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RU Suspect Vote 1

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Nails, Oct 19, 2011.

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  1. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    It seems like we just got rid of Yanmega and Venomoth, and now here we are trying to ban stuff again?

    Well, as you guys know, since the last thread a new batch of pokemon was released from the dream world, and a couple of them have taken RU by storm. So, we're putting the following pokemon up for discussion for banning:
    Code:
    Alakazam
    Sableye
    The vote will be council style. The council is seven members, appointed by me and Oglemi. These positions do not change unless a member chooses to step down or is inactive.
    Code:
    doomvendingmachine
    Fried_Rhys
    Heysup
    Nails
    Oglemi
    PKGaming
    Zephyr
    This thread will be open for 2 days, and will close on Friday, October 21 at 8:00 PM EST. The council will meet soon after to discuss the content mentioned in the thread and debate the suspects, after which each member will vote. A simple majority is required for a ban.

    This thread is for discussing the suspects only. It is not a nomination thread, and any other posts will be deleted. With that said, please discuss the suspects freely; the council will be reading this thread and if you make a good case it's likely you could sway some voters.
  2. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    alakazam isn't that great.

    He has two potential sets in this meta: LO 4 attacks and sash. Sash is a stupid gimmick that will probably kill one Pokemon but never more unless your team is pretty horrible - It has the raw power of a Porygon but not the Download boost that makes it killer.

    LO 4 attacks, on the other hand, is such a glass cannon that as long as you have a single Pokemon faster than him (or scarfer) he doesn't stand a chance. Theoretically he could switch in and out and in and out slowly killing Pokemon, but he never seems to work as good in battles as on paper.

    Sableye, on the other hand, I've already made my arguments for in the suspect test thread and feel no need to repost, although I will say that Sableye is not meant to be a pivot to any physical attackers - he can't come in on many - he's meant to cripple and wall virtually every threat in the game once he's in (he does)
  3. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Both of these Pokemon are great in any tier. However, if we dont ban and they drop, I dont want them back. Sabeleye in particular is ridiculously over centralising.
  4. Choice Socks

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    Sableye shuts down stall completely with its priority taunt and recovery. It also severely limits the amount of viable physical attackers team to those that chose to run a lum berry for a one off chance to kill sableye, or attackers immune to burn, such as Entei, Floatzel, Rapidash. I know Sableye can not switch into most of the physical attackers as its bulk is less than admirable, but if Sableye is already in then any attacker that wants to switch in is at its mercy.

    Zam on the other hand I am not so sure if its broken. It almost always runs LO, so can be revenged by most scarfers. Not to mention it has the physical bulk of a girl guide. It is a very powerful special attacker if a team is not prepared for it, but then again, so are Porygon-Z, Moltres, Charizard, Typholsion.

    PS: If Sableye is banned from RU, does that ban it from NU to?
  5. Axmaster68

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    I have to say I think MG Alakazam should be UU. With Magic Guard, Alakazam gets a free 1.3x boost to its attacks, and takes nothing from weather or hazards. I've been swept by this guy many times, and the only way to really counter it, in my opinion, is to revenge it. Personally, Recover+ 3 attacks LO set is going to do very well in a balanced metagame, but a LO+4 attacks set would also gain a team many sweeps if used right.

    On the other hand, there is Sableye. One of the frailest pokemon in the RU metagame, but yet one of the most threatening pokemon yet. Prankster made Sableye go from NU at best to RU or even UU. The evidence goes both sides, as Sableye can shut down almost anything, except special attackers that don't need setup. If you need setup, Sableye totally shuts you down. Physical all you have left? You're stuck praying for a miss. The evidence goes both ways on this guy, but it's all up to you.
  6. RevolverKnight

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    Sableye needs to go. The best comparison I can think of is Excadrill in OU. The Mole forced you to carry at least 1 counter and was able to render entire play-styles nigh impossible to play. Sableye does this as well, maybe even better. He ruins physical attackers forcing you to run a counter-counter to him (usually Entei, Floatzel or a Guts user), makes using set up sweepers ineffective, and don't even get me started on how he destroys Stall. He has almost singlehandedly turn RU into a Special-based metagame. He, like the mole, over centralizes the meta, and ,again like the mole, it would be a relief and healthy to the metagame to have a non-Sableye focused/run RU.
  7. BattleStar

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    Sableye is overrated. It is not that hard to take down and most good teams can render saybleye harmless. You may say that one of its big problems is the status problems it sends but it can very easily gone with a nice cleric. Also his WOW does nothing to special attackers especially moltres. I seen many (and my) KO specially defensive (which is not very common) with a fireblast.

    Edit: Also guts users actaully benfit from saybleye quite a bit.

    Saybleye also may have been weakness-less but after a foresight ( which is used for rapid spin) from a hitmonchan or hitmonlee it can be KOed EVEN WITH a BURN from a move of Drain Punch or higher. Saybleye also falls very weaK PRIORITY moves. A Honchkrow can make quick of the ghoul from even with a unboosted suckerpunch. WOW can do a thing to substitute aswell.

    Saybleye also hates status condition in which it will make its stalling come to a end. A toxic or sleeping Saybleye is pretty much bye bye for it.

    I will post later about alakzam but I do not have very much experience with it and found I can easily KO it with any of my leads.
  8. waterwarrior

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    While I agree that Sableye isn't as amazing as people make it out to be, it really does need to go. When you havn't seen a Scarf Primeape in days, somethings wrong, that thing's great. Sableye is definitely overcentralizing things, plus its just the most annoying piece of shit I've ever seen. Even if its not bulky, it has priority Recover, more than enough. Plus it spinblocks.

    And while I'd hate to see Alakazam go, it really does have to. SashZam packs more power than you might think, and it completely says "screw you" to 99% of walls. Sorry old buddy, but its time.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    It hasn't even been 2 weeks since the ban on Venomoth and Yanmega - shouldn't banning decisions take place after the RU metagame had a chance to stabilize from the major shifts that took place?

    waterwarrior, there's no rule saying that Scarf Primeape must shine in RU. Annoying to deal with is also not a reason to ban things. As long as there are ample of answers to these threats, I don't see any reason for a ban. I think Honko's recent post on the RU suspect thread summarizes this point very well:

  10. VN.

    VN.
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    You obviously haven't played stall. If Sableye comes in before Toxic Spikes are up then you are at a huge disadvantage. You could always run Flareon, albeit they can always run Toxic on their Sableye, but Flareon is, in my opinion, generally inferior to Lickilicky as a Special Wall and Support Pokemon.

    Alakazam is just way too strongth, for better lack of words.
  11. Honko

    Honko
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    I've made my feelings on Sableye clear.
    from megathread (open)
    Sableye doesn't make physical attackers unviable at all. If for some reason you refuse to carry Lum Berry on anything (and refusing to adapt to a threat is not a good reason to ban the threat) then you can still beat it by hitting it hard on the switch. If it's coming in after a KO, you can beat it by having a Substitute up. If you can't fit Substitute or Lum Berry on your team, then you should have a Will-O-Wisp absorber, like Entei or Moltres or Hariyama or Alakazam or Swellow (all of which are perfectly viable Pokemon anyway) or a cleric, like Uxie or Leafeon or Clefable or Lanturn (all of which are also perfectly viable Pokemon). If you refuse to use Lum Berry or Substitute or a status absorber or a cleric and don't have any attackers strong enough to do 70% on the switch to a Pokemon with defenses worse than Pidgeot, then yeah, Sableye is gonna fuck you up. That doesn't mean Sableye is overpowered, it means your team is bad.

    It's not broken. It's a good Pokemon, and it's a menace if you don't prepare for it, but unpreparedness is not a reason to ban something. It's a bad spinblocker (loses to most spinners if they carry Lum), and it's a bad wall (loses to most offensive Pokemon if they simply play smart and hit it on the switch or carry Lum or are special or are immune to WoW). The only playstyle it's really great against is stall, and stall would suck right now even without Sableye. Do not ban Sableye.

    Alakazam on the other hand is probably broken. It's virtually impossible to play around a good Alakazam. Most offensive Pokemon get OHKOed by one of its Life Orb attacks, so they have to carry a Scarf to beat it, but even then it's not safe to bring a Scarfer in if Zam is at full HP because it could have a Sash instead. You can try to play around it with a Scarf U-turn to a wall and then back to the Scarfer, but one good prediction by Zam and your Scarfer (and probably the rest of your team) is toast. It's not just uncounterable, it's extremely dangerous to even check. Ban Alakazam.
  12. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    I have played stall. I am very well known about the RU tier. I use one and am prepared to face one. The thing about Saybleye is the lack of preparation on teams
  13. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
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    1. It's spelt Sableye, please stop spelling it Saybleye.

    2. To answer Pocket's question, we are effectively initiating the "quick ban" option. When something as (in my opinion) obviously broken as Alakazam is in the tier, we should be able to (try to) get rid of it as soon as possible. Two weeks is actually quite a long time for people to adapt to certain threats, especially good players (it's 2/3 of a suspect test fyi). Why should we have to wait to ban something we (again imo) think is overtly broken?

    3. Really everybody should be posting their opinions here. Just because we have an effective council set up, doesn't mean that our opinions can't be swayed by the common thought. So speak up!

    EDIT 4. To answer Choice Socks's question. Yes, if Sableye is banned from RU, it will be banned from NU. Just like if Drizzle Politoed dropped into UU you wouldn't be able to use Swift Swimmers on the same team as it because of the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban in OU.
  14. Brophlosion

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    I think Sableye is a bit too good in this tier. His Priority WoW shuts off most physical sweepers and his typeing allows him to switch in on almost anything. With Sableye you can just Recover/Substitute spam and stall out most threats. All Sableye really does is make you have to prepare for him. Sure there are a couple of counters to him, but I think having to run those counters on my team is the problem. I shouldn't have to bend to his gameplay.

    As for Alakazam, I think hes a great addition to the tier for now. I don't really see a problem with him. But I might be a little uninformed, I've just never had a problem with it. I wouldn't be opposed to anyone thinking he should go though. Magic Guard is one crazy ability, and he is a great sweeper. A deadly combination.
  15. Honko

    Honko
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    Some calcs vs 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD Calm Sableye, the standard spread.

    CB Aggron Head Smash - 117-138%
    CB Entei Flare Blitz - 106-125%
    LO Honchkrow Brave Bird - 98-115%
    CB Crawdaunt Waterfall - 89-105%
    LO Moltres Fire Blast - 87-103%
    LO Omastar Hydro Pump - 82-97%
    LO Durant X-Scissor - 81-95%
    LO Sharpedo Hydro Pump - 77-91%
    LO Kabutops Stone Edge - 77-91%

    These aren't cherry picked, this is simply some of the best attackers in the tier with standard spreads using their standard STAB attacks as Sableye switches in, and doing enough damage to either OHKO on the spot, or finish Sableye off the next turn if it chooses to stay in and burn you. Sableye cannot "switch in on almost anything." Not even close. Even if you're too stubborn to use Lum Berry in a metagame where it's a legitimately useful item, you can still beat Sableye by simply pounding it on its Raticate-level defensive stats.

    I really get the feeling that some people aren't even trying to beat Sableye. They've already decided that it's broken a long time ago (before it was released?), so they refuse to try adapting at all.
  16. Pwnemon

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    I disagree completely with the bolded point; Stall is not RU-unviable; I'm running a stall team right now and am currently at #21 on the ladder. Anyway, about sableye as a whole, all your "counters" depend wholly on A) Sableye coming in on the switch and B) Sableye not having any acceptable teammates.

    Let's look at common Sub Users, to start.

    Gallade is taunted, so all he can do is pinch you with Shadow Weak while you Foul Play his sub and proceed to wall
    Durant is taunted, you can alternate between recover and Foul Play (2 will break Sub) then burn
    SubRoost Krow is basically the only one that beats Sableye, but again, in RU meta, you'll be the one coming in on Sableye, not the other way around.

    For "all attackers that can do 70%" the Sableye player has to be horribly misusing their Pokemon, because as I said above, Sableye doesn't come in on Pokemon. Once he digs his foxhole though, you're fucked.

    Lum is great excluding that little thing we call the "switch" button. Sableye burns you, you recover. He switches, then comes in on your wall, and this time there's nothing you can do.

    WoW absorbers are the only real Sableye counters, but they're also all handily beaten by the best bulky water and special wall in the tier, except Alakazam, who is beaten by the encrusted ghoul himself. Whoops.

    Sableye isn't a pivot or a counter to anything (well, Medicham, but not much else) but once he's in he's hella hard to get out. That's what makes him broken.

    EDIT: If 252/252 Careful isn't standard, it should be.
  17. Honko

    Honko
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    Fucked if you don't have anything that can force Sableye out, but there are plenty of viable special attackers that can do just that. The argument is that Sableye "makes non-Fire-type physical attackers completely unusable" which is obviously not true if it can't switch in on them. You can have a team full of WoW-weak physical attackers as long as you save at least one slot for something like Moltres.

    You forgot the second half of the turn, where my unburned attacker does a ton of damage to Sableye. Sure you can switch out (if you survived) but then my attacker is free to wreak havoc, and Sableye can't come back in even after a KO because even a burned attack will finish it off.

    I agree to an extent (that's the spread I used) but 252/120/136 is the spread going in the analyses, and investing nothing in physical defense makes most of those calcs even worse.
  18. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    Now, since we are talking about smart play, what stops you from switching in your check/counter to said special wall when you predict that?
    And you say he switches. As he switches out (assuming Taunt ended), you'll use a stat boosting move and now that he switches in, you sub.
    Done.
    Sableye might be unhealthy for the metagame, but is by no means broken.
    And won't Blastoise be UU when the tiers update anyway?
    He's ranked 27 in UU usage, so...
  19. steviestar

    steviestar

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    Blastoise is already UU, the tiers updated a while ago.

    Also Sableye really needs to go if only because of priority Sunny Day / Rain Dance. Yeah, Murkrow can do it too, but Murkrow can't spread burns and has an SR weakness and is just a lot easier to play around in general. Murkrow also has to sacrifice its (still rather poor) bulk to run a heat/damp rock.
  20. Heysup

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    My thing with Sableye was never that it walled Aggron and co, it was that you can't BEAT it with Aggron and co. It can literally beat any (non Fire) physical attacker without a Lum Berry, and just a reminder if the only reason you're using a Lum Berry is to pass Sableye that's a good indication as any that you're reducing your over all effectiveness greatly to deal with one single problem. Note: it's a one time use. Note to that note: Toxic
    Spikes.....

    Also can't ignore priority weather.

    Alakazam is straight up ridiculous it basically has zero counters and can't be revenged without having something else die.

    I also just want to additionally point out that Alakazam will 100% be UU while I'd bet that Sableye will join him.
  21. Brophlosion

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    Perfect. That about sums everything up.
  22. HuntSaboteur

    HuntSaboteur

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    Sableye: Ban. It has high special defense that makes it only take 33% from a Signal Beam from Alakazam. The only true counter to it, therefore, is Entei. Viable anyway, but anything with only one counter is broken.

    Alakazam: Do Not Ban, or if it makes you feel better, Ban with Magic Guard. MGZam isn't even that good - Sash Counter is better. Alakazam is countered by most Dark-types *coughhonchkrowandmandibuzzcough*.

    Also, surely it would be better to do this normally i.e.e top-100-players style?
  23. Amarillo

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    I feel I’m compelled to consider the influence between those two brokenmons before banning. First, Sableye is a good measure of checking Alakazam, and vise versa. Specially Defensive Sableye is immune to Alakazam's two attacking types, while the weak Shadow Ball 3HKOs even with Life Orb. This is pretty obvious--and I dare say one of the most reliable way--of checking Alakazam. On the other hand, Alakazam is immune to all passive damage, so it can force an attacking move and scout the Sableye’s set. Luring the payback allows easier switch-ins. Especially considering that even Lum berry stuff can't switch in directly on either a Taunt or WoW, getting my Lum Berry physical attacker on a weak Payback is a blessing. OK, that might be a stretch—it’s a way, but there’s better ways to handle Sableye out there. If you observe these cases, you’ll see that Sableye ban will almost directly lead to Alakazam ban, but not vice versa. Taking this into account, let us proceed.

    The bigger offender at the moment is Alakazam, because he's just ridiculously strong, no other way to put it. He shits over stall teams with immunity to passive damage. If you're playing offense, he's super fast so your only bet is Scarfers. I mean, it's really really dangerous to switch into it period because Scarfers can't take his attack (unless you predict a Psychic move and switch in a Scarf Krook or something, idk, but two can play the prediction game.) If you look at a lot of ‘I have no safe switch-ins’ type of Pokemon, you’ll see that they have really mediocre speed if they’re not gonna get banned. Alakazam is fast & has no switch-ins, and that’s what breaks him. You're pretty bad if you can't get any kills with Alakazam.

    Arguments against banning Alakazam? It can't have both Recover or CM (which allows it to do Stallbreaking duties) and Substitute (which allows it to be ridiculous vs offense) unless you ditch Shadow Ball and get walled by the other top Pokemon of the tier. If Sableye wasn't here, then there's no question asked; Alakazam would be banned. Still, the ‘Zam user is in complete advantage because as the opponent, you don’t get to see what moves it has.

    Sableye is really summed up by Honko--you have to prepare for it, and it just becomes a lame Pokemon. It will either give up momentum to stuff like LO Moltres which just start wrecking through your shit, or it will get a miss / face Lum user and just die. We all know switching it in is rather difficult, while forcing it out is predictably easy. The fact that a lot of Sableye users really depend on it is the final nail in the coffin, especially when the opponent needs to make just a tiny change in his team in order to turn a tough battle into a one-sided rout.

    However, I do see a possible counterargument to the "just carry Lum" argument. In DPP, Wobbuffet was entirely 'counterable' by carrying a Shed Shell on a target that you know it's going to switch in on. You might say the Team Preview makes all the difference, but in the Teambuilding process level, it's quite similar: in order to prevent this one mon from switching in and wrecking it, I'll carry a super situational item. Shed Shell didn't prevent Wobb from being banned. Balloon didn't prevent Excadrill from being banned. Choice Scarf didn't prevent Thundurus from being banned. All these items are ridiculously useless and situational. (In case of Scarf, it was ‘useless and situational in the given metagame with Excadrill’, or so they say.) In case of Balloon, it is a consumable item that may be used up during the course of the battle, making it super unreliable. A Lum berry is rather situational, and it can be used up during the course of the battle. I realize ‘just carry Lum’ is not the same as ‘just carry balloon.' The balloon is of course a lot more situational & unreliable. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here because there are some striking similarities. If there's Tspikes up, then you get to burn through Lum and burn him anyways. I guess the Item slot is really valuable to just spam Lum, a really situational item really used for Sableye only (especially as stall --and therefore status spreading--is ironically flat out unviable thanks to the two suspects)

    tl;dr: I’d ban Alakazam, and I'm really fine with Sableye in one or the other. Sableye in RU just means a really, really centralized metagame. But as knowledgeable people like Heysup say, 'overcentralization' isn't even a word. You can't ban just because of the 'overcentralization.'
  24. VuvuzelaBzz

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    The RU playerbase is far too small for a top 100 player vote, or any voting system to be truly effective. As it stands you can make the top hundred in just a few battles, without any prior knowledge of the metagame. I've faced some pretty bad top 100 players and that's simply because the playerbase is so small that it is inevitable some bad players will make it there. I feel that the council system is perfect for a metagame the size of RU, because votes with small voting pools can be affected negatively by a number of factors, like players who just happen to make top hundred skewing the result without actually using any argumentation or logic to back their opinions. Voting reqs mean nothing in a tier where #1 is high 1400s, since you can make 1200 in about 4 matches against mediocre players.

    As for the actual suspects, I'm rather undecided on Sableye, however I don't feel Alakazam is broken.

    On Alakazam, my opinion is that is checked by a large number of pokemon, both offensively and defensively. Most common priority hits it for more than 75%, scarfers are by no means uncommon. I'd say the Sash set is better than LO simply because it has the ability to let you stop sweeps. LO has a few defensive checks, such as Sableye, Claydol, Uxie etc., as well as a hard counter in Mandibuzz. Slowking can check it to great successm as it's not 2HKOd, Regenerator lets it heal off pretty much all damage taken from even SE attack's from Zam and it can cripple zam with Twave. Zam is a good pokemon, however it has not proven to be broken in my experience s far.

    Sableye is more controversial in my mind. Most "burn absorbers" do not appreciate Foul Play, or are fairly easy to play around with properly built team(plus Sableye can just stall Guts ones by spamming recover). As other have said it's not able to switch in safely on much, however when used by good players I've seen it do wonders. As far as special attackers beating it goes, if they come in on WoW and get burned, then most can and will be stalled out bar a crit, and that's IF Sableye stays in. 252/252 Sableye is not 2HKOd by Modest Rotom-C Tbolt, which is a fairly powerful special attack for RU.
  25. AlphaJolt

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    I do not find Sableye broken. Sure, it's annoying as hell, but it's still beatable. No you can't switch your physical attacker in when Sableye is already in, but he can't switch into their attacks without taking a shitton of damage. Entei rapes him and so does any good special attacker. He is the best stall breaker around, but he hates getting Toxic and doesnt like repeatedly switching into hazards either, especially when taking a hit.

    Alakazam is broken as hell. He doesn't take hazards damage, he doesn't take LO recoil, and he doesn't take Toxic or Burn damage. He's tied for second fastest pokemon in the tier and also ties for the highest special attack. Sure his defenses are shitty, but if he's behind a sub when you switch your "counter" in you're gunna die. Besides his general three attacks (Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast) he can run Substitute, Calm Mind, Recover. He can also run just two attacks and two of the afore mentioned moves. There are zero hard counters to him because he can slightly alter his set to beat any poke. I don't want to wait till he's moved up to UU, he should be banned now.
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