all risen in popularity to deal with that new threat. All of these Pokemon hurt Nidoqueen a lot as well, all of which OHKOing with the respective set (though Slowking can't when using a bulky one). I do not believe Nidoqueen, in a metagame that is significantly less hospitable to it than the one it was voted to remain in, is a viable suspect for that reason. When teambuilding, I have even sometimes started considering Nidoqueen a liability, as it is fodder for Hail teams. It is still a fantastic Pokemon, don't get me wrong. This metagame is just much harder for it than the last one. It's definitely not broken in this one, assuming people thought it was in the last one.

    fuck silentverse
  4. HuntSaboteur

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    I've also seen a drop in Nidoqueen usage, so I have to agree with Blarajan that it isn't suspect-worthy. However, if it keeps having 5 percent more usage than the second highest Pokemon, it should be suspect tested next round. Although I actually didn't realise what was precipitating the fall in popularity, it occurred to me after reading the above post that it is indeed Hail. It comes across as scarier than it actually is, especially given its base 76 speed and the meta's preference for running it on Modest as opposed to Timid.

    However, whatever people say, and I know it's Ice-weak, Druddigon should be suspect tested! Dragon typing is like Drought Vulpix in that it is simply too powerful for RU, as it resists all three of the major special attacking types and is only weak to one other type (we'll exclude opposing Dragons from this analysis, as they are weak to and good against each other, and there's only one viable one in RU). Granted it's Ice, but Druddigon almost forces people to run teams with Ice-types other than Cryogonal on them, which in turn means that people would need to run Hail teams, and a Snover-dominated meta is not what we want.

    Druddigon also has solid defensive stats, and as it isn't going to be a special sweeper anyway, it only has one bad stat. Again, this might be Speed, but few unboosted mon in the meta are able to 1HKO Druddigon (I've found that I've had to resort to Volbeat baton passing in order to get a Pokemon on the field that could beat Druddigon!)
  5. Limitless

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    I think you're fundamentally looking at this the wrong way. Essentially, you're looking at the weak spots and just picking apart Nidoqueen. The issue with that is you're ignoring what Nidoqueen does best - put heavy pressure on stall. If stall is not viable due to Nidoqueen dominating that playstyle, then in my opinion, it should be banned. The real question you need to be answering in your post is whether or not Nidoqueen dominates stall, not what stops Nidoqueen. Everyone knows that Nidoqueen isn't the fastest and that hail fucks it over. The root of why Nidoqueen would be overpowered strictly lies in its ability to block another playstyle out of contention.
  6. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]

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    Are you actually using usage stats as reasoning for suspecting a mon? Because that is completely stupid. Usage stats do not matter at all when discussing potential suspects, and just show how used a pokemon is by the mainly average players on PS, not whether something has amazing speed and/or power or the ability to wall 90% of the tier.

    Druddigon is also not incredible enough to be a suspect either. Sure, it has decent bulk and great power, but it is pretty easy to revenge kill with powerful attackers such as Durant and Moltres, and takes damage from all passive methods eg. Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Spikes and hail damage. It lacks recovery as well, and LO recoil also saps away at Druddigon's health. Unless you are running a mixed set, Druddigon is walled by Steelix and tangrowth. Also, dragon typing is most certainly not too powerful for RU. The vast majority of Fire, water and grass types have options to hit Druddigon hard, so Kabutops has Stone Edge, Moltres has Hurricane, and Sceptile can use Hidden Power Ice which 2HKO's druddigon.

    I agree that Druddigon is a powerful pokemon, and that it can often get a kill every match, but this makes it no different from the likes of Escavalier and Aggron, who are able to do a very similar thing to offensive teams, and also have a great amount of bulk. Like these two, it is slow and relatively easy to revenge kill but very hard to switch into. Because of the fact that it is slow and relatively easy to revenge kill, druddigon is not broken.
  7. blarajan

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    I'm going to entirely disagree. This is because we already answered these questions regarding Nidoqueen. My tl;dr is that the effect of Nidoqueen on Stall's decline is being attributed only to Nidoqueen, when it is actually a combination of BW 2's naturally more offensive RU metagame. I wrote an extensive post here. I believe arguments from that suspect round are incredibly pertinent for this round, as this RU metagame and that RU metagame are basically the same, except for Hail, Durant, and Cofagrigus. Hail and Durant are additions that make Nidoqueen's life miserable, while losing Cofagrigus was another huge drop for stall. I do not think Nidoqueen is what is causing stall to be unviable. RU itself did that. Why do you think Cresselia RU was so stall infested? It's because the combination of Cresselia + Poliwrath (but just mainly Cresselia) handled almost all of the offensive threats in two teamslots, giving stall room to actually make a team. It's really difficult to do that with the defensive Pokemon we have considering the sheer power of the offensive Pokemon. And even assuming for a ridiculous second that Nidoqueen is what's smashing stall, there are Pokemon that can deal with it, as you said. I have been involved with a rather successful Stall team--the key to "countering" Nidoqueen is bulky Psychic-type Pokemon. But Stall will never counter every Pokemon in this RU tier; it's not Nidoqueen's fault. And when the metagame is significantly worse for Nidoqueen than any in the past? I think we found ourselves a keeper.
  8. Limitless

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    I wasn't disagreeing with Nidoqueen's tier placement. All I was trying to point out was that the only possible way for Nidoqueen to be viewed as overpowered would be its presence in the metagame against stall teams. Therefore, any other viewpoint bashing Nidoqueen isn't really relevant, and is simply making Nidoqueen seem like a weaker presence in the metagame than it actually is. I agree with you that stall can handle Nidoqueen, and that there are more prominent threats to it. However, it's still a large threat for stall to deal with, and accordingly, the level of dominance over stall teams should be the only variable being judged in this debate.
  9. sfgiantsfanmike

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    My two coppers on Nidoqueen: Great 'mon right now. Powerful, can take a hit or two and is versatile; howver, it's not that fast and if you want her operating at max efficency she can be one shotted by a number of pokemon. Would recommend her to anyone coming to RU but she's definitely not bro,en.

    My two coppers on Druddigon: Most under-utilized 'mon in tier. This thing is a beast: can rip offensive 'mons to shreds, has decent bulk (mine nas survived non-stab ice beams w/aplom) and since he's naturally slow you can invest in power and bulk without missing a beat; howver, to be truly scary he MUST have Trick Room support. Very versatile but slow on it's own and not super bulky.
  10. Nails

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    Playing against nidoqueen is like walking around barefoot in a room full of mousetraps. Yeah, if you're careful you can get by without getting hurt but you have to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid getting hurt. And even if you prepare carefully the slightest misstep results in a lost toe (pokemon).
  11. TROP

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    By the standards that Nidoqueen could get suspected, Sigilyph and Magmortar should be suspected too.

    Let's start with Sigi here. Unlike queen, you are forced to attack this thing as it can't be wore down by passive damage(your fault for using such a weakling full team). That set is a Queen Style(lo 4 attacks) that gives it the coverage to deal with pretty much any defensive mon in the tier not called Mandibuzz and able to 2hko all of them with minimal hazard support, while still being fast enough to outspeed up to timid magmortar with a modest nature if the easier 2hkoes are wanted. And inb4 BUT YOU CAN PARA IT EASILY UNLIKE QUEEN, you can do the same thing with a Druddigon against queen as long as you avoid coming in sludge wave or earth power, she will be made incredibly easy to deal with later. This thing has also been in ru for a while and no one ever had problems with it when the only relevant move it got was Heat Wave that most of the time is not really needed and its job can be done with Air Slash.

    Sigi vs its "counters":

    Mandi is not a lot of viable stall mons. While queen has Lickilicky, Uxie, Cryogonal in and out of hail, and Clefable that do more than just countering her.
    HP ground 2hkoes it, Crunch doesn't kill Sigi, Air Slash 2hkoes after hazards and has that flinch rate. Not to mention that this is not really viable to start with.
    HP gound 2hkoes no matter what with minimal hazard support from the likes of Smeargle or Crustle. And inb4para, while it might look like a temporry win, Regirock can still lose because Stone Edge is not a move the defensive variant wants to use and will be unable to ohko sigi, and a Regirock at 50% is something mons like Absol and Moltres will love to see. It is also fucked if Sigi has Energy ball and scared out something like Poliwrath earlier.

    See Regirock, but change HP ground for Shadow Ball or Energy Ball to take care of it. Sigi's best friend Absol can pursuit it if really needed.

    Only legitimate mon here, but guess what? It can beat queen too, and now that snow warning is allowed, it is even easier to do because all mandi needs to do is avoid coming in to take a hit and spam roost until nidoqueen is in brave bird+hail kill range. Made even easier with hail teammates like Garbodor or Qwilfish that are able to get spikes up easily.

    Sure it gets paralyzed, but it will be extremely weak to check stuff later allowing pokemon like Moltres or hail mons o take down easily when they meet, so even if sigi is paralyzed, the player using it wins in this scenario.

    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 157-187 (43.85 - 52.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Amazing counter bro. Sure you can para it, but same thing can be done to Nidoqueen as long it doesn't switch in to take a hit.

    Quag gets outstalled here, and actually loses to Sigi depending on the psychic stab it is using. Not to mention that only the inferior Curse version should be even thinking of coming in against Sigi. And if for some random reason Sigi is using CM+Stored power, it wins even through Unaware.


    Magmortar is pretty much a worse defensive typing but stronger Nidoqueen (when not holding ebelt)that can bring down anything stall dares to bring against him with incredible ease. It has also been available for RU use for way longer than Nidoqueen, and while it can be hurt by Stealth Rock, like with any sr weak mon, it should be used togeter with a spinner like Kabutops to make its lifespan longer. It also beats hail pretty much by himself, affecting more playstyles than queen. Want more? take Dittocrow's and Silentverse's stall team from BW1, and you will see it is weak to a well played Magmortar with pursuit support to eliminate Slowking easily. Only reliable answer to this on a stall team that is actually viable is sp.def druddigon


    And finally, Queen is not broken. For more offensive oriented teams, Queen is somewhat similar to Hydreigon(yes, I'm going that far): it is hard as hell to switch in safely against, but low speed allows the player to easily revenge it.As well as exploitable and common weaknesses. There is a reason why most banned offensive pokemon in all tiers this gen are fast or have a way to boost their speed. And as for the stall part, if an already available pokemon like Magmortar was able to do the same thing before with only 1 really viable mon to stop it for long without getting suspected, there is no reason to suspect queen when she has at least 4 truly viable mons to take care of her. What blarajan said about hail and queen is true as well.

    ps: stop trying to suspect Nidoqueen until it gets the correct voter pool to get banned, because unlike Excadrill, this is not insanely broken to need really damn specific mons to don't be 6-0'd by it using any kind of team.
  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I don't care what happens to Nidoqueen or not, but I honestly don't see why it should be banned. Sure, it has a very high Special Attack, great coverage, and no LO recoil, but it has some flaws that make it "not broken". It has a pretty low Speed, so you can revenge it with Kabutops or Mesprit easily due to her weaknesses. I am also sure that Cryo can take repeated onslaughts from Queen and retaliate with a pretty strong Ice Beam. The arrival of Hail and Durant make Nidoqueen's life worse, really. She will struggle with Hail, as BlizzSpam teams can take her down easily. Durant could take her down and soon sweep. Also, SD Scolipede could be a shaky check too.

    I really don't think stall is made completely unviable. By this logic for banning Nidoqueen, we should ban Moltres too because he wrecks stall as well. Honestly, there are ways of dealing with Nidoqueen in stall. Cryogonal is one great example, with insane SpD it can take a lot and survive a Fire Blast, and retaliate with Ice Beam, as I said earlier. Clefable could also work too, and to a much smaller extent Mandibuzz. Really, Nidoqueen merely makes stall harder to use but it's still manageable.

    So really, I don't think Nidoqueen is broken.
  13. SilentVerse

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    I think that when you guys consider whether or not Nidoqueen is broken, or even if it should be a suspecting, you should also take into account the effects it has on the metagame. In my opinion, Nidoqueen has certainly had a profound effect on the metagame since it's introduction into the tier, and while this is not necessarily a bad thing, I feel that Nidoqueen, in addition to its already superb stallbreaking ability, shifts the metagame in such a way to favor offensive teams significantly more than balance or semi stall, and I feel that this does not show a balanced metagame.

    First of all, let's take a look at what actually beats Nidoqueen. Offensive teams generally have few issues with it, so that's a given, and balance / bulky offensive teams can use Pokemon such as Uxie and Mesprit as strong Nidoqueen checks, as the threat of Nidoqueen is so great that for most people, it's a better idea to use Uxie or Mesprit to solidly check Nidoqueen rather than attempting to play around her. From the usage stats, we can also assume that Nidoqueen has had an effect on Uxie / Mesprit usage; pre BW2, it was at 13 with about 10% usage, while the next month after BW2 was released, it soared up to 5 with about 14% usage. While 4% may not seem too significant, keep in mind that that's more than enough usage needed to bring a Pokemon from NU up to RU, for example, so in my opinion, that 4% increase is quite significant. Furthermore, in the month after BW2 was released, Nidoqueen was the 2nd most used Pokemon just after Cofagrigus. Therefore, while it is most likely not the only factor, we can attribute Uxie's significant rise in popularity due to the introduction of Nidoqueen into the tier.

    Now, given that Uxie has risen to counter Nidoqueen, there is most likely another chain response to support Nidoqueen by the increase in Pokemon that are able to deal with Uxie. While this is difficult to give evidence for, as Cofagrigus was also in the tier much of the time Nidoqueen was here, and it shares many of the same checks and counters as Uxie, we do have evidence from the months that Cofagrigus was removed in. In the month after Nidoqueen was introduced into the tier, Drapion sat at #14 with 10% usage. In October, one month after Cofagrigus was removed from the tier, Drapion stayed at a similar place, at #15 with about 10% usage. Similarly, Spiritomb soared from #31 when Nidoqueen was introduced to #21 the month after Cofagrigus was removed. While it would somewhat make sense for these Pokemon to drop after Cofagrigus was removed, as the most important threat they would counter had been removed, they instead stayed at the same usage or increased, which must mean that there is some other factor that is keeping them at such high usage. While Spiritomb's rise may be attributed in part due to the rise of Fighting-types from Cofagrigus's leave, I still believe that part of the reason it and Drapion did not really drop was because of their ability to beat the bulky Psychics that give Nidoqueen trouble.

    How do these kinds of changes shift the metagame? Well, for starters, Nidoqueen itself already gives a lot of slower teams a lot of issues. Walls such as Tangrowth, Steelix, and other excellent Pokemon who counter much of the metagame are incredibly difficult to use with Nidoqueen around, as since they are slower and risk being OHKO'd by Nidoqueen, Nidoqueen forces them into a lethal guessing game, that Nidoqueen has a significant advantage in. Uxie and Mesprit are also act more as pivots who keep momentum, not walls, and therefore favor bulky / heavy offense teams more than the traditional walls that were used before Nidoqueen's drop. And, because the Pokemon who beat Uxie and Mesprit, such as Absol, Drapion, and Spiritomb, can be relatively tricky for stall team to deal with, especially with Nidoqueen discouraging the use of some of their best counters, it's no wonder that the metagame has become significantly more offensive. Granted, usage stats are not very solid evidence, due to the myriad of factors that are in play. However, as Nidoqueen is currently the #1 Pokemon, it seems logical to me that it would have the greatest impact on the metagame.

    Some people have claimed, however, that Pokemon such as Sigilyph, Swords Dance Gallade, and Expert Belt Magmortar do give stall a lot of issues. However, none of these Pokemon are as easy to fit into a team as Nidoqueen, as the queen's access to Stealth Rock and slew of resistances, which grant her the ability to check a slew of threats, makes Nidoqueen a very easy Pokemon to fit onto teams. Furthermore, none of those other Pokemon have quite the perfectly placed stall breaking capabilities that Nidoqueen has; Sigilyph and Magmortar can be paralyzed, and the latter is hit by all hazards, Lum Berry Gallade is closer to Nidoqueen, but ultimately does not have Nidoqueen's hit taking-potential on the physical side, and lacks the many useful resistances Nidoqueen has to make switching in painless, hence why none of them are as dominant or metagame-changing as Nidoqueen is. Furthermore, the Pokemon that beat these Pokemon at beat things other than the Pokemon they are supposed to beat; Regirock (idk what you're smoking TropiOUs, but Regirock isn't 2hkoed by unboosted LO Sigilyph lol), Mandibuzz (who also loses to Nidoqueen lol), and Spiritomb all check way more than just Sigilyph, whereas the likes of Lickilicky, Uxie, Gardevoir, and Clefable (Cryogonal is a shaky check, and it really doesn't counter Nidoqueen...) cannot do much other than counter Nidoqueen, as Lickilicky and Clefable are both mediocre outside of beating Nidoqueen because of the fact that many of RU's most relevant special attackers use Focus Blast, while Uxie lacks reliable recovery and Gardevoir, while the best out of the lot, can be taken advantage of due to the fact that Wish + Protect takes 2 turns to heal with. Nidoqueen is simply on a far different level than RU's other stallbreakers.

    Furthermore, the problem with the current metagame with Nidoqueen is that offense is so utterly dominant that stall has become almost non-existent, and balance has become marginalized. Most successful teams that I've seen in this time have been either Heavy Offense teams, Bulky Offense, and Hail, and I do not feel that this represent a balanced metagame. In an ideal metagame, "all viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other". Remember, we banned Cresselia because it centralized the metagame around it and made stall far too dominant over offense and balance. Now, Nidoqueen is doing the exact same thing, except for offense instead of stall, and I do not feel that this is acceptable. If just because of this, Nidoqueen deserves to be a suspect, simply because of the incredible effect it has had on the metagame.
    _______________________________________________

    Also, if you guys are worried that because of my stance on Nidoqueen that I'm going to suspect it, don't worry about it, as Oglemi will have the final say on what will be suspected.
  14. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    We have a problem. The problem is that there are no clear-cut definitions for the reasoning being used to argue for or against Nidoqueen. Everyone has their own thoughts and ideas. We need a frame of reference.

    Whether or not you believe Nidoqueen to be broken, consider this frame of reference before making your argument.

    Maybe now we can get on the same page.
  15. DittoCrow

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    I doubt people will be able to get on the same page. The main condition in question is definitely the second one, "significantly skews the metagame in an overly undesirable direction." Many (half?) of the people do not think the current metagame is ideal, while the other half think the opposite, of course. The only way we can come to a conclusion and to avoid countless tl;dr posts that will get us no where is to compare the metagame with and without Nidoqueen side by side; that is, if more people still feel that it deserves to be a suspect.
  16. Pocket

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    Thanks, Texas - that's a good guideline to guide this discussion.

    I do not think Nidoqueen is broken in current RU. This may simply be because of the offensive nature of current RU that pressures Nidoqueen from rampaging through teams without being severely crippled in the process. Whatever the reason may be, the metagame has well adapted to Nidoqueen's presence without over-preparation, and to me these results indicate a non-broken Pokemon.

    Whether Nidoqueen's presence is "unhealthy" for the metagame is more controversial. SilentVerse has elaborately listed all the positive qualities of Nidoqueen that makes it a top-tier RU mon. However to me it just seems "banning the next best mon; one less threat with which to be dealt." You argue that stall would be more feasible with the absence of Nidoqueen, but there are still mons like Durant, Moltres, and Druddigon that will plow through these teams anyways (and no, balance works perfectly fine with or without Nidoqueen). It feels rather artificial to me to arbitrarily state that "this is too much offense for RU," when the tier provides already ample of ways to check this threat. If you really want to run full-stall then what's wrong with running a Lickilicky / Clefable paired with Uxie, etc? Add some Spikes support to wear Nidoqueen down faster. Balance and Offense have offensive means of checking Nidoqueen. There are also plenty of tanky mons like Druddigon, Bouffalant, and Slowking, all of which can tank a hit and retaliate back.

    I find it quite a bit ban-happy to ban Nidoqueen for the insult it has caused to more defensive teams; it's certainly not the only factor that have caused the downfall of stall in RU, so banning Nidoqueen would most likely not solve the problem, only lessen it. I don't think it's worth losing such a key member in RU.

    Sorry if my thoughts are a bit unorganized - need to do other stuff ;/
  17. Honko

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    It doesn't matter if you "do not think the current metagame is ideal". Sorry to disappoint, but we're never going to reach an "ideal" metagame. There are way, way, way too many variables here for that to happen, even if we could magically reach some definition of an ideal metagame that we all agree on. What matters is when something is making the metagame distinctly bad (aka "breaking" the metagame -- not just "tilting", or "shifting", or even necessarily "defining", but breaking). Those are the things that should be suspect. That's pretty much the point of the post Texas quoted. The question you should ask yourself is "does the metagame suck?" If your answer is no, then there shouldn't be any suspects. Period.

    My answer is no. This meta does not suck. There is plenty of room for variety in teambuilding, both in the Pokemon and teamstyles available. I think this meta is actually pretty good; not the ideal meta of my dreams maybe, but certainly not a broken metagame. Given that, any suspect votes right now would be frivolous in my opinion.

    Also I want to strongly agree with Pocket on one important point: balance is doing just fine in this meta. It's not "use offense or go home". If balanced teams were actually at such a huge disadvantage as SV seems to be saying, I would agree that there's a problem in the meta, but that's simply not the case.
  18. WelshDragonite

    WelshDragonite

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    33
    To be Perfectly Honest I find Nidoqueen Abit broken eventhough I Like using it. I used to of the sets so far which is Defensive and Offensive. Sheer Force on Nidoqueen has the true power specially with Life orb for a Offensive set which can dominate most pokes with little counter. I Used a defensive Nidoqueen to set up Stealth Rocks or Toxic spikes and phase out the pokemon until I hear that Nidoqueen can actualy be offensive nowdays.

    Here is my Set as an Example.

    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen (F)
    Trait: Bold
    EV Spread: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SPd
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Sheer force
    Move Sets
    -Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes
    -Ice Beam
    -Dragon Tail/Roar
    -Earth Power

    I have not used this set in quite a while on showdown or PO. Nidoqueen can set up rocks and can phase out the pokemon using Dragon Tail or Roar. Ice beam is used to take out Flying Types and Earth Power can OHKO a Aggron with SR on the field. Whether Nidoqueen is broken or not but I never played RU a lot of times so I wont know these things much as you RU players do. I think Nidoqueen might be UU material but should Nidoqueen be UU material or goes to BL2 Like Cress is in, Who knows we shall see.
  19. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,744
    Okay so silentverse and I have had several discussions about nidoqueen over the past couple days and I'm going to try and highlight some of the relevant arguments for both sides. Full logs can be found: http://pastebin.com/1JcmcM6i http://pastebin.com/HBFSZEjD http://pastebin.com/FtqxNQ8z

    Some discussion on potential checks and counters to Nidoqueen (open)

    1[20:25] <SilentVerse> tho seriously texas
    01[20:25] <SilentVerse> gimme some counters to queen
    01[20:25] <SilentVerse> that beat a lot of other pokes

    01[20:25] <SilentVerse> :)
    [20:25] <Texas> fable, uxie, offensive teams
    [20:25] <Texas> !
    [20:26] <Texas> and druddi/tomb as checks
    01[20:27] <SilentVerse> tomb
    01[20:27] <SilentVerse> is a pretty shitty check
    01[20:27] <SilentVerse> because it's only avoids being 2hkoed if it's sdef
    01[20:27] <SilentVerse> and can only burn in return :(
    01[20:27] <SilentVerse> fable doesn't really check that much
    [20:28] <Texas> sucker does a lot
    01[20:28] <SilentVerse> and has to use softboiled to beat queen, which means that
    01[20:28] <SilentVerse> it can't beat moltres
    [20:28] <Texas> and most tomb i see switch in take like 40
    01[20:28] <SilentVerse> o.o
    [20:28] <Texas> i think ghost resists poison does it not?
    01[20:28] <SilentVerse> 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Spiritomb: 168-199 (55.26 - 65.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    01[20:28] <SilentVerse> well i guess
    01[20:29] <SilentVerse> it's a decent check
    01[20:29] <SilentVerse> but you can't really afford just checks on stall
    01[20:29] <SilentVerse> especially when you're up against nidoqueen who's so difficult to wear down
    [20:29] <Texas> why are you using just a spiritomb to check queen if you;re running stall >_>
    01[20:29] <SilentVerse> ok OBviously you can use
    01[20:29] <SilentVerse> other mons
    01[20:29] <SilentVerse> i suppose cryo / slowking / spiritomb can CHECK queen
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> but that's still a mediocre at best answer to queen
    [20:30] <Texas> use like lickilicky, uxie and sdef slowking
    [20:30] <Texas> if you want to stall
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> what does
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> lickilicky beat other than nidoqueen
    [20:30] <Texas> sdef slowking is a p strong answer to queen i think
    [20:30] <Texas> moltres
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking is ok i guess
    [20:30] <Texas> other special attackers
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> nah licki loses to that too
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> >.>
    [20:30] <Texas> sdef slowking takes what
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> and it suffers from the same problem as clefable
    [20:30] <Texas> 50ish from lo tbolt?
    [20:30] <Texas> and nothing from anything else
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> in that it's forced to wish + protect every time it comes in on queen
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> troo
    01[20:30] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking is ok
    01[20:31] <SilentVerse> though that means that you'll need another answer to stuff like entei
    [20:31] <Texas> qwilfish strong
    01[20:31] <SilentVerse> uxie tho
    [20:31] <Texas> since spikes wears down queen too
    01[20:31] <SilentVerse> is not a mon that i'd personally use on stall
    01[20:31] <SilentVerse> idk, i've just never seen it work on a successful stall team tbh
    01[20:31] <SilentVerse> so basically there's like
    [20:32] <Texas> i think that uxie is stuck a lot in traditional roles
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> sdef slowking and gardevoir
    [20:32] <Texas> and its rarely adapted for stall
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> and a bunch of checks
    [20:32] <Texas> no silentverse
    [20:32] <Texas> uxie is in there too
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> i suppose
    [20:32] <Texas> just because you wnt use it doesnt mean it isnt legi
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> ok, sdef slowking, gardevoir, and uxie
    [20:32] <Texas> aside from that more or less yes
    [20:32] <Texas> licky and fable are stronger checks
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> eh
    [20:32] <Texas> bulky psychics etc
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> licky and fable
    01[20:32] <SilentVerse> can't really do much back to queen t ho
    [20:33] <Texas> heal+stoss
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> they can't toxic, so they can only whittle it down with stoss or slam
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> that's pretty risky tho
    [20:33] <Texas> although
    [20:33] <Texas> if it body slams
    [20:33] <Texas> and queen gets para'd
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> because you're like 4hkoing queen
    [20:33] <Texas> !
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> and you gotta hope that it doesn't get a crit
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> which is very likely to happen
    [20:33] <Texas> sheer forc enegates crits
    [20:33] <Texas> !
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> considering how many times it's hitting your mons
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> f'naaa
    01[20:33] <SilentVerse> x)
    01[20:34] <SilentVerse> so yeah, i mean
    01[20:34] <SilentVerse> licki and clefable are ok
    01[20:34] <SilentVerse> but having used them, idk i just hate how they basically only beat queen
    01[20:34] <SilentVerse> and not much else :/
    01[20:34] <SilentVerse> + the bulky psychics are really really vulnerable to pursuit
    [20:34] <Texas> so we're saying it has 3 good and viable queen counters, a few strong checks and a bunch of weaker checks
    [20:34] <Texas> in terms of stall
    01[20:35] <SilentVerse> yes
    [20:35] <Texas> queen + pursuit i dont think is worth banning though
    [20:35] <Texas> thats almost the same concept as dragmag

    01[20:35] <SilentVerse> well
    01[20:35] <SilentVerse> perhaps not
    01[20:35] <SilentVerse> but it does show how easy
    01[20:35] <SilentVerse> it can be to support queen
    01[20:36] <SilentVerse> and remove it's counters
    [20:36] <Texas> certainly, and if you are dedicated to creating a full stall team such things must be considered when teambuilding

    01[20:36] <SilentVerse> idk queen is a tough pickle
    01[20:36] <SilentVerse> troo
    01[20:36] <SilentVerse> except it's very difficult
    1[20:36] <SilentVerse> to counter queen + pursuit

    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> and considering how widely it's used
    [20:37] <Texas> i would imagine that to be true
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> it's a very big problem imo
    [20:37] <Texas> stuff like reflect cryo can handle it tho
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> reflect cryo is ok
    [20:37] <Texas> and cryo is now ev'd to beat queen
    [20:37] <Texas> so it can reflect stall
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> it still checks
    [20:37] <Texas> for misses/pp
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> queen
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> :/
    [20:37] <Texas> *recover
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> fire blast does a shitton tho
    [20:37] <Texas> like 65ish
    01[20:37] <SilentVerse> yeah
    01[20:38] <SilentVerse> which is more than cryo can recover
    [20:38] <Texas> so its netting 9% each recover+lefites
    01[20:38] <SilentVerse> + the 25% from sr
    [20:38] <Texas> and FB only has 8 PP
    01[20:38] <SilentVerse> it's dying really quick still tho
    [20:38] <Texas> so it has to predict the switch with FB
    [20:38] <Texas> and then then hit two more
    [20:38] <Texas> without getting killed by IB
    01[20:38] <SilentVerse> not necessarily
    01[20:38] <SilentVerse> tbolt / sludge wave on the switch work just fine
    [20:38] <Texas> 9% net, three=37
    [20:38] <Texas> *27
    [20:39] <Texas> ah, but then you're starting from a 100%ish cryo
    [20:39] <Texas> after attack, rocks, and recover
    [20:39] <Texas> before you hit FB
    [20:39] <Texas> the same turn
    01[20:39] <SilentVerse> true
    01[20:39] <SilentVerse> the cryo still has to basically fish for a miss tho
    01[20:39] <SilentVerse> since fb still kos before it runs out of pp
    [20:39] <Texas> if its the latter scenario it generally beats out queen though
    1[20:39] <SilentVerse> not in my experience :/
    [20:40] <Texas> since it would take 6 consecutive i think to KO
    [20:40] <Texas> disregarding damage variation
    [20:40] <Texas> anda gain, without getting KOd by ice beam itself
    01[20:40] <SilentVerse> cryo only does like 50% with ice beam iirc
    01[20:40] <SilentVerse> maybe like 60%
    [20:41] <Texas> gotta be more than 50 lol
    01[20:41] <SilentVerse> ok fine :p
    01[20:41] <SilentVerse> 76%~
    01[20:42] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen still usually comes out on top though in my experience
    [20:42] <Texas> at the very least cryo will have crippled queen before going down
    01[20:42] <SilentVerse> troo
    [20:42] <Texas> so saying the reflect cryo can handle pursuit+queen
    01[20:42] <SilentVerse> but then nidoqueen still gets a very valuable kill
    [20:43] <Texas> is not fallacious
    01[20:43] <SilentVerse> reflect cryo beats pursuit+queen


    Discussion on Queen meta and How teams deal with Queen (open)

    01[20:44] <SilentVerse> i also believe
    01[20:44] <SilentVerse> that nidoqueen is incredibly centralizing too
    01[20:44] <SilentVerse> i mean, look at the current metagame
    [20:44] <Texas> thats a reasonable argument but I dont think i agree with it for the following reasons
    01[20:44] <SilentVerse> almost every competant team that i've seen
    01[20:44] <SilentVerse> uses uxie
    01[20:44] <SilentVerse> because the NEED that queen counter
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> for consistency

    [20:45] <Texas> as we've seen, RU is consistently at around 60 mons, and the recent shifts only increased these
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> furthermore
    [20:45] <Texas> and while queen is the #1 mon by a 5% margin
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen has made so many pokemon liabilities
    [20:45] <Texas> the fact that the other stuff is much lower
    [20:45] <Texas> demonstrates greater diversity
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> still
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> remember manectric?
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen
    [20:45] <Texas> it used to be good
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> galvantula?
    [20:45] <Texas> queen makes it bad
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen
    01[20:45] <SilentVerse> steelix / tangrowth?
    [20:46] <Texas> this is part of the cycle of tiering lol
    01[20:46] <SilentVerse> bad because of queen and the offensive shift
    [20:46] <Texas> also galvy isnt bad per se
    [20:46] <Texas> giga does like 30 i think
    [20:46] <Texas> hp ice like 45ish
    [20:46] <Texas> and i think the offensive shift has more to do with it than queen does
    [20:46] <Texas> queen was just part of the catalyst
    [20:46] <Texas> int erms of uxie
    01[20:46] <SilentVerse> a very big part of the catalyst imo
    [20:46] <Texas> i think its just the best queen option
    [20:46] <Texas> and this the most used
    [20:46] <Texas> offensive teams for example
    [20:47] <Texas> dont necessarily need the queen check
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> yes
    [20:47] <Texas> but uxie provides other functions
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> but literally every other team archetype
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> needs queen
    [20:47] <Texas> so the queen checking is a bonus
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> err
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> *uxie
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> and idk, all the balance teams that i've seen
    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> are really just offense with
    [20:47] <Texas> for balance either that or a combination of mons including slowking that can collectively resist its attacks, yes i agree

    01[20:47] <SilentVerse> uxie / maybe another pivot
    [20:47] <Texas> for stall, we've discussed that avenus already
    01[20:48] <SilentVerse> mmhmm
    1[20:48] <SilentVerse> except
    01[20:48] <SilentVerse> honestly i haven't seen successful balance
    01[20:48] <SilentVerse> that uses the latter part of your suggestion
    [20:48] <Texas> the team i used vs windsong did i think
    [20:48] <Texas> windsongs team too if i recall correctly
    [20:49] <Texas> cant check atm tho :(
    01[20:49] <SilentVerse> :(
    [20:49] <Texas> ps being down and all
    [20:49] <Texas> i usedd something along the lines of
    [20:49] <Texas> drudd, slowking, kabu and a couple gorund immunities
    [20:49] <Texas> hich made it hard for queen to predict
    [20:49] <Texas> with drudd and king often being safe switch ins
    [20:50] <Texas> because if queens tries to predict it can easily die
    01[20:50] <SilentVerse> that team
    01[20:50] <SilentVerse> is still fairly offensive in nature tho
    01[20:50] <SilentVerse> all of your mons have offensive presence to threaten queen

    [20:50] <Texas> it is, but the slower mons that were used
    [20:50] <Texas> yes exactly
    [20:50] <Texas> and thats something that balance has to keep in min di think
    01[20:50] <SilentVerse> and that's not a good thing imo
    [20:51] <Texas> not being fodder for one of the most dangerous mons int he tier
    01[20:51] <SilentVerse> because that's not balance anymore
    01[20:51] <SilentVerse> that's basically
    [20:51] <Texas> if you dont otherwise have a counter
    01[20:51] <SilentVerse> bulky offense lol
    [20:51] <Texas> the thing is I could say the same for moltres in a different scenario
    [20:51] <Texas> if i dont carry a hard counter
    [20:51] <Texas> my slow mons have to be able to threaten tres
    01[20:51] <SilentVerse> yes, and that's why
    01[20:51] <SilentVerse> i do sorta feel that moltres may be banworthy in the future
    01[20:51] <SilentVerse> :p
    [20:51] <Texas> oh
    [20:52] <Texas> well then i think we fundamentally disagree on bans then lol
    01[20:52] <SilentVerse> but the thing about moltres
    01[20:52] <SilentVerse> is that it is also significantly less consistent
    [20:52] <Texas> yea i know, hazards and status
    1[20:52] <SilentVerse> due to sr and inaccurate moves
    [20:52] <Texas> either way i dont think queen is banworthy :p
    01[20:52] <SilentVerse> that's fair enough


    Summary and conclusion to log one (open)

    01[20:52] <SilentVerse> i do trust that you do understand why i feel it's banworthy tho :p
    [20:53] <Texas> i do, i dont agree with your position but i do understand your position of beliefs
    01[20:53] <SilentVerse> excellente
    [20:54] <Texas> think it might be worth copying this log into the suspect thread?
    01[20:54] <SilentVerse> perhaps~
    01[20:54] <SilentVerse> though to get this straight
    01[20:54] <SilentVerse> you feel that bans
    01[20:54] <SilentVerse> are for pokemon that are outright overpowering
    [20:54] <Texas> i cant tho, cause im cut off after :26
    01[20:54] <SilentVerse> if they shift the metagame significantly that is fine?
    01[20:54] <SilentVerse> :(
    [20:55] <Texas> thats a rather overarching statement to generalize i think
    01[20:55] <SilentVerse> *and centralize
    01[20:55] <SilentVerse> true
    01[20:55] <SilentVerse> x)
    [20:55] <Texas> i prefer to take things in context lol
    01[20:55] <SilentVerse> well it'd be great to have a summary of your opinion on banning :p
    [20:55] <Texas> like i suppose i could say yes cause cress did shift the meta but was also overpowering
    [20:55] <Texas> i think that if we were to lay out a series of planes
    [20:56] <Texas> like a political spectrum or w/e
    [20:56] <Texas> i would be like 90% for pokemon that are overpowered int eh metagame
    [20:56] <Texas> 10% for mons that shape the meta
    [20:56] <Texas> for example, i didnt agree with the garchomp or excadrill bans from the meta they were banned in
    [20:56] <Texas> nor torn-t
    [20:57] <Texas> blaze i was ambivalent
    01[20:57] <SilentVerse> hmmm
    01[20:57] <SilentVerse> i c
    01[20:57] <SilentVerse> well i believe
    01[20:57] <SilentVerse> that mons that put a significant strain on a certain playstyle
    [20:58] <Texas> im more towards the opinion of ban broken stuff then ban stuff for a more fun meta you could say
    01[20:58] <SilentVerse> and shift the metagame to an incredible extent around them
    01[20:58] <SilentVerse> are broken imo
    [20:58] <Texas> i.e. snow cloak/sand veil ban was dumb
    1[20:58] <SilentVerse> yeah i agree with tha tlol
    [20:59] <Texas> well see when you get into defining it like that i dont think queen satisfies the second qualifier
    [20:59] <Texas> strain on teambuilding definitely
    [20:59] <Texas> shift the meta to an incredible extent?
    [20:59] <Texas> i dont think so
    01[20:59] <SilentVerse> nah
    01[20:59] <SilentVerse> i really think it does centralize the metagame ridiculously tho

    01[20:59] <SilentVerse> i mean, like i said
    01[20:59] <SilentVerse> the rise of uxie, really sudden drop
    01[20:59] <SilentVerse> in slow, bulky mons
    [20:59] <Texas> uxie was always like #4 in usage lol
    01[21:00] <SilentVerse> and rise of general ho smeargle offense
    01[21:00] <SilentVerse> which were always good, but never so absurdly dominant
    01[21:00] <SilentVerse> yeah, uxie was
    01[21:00] <SilentVerse> but tbh i don't remember a lot of good players using it very much :s
    01[21:00] <SilentVerse> + the usage stats have always been pretty suspect x)
    [21:00] <Texas> smeargle idk if you can say ho is the only reason its used
    [21:01] <Texas> you obviosuly know first hand
    [21:01] <Texas> that it works for stall too :p
    [21:01] <Texas> i.e. august
    01[21:01] <SilentVerse> troo
    01[21:01] <SilentVerse> x)


    Log 2 on SVs post (open)

    [22:01] <Texas> you kind of said
    [22:01] <Texas> okay offense has no problems
    [22:01] <Texas> balance generally does okay
    [22:01] <Texas> and then ignored the stall side of what they can use to beat it
    [22:01] <Texas> which is somewhat of a misrepresentation
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> well i did kinda touch on it
    [22:02] <Texas> and then i took issue to this
    [22:02] <Texas> "Remember, we banned Cresselia because it centralized the metagame around it and made stall far too dominant over offense and balance. Now, Nidoqueen is doing the exact same thing,"
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> in the 5th paragraph
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> well
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> it kinda does lol
    [22:02] <Texas> because i think its fallacious to compre the two when you consider the degrees to which the meta shifted
    1[22:02] <SilentVerse> true
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> but
    [22:02] <Texas> the cress shift was ridiculous
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> consider the fact that
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> we literally just shifted
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> from a stall dominated metagame
    01[22:02] <SilentVerse> to a metagame dominated by heavy offense
    01[22:03] <SilentVerse> that is a ridiculously huge shift
    [22:03] <Texas> yes, we went from a meta dominated by offense, brought in cress which changed it to stall, removed cress and reverted to offense
    [22:03] <Texas> im not seeing the problem here
    [22:03] <Texas> because obviously cress was the problem
    01[22:03] <SilentVerse> yes, but
    01[22:03] <SilentVerse> see, the reason we went from offense to stall
    [22:03] <Texas> is cause of cress
    01[22:03] <SilentVerse> was because cresselia marginalized nidoqueen
    [22:04] <Texas> no, its cause cress marginalized everything lol


    On the philosophy of banning that lead to my previous post (open)

    [22:05] <Texas> see this is why i have a problem
    [22:05] <Texas> with suspects like this
    01[22:05] <SilentVerse> there's a very strong balance between all three archetypes
    [22:05] <Texas> people get into ideas
    [22:05] <Texas> of which meta is better
    [22:05] <Texas> and that is 100% opinion based
    01[22:05] <SilentVerse> no
    [22:05] <Texas> nidoquen is not objectively broken
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> what i'm not saying we should be back to that metagame
    [22:06] <Texas> and should not be banned
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> what i'm saying
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> is that it is indeed objectively broken
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> because of the way it shifts the metagame
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> around it
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> ...just like cresselia
    [22:06] <Texas> being a centralising figure=/=broken
    [22:06] <Texas> would you agree that dragonite was the centralising figure of BW ou?
    [22:06] <Texas> pre bw2
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> being a centralising figure
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> that also unvalidates a team archetype
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> makes it broken
    01[22:06] <SilentVerse> *invalidates
    [22:06] <Texas> i disagree
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> AND
    [22:07] <Texas> and we've discussed this
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> drastically makes another team archetype
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> dominant
    [22:07] <Texas> and i dont think it invalidates a team type
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> ofc that is an exaggeration
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> stall is "viable"
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> by the lightest extension of the word
    [22:07] <Texas> yes it is and its annoying me :(
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> im sorry ;_;
    [22:07] <Texas> making sweeping generalizations
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> i'm very hyped up atm about this
    [22:07] <Texas> is the fastest way to tick me off
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> because blarajan kept trolling me and this is a very serious matter
    1[22:07] <SilentVerse> :(
    01[22:07] <SilentVerse> ok, fine
    [22:08] <Texas> you do understand though what it looks like
    01[22:08] <SilentVerse> nidoqueen shifts the metagame so that stall is significantly less viable
    01[22:08] <SilentVerse> better?
    01[22:08] <SilentVerse> :)
    [22:08] <Texas> this position coming from a primarily stall known player
    [22:08] <Texas> yes that is an accurate and less gnereal statement
    01[22:08] <SilentVerse> yes of course
    [22:08] <Texas> so i can accept that
    01[22:08] <SilentVerse> but
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> as per the characteristics of a desirable metagame thread
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> which is outdated as fuck, but still
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> "
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other. "
    [22:09] <Texas> I cannot and will not support a ban based on teh Pokmon in question shifting the metagame
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> i cannot support having a pokemon in the tier
    [22:09] <Texas> because every single Pokemon has the capability to shift the metagame in some form
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> that blatantly
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> ignores this characteristic
    01[22:09] <SilentVerse> yes
    [22:09] <Texas> sv, there is no objective way to classift that statement
    [22:10] <Texas> or to put nidoqueen within these classifications
    01[22:10] <SilentVerse> i would argue that there is though
    01[22:10] <SilentVerse> :(
    [22:10] <Texas> this would be a lot faster and simpler
    [22:10] <Texas> if we just picked a definition of broken
    [22:10] <Texas> and stuck to it >_>
    01[22:11] <SilentVerse> except
    [22:11] <Texas> maybe i'll search a PR thread or something


    Some quotes on the perhaps erroneous shift in banning at the start of Gen V (open)

    [22:13] <Texas> "Why the fuck is everyone so damn ban happy all of a sudden? It seems to me and a few other members I've spoken to that a lot of the community is simply unwilling to accept a lot of the changes from Gen 4 to Gen 5 and to put it bluntly is just trying to make Gen 5 as similar to Gen 4 as possible because that was their comfort zone."
    [22:13] <Texas> "There is definitely a pretty big difference in terms of offensive capabilities when comparing the two metagames and for the most part it seems like a lot of the community is just lazy and wants to play a metagame where they feel comfortable being able to switch from counter to counter for everything."
    [22:13] <Texas> from a thread i just clicked on
    [22:13] <Texas> "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like."


    All relevant from the last log (open)

    12:50 SilentVerse whee, don't really wanna bring this up again, but
    12:50 SilentVerse "Subjectivity around Queen? Yes I agree which is why it shouldn't even be a suspect. You can't objectively demonstrate that it's broken so don't ban it."
    12:50 SilentVerse i disagree with this, on the basis that
    12:51 SilentVerse if people disagree about something, it SHOULD be suspected
    12:51 SilentVerse because that is the point of a suspect test
    12:51 Texas i honestly dont care if its SUSPECTED because lol omastar, but I have a huge issue if it gets banned
    12:53 Texas I honestly can't think of anyone in recent memory who's said, "man, nidoqueen really destroys this team even though i knew it was good and made sure to check it when teambuilding"
    12:53 SilentVerse i have lol
    12:53 SilentVerse not in rarelyused, but
    12:53 SilentVerse there have so many times where i have though
    12:54 SilentVerse "oh, man, tangrowth checks this and this and this and this"
    12:54 SilentVerse oh shit, it leaves me vulnerable to queen and i gotta slap uxie on my team if i use it
    12:54 SilentVerse etc etc
    12:55 Texas which is not the same thing as what i said
    12:55 SilentVerse do explain what you said then
    12:55 Texas "man, nidoqueen really destroys this team even though i knew it was good and made sure to check it when teambuilding"
    12:55 Texas i dont think its that hard to understand what i said lol
    12:56 SilentVerse o
    12:56 SilentVerse yeah ok
    12:56 SilentVerse that happened to me too~
    12:56 SilentVerse take my
    12:56 SilentVerse stall team vs windsong for example
    12:56 SilentVerse i have still lost to nidoqueen multiple times
    12:56 SilentVerse even though i ran a pokemon that is supposed to outright beat it
    12:56 Texas you;ll have to provide team examples i dont have them memorized
    12:58 SilentVerse ugh
    12:58 SilentVerse fine
    12:58 SilentVerse x
    12:58 SilentVerse x
    12:58 SilentVerse x
    12:58 Texas also i dont think its necessary that all team styles be viable anymore
    12:58 SilentVerse x
    12:58 Texas look at OU
    12:58 SilentVerse x
    12:58 Texas stall hasnt been viable in years
    12:58 SilentVerse x
    12:58 SilentVerse yes, which is why
    12:58 SilentVerse so many people quit because of bw ou
    12:58 SilentVerse 9.9
    12:59 Texas thats a very sweeping generalization
    12:59 Texas and a potentially faulty cause and effect
    13:00 Texas also explain to me how your team lost
    13:00 Texas it looks to me like windsong removed licky and cryo
    13:00 Texas and then cleaned up with queen?
    13:00 SilentVerse not just in windsong's match
    13:00 SilentVerse in my grand slam match vs blarajan for example
    13:00 Texas speaking specifically to that match though
    13:00 SilentVerse i used a similar team with wish gallade
    13:00 Texas is that more or less what happened?
    13:00 SilentVerse no, i had to risk
    13:00 SilentVerse burning it with tomb to kill it
    13:01 SilentVerse otherwise i'm pretty sure i still would've lost
    13:01 SilentVerse because his team kept pressuring mine
    13:01 SilentVerse and licki did not have time to use wish + protect
    13:01 SilentVerse without letting shit like kabutops set up for free
    13:01 Texas ah see now we see the logical flaw
    13:01 Texas you've attributed nidoqueens brokenness to factors outside of its influence
    13:02 Texas including team pressure
    13:02 SilentVerse are you
    13:02 SilentVerse kidding me
    13:02 SilentVerse so because nidoqueen doesn't automatically 6-0 a team by it's own
    13:02 SilentVerse doesn't mean it's broken
    13:02 Texas nidoqueen cannot sweep most of the tier with little or no effort on its own
    13:03 Texas would you say that is a false statement?
    13:03 SilentVerse it sweeps most of the tier
    13:03 SilentVerse with little or no effort
    13:04 SilentVerse lol
    13:04 Texas really?
    13:04 SilentVerse and it supports offensive teams
    13:04 Texas pick a pokemon that its faster than
    13:04 SilentVerse but providing enough support to pressure defensive teams
    13:04 SilentVerse tangrowth
    13:04 Texas pick the ones slower then it that check it
    13:04 Texas err sorry, thats faster than it
    13:04 Texas is what i meant to say
    13:05 Texas the majority of things faster than it, roughly 40-50% of the tier can KO it
    13:05 Texas a smaller percentage of things slower than it
    13:05 Texas say 5% will wall it
    13:05 Texas say 10% of things slower than it can take a hit and KO back but will be 2HKOd
    13:06 Texas by no logical reasoning does nidoqueen sweep through the majority of the metagame with little effort
    13:06 SilentVerse so what you're saying is
    13:06 SilentVerse "fuk stall / defensive balance"
    13:06 SilentVerse bitch please, just use offense
    13:07 Texas if the metagame with nidoqueen in it is more conducive to using offense then more people will use that
    13:07 Texas if the metagame without nidoqueen in it is more conducive to defensive balance / stall more people will use that
    13:07 Texas there is no "right" metagame
    13:08 Texas which is why you HAVE to evaluate Nidoqueen bsed on its own merits

    13:11 SilentVerse except
    13:11 SilentVerse the key difference between the metagames
    13:11 SilentVerse is the difference in viability
    13:11 SilentVerse between certain teamstyles
    13:11 SilentVerse i have no doubt that a metagame without nidoqueen
    13:11 SilentVerse will have every type of teamstyle be at least viable
    13:11 SilentVerse like
    13:11 SilentVerse nidoqueen has just singlehandedly
    13:12 SilentVerse eradicated defensive balanced / stall
    13:12 SilentVerse and even stuff like
    13:12 SilentVerse trick room
    13:12 SilentVerse which were once incredibly effective
    13:12 Texas you cannot attribute tr to queen
    13:12 SilentVerse yes
    13:12 SilentVerse you can
    13:12 Texas that was solely cofags domain
    13:12 SilentVerse even with cofag
    13:12 SilentVerse tr was dying


    And part of the final summary:

    13:20 Texas can we please discard shifting the metagame as a legitimate argument
    13:20 Texas its literally the most pointless thing
    13:20 SilentVerse fine
    13:20 SilentVerse but can we
    13:20 SilentVerse say making certain playstyles almost unviable

    13:21 Texas like what do you think would happen if houndoom drops down
    13:21 SilentVerse is a perfectly legitimate argument
    13:21 SilentVerse obviously
    13:21 SilentVerse it is to the extent it shifts the metagame that matters however
    13:21 SilentVerse but ok w/e, not gonna go on that train of that
    13:21 Texas making certain playstyles almost unviable
    13:21 SilentVerse *thought
    13:21 Texas is legitimate if you can empirically support that they are in fact unviable
  20. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    Queen didn't do all of that by herself, BW2 move tutors did most of the job of making it more offensive to fit with Game freak's trend of making the game faster paced. If game freak intends to make the game faster paced and as such more offensive, we should just simply deal with it instead of sticking to the past. Since BW2 released, offense has been the preferred style for all tiers, not just ru.
    This irrelevant because the shift to ps affected usage a lot. For example Crustle was barely ru/in nu ranage when we still used po(
    | 58 | Crustle | 404 | 3.175% | 364 | 3.389% | )
    , but as soon we shifted to ps it went up to solid ru position with no need to worry about it going down(| 41 | Crustle | 1232 | 6.302% | 923 | 6.882% | ). As for Queen being 2 when it hits ru, that has a simple explanation: PEOPLE WANT TO TRY THE NEW TOY THAT LOOKS AMAZING, not to mention that Golurk also hit #2 in nu the month it dropped, as well as Cinccino who stayed high in the usage stats until it rose to RU when we were able to use Skill Link. The reason queen has stayed high in usage is the same reason Scizor has been high in the OU usage stats since the day it got Bullet Punch: It lived up to the hype, and has nothing to do with it being broken or not unless it gets suspect ladder Genesect's usage level. As fo Uxie rising in usage, there is a simple reason, even the amazing ladder realized that it is an incredibly reliable lead to get SR pretty much always because it is insanely hard to ohko with the stuff available in ru and is pretty versatile.
    And Drapion most used set this month was the mighty Tspikes set. This surely helps in dealing with the stuff queen doesn't want to face.
    And still Tspikes was the most used set that doesn't help queen at all.
    Wrong the real reason Spiritomb rose in usage:is this: Average ladder kid reasoning: Cofag is UU now????? fine, I guess it is time to use Spiritomb in its place instead Not to mention that Absol does the job of eliminating bulky psychics 100x times better. And no the reason it rose has nothing to do with queen, the REAL reason it rose was because of plan to get Absol to ru from months ago because it should have been there since before the time Nidoqueen dropped.
    These two are also fucked hard by Moltres that now with Hurricane doesn't need to worry much about Slowking if luck is on his side while being powerful enough to 2hko Lanturn with HP grass if it dares to come in against the fiery chicken. Those are terrible examples that prove nothing about queen being broken.
    And if a mon is giving you so many problems why not just add it to deal with it easier instead of whining about it not fitting your criteria for what you want? As Kevin Garret said once: "Pokemon #6 is a Pokemon that fills the needs of whatever your team struggles against. This is the piece that changes most drastically between stall teams." And should be applied if queen is so hard to deal with instead of whining about it.
    Guess what, the counters for those mons you mentioned also lose to Moltres while they trap or weaken moltres' counters. Can we blame moltres now for not allowing those mons counters to get the usage they should be getting if the fiery chicken was not here?
    Claydol was #1 at some point. It was obviously an incredibly influential pokemon. Usage means nothing unless it gets to Genesect's levels where there is no reason to not run it. THE MIGHTY METANG was #7 in 1337 stats once, Metang was obviously a top level threat that month that nobody really prepared for and came out of fucking nowhere.
    Resists that barely matter because everything that primarly use those moves has coverage to hit Queen super effectively.
    All para moves are Twave. Good to know
    And queen still takes about 20% damage by switching into SR+1 layer of spikes.

    Again, the resist mean nothing when all mons that get a move that hits queen for .5x get a move to hit her for 2x. And switching is not painless when it takes at least 50% when coming in in pretty much any attack from something decently powerful/not resisted from a weakling and hazards in play.
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 140-166 (38.46 - 45.6%) -- 77.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes. You sure about that?
    Hail+hazard support+roost spam until out of ko range to whirlwind/brave bird say otherwise.
    Only legitimate part in this post.
    Ohkoing back while not gettin ohkoed after rocks is a shaky check. Good to know.
    Sceptile is not most relevant special attackers. It is just one. So queen coming in makes pokemon that were viable before(lickilicky and clefable) are now useless because a few mons get focus blast that not only is an unreliable as fuck move, but only like 2 good mons(Jynx and Sceptile) actually use? Good to know.
    Why is Gardevoir wasting a turn using wish when she ohkoes queen without even trying with 0 sp.a investment?
    Taking 50% damage easily in a switch means it is above everything else. Good to know.
    Or it could be that stall is extremely boring for newcomers and that they want to play more games by going offensive to finish them fast instead of having 30 mins game if they chose stall. In the time it takes to finish a game with stall, someone could have finished 5 already just by playing anything offensive.
    No. In an ideal metagame skill is rewarded and nothing else. Unless it gets to the extreme of Goat Control, that even though it is considered extremely skillful, everyone used pretty much the same thing and had to be killed because of that.
    No. The real reason Cresselia was banned is because with no perma sand and lack of really strong dark and fighting types like UU and OU do, made her pretty much a non Multiscale Lugia. Hail had little effect on cresselia because Cress herself was an outstanding support option for sun based teams and as a fool proof wall to deal with the stuff they wanted gone while setting sun by herself and giving a sun sweeper a second chance in a pinch with lunar dance. And Cresselia vs Cresselia fights fo more defensive teams were incedibly dumb and came down to outlucking the opponent. Saying that Cress is banned solely because of its impact against offense and balance is wrong when all teams had problems with her(unless you are called molk and used scraggy for all teams because scraggy 2 gud).
    TL;DR: Cresselia was dumb as fuck to deal with any kind of team, not just offense and balance.
    Getting a mon suspected for its impact on a playstyle that is becoming worse as time passes is the wrong way to do it. A mon should only be suspected when it affects all playstyles, and turning the game into a "not using the mon itself or one of its counters because it doesn't fit them the team but is needed to don't get wrecked easily by it? You lose", like it happened with Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Excadrill. And because I know you will take the line of needing the specific counters to don't lose, all you do is simply ignore them and call them only good for queen and nothing else, even though some of them were used a long time before queen dropped, and ones such as Cryogonal only need a small spread change that barely damages its ability to take hits.
    As for stall not being as viable as before because of the many changes the game had last summer:
    [​IMG] Not everything will stay the same forever. BW2 made this clear in all tiers with offense having over 40% usage in all of them.
    That still doesn't change the fact that this is another attempt to get queen banned and hopefully get the correct voter pool for that this time.
    Hollywood likes this.
  21. Meru

    Meru
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    Why can't Musharna be considered a stall counter to Nidoqueen? I guess it's because of hail, but I never heard it mentioned pre-Cress and pre-Snow Warning.
  22. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Ive seen quite a few people mention Musharna as a potential check to Nidoqueen on irc, it wouldnt be able to run the CM set without using a significant amount of special defense, but it could probably run a set of Psychic/Moonlight/Heal Bell/Filler and pull its weight on the average defensive team with its decent support movepool, just watch out for Spiritomb/Drapion trying to trap you!


    Im not going to make a full post on Nidoqueen just yet, but i dont think that she should be suspect tested at the moment, although im going to have to play some more with some different playstyles to form a full opinion.
  23. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    I am still formulating my opinion of Nidoqueen. Took a look at some of the arguments on both sides, and decided I won't make my full opinion just yet. I think it would be what for all to have an open mind whether it should be suspect or not.

    One argument about Nidoqeen is that it makes the metagame more offensive. But really even before Nidoqueen came, RU like most metas are offensive. The majority of the pokemon here are offensive and banning Nidoqueen isn't the magic way to fix the metagame. RU will be offensive with or without Nidoqueen. I don't want to go into preferences but IMO Nidoqueen make the tier more fun, and I am sure other would agree.

    Nidoqueen also has plenty of checks and counter. It also checks and counters a lot of things, but Pokemon like Moltres also beat Nidoqueen weak Pokemon. Mostly any bulky psychic type or strong hitter can OHKO queen. With entry hazard Entei is able to OHKO it easily, Special Defensive Uxie ( a bulky Pokemon?!! :o) can take hits easily from Nidoqueen and 2HKO it.

    I still think there is more to this, so will keep an open mind.
  24. HuntSaboteur

    HuntSaboteur

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    Correct. I used to be afraid of Nidoqueen, but then I realised that it was OHKO'd by a LO Flare Blitz from Entei (without SR, if I remember correctly).

    Here are the calcs:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 289-341 (89.75 - 105.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (without CB)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 331-391 (102.79 - 121.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO (without SR)

    So yes, Do Not Ban on Nidoqueen. That Uxie quote from BattleStar... well if THAT can beat Nidoqueen, it stays in the tier.
  25. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold
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    Queen has a few of counters only and exceptional temmates (sometimes the people forget this) like a Pursuit support can kill easily a big part of the best "checks" of Nidoqueen like Uxie, Cryogonal, Slowking, ¿Musharna? and the other part of "checks" are destroy by Focus Blast Queen like Clefable and Lickilicky. This just means that Nidoqueen make stall ineffective.

    Against offensive teams Nidoqueen work very well too, great type, inmunity to t-wave/volt switch and toxic which make a easy switch in the battle, resist Stealth Rock and no recoil of life orb because Sheer Force make a long-lived queen. At least, Nidoqueen can kill a mon against this types of teams in the worst case if they runs mons very fast and powerful, Nidoqueen can kills more mons against balance / bulky off teams just trapping the only "check" and playing very careful Queen to destroy the opp team.
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