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RU Theorymonning

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Kenny, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Shame That

    Shame That cheerio
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    Roar Slowking seems kind of meh to me... I think Slowking benefits more from just running Dragon Tail if it wants to phaze and using Heal Bell support from a teammate if you have nothing else to sponge status; that way you can still spread status and recover instantly without being pressured to stay in by Rest. Since many teams run counters built mainly around defeating King, it is often forced to switch out in an attempt for its teammates to kill of the counter. This is what it does best, acting as a defensive pivot, and being forced to switch out while asleep can disrupt the ease of switching it in and statusing / healing up for the rest of the game, which is ultimately Slowking's main job beyond sponging hits.

    Hi Jump Kick Emboar... I suppose it could have its merits. You could run a Choice Scarf set and blitz multiple enemies in a row late-game, and you could 2HKO an enemy without worrying about being KOed by a neutral attack that would normally KO you at -1 Defense. Beyond that, consequences are extremely severe when you miss or use it on a Ghost switching in. With Superpower, you never miss and if a Ghost is brought in the worst that happens is you switch out unharmed and they get a free turn. With HJK, you not only leave the opponent untouched on a miss but your health is mutilated, making Wish Support pretty mandatory if you want to keep on the safe side. I understand this is a common issue for HJK, but Emboar at 50% is much easier to revenge for faster scarfers or strong priority users, and if you're running CB it pretty much means any offensive poke that out speeds you (read: common) can pick you off with a neutral, decently strong attack. Not enough of a reason to use it over Superpower IMO; it's designed to decimate things with a strong move then switch out, and Superpower does that just fine 99% of the time!

    Baton Pass Drapion looks deadly. Baton Pass is kind of rare in the tier, and even those who can pass boosts are pretty darned frail (Absol, Scyther). Drapion could set up on something like Rotom as it switches out, or something whose attacks it can sponge, then pass out of a counter like Poliwrath into something that could use with an attack bonus. Qwilfish and Sceptile come to mind, as even though Sceptile can run SD itself you could easily bring it into a resisted water attack and proceed with an all-out attacking set to shred the opponent as they attempt to switch into a wall. Even more fun; you could BP a Swords Dance to Hitmonlee and Fake Out for Unburden, then sweep at +2 Atk and Speed! As a side note, Baton Pass could heavily ease on prediction and lure out counters like Rhydon, where you could just bring in Rotom-C or something for easy momentum. I agree, this could probably boost Drapions popularity quite a bit!

    Flamethrower / Fire Blast on Mesprit would give it stupidly good coverage, letting it tear stuff like Ferroseed, Magneton and Esca, the latter two of the three often giving Mesprit trouble previously. Furthermore, it could ditch Thunderbolt or Ice Beam on the CM set to have a good shot at beating one of its most lethal counters, tomb:

    252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Spiritomb: 136-161 (44.88 - 53.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Assuming Shadow Sneak doesn't roll absolute max and you don't have SR on your side of the field, you can actually beat Tomb by subbing on the switch and then smacking it with Fire Blast. Aside from the Tomb aspect, you can run BoltBeam + Fire Blast, and deal with everything in the tier at least neutrally barring only Lanturn, letting you wreak havoc at +1 or higher.

    Still, Mesprit suffers from Four Moveslot syndrome. In order to run CM it would need to remove one of Psychic STAB, Tbolt, Ice Beam or Fire Blast, either damaging its coverage or removing its lone STAB. Likewise, if it wants to run Fire Blast on Choice it's the same problem, with Trick / U-turn being the Moveslot Fire Blast would go in (which is a shame, because they have great utility). Ditching your Psychic STAB on the CM set also means you're walled to hell and back by the increasingly popular Lanturn, which you could normally 2HKO with Psyshock at +1.

    This theorymonning stuff is great fun to put time into while I'm out on my iPad. Keep up the What If's, guys! 8)
  2. vyomov

    vyomov

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    This is controversial:
    What if Mew dropped to RU?
    I honestly think this would be plain broken. With Mew's movepool, nothing can really counter it, and with such amazing stats across the board, it would be VERY difficult to beat. I can almost immediately see Scolipede rising in usage as one of the few mons that can outspeed and beat, as would Accelgor.
    Even so, with his coverage, this would be plain broken. In all probability, Mew would move back up within a week, ride the wave and go straight to OU :)
  3. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Why would you suggest something that is not only unfeasible (8.2% usage and was at one point an UU suspect), but also something you think would be broken?

    I promised to edit my post so that's what I have done.

    Glare Steelix
    [​IMG]

    OK, Steelix with Glare is actually something... I wouldn't really be that interested in, and there are a few reasons.

    As someone who uses Steelix a lot, Steelix has a lot of moves that I really think are just, plain and simple, necessary. Stealth Rock / Gyro Ball / Earthquake / Roar is what I always run, and it is a very useful way to use Steelix. Set up Stealth Rock on half the tier that it walls, use Gyro Ball on the fast offensive stuff, use Earthquake on everything that is weak to it and give it a way to scare off Pokemon such as Magmortar, and Roar phazes physical sweepers that aren't named Swords Dance Gallade. Glare is really, really hard to fit onto Steelix because of how much you can lose out on if you decide to skip one of the other moves. Maybe if it is not using Stealth Rock because there is something else on the team that has it, then maybe Steelix can function as a bulky phazer, with Stealth Rock being eschewed for Glare, but even then, that accuracy is incredibly annoying. In addition, Ground-types aren't that common in RU, so that advantage of having Glare be able to hit the Pokemon of this type wouldn't be that useful.

    The problems don't stop there, however. I have always never used Thunder Wave on Ferrothorn alongside Gyro Ball in OU because a Paralyzed Pokemon takes less damage than normal from Gyro Ball (which is a really strong move against fast Pokemon, generally having 150 Base Power!), and Steelix is a very similar case. If you paralyzed, for example, a Choice Scarfed Pokemon or Pokemon that is a Jolly Durant or faster, it then takes a bit longer to take down as it is 1. still faster than you and 2. is hit way less hard by Gyro Ball. You could get rid of Gyro Ball to prevent this, but having Earthquake as your only move is generally an awful idea.

    Overall, Glare Steelix would be pretty situational, and it would not be something that I would use very often, and probably wouldn't shake up the metagame too much. For example, Glaring a Durant is helpful to try and stop it, but phazing isn't too bad of an idea either if Durant has decided to set up.
  4. vyomov

    vyomov

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    OK, this is interesting but by no means broken:
    What if Accelgor got Volt Switch?
    It would make Accelgor an even better lead by scouting threats with Volt Switch and gaining momentum. It also means mons like Moltres who commonly switch in can be damaged with Volt Switch and taken out by the switch in.
    VoltTurn cores would be much more common and consequently, ground types would be better leads to beat out Accelgor.
    Speaking of which...
    What if Escavalier got U-turn?
    If Escavalier has got one disadvantage, it's that fire types can easily switch in and get a free set up turn. Not so anymore with U-turn. Fire types looking to switch in and set up like Emboar instead find themselves losing momentum as cavalier switches out for the appropriate counter. It would make Escavalier much more capable of sweeping in RU. More mons would start running HP Fire just to beat Escavalier.
  5. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    Volt Switch Accelgor: I'm not sure it will do that much for him, since it doesn't really add any coverage for him and he can already use U-Turn if he really wants to scout (although he will hit switch-ins slightly harder). That said, Forretress often runs Volt Switch in OU, so its possible that it could see use on Accelgor as well. On the topic of VoltTurn, Accelgor could be decent as a Volt Switch user since it can reliably beat Ground-types that would try and switch-in to typical Volt Switch users, meaning its practically guaranteed to preserve momentum when using the move. The problem is that it shares weaknesses to common Volt-Turn users like Galvantula and Scyther, which can make it somewhat difficult to fit in. Speaking of which, Galvantula would give Accelgor major competition as a Volt Switch user, since its still pretty fast, gets STAB on Volt Switch, has Compoundeyes Thunder and can still hit Ground-types with Giga Drain.

    Roar Slowking: Agreeing with Shame That in that it's not too big of a boon. It can make people think twice of setting up a Sub on it if you are purely focusing on phazing, since Dragon Tail is laughably weak (for example, Dragon Tail on standard defensive Slowking only has a 6.25% chance of breaking a 252 HP/0 Def Druddigon's Substitutes if it were to use one, and can only 3-hit shitty SubSeed Whimsicott's Substitutes). Other than that, as a bulky water for Hail teams it receives competition from Poliwrath and Qwilfish regardless if it has Roar, specifically Qwilfish, who has greater physical bulk with Intimidate and better typing (it shares the Fire and Fighting resists, while Slowking has 5 weaknesses to cover vs. Qwilfish's 3). One nitpick with your set: change the EV spread to max HP, it gives him better overall bulk. For example, a 252 HP/208 Def/48 SpD with the same nature would give you the same special bulk with significantly more physical bulk (not saying its the best spread, but still an improvement over max defenses).

    HJK Emboar: As it stands now (as in, without Reckless) Emboar would certainly appreciate a better Fighting-type STAB over Superpower. Close Combat actually makes more sense for him than HJK imo, but their effect on Emboar is basically the same. Not decreasing his attack because of Superpower would allow him to handle threats like Lanturn, Entei, Druddigon, and Rhydon with more certainty if he predicts right. In the case of Close Combat, he could gain a bit of longevity due to not being worn down by all that recoil, which would come in handy against stuff like Hitmonlee, Cryogonal, and Klinklang, who are OHKOed by both, but Flare Blitz would probably beat the next guy as well. He still operates mostly the same as he does now, and bulky Waters like Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Alomomola are still the best bets, since even with Wild Charge they're only 3HKOed on a clean field.

    Baton Pass Drapion: He would certainly find some use for it, as there are plenty of Pokemon who would enjoy being able to run All-Out sets while retaining the benefits of Swords Dance (Absol and Zangoose come to mind for me). He would probably run it with SD/Baton Pass/Crunch/EQ or Poison Jab, although Whirlwind is an interesting option in the 4th slot for a Supportive Baton Pass set, since his decent speed allows him to phaze Pokemon like Poliwrath and Steelix who would try and phaze the boosts (and could also break through Taunt), virtually guaranteeing a successful Baton Pass. Shame That also brought up a great point of using it to lure out counters, almost like a no damage U-Turn. Not as useful as on say Celebi in OU, but still could be useful.

    Flamethrower/Fire Blast Mesprit: Regardless of which one he got, he would get better coverage running it over Ice Beam, so it would become the primary option on offensive sets. Many of the Pokemon who Mesprit would use Ice Beam against were Grass-types like Rotom-C, who are hit just as hard by Flamethrower, or certain Steel-types such as Steelix and Ferroseed who are now hit harder by Flamethrower. Druddigon is one of the few Pokemon who could do a better job of checking Mesprit by the switch. There really isn't much else that really is lost from the switch from Ice Beam to Flamethrower. Rhydon can now switch in on the Calm Mind, survive the hit, and OHKO back with Megahorn after 1 round of Life Orb recoil. It probably can't switch in reliably on the Specs set though. The only other Pokemon who really improves vs. Mesprit losing Ice Beam is Sandslash, but he isn't hitting that hard back.

    One new question to add, kinda going off one that I just answered:
    What if Reckless Emboar was released?
    This, imo, would be a bigger boon to Emboar than a better Fighting move, since it gives him a significant boost to Flare Blitz (216 BP after STAB) and Wild Charge (now 108 BP). This means that the bulky waters are worn down just a little bit faster, and Pokemon like Slowking are no longer reliable checks. I looked at this without the HJK, but feel free to combine the two questions if you want.
  6. vyomov

    vyomov

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    While Reckless might give more attacking power, at the same time Emboar will only be taking more recoil, so it kind of trades off because with the excess recoil a lot of 2HKOes will become OHKOes vs Emboar.
    Speaking of recoil...
    What if Rampardos got Rock Head?
    I imagine this would make it RU instantly, at a Choice Scarf set could just hit Rock Head and proceed to Spam until a miss and it could take out 2-3 mons who don't resist with ease. A Choice Band set would be just plain deadly. At the same times mons who outspeed and OHKO will be much more popular, but flying types will start to decrease in popularity simply because Rampardos OHKOes any flying type post SR.
  7. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas NIPPLE BLADES OF FURY
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    What if Rampardos got Rock Head?

    While Rampardos would be better than it was before, I don't think think it would be instantly RU, or even necessarily more used. Rampardos's main problem is a base 58 Speed, which is lower than every scarfer in the tier. Jolly Scarf Rampardos is still oustsped by positive nature Cinccino and Sceptile as well as neutral nature Aeordactyl and Accelgor (all 1HKO). Easily revenged killed would be an accurate description of Rampardos. Its 97/60/50 defenses mean that it can barely take a strong neutral STAB. Rampardos still faces trouble from rock resisting physical walls like Steelix (2.17% to 3HKO), Ferroseed (4HKO if not locked into Fire punch, only 2HKO if locked into Fire Punch), and Poliwrath (3HKO if locked into Zen Headbutt). But if Rampardos got this ability maybe Poliwrath would start seeing the usage it deserves :P
  8. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Yeah, but if one can manage to give Rampardos a Hone Claws and a Agility boost(difficult but not IMPOSSIBLE) Rampardos can sweep the whole tier with a Rock Head LO set with Aqua Tail, Head Smash, Zen Headbutt and Fire Punch :)
  9. NfskMjmMal

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    That doesn't make it viable in RU though. Rampardos has a ton of potential, sure, but it requires a ton of support. Because of how Rampardos functions, it's "OHKO or be OHKOd" basically. The problem, as was mentioned earlier, is that it's so easy to revenge kill. You're very adamant about Rampardos's insane sweeping potential. You should try a Baton Pass team and see how it goes.
  10. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Ya, except for the fact that this is all theorymonning so I can't exactly try it out :(
  11. NfskMjmMal

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    My point was you'll run into other problems besides taking recoil from Head Smash. I don't think it's feasible to reliably pass off that many boosts.
  12. sparktrain

    sparktrain

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    Ninjask can run hone claws/sub/protect and whatnot and baton pass attack, accuracy, and speed boosts to Rampardos. However, they're both NU for a reason, as they each have their own flaws. Ninjask has its own problems with stealth rock, ice shard, rock blast, etc... and even if you do manage to pull off the baton pass, Rampardos has trouble coming in due to its overall frailness, entry hazards, and susceptibility to priority. It is possible to pull off this setup, but it's stopped too easily for the strategy to be viable.
  13. Explorer

    Explorer

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    You could try hosting tournaments or something. I wish there was a way to test these theories in battle.

    What if Accelgor got Volt Switch? Accelgor would become a much better pivot since it could switch to a tank, wall, phazer, sweeper, whatever. It is also a decent hit on Flying types without using HP Rock, such as Aerodactyl, Archeops, and Swellow (it out speeds all of them too).

    I see one set being the following, with an offensive mindset:

    Accelgor (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    -Bug Buzz
    -Volt Switch
    -Focus Blast
    -Hidden Power Fire

    Bug Buzz is the best STAB out there for Accelgor, and is used on like 99.9% of all Accelgor sets. Volt Switch is the aforementioned pivot move. Focus Blast is to get a great hit on Pokemon such as Regirock, Bastiodon, and Aggron, making Cinccino a great partner for this Accelgor, as it struggles with the aforementioned Pokemon. Hidden Power Fire is basically exclusively for Escavalier and Ferroseed, however arguments could be made to run HP Ice or Giga Drain instead. The Life Orb gives Accelgor some welcome power, as Accelgor's Special Attack, while good, is not superior.

    Overall, Accelgor would rise in popularity since it can now partake in VoltTurn cores, particularly with Lanturn, who has great synergy with it.
  14. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    I know this Pokemon has a lot of usage in UU at the moment, even earning itself a spot in the top 20, but there was a time where this Pokemon used to be RU, and i genuinely wonder how it would fare in the current metagame.

    So, What if Gligar dropped back to RU/never moved up?

    [​IMG]

    Gligar was quite the defensive threat when it was usable in the RU tier, coming equipped with massive physical bulk with Eviolite factored in, an immunity to Toxic and Spikes, Reliable recovery in Roost, and a great support movepool with cool things such as Stealth Rock, Taunt, Toxic, U-turn, and Baton Pass. Off the top of my head, i think Hitmonlee would definitely decrease in usage with Gligar around, its pretty much an 100% counter to it, and unlike things like Uxie, Gligar has access to reliable recovery and doesn't have a weakness to Pursuit, making it harder to remove with team support compared to other Hitmonlee counters currently in the tier. Escavalier might decrease in usage with Gligar around as well, even Choice Band Escavalier can barely muster a 3HKO on Gligar with Iron Head after Stealth Rock damage, and because of Gligar's access to reliable recovery, it can fully stop Escavalier throughout the entirety of the match unlike other Escav checks such as Steelix and Qwilfish. Outside of these two, Gligar matches up well against many of the other physical attackers in the tier, including Absol, Druddigon (can potentially 2HKO with CB Outrage, but Gligar can simply roost stall because of a higher Speed stat), Aggron (same as Druddigon, except roosting makes it resistant to Head Smash for one turn as well), Rhydon, Aerodactyl, Bouffalant, Tauros, and Scarf Emboar. On the other hand, though, Gligar does have a few flaws that might prevent it from being a top tier threat, such as a relatively low offensive presence, and vulnerability to two somewhat common types: Water and Ice. Nevertheless, i think Gligar would be a really cool addition to the metagame, and i'd love to see how it'd perform into the RU meta at the moment.

    Gligar Calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Fighting Gem Hitmonlee Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 71-84 (21.25 - 25.14%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 103-123 (30.83 - 36.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 77-91 (23.05 - 27.24%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 94-112 (28.14 - 33.53%) -- 97.66% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 142-168 (42.51 - 50.29%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 75-91 (22.45 - 27.24%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 168-198 (50.29 - 59.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar after a Roost: 84-99 (25.14 - 29.64%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 135-159 (40.41 - 47.6%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 84-100 (25.14 - 29.94%) -- 2.17% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 87-103 (26.04 - 30.83%) -- 16.21% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 90-106 (26.94 - 31.73%) -- 55.42% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 97-114 (29.04 - 34.13%) -- 99.95% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 88-105 (26.34 - 31.43%) -- 36.52% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock




    So what do you think? how would Gligar perform in the current RU meta, and if at all, how would it affect the metagame?
  15. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Screw Water Druddigon
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    What if Gligar were RU?

    Gligar would become an excellent physical wall, sporting great physical bulk allowing it to take on a lot of physical threats in the tier. Hitmonlee would definitely decrease in usage, as would other physical attackers, and Roost along with decent Speed make him a bitch to take down when played properly, as he can Roost spam. He can also serve as an effective SR lead, while U-turn can sometimes keep your momentum intact! Munchlax could also be somewhat better with Gligar around, since they have good defensive synergy and can take on physical and special hits, respectively. He can take on many physical attackers, and I'd expect Hitmonlee to fall, while Medicham and Hitmonchan (and Gallade too I guess) will be running Ice Punch more often, while Absol would run Ice Beam a lot more. Gligar would definitely make for a strong defensive threat in RU.

    What if Cofagrigus were RU?

    Oh Cofagrigus, how I miss thee. Cofagrigus would make a top threat in RU, especially with OTR. OTR Cofagrigus would make a deadly sweeper, with Shadow Ball+HP Fighting to sweep teams with ease, especially after a Nasty Plot boost, and stop shit cold. He would make a great spinblocker, stopping all spinners and taking advantage of hazards to sweep. He also makes a great physical wall, with Will-O-Wisp and Haze making it vital to stall. Cryogonal would see a rise to counter Cofagrigus, as would Drapion. Overall Cofagrigus would be a powerful force if it were back in RU.

    FREE COFAGRIGUS

    What if Honchkrow were RU?

    Honchkrow would be powerful and meta defining imo. MoxieCrow has great coverage in Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, and Superpower, while it is hard to revenge kill thanks to Sucker Punch. it can break TanKing cores while using MixKrow to break Steelix and Rhydon. It has a lot going for it and can be a top tier sweeper. It would definitely be a top notch threat in RU.
  16. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Well considering it's decently close to the boundary,
    What if Houndoom dropped to RU?
    Houndoom would be VERY powerful. A Nasty Plot set would scare the broad daylights out of stuff. However, it definitely won't be broken.
    Druddigon can simply pound Houndoom to death.
    Alomomola would be RU just to wall this thing to death, particularly considering Houndoom's defenses are nowhere near legendary.
    Mons like Sceptile might try weird sets like Unburden Water Gem HP Water to beat this thing, but I see this being healthy for the tier.
  17. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    This is an interesting topic that i brought up in #rarelyused yesterday because of an event that was coming out in japan today (sadly it didn't have the ability ;-;), and i just wanted to bring the topic here to get a little more discussion out of it.


    So, what if Contrary Serperior was released in RU?

    [​IMG]

    I think Contrary Serperior would definitely cement itself as a top offensive threat in RU, i mean, it may only have base 75 Special Attack, but with Contrary serperior basically has the equivalent of a 140 BP STAB Nasty Plot, which is an incredibly deadly tool on any Pokemon (except on like Sudowoodo lol). Sceptile would almost definitely decrease in usage with Serperior around in my opinion, Contrary Serp would probably leave Sceptile's special set in the dust tbh, and i think i'd probably only end up using Sceppy's physical and mixed sets in a Serperior metagame. Certain bulky Water-types such as Lanturn and Qwilfish might decrease in usage as well, given Serperior can switch in on them pretty safely and start up its Leaf Storm shenanigans. As for potential checks/Pokemon that would increase in usage, Amoonguss would probably rise up quite a bit, it 4x resists Leaf Storm, has the bulk to take a +2 Hidden Power Fire, and can cripple Serperior in return with Spore or Sludge Bomb. Amoonguss even has Regenerator so it can passively recover HP to repeatedly check the snake. Roselia's in a similar boat to Amoonguss, although it doesn't have Regenerator like the Mushroom does, making it slightly shakier. Usage of Sap Sippers such as Bouffalant and Miltank would definitely rise as well, being the only things that could completely prevent Serperior from getting a Leaf Storm boost, they'd be quite useful in the Serp metagame, especially on more offensive teams where things like Roselia and Amoonguss wouldn't fit well. Choice Scarf Emboar might see a rise in usage too, as it can switch in on a +0 Serperior Leaf Storm at least once, outspeed, and OHKO in return with Flare Blitz. Outside of these Pokemon, i think Serperior would be pretty hard to handle outside of revenge killing it, although there might be some more checks out there that you could think of! Lastly, here are two Example Serperior sets that i think would be quite common in the metagame for you guys to look at :).

    Serp Sets (open)
    [​IMG]
    Serperior @ Life Orb
    Trait: Contrary
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    [​IMG]
    Serperior @ Leftovers
    Trait: Contrary
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    - Leaf Storm
    - Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Rock


    So how do you think Contrary Serperior would affect the metagame during its stay in RU (it was solid OU in DW, so i'd expect it to move up a tier or two after a while tbh), what Pokemon would increase in usage, and what Pokemon would fade away? what sets would you use on it? and what teammates would you use along with it? What would check the snake, and overall, how managaeable do you think it'd be in the tier?
  18. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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  19. Magolor

    Magolor

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    Dream World Serperior getting released:

    It would change the metagame for sure. It would be a pokemon that everyone will be forced to have a counter for. With great speed, the potential to go +6 easily and a drawbackless base 140 STAB walling it will be tricky. Serperior would probably be used as a late game sweeper, with its teammates paralysing faster enemies, breaking down walls, and killing serp's counters. I imagine that the Life Orb set would be the main set, with Choice Scarf being Kinda crappy due to the fact that despite the spammy nature of Leaf Storm, the coverage moves will not get the boosts and then Serp will have to hit grass absorbers with his subpar base 75 spa.

    Which will lead to his biggest (And only large?) Flaw, without those boosts, Serperior is pretty shit offensively. Miltank and Bouffalant would rise in popularity as the best way to stop Serp leaf storming your team to death (Sawsbuck would have to worry about HP Fire but it still might be decent at stopping him.) As will 4x Grass resists that don't mind a HP fire. Amoonguss will probably be the best stop as it could tank a +2 HP fire and retaliate with Spore. Bulky Moltres is in a similar boat, with the boon of being able to fire blast it, but sets with Hidden Power Rock will decimate it and SR would make it a lot easier for serp to handle. Choice Scarf Emboar would also be rather popular, as with many fire types that can viably run a scarf. I guess Ice Shard would revenge kill him but there aren't that any really good users of it in RU. However, I don't imagine it would last long before he moves to UU.
  20. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    Contrary Serperior: Unfortunately, this guy was top 20 in DW OU in June 2012, the last big month those stats were taken. Even if he couldn't keep up with the new BW2 threats, or just declined with age, I see him going to at least UU instantly unless it's released in the middle of June/September. That said, I don't think he would be broken, since Sap Sippers, who are pretty good in RU in their own right, pretty much destroy him. The key is the fact that Serperior can't gain the Special Attack boost when they switch in. Bouffalant can even run a very niche specially defensive spread to creates Subs Serperior can't break unless he carries Hidden Power Fighting, and still OHKO with Megahorn thanks to the Sap Sipper boost. Sawsbuck can tank a +0 Hidden Power Fire and OHKO at +1 with Double-Edge. Moltres would also even better, 4x resisting Leaf Storm and being able to take the following Dragon Pulse while OHKOing with Fire Blast. These guys all get better if he uses the SubSeed set, which was by far the most common set as of a year ago (but that was OU). And if worst comes to worst, he can be revenge killed, despite his decent bulk. Swellow and Accelgor both outspeed and OHKO with their STABs, while just about any Scarfer with a STAB super-effective move will do the job as well. With all this said, he'll still be a top threat, since his bulk allows for good switch-in opportunities, and his great speed (1 higher than Scolipede) basically forces you to run a Scarfer or something over 115 to beat him.

    Nostalgia Time!

    Gligar: Great physical wall, being incredibly hard to wear down thanks to Roost and Eviolite. I could see him being a great boon to Hail teams, as although he doesn't have Leftovers or Overcoat to combat the residual damage, he still has Roost, and has pretty dang good defensive synergy with Walrein. Despite low Attack, he can still hit Fire (bar Moltres), Rock (bar Aero/Archeops), and Steel-types super effectively with Earthquake, opening the door for Pokemon like Rotom-F to clean up. He also resists Fighting, allowing Hail teams to take on threats like Gallade, Medicham, and Hitmonlee that much better. Not to mention he has U-Turn to escape from unfavorable situations. While he is a great partner for Hail, Hail teams are also possibly the easiest answer for Gligar. Even with Eviolite, his Special Defense is kind of meh, so Blizzspam will tear him to shreds. Bulky waters, which also find their way onto Hail teams often, don't mind Earthquake and can hit back with Scald, they just have to watch out for Toxic. Poliwrath gets special mention for not minding Toxic thanks to Rest, and despite being weak to it, Qwilfish won't take much from Earthquake and is immune to Toxic as well.

    Honchkrow: This guy was at the top of RU's usage before he left, and with Heat Wave and Superpower legal with Moxie now, there's no reason to think he wouldn't go right back. Even without a Moxie boost, he can still 2HKO every common Pokemon in RU bar Alomomola, Regirock, Rhydon, and maybe Qwilfish with a Life Orb and 4 attacks. Forgoing Heat Wave for a Sub or Roost would only really add Steelix to that list, while easing prediction or healing Life Orb and Brave Bird recoil. Roost would probably be the primary option in the 4th slot. Oh yeah, and Stunfisk is still pretty good against him iirc, so he might rise a bit.

    Cofagrigus: This guy was actually #1 for a while before the guys in UU realized his potential. Given how many of the best Pokemon in the tier are slow, his OTR set would be just as good as it was back then, and can even be used to support teammates like Escavalier and Druddigon if needed. Clefable would also rise as a teammate, being able to heal offensive variants with Wish and maintaining decent synergy. Defensive Cofagrigus would be a great boon to stall teams, serving as a nice spinblocker. It may finally make Dusknoir drop to NU. I should note that he is 2HKOed through burn by +2 Kabutops (assuming he SDs as you switch in). Mandibuzz would actually be useful again since it completely shuts Offensive Cofag down. Spiritomb would also be decent, being able to take a boosted Shadow Ball and Trick a crippling Choice Band over.

    Sharpedo: Dittocrow gave a passing mention to him a couple pages ago, and since he qualifies I'll list him as well. He's still almost as threatening as he was when he moved up, although the lack of Claydol for free set-up (as in, attack the switch in and Protect next for an easy +2) hurts him a little bit. I'm not sure he'd like Hail too much since all that passive damage would really add up, putting him on a major timer. Also, the rising Alomomola is a hard counter, slowly wearing him down with all kinds of passive damage/occasional Waterfall, and can heal off any single attack with just Regenerator. Ferroseed, Tangrowth, and Poliwrath would all rise since they're still great counters (Tangrowth has to watch out for the rare Ice Beam though). That said, he'd still be one of the best cleaners in the tier, only really fearing Mach Punch from the Hitmons for revenge killing, as many Scarfers have to switch in on a Protect for Sharpedo not to outspeed them. Speaking of which, the Hitmons would both rise as well.
  21. Explorer

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    I also wish there was a testing ladder to experiment with these changes.

    What if Rampardos got Rock Head? For the Choice Scarf set, anything that it outspeeds will most likely be OHKOd due to Head Smash's sheer power, bar 4x resists like Steelix, but Earthquake/Fire Punch helps to handle that. However, Rampardos's defenses are terrible, meaning various Choice Scarf Pokemon, such as Typhlosion and Galvantula with Grass moves, Medicham, Hitmonlee, Emboar, etc. can destroy it. Using a LO set with Tailwind support would make it even faster and stronger, but this requires more support. I question if Rampardos would be banned from NU because of its frailty and slowness.

    The other option is to use Trick Room and a set like Head Smash/Earthquake/Zen Headbutt/Fire Punch with a Brave nature and 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpD and 0 Speed IVs. However this is still team support.
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Screw Water Druddigon
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    What if Contrary Serperior were released?

    Well, firstly, I don't really see Serp being RU legal for long after he gets Contrary, so that's that. As for how he would do, he would definitely become a greater threat than ever, as he can spam Leaf Storm and get a pseudo Nasty Plot boost that allows him to pose an even greater threat. He can come in on Kabutops and get a free Leaf Storm to boost his power, and can go for a combination of HP Fire and Dragon Pulse to make sure Druddigon and Escavalier are no threat to the snake. He also has a nice Speed tier, outpacing the speedy Scolipede by a single point, which is a plus. He would definitely pose a greater threat in RU whilst he lasts.

    What if Sharpedo were RU?

    Seeing as he is already one of UU's best sweepers, Sharpedo would definitely be a top-tier threat in RU, grabbing a Speed Boost with Protect and speeding up to make sure nothing outpaces him. He has excellent Water / Dark coverage, and has great offensive stats, allowing him to run mixed, which is hard to wall, as well as outright physical or even special. He will be really difficult to wall and his Speed will make him a top threat. As for what will rise in usage, I could see Ferroseed and Poliwrath seeing a great rise in usage, as they are Sharpedo's only true counters, and they can annoy him to death. Hitmonchan will also see a good rise in usage and become more useful once more, using his mighty Mach Punch to quickly end Sharpedo's reign of terror. Sash variants of Scolipede will also see use, to survive a hit from Sharpedo and kill it off with Megahorn. Overall Sharpedo should easily become a top threat in UU (it would be guaranteed S-Rank on the viability thread imo)

    Oughtta keep the discussion going so:

    What if Cobalion dropped to RU?
  23. Explorer

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    What if Cobalion came to RU? Cobalion's stats are amazing, and it is very hard to take down on the physical side without Close Combat defense drops. Overall it would be a major threat to much of the metagame, especially hail teams, where Cobalion resists Blizzard, can run Stealth Rock, and kill off many Pokemon common on hail teams with Iron Head or Close Combat.

    Cobalion also has great defensive synergy with Altaria, as Cobalion resists all of Altaria's weaknesses, and Altaria resists two of Cobalion's weaknesses and is immune to the other. In particular Altaria could force switches with Perish Song. Here is the combination I see:

    Cobalion @ Leftovers
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spe
    Nature: Naive
    -Stealth Rock
    -Close Combat
    -Volt Switch
    -Thunder Wave

    Altaria (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP/4 SpA/252 SpD
    Nature: Calm
    -Perish Song
    -Roost
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Fire Blast

    These two support each other very well, and make a great two-Pokemon defensive core. Having hazards and status together is already very helpful, especially when many switches are involved. Altaria can tank special attacks forever and heal off damage with Roost, while having great two-move coverage with Dragon Pulse and Fire Blast. Cobalion's Close Combat is powerful even with very little investment, and it can Volt Switch away the next turn to remove defense drops, and maybe force a switch and more hazard damage.
  24. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    What if Rotom got Prankster? (note that i'm just talking about regular rotom here, rotom-c, rotom-s, and rotom-f are not included in this discussion.

    [​IMG]

    Prankster makes a lot of sense on Rotom because of its affinity for using its ability to possess Electronic devices to pull practical jokes, so this isn't too unrealistic despite the fact that very few Pokemon with Levitate end up with Dream World abilities. Anyways, i could see Prankster Rotom being quite the annoying Pokemon in RU, it comes equipped with a movepool that seems perfectly tailored to the role on paper in fact, with status moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Toxic and Thunder Wave, Trick, Pain Split, Substitute, and even Volt Switch to get itself out in unfavorable situations while providing it with a reliable STAB move to use outside of its prankster shenanigans. I personally think that Bulky Rotom would become much more popular with the addition of prankster, as Rotom could utilize its great typing that much more effectively with the ability to use Priority Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split to block the opponent, Priority Thunder Wave would be a great option on the defensive set, too. Subsplit would also get a small buff too, allowing it to set up substitutes to block attacks and status moves it normally wouldn't be able to. Choice Scarf Rotom could even benefit from prankster, as a fast Trick that can even catch boosted opponents off guard is never a bad thing. On the downside, though, Prankster would mean that Rotom would lose Levitate, giving it a weakness to Ground-type moves instead of an immunity to them, which could be quite annoying at times i guess :/. Regardless, i think Prankster Rotom would be pretty cool if it got it, but what do you guys think?
  25. Explorer

    Explorer

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    I love this theory since it is true to Rotom's character and would obviously help it. Now I must make the obvious comparison to Sableye. Sableye has Recover (more reliable than Pain Split) and no weaknesses, but Rotom has Thunder Wave and better stats. Would Sableye still outclass Rotom? Please discuss this!

    What if Honchkrow returned to RU? Honchkrow was a very dangerous threat in RU before moving up to UU. It has two STABs that give it great neutral coverage and a great base attack to use, plus a variety of coverage moves, most notably Heat Wave and Superpower. Honchkrow would become a common cleaner in RU once again, cleaning up destruction left by other heavy hitters, such as CB Emboar, CB Druddigon, Dragon Dance Feraligatr, and the occasional Rock Polish Torterra, due to Sucker Punch and Moxie letting it "snowball" boosts much like Salamence in OU.

    Honchkrow might also lead to the rise of hazard users in the tier because it appreciates the extra damage to get Moxie boosts more easily. In particular, Ferroseed synergizes with Honchkrow very well defensively, and it can carry more than one type of hazard. Also, Rapid Spin support is appreciated since Honchkrow is weak to Stealth Rock and often carries a Life Orb, so Cryogonal and Kabutops are both good spinners, but be sure to patch up the common type weakness.

    What if Magmortar got Dragon Dance?

    This fixed Magmortar's speed without Dragon Dance, and bolsters Flare Blitz, Thunderpunch, Cross Chop, and Earthquake. This obviously makes it more viable to run a physical set, or even a mixed set (Dragon Dance/Flare Blitz/Earthquake/HP Grass), but does Magmortar have time to set up? Only if it can force a switch (i.e. it switches into Cryogonal when it uses Recover). Would DD sets see much use? Discuss this!

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