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RU Stage 14 - Nidoqueen Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by SilentVerse, Jan 16, 2013.

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  1. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
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    Honestly, it seems to me as though Rarelyused has finally found itself a stable metagame. Nothing screams broken or even suspect worthy to me. I know that Nidoqueen is considered "suspectable" by some people because it threatens stall, but really, not only does stall have counters for Nidoqueen, the sad fact is that you cannot possibly contribute its demise to a single Pokemon, especially if that Pokemon can be countered (and it's not like fitting a Nidoqueen counter on a stall team is a major chore. Nidoqueen is far too easy to revenge kill, and her resists mean very little when we consider EdgeQuake, BoltBeam and the like. For every resisted move that she comes in on, there's a very high chance that you'll be able to outspeed and hit her super effectively with another move. Nidoqueen is a bulky Pokemon, but cannot take advantage of her raw stats because she's forced to invest in her offensive stats; if she chooses to forego this route, she's obviously far, far less threatening.

    As TropiOUs mentioned, offense is simply the more popular, and generally better playstyle in the current generation. I particularly liked how he delved into the psychology behind players choosing offense over stall on the ladder, simply because it's not only more convenient but also generally more fun. This is a crucial aspect SilentVerse, as just because Stall is unpopular it does not mean that it isn't effective, as seen by your achievements with stall teams. Moltres also rips stall to shreds, just as much as Nidoqueen. It's also both faster and more powerful, and the Stealth Rock weakness doesn't count for much considering how easy it is to spin in RU. And that's another factor as to why people generally don't like to use stall: the prevalence of good spinners in the tier means that people are put off by dedicating teams to stacking up entry hazards, when they're so easy to get rid of in a single turn. I think this is quite an important factor when considering stall's viability, and it has nothing to do with Nidoqueen.
  2. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    First of all I want to make it clear that I'm not on either side for Nidoqueen, neither pro-ban nor no ban. Obviously, Nidoqueen is the only thing that can be a suspect at the moment unless more people post about hail. I'm having trouble making a decision on Nidoqueen, and the current posts in this thread certainly aren't helping me come to a conclusion. Most of the arguments from both sides have been irrelevant.

    • The last and only vote on Nidoqueen should not be used as evidence for not banning Nidoqueen should it be suspected again. 2 people abstained, and at least 1 other requested that Nidoqueen should have more time in the tier so they could come to a proper decision.
    • If Nidoqueen does or not break stall, then at least say WHY it does or does not. "Stall has counters to Nidoqueen" and "Nidoqueen makes stall unviable" is not contributing anything valuable to the discussion.
    • Nidoqueen can not be compared to any other RU Pokemon, it is unique. Furthermore comparing it to Pokemon from different tiers is also irrelevant due to the fact that their metagames are completely different from RU.
    • Usage stats (well everything posted about them so far) do not really matter. They don't really reflect the metagame accurately. So aside from defensive Pokemon going down (can we list more than 3?) usage stats don't make for a strong argument.
    • BW2 move tutor changes DID NOT make the metagame more offensive. The only significant ones were birds getting Heat Wave, Stealth Rock on Druddigon and a few other mons, and Moltres getting Hurricane which was the most important. Tier shifts only included Nidoqueen, Escavalier, and Stoutland dropping, and I don't think the latter two affect defensive teams that much lol.
    • Whether you like the metagame or not doesn't really matter. The question is if we can achieve an overall more balanced metagame.
    • Try to stay away from the argument of team support making Nidoqueen broken. We're just examining the single Pokemon. Any Pokemon can be good with the proper support.
    • Examples, examples, examples. No one is really proving that it makes the metagame more offensive. No one has stated any relevant outside variables that are causing it to be more offensive either.

    The goal is to make the metagame as balanced as possible, balanced meaning a metagame that encourages skill and diversity. Consider the effect of removing Nidoqueen. Would stall and balance be able to be on par with offense? That is the deciding factor in this suspect discussion.
  3. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
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    All right, so I've finally triumphed over my laziness and am here to make a post. Put simply, I believe that Nidoqueen is an overpowered force in the BW2 RU metagame. Nidoqueen has encouraged offense to the point of domination, and I feel that offense is really the only good playstyle in this metagame because Nidoqueen just completely invalidates so many slower defensive Pokemon. Pokemon such as Steelix, Tangrowth, Ferroseed, Roselia, Amoonguss, Lanturn, Regirock, Flareon, Qwilfish, Garbodor, Poliwrath, Mandibuzz, Rotom, and Miltank all have a place on stall, but the fact that you cannot use them without giving your opponent a significant advantage without any skill on their part because of Nidoqueen is where the problem lies. Nidoqueen can switch on most of them rather easily, and if it gets a free switch-in off a double switch or something, then something on the stall team is going to die. The fact is, Nidoqueen is extremely detrimental to stall because it has very few foolproof switch-ins, which is what stall aims for. Many Pokemon that counter Nidoqueen do literally nothing else but counter Nidoqueen, and aren't very good in general, such as Clefable, Lickilicky, and Gardevoir (Clefable is a very shaky counter anyway, because it has to hit four Seismic Tosses without being critted, and just keep healing itself until it gets an opportunity to even use Seismic Toss). This leads to having a wasted teamslot a lot of the time, which is something that stall can't afford. In fact, arguably the most solid counter to Nidoqueen is Uxie, a Pokemon that has no place on stall (strictly talking about standard support Uxie) because it lacks recovery, and only acts as a pivot with Stealth Rock and Heal Bell, something stall doesn't need. Thus, Nidoqueen makes the metagame much more offensive, by not only severely limiting the options that stall and even balance have to choose from, but even goes a step further by increasing the incentive to use offense. Offense is just far and away the best playstyle right now, but it shouldn't be in a balanced metagame.

    Next, I'll talk about just how threatening Nidoqueen is to stall. It is, quite literally, the perfect stall killer. The main way that stall wins is by slowly wearing down the opposing team through status and entry hazards. Unfortunately, Nidoqueen cannot be beaten that way, because it resists Stealth Rock, is immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic (which in turn makes it immune to Toxic Spikes, and to be honest Nidoqueen is the major reason why Toxic Spikes aren't good in this metagame), and does not take Life Orb recoil damage. Nidoqueen can switch in many times over the course of a match and faces little risk, but high reward by doing so, as opposed to something like Magmortar, which is plagued by hazards and detests both Toxic and Thunder Wave. So, because it is very difficult to wear Nidoqueen down using residual damage, you must attack it. However, Nidoqueen is bulky enough to easily live STAB super effective hits from the likes of Slowking, Cryogonal, and Steelix. Another aspect that makes Nidoqueen different from all other wallbreakers is that it does not need to predict, because Sludge Wave followed by a secondary coverage move is enough to 2HKO 90% of the metagame. This makes offense even better though, because a single Pokemon on offense is so much less valuable than a single Pokemon on stall, because offense only needs one Pokemon to sweep, but stall needs to have as many Pokemon as possible that between them can stop everything on the opposing team.

    Now, I'd like everyone to reflect on the BW1 RU metagame. Many of us, both offense and stall players alike, thought that it was near-perfect. That being said, I've heard it described by multiple people that it was a bit of a stall-dominated metagame. Tell me then how, in the span of a month, you can turn a "stall-dominated metagame" into the most offensive metagame out of any BW tier? I've heard many people who don't want to see Nidoqueen banned attribute this to "BW2 changes". However, there are literally no significant introductions to the metagame that could possibly have changed it so much other than Nidoqueen (the only two that even come close are Escavalier and Hurricane Moltres, but Escavalier is easily dealt with by numerous common stall Pokemon, and Moltres is too weak to hazards and status and relies on hitting two Hurricanes in a row too often). It just has to be Nidoqueen that's caused such a sharp change in playstyle preferences. Before, stall and semistall and balance were all good and relatively diverse; now they really aren't, so people who once used those playstyles are now forced to use offense because it is so dominant that in order to be competitive, your team must be offensive to have a good chance to compete with other offensive teams.
  4. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    complete legitimacy, Nidoqueen is vulnerable to Spikes, which you can access through quite a variety of Pokemon. If Nidoqueen is really problematic why not run boltbeam + Wish + Protect Clefable with cleric Uxie / Musharna? If Ice Beam would allow Clefable to check the top-tier threat in Nidoqueen easier, you shouldn't stubbornly stick to the old and start making much needed adjustment to your teams. The latter Psychic-types with defensive investment makes for a very hardy glue mon. A stall team can certainly fit one, and will most certainly appreciate their cleric, sr, and pivot capabilities. Specially-defensive Slowking can switch into Sludge Wave and survive a TBolt while restoring health upon switch with regenerator. Any of these mons paired with specially-defensive Amoonguss can also do the trick, too.

    Nidoqueen wasn't the only thing that dropped down to make RU offensive. Iirc, Escavalier also dropped with Nidoqueen, which certainly boosted the offense of RU significantly, and made running certain specially-defensive mons and even Tangrowth a liability. Hell, Escavalier alone singlehandedly ruins the now archaic TanKing combo as well as many other defensive mons listed by you.

    Also don't forget Moltres's Hurricane! With STAB Hurricane, there are even fewer counters to Moltres. In fact are there really any hard counters to this thing? Unless you take similar measures to cover for Nidoqueen (ie going 100% specially-defensive on Slowking). Moltres would bulldoze through stall teams probably more effortlessly than Nidoqueen, because 1) it does not need to really "predict," just mash the Hurricane button until Fire Blast resistance are eliminated and 2) have Roost combined with its decent bulk to stick around. Admittedly it's SR-weak, so it's probably on par with Nidoqueen in terms of deadliness.

    And now there's Durant. With BW2 tutor move granting it Superpower, it can break past old counters. Even counters like Qwilfish and Poliwrath would be hard-pressed if more Durant start packing Thunder Fang over one of its STAB.

    I also think that people are just also starting to really appreciate offensive behemoths that have been around but underused, such as Druddigon, Sceptile, and Kabutops. All of these mons lend towards encouraging the offense of RU and increasing the challenges that stall must overcome, and like I have mentioned earlier, banning Nidoqueen would probably be the first of many bans that must take place for stall to truly be dominant again.
  5. DittoCrow

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    Did you actually read my or c_l's post?

    First off, you need 2 layers of Spikes to really hurt Nidoqueen, there is not a variety of Spikes users nor is it easy to fit any on a team except for Qwilfish. In fact, Nidoqueen beats Roselia, Cacturne, Accelgor, Crustle, Ferroseed, Garbodor, and can destroy Qwilfish, putting the Spikes user's team at an immediate disadvantage. Also, c_l explicitly stated why Uxie was not good on stall, let alone Musharna -.-. Also here's a calc:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 152-179 (38.67 - 45.54%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 203-239 (51.65 - 60.81%)

    Seems like an easy 2HKO to me with SR on the field, and a decent chance to KO without SR. Unless you're running 252/252+ Slowking (which loses to Entei), Slowking will fall to Sludge Wave + Thunderbolt.

    Also one of the bullets in my post said that BW2 move changes / tier shifts (other than Nidoqueen, obviously) did not have a strong impact on the metagame. How does a slow Pokemon such as Escavalier make the metagame more offensive, especially when 2 of the stall staples, Steelix and Poliwrath, hard counter it?

    I also said you cannot compare Nidoqueen to any other Pokemon. It has a significant less number of flaws than all of the Pokemon you mentioned, most importantly, Moltres and Durant. Moltres is 4x weak to SR and has shaky accuracy. Durant has terrible special bulk, poor accuracy due to Hustle, low Base Power STAB moves, and gets worn down by residual damage such as Life Orb and Stealth Rock; otherwise, Durant is also checked by a multitude of Pokemon in the tier which I am not going to reiterate because that was discussed in the Durant Suspect Discussion.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I did read your post and c_l's post. Accelgor can OHKO Nidoqueen with Final Gambit if you really want to (or set up 2 layers of Spikes before it goes down). Crustle can set up shell smash and force out Nidoqueen with +2 EQ. Garbodor is faster than Nidoqueen so it can set up 2 layers of Spikes or Explode on it. Same deal with Qwilfish. It's not like these spikers are meant to combat Nidoqueen anyways, but that option is there if you can't handle Nidoqueen well

    I'm saying that Uxie / Musharna IS good in stall for the reasons I provided - don't simply dismiss it "just b/c it doesn't have a healing move." Musharna has Moonlight, in fact. If you're that desperate you can run Rest with cleric support.

    Also notice how I specifically stated Specially-defensive Slowking, meaning max HP / max SpD Slowking. Why are you using a Slowking variant that's less than ideal for stall in the current metagame to deal with present RU threats?

    My intention wasn't really to compare Nidoqueen to other offensive behemoths, but rather to state this: more than Nidoqueen happened to make RU offensive, as contrary to what some of you have been stating.
  7. DittoCrow

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    Final Gambit Accelgor is a complete waste of its potential, and if it has to run that it just shows how dominant Nidoqueen is. Crustle is going to need White Herb and has to forego Stone Edge or X-Scissor, plus being a bad Pokemon in this metagame in general due to getting few chances to set up. Garbodor won't KO Nidoqueen without significant Attack investment, and you wouldn't want to explode if it's on a stall team... (SV made a decent stall team incorporating Garbodor, which ultimately failed because Garbodor allowed Nidoqueen to put him at a massive disadvantage).

    How many Rest mons can stall have? Uxie is simply not good on stall especially if its running Rest. What does it do besides check Nidoqueen? Specially defensive Slowking is something you don't want to run on stall because it is more helpful for it to win against physical threats than just 2 mons.

    Going through these great length to, in my opinion, limit these Pokemon's potential does not make me feel so confident about dealing with Nidoqueen. None of these arguments are persuading me to think that I want to keep Nidoqueen. I didn't really read any solid info on what else caused the metagame to be more offensive.
  8. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Garbodor doesn't need to OHKO Nidoqueen with Explosion, since Nidoqueen wont be regaining health back anyways. Accelgor doesn't need to Final Gambit, it can lay 2 hazards and you bring in your nidoqueen check after it did its job.

    I'd much rather have a solid Slowking check - a mixed wall Slowking is more useful in bulky offense team that cannot afford many team slots for physical walls. A stall team can afford to stack up on physical walls like Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Tangrowth. Therefore, I would rather improve my defense against Nidoqueen (and other special threats), a Pokemon that is claimed by you to be the most dangerous mon to face for stall (but not for other teams)?
  9. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    About Final Gambit on Accelgor, how does Accelgor using it have anything to do with Nidoqueen? It was used before Nidoqueen dropped and serves a different purpose than just for taking down Queen because Accelgor can't hit it very hard. Final Gambit is basically an emergency button to KO or bring a Pokemon down if getting off Spikes isn't too important. When Accelgor does decide to get up some Spikes, Final Gambit serves as a way to spinblock. Accelgor gets up 2 layers of Spikes and down to 1 HP with its Focus Sash. Cryogonal comes in thinking it can KO with Rapid Spin and KO Accelgor, but instead Final Gambit happens and now there is no target for Rapid Spin to take effect. Now the Spikes stay on the field and you have a free switch into whatever you want to check Cryogonal. This keeps up the momentum on an offensive team and puts the pressure on the opponent.
  10. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    What c_l is saying is that Nidoqueen causes stall to use otherwise mediocre or outright poor pokemon / strategies to beat it. In all honesty, how many of you would use Clefable / Gardevoir / Musharna had it not been for Nidoqueen? These Pokemon are just mediocre on stall in a metagame where good typing is needed to check most threats, and these Pokemon waste a valuable teamslot on stall teams that could be better used on walls that cover more significant portions of the metagame. Furthermore, Nidoqueen's pure offensive might discourages slow, bulky Pokemon such as the one's c_l listed: Steelix, Tangrowth, Ferroseed, Roselia, Amoonguss, Lanturn, Regirock, Flareon, Qwilfish, Garbodor, Poliwrath, Mandibuzz, Rotom, and Miltank, as well as slower Pokemon in general like Crawdaunt, Bouffalant, and Aggron. These Pokemon are good, but are ultimately liabilities against Nidoqueen because they do not outspeed it. Nidoqueen strongly discourages the use of these (previously) good Pokemon, causing less diversity among the tier. Accelgor, Galvantula, Scyther, Manectric, Magneton, Hitmonlee, and Klinklang and Primeape to an extent have all become worse due to Nidoqueen. There is barely a reason to use any of those Pokemon with Nidoqueen in the tier. This also excludes the fact that Trick Room teams, which at a time, were incredibly viable, have become nigh unusable, simply because of the ease at which Nidoqueen destroys slower teams. Out of Trick Room, none of the Pokemon really have a chance against Nidoqueen, as it outspeeds and 2hkoes or outright ohkoes almost everything commonly used on Trick Room, meaning that Nidoqueen will usually nab at least a kill, if not more, against these types of teams. Furthermore, here are some quotes from NU Tiering Leader Zebraiken about the characteristics of a broken Pokemon:


    01[17:52] <svafk> what would you feel
    01[17:52] <svafk> are the characteristics of a broken pokemon
    [17:52] <zeb> it depends on the state of the metagame, i think
    [17:52] <zeb> if a pokemon
    [17:52] <zeb> is so utterly dominant
    [17:53] <zeb> that it justifies the use of otherwise mediocre or outright poor pokemon / strategies to beat it
    [17:53] <zeb> i guess it's really more about how much said pokemon limits people

    01[17:54] <svafk> how would you define
    01[17:54] <svafk> dominant
    [17:55] <zeb> i can't solidly define that either but it's more about the feeling of "you have to use it to win" or "you have a significant disadvantage if you do not use this pokemon"
    [17:56] <zeb> it's all very
    [17:56] <zeb> closely related, really


    In my opinion, these characteristics fit Nidoqueen to a tee. By forcing stall teams to use mediocre Pokemon and limiting the use of once powerful revenge killers who could pose problems to offense, Nidoqueen is such a good Pokemon that there is very little reason not to use it on offensive teams, while simultaneously putting the teams without Nidoqueen at a significant disadvantage due to just how easy it is to nab a kill with it.
  11. DittoCrow

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    Going to step in again because I don't want to see any more nonsense. Basically the only posts the no ban side should be considering at the moment are complete legitimacy and SilentVerse's post (from page 2). Here are their main arguments in a nutshell (correct me if I'm wrong, guys):

    • Nidoqueen makes a bunch of (14?) defensive Pokemon liabilities to use, and while running them on stall, gives your opponent an immediate advantage if it gets in safely. This is because there are barely any Pokemon that can switch into Nidoqueen. This causes stall to not be viable.
    • Stall, and defensive teams for that matter, must use Pokemon or strategies that are bad outside of dealing with Nidoqueen. What they're saying is that this is something that makes a Pokemon broken.
    • Banning Nidoqueen would make defensive, balanced, and offensive teams viable, since the BW2 changes and tier shifts were not significant to cause a huge change in the metagame, except for Nidoqueen of course.
    • Nidoqueen limits the diversity in the tier (ie Trick Room teams, Manectric/Accelgor, etc.) Also makes Torkoal, Golbat, Skuntank, and Butterfree unusable. i kid i kid

    Just trying to help everyone come to a conclusion in a more organized debate x). Also SV gave me permission to post this. If anyone could oppose these points that'd be really helpful!
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    It's rather ironic when you call Gardevoir / Musharna mediocre when you list questionable mons like Flareon in your own list. Bouffalant and Aggron are still viable today, and Crawdaunt has more than Nidoqueen to worry about (insert any Pokemon faster than it that can hit remotely hard, Poliwrath).

    Offensive LO Accelgor 2HKOs Nidoqueen with HP Water and Suicide leads lay down Spikes no problem. Timid Magneton is actually faster than Nidoqueen and 2HKOs with HP Ground (this is how people should use Magneton!). Same story for LO Manectric, and Galvatula to a lesser extent. Hitmonlee has bigger problems than Nidoqueen (is it even a problem with EQ?), and so does Klinklang and Primeape. You can't put the blame on all of these mons relative ineffectiveness to Nidoqueen. Sure choiced Electric users are much harder to pull off with Nidoqueen, but that's not really relevant cuz Ground-type, Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, Lightningrod does that, too.

    Bottom line: the list of Pokemon doesn't support your argument (aka Nidoqueen has rendered many Pokemon unviable in RU) mainly b/c 1) it's not true and 2) there are other more important limiting factors than Nidoqueen.

    And lol, TR is perfectly fine. Molk posted a combo of TR Slowking + Escavalier earlier and many good players have had success with TR recently, too. Once TR is up, Nidoqueen is outpaced by all of these slower mons.

    Zeb provided a nice definition of brokenness, and it's the main reason why most of us believe it's RU and not BL2. An RU team without Nidoqueen is not at an immediate disadvantage against a Nidoqueen team. Due to the offensive nature of today's meta (which is not solely Nidoqueen's fault as I have explained earlier), Nidoqueen does not achieve much for me. I find Entei, Kabutops, Sceptile, Slowking, Druddigon, Escavalier etc to be my MVP moreso than Nidoqueen, which is more of a glue / offensive fodder mon. I tend to have 5+ different ways of disposing Nidoqueen no problem.

    PS: plz stop the ad hominem attack, Windsong. Idk what you have against me, but you're acting silly / childish. Certainly not a behavior of a CC imho.
  13. cocoon

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    Like most things that are deemed "broken", my main issue with Nidoqueen is the strain it puts on team building, particularly balanced/stall teams. I have two Nidoqueen checks on my balanced team, and it's been doing well for that reason, precisely. Uxie and Slowking are my main checks. However, after I noticed that Slowking was getting 2HKO'd, I went from the standard 244 / 144 / 116 to the more obscure 248 / 252 Calm spread just so that it can reliably come in on Nidoqueen. Its been doing well against Nidoqueen, but I've found physical threats like Entei and Spiritomb to be a lot more threatening, do to the lack of defensive investment Slowking would normally have. This makes dealing with offensive threats much more difficult because of the measures I have to take to beat Nidoqueen and inevitably encumbrances less offensives orientated teams. If Nidoqueen's checks and counters weren't so deviant from regular balanced teams, and can accomplish more than beating Nidoqueen, then I'd have no problem with it. But as it stands, there are not many good defensive options available that beat Nidoqueen and can pull their weight outside of checking the aforementioned threat.

    While offensive teams don't share the same dilemma, they are still threatened by Nidoqueen on a large scale. On top of being incredibly powerful, and having no issues with most entry hazards, Nidoqueen is incredibly durable and is difficult to just outright KO. Here are a list of offensive RU pokemon that can come in on Nidoqueen and not be OHKO'd by any of its moves: Gallade, Mesprit, and Hariyama.

    Only a handful of pokemon on these types of teams can come in on Nidoqueen and not be destroyed by it, meaning more often than not, if Nidoqueen gets a safe switch in something WILL die. Not only does this make Nidoqueen incredibly threatening, but it also makes it far too easy to use. With Nidoqueen, it's literally click a button, and watch something die, there's hardly any skill involved when using it. Sure offensive teams can revenge kill it, but outside of SE stab attacks, not many things can 1HKO. Even if you do attempt to revenge kill it, there's nothing stopping Nidoqueen from switching out and coming back in to get another kill. When played right, it takes 2-3 pokemon per match.

    This is why I think Nidoqueen is broken. Not only does it shift the metagame to revolve around it by using absurd sets / pokemon to counter it, but requires almost no skill to use and there's just no penalty for having it on your team. Literally every team benefits with Nidoqueen's introduction.
  14. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    If you're using Slowking to counter Nidoqueen and other specially offensive threats why are you not simultaneously adjusting your team to handle Entei to make up for Slowking's former role. Slowking can no longer handle every attacker in the tier with the mixed set. If it chooses to specialize one must account for that in teambuilding.

    I would be more impressed if you could give me a list of Pokemon that outspeed Nidoqueen that Nidoqueen could safely come in on. For an offensive team if Nidoqueen gets in for free, should they not be able to outright OHKO Queen it is often not a large loss to sacrifice the current Pokemon to get 80% on Queen, rendering it useless for the rest of the battle.

    "For an offensive team if Nidoqueen gets in for free, should they not be able to outright OHKO Queen it is often not a large loss to sacrifice the current Pokemon to get 80% on Queen, rendering it useless for the rest of the battle."

    I see that comment frequently, that Nidoqueen gets a lot of kills if played right. Well against an offensive team its free switches pretty much only come after KOs. So what good is Nidoqueen getting three KOs if it cost you 5 Pokemon to get to that point (as not everything that gets a KO will be threatened by Queen, e.g. gallade)?
  15. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    posting on behalf of molk, he wrote most of it

    Out of the Pokemon you listed, all of them are affected by Nidoqueen's presence. However, this is not to say that Nidoqueen's abiltiy to OHKO hinders them from doing their roles, or indeed that Nidoqueen can easily switch in. In many cases, Nidoqueen itself must be wary of switching in lest it suddenly be in an unenviable position.

    (Ferroseed and Mandibuzz are not commented on because the former is threatened by Fire moves, Queen or not, and the latter sucks anyway)


    I've seen Steelix being used effectively in this metagame even with Nidoqueen's existance. The Nidoqueen player has to be wary when switching directly into Steelix because a 0 Attack Earthquake does major damage to her as she switches in, which has been quite the annoyance for me on occasion when i really have to take out a Steelix.

    Ive also seen Tangrowth used effectively in this metagame as well, Sleep Powder is usually enough to keep Nidoqueen at bay at least temporarily, and even after sleep clause is in effect , Nidoqueen has to be wary of moves like Earthquake, Stun Spore, or hell even Leaf Storm (I remember Double01 doing pretty damn well with a Life Orb Tangrowth during Cresselia metagame and on). Even Leech Seed will harass Nidoqueen as the lost HP it cannot gain back, and it will heal up a special wall coming in the Nidoqueen could potentiall 2HKO otherwise.

    Roselia is still more than viable in this meta despite its recent drop to NU, it's still an effective Spiker and its one of the most solid checks to dangerous Grass-types such as Sceptile and Lilligant. Amoonguss is in the same boat, except it gives up Spikes for Spore, Regenerator, and a significant amount of physical bulk.

    I dont see how Lanturn is hindered by Nidoqueen's presence either, its still one of the best checks to dangerous Fire-types such as Entei, Magmortar, and especially Moltres, and it can support its team well with its slow Volt Switch and access to Heal Bell. Nidoqueen isnt going to enjoy switching in on Scalds, especially because of that high burn rate.....Furthermore Lanturn can still adequately pivot around Nidoqueen for a Stall or balanced team, as its typing discourages the use of Thunderbolt or Fire Blast as options, allowing a teammate such as Cryogonal or Slowking to come in with lessened risk.

    Regirock was hardly ever used before or after Nidoqueen arrived. That said it is a potential member of stall and Nidoqueen does discourage its use. Regirock can also threaten Nidoqueen with Earthquake, which will 2HKO, should it choose to use that as coverage, meaning Nidoqueen cannot necessarily switch in for free.

    Flareon was already a terrible Pokemon before the introduction of Nidoqueen, with its only real niche being countering Moltres, who can 2HKO it with Hurricane after Stealth Rock. I don't see how making a previously mediocre Pokemon a liability is a problem.

    I've actually been using Qwilfish quite a bit recently, and i cant see how you could call it a liability at all, its a great check to other common threats such as Durant, Escavalier, Entei, Smeargle, etc. It's naturally good Speed and Attack make it a good choice on many teams, and its Waterfall will also discourage Nidoqueen from switching in lest it be hit for more than half its health, not to mention that it can be EV'd to Outspeed Nidoqueen (i regularly use enough speed on my own Qwilfish to outpace opposing Smeargle so i can taunt it), further discouraging Nidoqueen from switching in. Qwilfish also sets up Spikes that hinder Nidoqueen's ability to switch in for free.

    Poliwrath may be severely threatened by Nidoqueen but is no less viable for it, being one the best options to many of the most dangerous physical attackers in the tier, including Durant, Entei and Aggron. Indeed, Nidoqueen can hardly switch in on the standard defensive set, as Scald will deal heavy damage as well as possibly burning it, whereas Circle Throw will deal chip damage in addition to the Stealth Rock damage Nidoqueen must then accrue again.

    Ive also been using regular Rotom lately, and while Nidoqueen does make his life harder, ive still been getting a lot out of using it. Its typing is still phenomenal, granting it 3 immunities taking into account levitate along with a ton of resistances for it to switch in on. Shadow Ball can 2HKO Nidoqueen if re remember the formerly popular SubSplit Rotom set, and HP Ice is viable on a Choice sets, though the Choice sets are undoubtedly worse off with a storn Electric immunity in the tier. Rotom is also your best bet if you want to stop Kabutops from spinning using its bulky set, which is a great niche in and of itself.

    Ive seen Miltank in action rather recently and i can say for a fact that its still very viable even with Nidoqueen around. Its a major annoyance to hail teams with its thick fat ability, ability to set up Stealth Rock, and reliable recovery combined with an excellent base 100 Speed stat. Miltank is also very good at running an offensive set that carves a niche for itself as one of the best checks to Grass-types such as Lilligant and Tangrowth around.

    Crawdaunt, Aggron and Bouffalant don't particularly care about Nidoqueen unless their in on her in a neutral situation, as Crawdaunt will have either Substitute or Dragon Dance to benefit it, whereas Aggron is able to have Rock Polish or its own Substitute to hide behind before Earthquaking. Nidoqueen can't switch in on either of the pair safely, except on Aggron's Head Smash where it will still take heavy damage. Bouffalant doesn't give two fucks when it fights Nidoqueen as long as its not switching in, its huge bulk ensures it can take one of Nidoqueen's attacks and hit very hard in return.



    Accelgor can 2HKO with HP Water yadda yadda, will often Spike as its goal anyway yadda yadda this has been discussed a fair amount.

    Galvantula is no longer as effective as it was with its Electric STABs neutered but is still effective in the metagame, and is capable of 2HKOing Nidoqueen with a SE HP Ice.

    Scyther was hardly ever used before or after due to Stealth Rocks, Nidoqueen had no effect on it. Further more it 2HKOs Nidoqueen with Aerial Ace, discouraging an opposing switch in.

    Manectric is no longer viable as a Choice Scarf user due to Queen, though I have heard good things about its Life Orb set.

    Magneton's goal is to trap Steels more than spam Volt Switch, and heavy damage can be dealt with Flash Cannon should Nidqueen switch in. Magneton was hardly considered a top tier mon before Queen was introduced either.

    Hitmonlee dgaf about Queen. Never OHKOd by Sludge Wave without a crit, deals heavy damage with Earthquake, this matchup is even, if not slightly in lee's favour.

    Klinklang was always a Pokemon that required team support to be effective, and loved Spikes, and Nidoqueen is no different. Nidoqueen hardly affects the way Klinklang plays at all, and its usage was lacking both before and after Queen.

    Primeape was likewise never considered particularly good, and its role as a fast U-Turn user has not changed with Nidoqueen's introduction. Nidoqueen only discourages Primeape insofar as its ability to take its STAB attack with relative comfort.



    In short, while all of these mons are affected by Nidoqueen, perhaps discouraged in use, this does not make these Pokemon unviable as they are all still easily capable of performing their role, and in many cases threatening Nidoqueen in their own right. In terms of the offensive Pokemon listed, half of them barely have a reason to be used regardless of Queen, while the other half suffer comparitively little effect from Queen's presence. In terms of the defensive Pokemon listed, the majority of them discourage Nidoqueen from switching in through their own moves or STAB, and often require a specific move to be used in order to KO them which allows for a more specially defensive teammate to come in, without Queen having prevented the defensive threat from doing its job in the first place.



    EDIT: Molk on TR


    This is not true in the slightest, to be honest. I had been using a Trick Room team that i made in BW1 for quite a long time, i used it both on the ladder and as one of the trainers in the RUgged Mountain challenge, and i never really had a problem with Nidoqueen. Two of the best Trick Room setters in the tier, Uxie and Mesprit are already recognized as some of the best checks to Nidoqueen in the whole tier, which makes it much harder for Nidoqueen to trouble the Trick Room team. Also, most of the Pokemon on my Trick Room team were more than bulky enough to take a hit from Nidoqueen and were all capable of doing serious damage in return and/or setting up Trick Room. To be honest, the only reason i stopped using that Trick Room team in the first place is because Cofagrigus moved up to UU, and it was a crucial part of my Trick Room team, or really any Trick Room team for that matter.
  16. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    <Red_Panda> you can't argue that it's not extremely centralizing
    <Red_Panda> i don't think centralizing the meta
    <Red_Panda> is a relavant reason to ban something
    <Red_Panda> or at least an important reason
    <Molk> by the standards that most pokemon centralize the metagame
    <Molk> we should ban every top threat in a tier because you need to carry something to check it to win a match
    <Red_Panda> p much
    <Red_Panda> it's just how far you have to go
    <Red_Panda> to check it
    <Red_Panda> i think you have to go way too far to check queen
    <Red_Panda> because it's so powerful, so bulky with no investment, you can't check it with typing, it doesn't take residual damage
    <Red_Panda> and unless you have a ton of SpD investment you can't be slower than it
    <Red_Panda> nidoqueen wins pretty much every typing-neutral matchup in the tier

    there are a few exceptions but like 80-90% of neutral typing matchups are won by nidoqueen, and you can't check it with resists (like every other threat) because of its amazing coverage
  17. Hikari

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    You can check it with resists, unless you want to assume the Nidoqueen user has flawless prediction skills.
  18. Nails

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    Like i said, nidoqueen wins 80-90% of neutral typing matchups in the tier, so the shortlist of pokemon who can check it with resists (stuff like haunter i assume? please elaborate) have to be extremely careful switching in because the queen user can spam the coverage moves that kill those pokes. And if people used typing to switch into queen it seems reasonable to expect people would've started using substitute more, as I've had no issues personally running 3 attacks Nidoqueen.
  19. speed ghilliesniper

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    I'v had extensive experience with Niqoqueen but not so much with using stall against is, which is why I'v stayed quite. However, I have used Trick Room teams, a lot, both before and after Cofagrigus and I have to say Nidoqueen is not even close to the biggest threat to them or the #1 reason for their recent downfall in usability. The top 3 setters IMO, OTR Slowking, Uxie, and FEARgle, can all go toe to toe with Nidoqueen. Slowking can live a shot, set up tr, then KO back with Psychic or Surf. Uxie is already considered the best Nidoqueen counter around so I shouldn't have to explain that one as much, but just in case hypothetically it takes a shot, hits back with Psychic, then sets up Trick Room then going for the KO Nidoqueen with psychic, while having the benefit of having a turn to cripple the next switch in with Memento before going to something to use up the last 2 turns. FEARgle is a lead, so if it's facing Nidoqueen it's sash will be intact so it can Spore on the rocks if it's a support Queen or live a shot with the sash and Spore, then set up tr and go for the Endeavor to cripple the Queen or whatever switches in. Of course priority ruins this but at the least the Queen will be asleep and tr will be set up for an early game mini sweep.

    Plus, from the top 3 abusers in RU, Escavalier, Druddigon, and Bouffalant, 2 out of 3 are bulky enough to live one shot then 1HKO in return, with the exception being Escavlier not 1HKOng with Iron Head and being 1HKO'd by Flamethrower. Still, having this team in theory and having Niqoqueen completely beat only one member one on one isn't ruining it at all. In reality Nidoqueen doesn't violate Trick Room %100 and made it unviable, the thing that made Trick Room less viable / popular is it's number one user and abuser, OTR Cofagrigus, moving up to UU. In all honesty, bulky things with Substitute played smartly are more difficult, with sub bu Gallade being one of the biggest threats IMO to Trick Room teams, with it being able to grab a sub on all 3 of the hypothetical setters and being able to stall out or beat the 3 example abusers. Plus Gyro ball Steelix is a huge pain to deal with if Slowking goes down and Druddigon doesn't have Flamethrower because it out slows and walls the abusers.

    So, tl;dr Nidoqueen isn't what made Trick Room not as viable, Cofagrigus leaving is the #1 thing contribution to the downfall of Trick Room. It's a threat for sure, but with the best setters setting up TR in spite of it and/or crippling or killing it and most of the abusers tanking shots and powering through it, not the #1 threat to this play style I think.
  20. Hikari

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    Sceptile can switch into Earth Power and Thunderbolt. OHKOes Nidoqueen with LO leaf Storm, Acrobat Sceptile can hit it hard with Earthquake but won't OHKO 100% Nidoqueen.

    Entei can switch into Ice Beam and Fire Blast easily, survives Thunderbolt 100% of the times and it can survive Sludge Wave after SR damage. OHKOes with Flare Blitz

    Kabutops can switch into Fire Blast, Ice Beam and Sludge Wave. OHKOes Nido with Waterfall

    Aerodactly can switch into Sludge Wave, Fire Blast and Earth Power. OHKOes Nidoqueen with LO Earthquake and hits it really hard without a LO

    Feraligatr can switch into Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Earth Power and Sludge Wave (small chances to get OHKOed after SR). OHKOes Nidoqueen with Waterfall

    Those are 5 Pokemon from the top 15, there are a lot more but not going to name them all because I assume you can check the stats by yourself. l know those are soft checks, but they can still beat the Nidoqueen if they predict properly. So yes you can play around Nidoqueen, even if you don't carry one of its multiples hard checks and counters that don't rely on prediction to beat Nido.

    Before you reply with the predictable "Nidoqueen can switch out of unfavorable matchups", how many free switch ins are you expecting to get with Nidoqueen in a match? Yeah it resists SR, but even shit like Flareon 2HKOes it with Lava Plume so wearing it down is not that hard.
  21. BossSauce

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    If you predict wrong, one of your checks to Nidoqueen is gone. If you predict right, at worst Nidoqueen will be forced out. That's very disproportional risk/reward in favor of the Nidoqueen user.

    Out of all the mons you mentioned, Nidoqueen is also the easiest to switch in and keep alive; it resists SR, doesn't suffer LO recoil, and it doesn't have heavy recoil moves. Its bulk isn't even bad and allows it to take most neutral hits (which is what Nails was referring to). Every check you mentioned suffers at least one of these problems. Yes wearing Nidoqueen down isn't inconceivable but every one of its offensive checks is noticeably easier to wear down (some not even close).


    @Texas and Molk,

    Regarding the statement, "For an offensive team if Nidoqueen gets in for free, should they not be able to outright OHKO Queen it is often not a large loss to sacrifice the current Pokemon to get 80% on Queen, rendering it useless for the rest of the battle.", this leads back to why Nidoqueen jeopardizes the viability of stall and skews the metagame to a more offensive one. While its free switch-ins against offensive teams are rather limited, a large portion of which do come after KOs, it’s a different story against stall. Nidoqueen does not care about SR, toxic, t-wave, or burn as much as any other top offensive threat does and its bulk is at the very least above average in comparison. In addition, it absorbs leech seed better as well considering it doesn’t have to worry about LO recoil and thus is a lot tougher to wear down. Yes most stall pokes have some way to discourage Nidoqueen from switching in (all walls should innately carry some way to pressure switch-ins to avoid being setup fodder), but it is relatively easier to switch Nidoqueen in compared to other prominent offensive threats such as but not limited to: Sceptile, Entei, Gallade, Kabutops, Aerodactyl, Feraligatr, Hitmonlee, Moltres, Magmortar, Absol, etc. These pokes are either much less bulky than Nidoqueen, suffer from hazards/status/residual damage (because of LO and recoil) much more than Nidoqueen does, or both. This also causes queen to be more user-friendly, if skill required to use a poke is a legitimate argument against it. Furthermore against stall, Nidoqueen is able to outspeed more pokes which is problematic as everybody knows it 2HKO’s most walls seen on a typical stall team.

    A big reason I feel that some of you don’t think Nidoqueen is suspect worthy is because you’ve never had extreme troubles with it due to running some form of offense. But that is the point. You’re not having trouble with Nidoqueen because you’re running the playstyle that Nidoqueen encourages (or better put, doesn’t discourage). You're not playing stall, nobody is. The rest can be summed up with complete legitimacy’s post.
  22. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    I kind of feel like the problem isn't that Stall is made unviable because of Nidoqueen...it's that either autopilot bullshit stall that just relies on "hmm he brought in A so I'll go to B" is unviable, or that the Stall you all want to run just isn't good anymore. I don't really understand the dismissal of good Pokemon that's going on regarding Stall? Why exactly is UxieFable unviable? Your spinner is going to be Cryogonal anyways. And bam, look at that, you now have three Pokemon that ALL check Nidoqueen on your Stall team! And not just Nidoqueen...you have Stealth Rock, Heal Bell (if you put it on Uxie), Wish, and Rapid Spin support, which are all very valuable assets that cannot be undermined. Best of all no Nidoqueen problems.

    I tried building a stall team myself, and I handled Nidoqueen incredibly quickly. The problems came from Druddigon, CB Aggron, TauntWoW Gallade...other really difficult to handle stall breakers. After I recognized that in this tier, Uxie + Wish Support might be the best way to handle Nidoqueen...I stopped having Nidoqueen problems? I don't even like playing Stall, and that took about eight seconds to figure out. As I've brought up before, I believe the fear is adaptation: an unwillingness to use Pokemon arbitrarily seemed lackluster on Stall (Uxie's been amazing!! with Wish support!) or apparently useless? I thought it was common sense to carry a more dedicated check or counter to the biggest threats in the tier, or was it that you used Regirock on your last team because it's actually SUCH a good Pokemon?

    I'm not going to actually engage in this whining. That's all I feel this is honestly, and I apologize if I sound rude, but the blunt post is necessary as we're all pussyfooting around everything. Assuming I accept that Nidoqueen is the cause of the offensive metagame (and while it is an important Speed tier, you have to also recognize that Druddigon, Gallade, Lilligant, Drapion, Aerodactyl, Moltres, Omastar, Aggron, Absol, Kabutops, and every other offensive Pokemon is doing that too...), I have to ask: so what? The fact that a tier is more offensive does not mean it's bad when balanced teams flourish and Stall teams are usable with actual adaptation? And please don't give me anymore of this dismissive bullshit, like "No, even though RU possesses incredible offensive Pokemon for the tier, Nidoqueen is the only one that somehow makes a difference in restricting stall's viability" or "Because I want to make a team of 6 slow Pokemon that are all weak to Nidoqueen, Nidoqueen must be broken, even though I'm not changing my team up to somehow account for it" or even "no when my opponent is using Nidoqueen he will always predict everything correctly and will 2HKO every single Pokemon on my team." I respect your opinions in that you all believe Stall is more restricted. I do not agree with wanting to ban Nidoqueen for reasons not attributed entirely to it or due to lazy teambuilding, nor can I ever accept the Pokemon's departure from the tier because we did not want to adapt to account for it or were too attached to our comfortable autopilot teams to even consider thinking.

    This post might be rude, and I'll admit it. You can disagree with me all you want. I just am entirely sick of all of the whining that a Nidoqueen tier causes, especially considering all Nidoqueen is is a very strong Pokemon with excellent coverage, but is also slow, with a variety of weaknesses, is inherently checked by offensive teams, is frequently a liability against Hail, has counters and a fuckton of checks, and is entirely manageable by a Stall team that innovates even a little bit. Sorry you can't use 6 Pokemon slower than Nidoqueen that all get 1-2HKOed. And so sorry that you apparently want a Pokemon that can switch in to every other Pokemon under any feasible situation, even though there exists Pokemon that can consistently switch in if you, heaven's forbid, think during your game and make sure they're not put in situations that compromise their ability to check Nidoqueen? Clearly broken imo.

    Also, if you want a nicer post, please look here. I don't want to tl;dr when everything I wrote then still applies now basically, except for some minor things...don't just hunt and peck for details! And why did you switch over to the dark side C_L. What happened to the you that I knew and loved? =(
  23. complete legitimacy

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    Sorry blara, I've seen the light n_n.

    You do have to realize though, that you've wasted not just one Pokemon, but two that only counter Nidoqueen. Stall simply cannot afford that. The reason that Nidoqueen is being singled out is because the few things that are a foolproof counter to it are useful for very few other threats.

    Continuing with your sample team, you still need checks to major threats like Sceptile, Escavalier, Entei, Moltres, Gallade, Druddigon, Aggron, and Kabutops, Spikes, and a spinblocker. You simply cannot fill those roles with only three teamslots. Perhaps you were encountering the same problems when you tried to build a stall team that we have been all along. In fact, it's often more advantageous to use a team that can't deal with Nidoqueen but can deal with nearly every other threat in the metagame because preparing for Nidoqueen leaves you weak to like four or five other things, as opposed to just one. Also, in the list of Pokemon that I provided in my last post who are significantly worse because of Nidoqueen's presence, I neglected to mention that you need three or more of those to have a competent stall team that counters as many threats as possible. Also included in that list is every viable defensive Spiker, and Spikes are the essence of stall. In fact, Qwilfish is really the only one that Nidoqueen can't switch in on with absolutely no risk, and even then doesn't KO it.

    Also, I think we need to shift our focus from the fact that Nidoqueen 2HKOes nearly everything to how Nidoqueen 2HKOes nearly everything, which is by using Sludge Wave followed by a specific coverage move. Unless your name is Slowking, Tangrowth, or Amoonguss, switching out to something else doesn't magically bring you out of KO range the next time. And you know there will be a next time, because as I said in my previous post, there is so little risk for Nidoqueen to switch in against stall and so much reward for doing so. You're also proving our point when you say that offense and hail check Nidoqueen effortlessly, but that stall is restricted and has to use less-than-optimal Pokemon or sets.

    The line that strikes me the most about your post is that you "can't use 6 Pokemon slower than Nidoqueen that all get 1-2HKOed". Bar Cryogonal, which can't switch into Nidoqueen at all, that sounds like a fair description of stall to me.
  24. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    I don't really understand the part where Uxie and Clefable don't do anything but check Nidoqueen.

    And sorry bud but your last post basically just reiterated what I've been saying: a painful inability to adapt.
  25. DittoCrow

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    @cocoon: Offensive teams have a lot of trouble dealing with Nidoqueen in theory, but in practice, they usually have either a pivot such as Uxie or a Pokemon that it can sacrifice to deal with Nidoqueen. Offense puts more pressure on Nidoqueen than Nidoqueen puts on it, so that really shouldn't be used as an argument imo (also see br's post).

    @Molk: I think the point of that list of Pokemon was to show how many Pokemon Nidoqueen can come in on and either KO or severely damage a switch-in, as there aren't very many Pokemon that can switch into Nidoqueen. Furthermore, it would usually be disadvantageous to use most of them on a balanced team because Nidoqueen will get a huge advantage due to balance teams having even less bulky Pokemon than stall. Of course Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Steelix are still effective, but when used on stall, Nidoqueen can usually get a KO due to the limited amount of Pokemon that can switch into it. That is what is making Nidoqueen a problem for stall and defensive teams.

    Also Flareon and Ferroseed were not terrible Pokemon. In BW1 Flareon was a solid team supporter. Here's a good rmt supporting that. I remember myself and other people playing that team countless times on the ladder and losing quite a bit (he also peaked #4). There's also this archived team with Ferroseed.

    While what you said about the Pokemon in SilentVerse's post is true for the most part, I have indeed seen Scyther and Primeape do well in RU. I think the point of those mons was to show how Nidoqueen limits the diversity of the tier or causes Pokemon (such as Accelgor) to change their movepools for the worse in order to deal with Nidoqueen. Not saying that this makes queen broken, just pointing out what the meaning of that part of SV's post was.

    @blarajan: Is running 2 Pokemon don't check many Pokemon besides Nidoqueen worth it on stall? Clefable can't beat many of the other special threats in the tier, and Uxie won't be able to deal with physical threats if it wants to counter or even outspeed Nidoqueen. That leaves 4 team slots to cover up most of the important RU threats and required roles (hazards, Rapid Spin, etc), which isn't enough from my experience. Maybe you made a successful team with those two though, but I couldn't be sure from your post.

    Also I don't think that balance teams are exactly flourishing right now. Forms of offense are pretty clearly the dominant playstyle, while hail comes in second and the rest (balance, semistall, stall) are just mediocre or just not worth using at all. The other offensive Pokemon in the tier all have a lot more flaws than Nidoqueen, which is probably why no one has brought them up in this suspect discussion yet. This should also come into question in this discussion.
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