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RU Stage 14 Suspect Voting

Discussion in 'Blind Voting' started by Oglemi, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi I love you wonderful Minun-Kun!
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    Eligible Voters (open)

    Windsong
    Ciele
    Bad Romance
    Molk
    SilentVerse
    blarajan
    Texas Cloverleaf
    august
    Nails
    DittoCrow
    Limitless


    You may vote Ban, Do Not Ban, or Abstain for any of these Pokemon. Remember, if you are unsure about a Suspect's tiering, do not vote to Abstain, vote Do Not Ban instead. Abstain is only an option for those who do not want to vote for a Suspect, for whatever reason. That is different from being uncertain where a Suspect should be tiered.

    Also when voting, Council members please give a little description explaining your votes.

    The suspect for this round is Nidoqueen. Suspects will need a 6-5 majority to be banned.

    Remember, all admins, supermods, or PR mods voting, you need to delete your post in order to keep this a "blind" vote.

    This thread will close Sunday, February 3 at 11:59 pm, or when all votes are accounted for.
  2. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Nidoqueen: Do Not Ban


    Nobody's denying that Nidoqueen isnt one of the best Pokemon in the tier, in fact, saying that Nidoqueen isnt a top tier threat in RU should be a federal offense, but i don't think that she warrants a ban. One of the main reasons that people think Nidoqueen is broken is because its supposed to pressure Balanced and Stall teams into being unviable, after playing quite a few matches with many different playstyles, i can say that both balanced and stall teams are capable of handling Nidoqueen. Balanced teams have multiple options for checking queen including Uxie, Mesprit, Gardevoir, Gallade, and Piloswine, all of which have a defined niche outside of beating queen, and a few are even top tier threats otherwise. Stall teams are more troubled, but there are still ways for a stall team to deal with Nidoqueen via things like Musharna, Clefable, and even Munchlax if your genuinely that desperate. I feel the real thing thats pressuring RU stall teams isn't just Nidoqueen, but the sheer amount of offensive Pokemon that reside in the RU tier. Gallade, Druddigon, Moltres, Sigilyph, and Magmortar are just a few examples of common Pokemon that can give Stall teams a run for their money, making it a combined effort if anything. People have also mentioned that using Nidoqueen gives you an immediate advantage over a player who isn't using it, but i can say from personal experience that this isn't true, i've used and played against multiple teams without Nidoqueen and i never felt like either player had an advantage during the match simply because of queen. All in all, while Nidoqueen is easily one of the, if not the best Pokemon in the RU tier at the moment, i dont think that its inherently broken, and it should remain in RU until UU players wisen up and it moves up (trust me, it will happen).

    Dont hurt me if my arguments are dumb :x
  3. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    Ban

    It took me a long time to come to this decision, but I ultimately decided that it is too powerful for the metagame. My original question was whether or not stall could handle Nidoqueen. However, as I played through the suspect test, I realized that Nidoqueen, if gotten in on a slower Pokemon, will get a kill. I just think it's too powerful for the metagame, and focuses the metagame into one that encourages usage of Pokemon that are faster than Nidoqueen. Anything slower will just be setup bait for Nidoqueen to get a free kill.

    In ordinance to Oglemi's question about it being a disadvantage if you don't use it: I don't think it's a disadvantage, simply because there are types of teams that don't really need the role that Nidoqueen provides. However, you can most certainly stick it on any type of team and have at least moderate success with it.

    The bottom line is that Nidoqueen discourages the use of anything slower than Nidoqueen; otherwise, something will die upon the entry of the queen.
  4. Ciele

    Ciele
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    Nidoqueen: Do Not Ban

    Although it's arguably the best Pokemon in the tier at breaking common stall, it doesn't enjoy anywhere near the same success against offense-based teams (which are omnipresent), due to its mediocre Speed and average bulk. Even stall has ways of getting around it, most notably an Uxie + Clefable / Lickilicky core which Nidoqueen struggles to wear down. It's also somewhat predictable, since it only has one viable set =)
  5. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    changing my vote to abstain
  6. Hikari

    Hikari
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    Do Not Ban

    Nidoqueen is without any doubt the best Pokemon in the RU tier, but in my opinion it is not broken in the current metagame.

    The first thing is that you are not required to use Nidoqueen to have a successful team, many people have proved this on ladder and important tournament matches. This of course doesn't mean Nidoqueen is bad or anything like that, it just means Nidoqueen is not the kind of Pokemon you can mindlessly put in your team and watch it wreck.

    Just like every Pokemon it needs team support to work properly and play around its counters and checks. Yes Nidoqueen does have counters, they are not many but they exist and they are perfectly viable in the RU tier. Clefable, Uxie, Gardevoir, Lickilicky, Musharna, and Misdreavus (With investment in its SDef) can switch into virtually any Nidoqueen and beat it without any issue, I'm probably missing some Pokemon because these are just the ones I can remember right now. There are other Pokemon like Mesprit, Cryogonal, specially defensive Slowking and Piloswine that can easily check Nidoqueen in nearly every possible scenario, they are not foolproof counters but they can deal with Nidoqueen most of the time.

    Fitting any of those Pokemon in a stall is perfectly possible and they all do a lot more than just beating Nidoqueen. Granted this doesn't mean dealing with it is easy for stall, because it's not. Nidoqueen’s resistance to Stealth Rock and Immunity to Toxic damage means wearing it down with passive damage is incredibly hard if you are lacking Spikes. However most defensive Pokemon have a way of damaging Nidoqueen, which means it can't just freely switch without dying in a match against a stall team.

    So if it is possible for stall to beat Nidoqueen, why is stall not as viable as offense? In my opinion this is because there is an absurd amount of viable offensive threats, even some Pokemon in NU are amazing offensive threats in RU like Braviary and Fraxure, and it's simply not possible to cover everything with just 6 Pokemon. Nidoqueen might contribute to how difficult is to build a successful stall team but it just one of the many Pokemon that do that, banning it won't fix anything.

    And to finish this post I just want to say something everyone knows, Nidoqueen has problems with offensive and (some) balanced teams because of its exploitable weakness and lackluster speed. It is not dead weight against those playstyles but it is significantly less threatening.
  7. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    It's funny, it seems these days when it comes time to vote for a suspect I have little to say, having put it all out there on the forums or on irc already. But I'll reiterate some of the points so far that have led me to my decision on Nidoqueen. Despite being an amazing special attacker, Nidoqueen is not broken, as she neither inhibits diversity nor requires extreme countermeasures to be taken to beat her. Many arguments have been made about how Nidoqueen destroys stall and balance teams, however, I believe that both playstyles are capable of being used effectively, and that decreases in Stall's utility is not solely a function of Nidoqueen's presence in the tier. Nidoqueen is the best Pokemon in RU, and will improve almost any team she is on, but she is not broken.

    I will first state that when evaluating a suspect, I judge them of their individual merit, whether they themselves are powerful enough to break a tier. I therefore discount any arguments centering around team support, as the Pokemon in question is thus not broken of its own merit. I also discount any argument regarding a Pokemon shifting a metagame. I do not accept this position as a valid argument because every Pokemon shifts a metagame, and when powerful threats are introduced into a tier the metagame will shift irrespective of the power level of the Pokemon.

    Now, there are several Pokemon that can effectively and consistently beat Nidoqueen. Specially Defensive Slowking is only 2HKOd after rocks by Thunderbolt, and can switch out for multiple opportunities to switch in again should it be predicted and is therefore a counter (note that the Queen user is forced to Thunderbolt twice for the KO and thus must Tbolt turn 2). Uxie is the most common Nidoqueen counter, and can switch in against Nidoqueen multiple times. Gardevoir is a lesser used counter that fills the same role as Uxie. Cryogonal is an excellent check to Nidoqueen, fearing little from it beyond a predicted Fire Blast. Clefable can likewise check Queen bar the rare Focus Blast. There are similarly several bulky Pokemon such as Druddigon that don't like taking one or two attacks from Nidoqueen but can severely threaten it if they get in safely. Thus it can be said that there are 3 good and viable queen counters, a few strong checks, and a bunch of weaker checks to Nidoqueen. These Pokemon are options for Stall and Balanced teams to use to compete without putting yourself at an immediate disadvantage. Combinations such as Uxie+Wish Clefable can likewise be used to cover Nidoqueen as well as several ther Pokemon while keeping the team healthy.

    To address Oglemi's other first questions, while adding Nidoqueen to a team will only benefit it the majority of the time, it is not required to have a successful team in RU. Offensive teams can quite easily function effectively without it, and stall teams will often not consider running it at all. Not running Nidoqueen does not negatively impact you, unless you decide to use a Specially Offensive Hyper offense team without the best Special Attacker in the tier.

    Now to address the statements that Nidoqueen destroys stall, these statements are only true insofar as they destroy traditional RU stall, which was based around having a counter for everything. Nidoqueen's list of complete counters is very small because of its versatility which hampers the form of stall. However, Pokemon such as Hypno, Musharna, and Gardevoir are viable counters to Nidoqueen on top of the previously mentioned options to check it. While some may claim that this is overcentralising, it is no different from running Regirock on a stall team to immunize oneself from Moltres.

    There is often a claim that Nidoqueen is broken because of its susceptability to passive damage. I believe this simply makes it an inherently better Pokemon, improving its durability, not that it makes Nidoqueen overpowered. Despite the fact that it is immune to Poison, Burn, and Toxic Spikes, while resisting SR, the fact remains that any damage it incurs IS permanent. Any weak attacks it switches in on, and random burns it might incur trying to come in on a Spiritomb are permanent decreases in its health. On top of that, it is very vulnerable to Spikes, an excellent option in the current metagame. The end result is that Nidoqueen cannot switch in with impunity, it must come in on double switches or after KOs a large part of the time. While it is certainly a dangerous Pokemon when in play, it often has difficulty getting into play in the first place.

    I've talked for a bit so I'm going to conclude with the fact that Nidoqueen does not impact Offensive teams at all, in large part due to her subpar speed. Almost every Pokemon on an offensive team will be able to OHKO Nidoqueen or at least 2HKO it. This forces Nidoqueen to play safely on the few occasions it manages to get in lest it be KOd. This means that if offense isn't in a position to outright KO Nidoqueen it will often be able to get in another teammate that can through inherent resists, such as Fire Blast on a Kabutops, or through various immunities, such as Earth Power on a Rotom or Aerodactyl. Offensive teams will also frequently carry bulky Pokemon that can switch in on most of Nidoqueens options and force it out or KO it, including Gallade or Druddigon. Furthermore, most offensive pokemon will outspeed Ndioqueen, and offensive teams will frequently be in a position where they can sacrifice a Pokemon to do, say, 70% to Nidoqueen thus removing it as a threat.

    In short Nidoqueen is not very good against offense, is excellent against stall, but can be dealth with by the creative (users blarajan and Oglemi have made successful stall teams accounting for Queen) and can significantly threaten balance, with the caveat that it itself is often significantly threatened by balance.

    To summarize, I do not believe that Nidoqueen is broken in RU of its own merit. Therefore, Do not Ban Nidoqueen. i will conclude with a quote I found in an old thread about suspect testing that seems to summarize many of my feelings about this, and other suspect tests.

    "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like."
  8. august

    august free the robots
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    Nidoqueen is without a doubt a threat to the RU tier. However, Nidoqueen does not limit the playstyles of RU like it was once thought to do. The RU tier has adapted around Nidoqueen, and stall and balanced defensive playstyles are just as viable as they ever were. People have often argued that Nidoqueen "forces you to use pokemon who are otherwise useless", which is a completely false statement. Take for example, the most common Nidoqueen check: Uxie. Saying that Uxie is a useless pokemon is a lie, as it is one of the ideal support pokemon with its huge support movepool and decent natural speed in order to prevent having to pump an excess amount of speed into being able to beat Nidoqueen. Other pokemon, such as Musharna, Gardevoir, and Clefable that also beat Nidoqueen are also nowhere near useless. It is certainly hyperbole to say that 3 pokemon that can beat the strongest special attacker in the RU metagame are "otherwise useless outside of beating Nidoqueen". A good amount of pokemon used on defensive teams as well naturally outspeed Nidoqueen and force it out with the threat of heavy damage. Stall and defensive playing are just as viable as they have always been for people who are willing to use pokemon outside of their comfort zone. The notion that Nidoqueen makes the metagame more offensive is certainly true, but this is only because it takes much less thought to run 6 offensive pokemon that outrun and threaten Nidoqueen as opposed to carefully crafting a stall team equipped with all of the tools a stall team needs while still being able to beat Nidoqueen. The problem is not Nidoqueen, the problem is that some people are too lazy to adapt to Nidoqueen

    DO NOT BAN
  9. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    Ban

    Is Nidoqueen absolutely required to have in order to have a successful RU team?

    Not completely... there have been some team builds that have come up that can get by without nidoqueen.

    Does not running Nidoqueen immediately put you at a disadvantage?

    In general, yes; again, it's not that black and white, but there are also situations where it's not in your best interest to run venomoth or porygon-z, and those pokemon were still deemed broken.

    Are there any hard counters to Nidoqueen?

    Kind of. SDef Uxie can switch in and force it out once, and clefable can counter it if it has full hp and nidoqueen doesn't run focus blast. However, the word "counter" is misleading because when you countered nidoqueen you forced it to switch out and take 6% on sr coming in the next time, and it's not nearly as effective as "countering" anything else by forcing it to switch out because of nidoqueen's near immunity to passive damage.

    Does Nidoqueen legitimately make playing with stall inviable? Is it possible to have a successful stall team in this metagame?

    No; again, it's not that simple. There are some viable stall builds. It makes stall much, much worse as it does make toxic spikes unviable, is the best offensive switch into thunder wave and toxic imaginable, and is in a good enough speed tier that bulkymons can't outspeed it and get 2hkoed.

    Is Nidoqueen the sole reason for this trend?

    Yes. The meta had to adapt to its presence causing offensive pokemon to surge in usage. The reaction to nidoqueen was almost as bad as queen itself for stall.


    What none of these questions address is the impact nidoqueen has on previously viable team archtypes like semistall and balance.

    Nidoqueen was dropped into a metagame without any special walls. Before queen, the meta had gotten along fine with a slightly different means of checking pokemon; through typing. There were plenty of powerful attackers but they could all be checked through typing. Moltres loses to aerodactyl. Specs Sceptile loses to SpD dragons or something. You can't check nidoqueen through typing because it has obscenely powerful coverage.

    You can't wear nidoqueen down with status because of the aforementioned immunity to toxic and twave. Its ~immunity to sr, and it doesn't take life orb recoil, so you're forced to attack it.

    This doesn't kill stall; stall is the only team type bulky enough to check nidoqueen defensively. What it does ruin is slow teams who want to have offensive presence. Stall can afford to seismic toss nidoqueen 4 times with clefable. Balance doesn't have that much time, and it can't carry full counters to everything. The end result is nidoqueen rampaging its way through a team that can't deal with both its teammates and it while remaining offensively threatening.
  10. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Do Not Ban

    Nidoqueen isn't fucking broken. <==explanation

    Show Hide

    stall isn't impossible, and other things are significantly more difficult to handle than Nidoqueen. if you use a specific pokemon that is threatened and forced out by a big threat, you better be sure you have a very good answer to the pokemon that threatens it (like lanturn when running escavalier)...complaining about doing so is just lazy. not having a 100% answer to a pokemon 100% of the time in all circumstances does not make a pokemon broken, and even still, nido has counters. it's not broken and hail makes its life very miserable (to the point where i frequently consider running it a liability). you don't need nido to win, and nido isn't a win condition. it's strong and occasionally annoying to deal with, but so are all the big threats. perfectly viable ru pokemon imo.
  11. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Ban Nidoqueen

    Nidoqueen is a very difficult Pokemon to deal with for slower teams, due to how perfectly placed its attributes are for utterly demolishing slower RU teams. First of all, Nidoqueen, while slow by offensive team standards, really has a perfect speed tier; with its Speed, it outspeeds virtually every strong wall in RU, and due to its obscene coverage, it is able to 2HKO most of RU's walls and even OHKO some of them. The fact that Nidoqueen cannot be dealt with by traditional defensive methods such as Toxic poison and Thunder Wave also means that Nidoqueen puts defensive teams at a significant disadvantage, as the defensive team must outplay the Nidoqueen user numerous times in order to take it down, while not losing multiple Pokemon in the process. Because of this, slower / balanced teams have to be incredibly offensive in order to stop Nidoqueen from coming in freely, as otherwise, it will almost always get a kill, if not more. Yes, there are some answers to Nidoqueen for slower teams, such Uxie, Gardevoir, Clefable, and such, but even then, if Nidoqueen REALLY wanted, it could just use Shadow Ball / Focus Blast to 2HKO them; the thing is, no one has needed to do this because no one uses slower teams with these defensive answers to Nidoqueen anymore, simply because it can already overwhelm them with its regular set, which speaks a lot about how strong Nidoqueen is.

    Essentially, Nidoqueen, by absolutely demolishing slower teams single-handedly, centralizes the metagame around fast, offensive sweepers who are able to outspeed Nidoqueen, for they are the best bet against Nidoqueen. No other Pokemon does this to the extent Nidoqueen does, so therefore, I feel that Nidoqueen should be banned.
  12. Oglemi

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    Not all the votes are in but it doesn't matter since Nidoqueen reached a 6 majority Do Not Ban votes.

    Final tally:

    6-3-1

    Nidoqueen will not be banned from RU

    Thanks to all that voted.
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