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Steelix at #35, I'm still wondering what this guy does outside of Stealth rock and Roar, maybe A torment set with it's resistances, and 4 weaknesses being water, fire ground and fighting.
Steelix can also Dragon Tail, if you're into that damaging phazing. It's Earthquake is decently powerful, and (although nearly everything can do it) Toxic can really annoy some of its switch-ins.
Sudowoodo, while rarely seen and full of surprise factor as a stone tree should be, gets some tough competition from the other Rock types...
I've used Steelix briefly near the beginning of RU, but found it a bit clumsy to use. On paper though, I might see why Steelix is that unpopular, if ranking 35 can even be considered unpopular.
With the exception of Cresselia (who, even with a calm mind set, can't really do a lot with Steelix), Every pokemon on this list can hit back on poor Steelix miserable special defense stat hard, or hit with a super effective, soul-piercing strike. But is this a side effect of building teams to react to threats, or does Steelix get swept off its feet? Using the most overwhelmingly offensive sets on hand (max EVs in the relevant attack stat as appropriate) with the exception of Blastoise, Cresellia, and Honchkrow, lets take a look/see at some of the potential threats. (Note: I am not including setting up, or the damage after a set up, and instead assuming that the opposing pokemon won't attempt to set up on a very infamous roar phazer.)
Likewise, apologies with the formatting.
Vs Sassy Leftovers Steelix, EV 252 HP, 4 Attack, 252 Spec Def
Modest Specs Yanmega with Bug Buzz = 59.6% - 70.3%
Bold Cresselia with Ice Beam = 14.1% - 16.9%
Naughty Life Orb Honchkrow with Heat Wave = 52% - 61.6%
Naughty Life Orb Sharpedo with Waterfall = 54.2% - 64.4%
Bold Blastoise with Surf = 47.5% - 56.5%
Timid Life Orb Venomoth with Bug Buzz = 39.8% - 46.9%
Modest Specs Porygon-Z with HP Fire = 68.9% - 81.4%
Adamant Life Orb Entei with Flare Blitz = 78.5% - 93.2%
Adamant Rhyperior with Earthquake = 58.2% - 69.5%
Jolly Life Orb Gallade with Close Combat = 76.3% - 89.8%
So what we can see is that Steelix can survive a hell of a lot, but just barely. The fact there are no OHKOs is fortunate, not that it would matter with Sturdy. With leftovers, Steelix avoids 2HKOs from Venomoth, Blastoise, and Cresselia. Though Venomoth would probably use Sleep Powder to assure a set up. As long as Taunt does not remain in play, Steelix can assure Stealth Rock, and can survive most of the top pokemon in this tier. Now lets see what happens if Steelix got bold, and decided to punch back.
Yanmega vs Stone Edge = 92% - 108.6%
Cresselia vs Gyro Ball = 12.2% - 14.4%
Honchkrow vs Stone Edge = 62.8% - 73.9%
Sharpedo vs Earthquake 68.1% - 80.1%
Blastoise vs Earthquake 47.5% - 56.5%
Venomoth vs Stone Edge 67.8% - 79.9%
Porygon-Z vs Gyro Ball 49.2% - 57.9%
Entei vs Earthquake 58.8% - 69.5%
Rhyperior vs Earthquake 27.6% - 32.5%
Gallade vs Gyro Ball 59.4% - 70.1%
Not that impressive, though not bad. For example, Steelix can sometimes OHKO Yanmega with Stone Edge, hitting within the 92% - 108.6%, off of a x4 weakness. That's is the only real potential OHKO on the list, though I will have to check what Entei looks like after the recoil from a Life Orb Flare Blitz. Besides, in most cases, especially on pokemon that would set up, Steelix would shuffle the pokemon around instead of attack. Or maybe toss toxic around.
As we can see, Steelix isn't necessarily bad, but RU actually got some very impressive offensive threats. Steelix's walling ability is neutered by this fact somewhat, making him a risky wall on the switch in. As such, Steelix can't really stop a team cold without some good prediction, bad prediction from the opponent, or delicate strategy. Now, with some pokemon possibly being promoted into UU from usage up there, we may see that several of the threats on this list be shifted out, giving Steelix a lot more breathing room to do what he does best.
Are you presenting a case for or against Steelix? A bit of both? Lol I'm confused!
I think kniteowl was commenting on how popular Steelix was at #35 despite it being almost absolutely useless. #35 is a very flattering position for it, outranking Munchlax, Lickilicky and Audino as well as Rhydon and Aggron. Incredible.
I'm assuming Steelix has high usage because the only useful set I can think of would be a torment set, it can be used to set up rocks, spread toxic then switch pokemon around with dragontail but there are other pokemon that can do that better so why use steelix
Set Up a Substitute on something you threaten, as they switch out then Torment your counter. Then Either Spread the love (Toxic) or hit them with your attack. Most pokemon only carry one super effective move on Steelix anyway
Choice Band Entei and Choice Specs Porygon-Z will be Struggling to hit you (:P lol), every second turn.
Yeah probably not a good set, as Yanmega doesn't care and Cresselia can wall you further with a substitute.
Venemoth doesn't care about Toxic, being a poison type and can break those subs with tinted lens bug buzz (I guess Steelix can sub twice as Venemoth tries to break your sub and if Venemoth is the standard Baton Pass set it can't do anything but either stay in and set up or switch out)
Rhyperior and Gallade would probably set up sword dance every second turn, same For Porygon-z with Nasty plot but they won't like toxic.
Blastoise can't do much except break it's subs unless it carrying Yawn.
Sharpedo, for some reason I can see it powering through with Ice beam, every second turn if it's a mixed set, physical sets could possibly do it too but i'm too lazy to do damage calculations at the moment.
Are you presenting a case for or against Steelix? A bit of both? Lol I'm confused!
I think kniteowl was commenting on how popular Steelix was at #35 despite it being almost absolutely useless. #35 is a very flattering position for it, outranking Munchlax, Lickilicky and Audino as well as Rhydon and Aggron. Incredible.
Neither, I am just stating some of the facts. I believe it is somewhat popular because of sturdy and stealth rock, as well as the security. WIth so few steel types in the tier, you have a choice of the x4 weak but ruthless Aggron, the evolite steel-types, Klinklang and... Steelix. While Aggron has face tearing power and a good set of resists, Steelix has greater defense and more stable weaknesses. It isn't useless, as it can take hits from some of the most popular pokemon in the tier. Likewise, Steelix has a long history of being a good tank, so people entering the tier has a good basis to work with. And on paper, Steelix provides lot of resists, including a x4 resist to rock. When you build a team, that can be the right resists, off the right physical defenses. While Lickilicky and Audino provide great team support, I think those resists are what are playing in its favor.
That said, how the hell is Aggron not being more popular. Rock Head + Head Smash + Rock POlish = RAAAAAAPE. Aggron was one of the most significant threats against my team. Is it because of the choice'd types with power ground and fighting attacks?
yeah rock polish aggron is pretty kool but is walled by evolite tangela and gligar, adamant aggron aqua tail does 35.3% - 41.9% to max hp max def bold gligar with evolite.
But he could Take On the top ten except Cresselia and Rhyperior, Adamant Aggron Aqua tail only does 69.1% - 81.6% to Max Hp Rhyperior with Solid Rock.
and maybe some versions of Sharpedo, some people may run unnecessary extra speed EVs... god knows why...
@ Jhang: Yeah Steelix has a better typing than Aggron but it can't really do much. The only physical Pokemon it walls (by 'wall' I mean face 1v1 and win) is Durant and Aggron walls it too. Steelix still loses to the same Pokemon that Aggron loses to, such as bulky Fighting types, most physical sweepers in general; spinners: Claydol, Blastoise; every special sweeper... While also losing to walls such as Clefable and Audino because they can Seismic Toss and heal themselves. Aggron can at least Head Smash for the OHKO if they dare try to stall him. They get almost the exact same movepool too except Aggron has Head Smash. I really fail to see what Steelix can accomplish on a team apart from setting up SR and then becoming death fodder. :/ Not an argument against you, just my thoughts on Steelix.
@ kniteowl: That Torment set looks pretty cool, and is one thing that maybe Steelix can do. Maybe the moveset should be Substitute/Torment/Curse/Dragon Tail. That way you can set up on most physical threats to make your Subs unbreakable and then start phazing for damage. If anything physical comes in they won't be able to break your Subs, and if something special comes in you can Torment and then Sub up again and continue phazing. It's not foolproof but looks workable on paper... :)
^ i borrowed the set from smogon gen 4 (it also had EVs in Att but the tier had different Threats back then), there also a torment heatran set too which is more useful.
I figured out that the Torment set is easily taken down by smart switching but the point of my set is to annoy and toxic key threats, like Entei Flare blitz + poison = early KO.
And Obviously choiced pokemon can't do anything to you but struggle to death
The Curse set... I dunno I'd have to test it out myself, it could work but I get the feeling it won't work out the way you expect it too lol.
If Aggron could use Shift Gear (though i dunno how) instead of Rock Polish, i could see it becoming a real offensive threat again.
Anyway, to the one that did the calcs for Aggorn's Aqua Tail against Gligar: Head Smash is stronger. Also, there's always Ice Punch, which can be useful against Torterra too.
Anyway, there's no one better than Steelix at Stealth Rock + Roar spam. What it accomplishes by doing that? Don't ask me.
I think Ferroseed has the same issue as Steelix, except with spikes and no roar. And is more popular. And being forced to pick between delicious leech seed or utility Stealth Rock. Which then it sets up. And then it dies. Unlike its much more popular big sister, Ferroseed has miserable offensive options. Ugh. One of the less-fun things about RU is the slim pickings on SR, RS, and Spikes options.
Speaking of slim pickings, have any you tried using Crustle or Armaldo? Both are 'blessed' with the 'wonderful' typing of Bug/Rock. Crustle has better physical bulk and Sturdy, while Armaldo has a pretty beefy attack base of 125. Crustle gets access to Spikes and Stealth Rock, while Armaldo gets Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock. If Blastoise gets popular enough in UU to become promoted up there, then it looks like we get to look at some alternative RSers*, and hell, I haven't had a bad experience with Crustle as an alternative to Ferroseed. Unlike the spiny coconut, Crustle can actually kill things.
^ Blastoise is going up, just throwing that out there.
I've tried using Crustle before, but with heavy, hard hitting special attackers I usually find little time for it to be effective.
I think Ferroseed has the same issue as Steelix, except with spikes and no roar. And is more popular. And being forced to pick between delicious leech seed or utility Stealth Rock. Which then it sets up. And then it dies. Unlike its much more popular big sister, Ferroseed has miserable offensive options. Ugh. One of the less-fun things about RU is the slim pickings on SR, RS, and Spikes options.
Speaking of slim pickings, have any you tried using Crustle or Armaldo? Both are 'blessed' with the 'wonderful' typing of Bug/Rock. Crustle has better physical bulk and Sturdy, while Armaldo has a pretty beefy attack base of 125. Crustle gets access to Spikes and Stealth Rock, while Armaldo gets Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock. If Blastoise gets popular enough in UU to become promoted up there, then it looks like we get to look at some alternative RSers*, and hell, I haven't had a bad experience with Crustle as an alternative to Ferroseed. Unlike the spiny coconut, Crustle can actually kill things.
Anyway, to the one that did the calcs for Aggorn's Aqua Tail against Gligar: Head Smash is stronger. Also, there's always Ice Punch, which can be useful against Torterra too.
Very true, my 1st instinct was to use a water/ice move.
Adamant Head Smash does 43.1% - 50.9% to Max hp max Def Bold evolite gligar.
This is quite significant as it can potentially 2hko gligar after rocks on the switch, assuming head smash doesn't miss either time as it's only 80% accurate, knowing my luck I'd miss at least once and be ohko back by gligar's EQ.
Carrying ice punch over aqua tail, maybe for gligar, tangela is hit harder by head smash anyway. Torterra is too uncommon a threat to carry ice punch though, I'd rather carry Aqua tail to hit Rhyperior though, even if I don't OHKO it I still dent it.
now let's look at Aggron's head smash vs Tangela
Adamant Head Smash does 40.4% - 47.9% to Max hp max Def Bold evolite Tangela.
Another potential 2hko after rocks on the switch with some luck, if your 2 hits do at least 88% damage total.\
Would a hone claws Aggron be effective?
[SET]
Name: Hone Claws
Move 1: Hone Claws
Move 2: Head Smash
Move 3: Iron Tail
Move 4: Aqua Tail
Item: Air Balloon / Chople Berry / Shuca Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Switch onto something you threaten, Boost with Hone Claws, depending on your counter take a hit and KO them back. Aggron can take full advantage of Hone Claws Accuracy boost with low accuracy moves.
The set above is totally walled by Water/ground and Water/fighting, Grass/steel, mainly Quagsire, Gastrodon, Poliwrath and ferroseed.
Other options: Double edge, Earthquake, Elemental Punches, Dynamic punch, Brick break, Superpower, Taunt, Stealth rock, Curse
Well a lot of options, Depends who you want to cover.
Of course, looking at UU, I just realized we might also lose Honchkrow, Cressilia, and even Umbreon next turn over. It looks like a lot of the super-powered pokemon in this tier is moving on up...
Of course, looking at UU, I just realized we might also lose Honchkrow, Cressilia, and even Umbreon next turn over. It looks like a lot of the super-powered pokemon in this tier is moving on up...
I personally feel Honchkrow, Cressilia and Yanmega are all suspects that needto banned anyway so if Honchkrow and Yanmega move up, I'm bothered by it, it just means we have less methods or countering Yanmega :(.
I haven't seen a single CM Cresselia since the first week of RU. CM variants are not hard to stop as it lacks the power to do much without a lot of boosts. It was very overhyped imo and Cresselia has much better things to be doing (such as physical wall/support). I actually think Cresselia isn't broken at all in this tier and fits in quite well. It and Claydol give each other nice competition with their relative advantages and disadvantages so I'd love to see Cresselia stay in the tier.
Yanmega on the other hand... I don't think we need to go into the whole 2HKO every special wall not named Munchlax thing again. Yanmega is the only broken Pokemon in the tier imo (and Gallade but don't tell anyone XD because I'm still using it).
I haven't seen a single CM Cresselia since the first week of RU. CM variants are not hard to stop as it lacks the power to do much without a lot of boosts. It was very overhyped imo and Cresselia has much better things to be doing (such as physical wall/support). I actually think Cresselia isn't broken at all in this tier and fits in quite well. It and Claydol give each other nice competition with their relative advantages and disadvantages so I'd love to see Cresselia stay in the tier.
Yanmega on the other hand... I don't think we need to go into the whole 2HKO every special wall not named Munchlax thing again. Yanmega is the only broken Pokemon in the tier imo (and Gallade but don't tell anyone XD because I'm still using it).
I still don't see the need of banning it. It is very weak to SR, so a hard switch in, gets revenged a lot, crippled hard by paralysis. I for once haven't had that much problem dealing with it, and also got mine stopped really hard multiple times.
Yanmega is probably the least broken of all the broken pokemon in the tier imo.
Some of the other broken pokemon are:
Venomoth
Honchkrow
Porygon-Z
Venomoth is incredibly dangerous, not so much it's actual sweeping skills but more the combination of sleep powder+quiver dance+baton pass. It pretty much has a guaranteed quiver pass thanks to that combination and can quiver pass multiple times in a game...although honestly 1 or two quiver dances passed to some huge threat is pretty much gg right there if you fail to stop it. Even if you switch to a phaser to phase the Venomoth out it's kind of obvious which pokemon is going to do that so it can simply attack. tbh I think Venomoth might be broken in UU but that's not the focus right now...
Honchkrow is another very dangerous pokemon. It's so incredibly easy for Moxie Honchkrow to pick apart a team with Pursuit or Sucker Punch then once it's (few) checks/counters are gone it easily sweeps a team. And Insomina Krow doesn't have the same checks/counters other then Rhyperior. The best way to beat Moxie Krow is to have a bunch of steel types/rhyperior on your team and...well letting Honchkrow kill itself with Brave Bird which is an unreliable way of killing it.
Porygon-Z is another extremely powerful pokemon. Choice Specs Adaptability Tri attacks coming from a base special attack of 135 is incredibly powerful. It pretty much 2HKO's the entire tier, including specially defensive Clefable, Audino and Lickilicky which Yanmega also misses out on. Munchlax isn't even a counter to it, it takes about 40% damage on the switch. And all it can do is hope it's lucky with body slam and paralyzes Porygon-Z. (And Porygon-Z still isn't defeated.) This guy isn't even frail, he can surprisingly take a strong hit or two (if he's lucky) and he still doesn't get defeated. It's also helpful that he doesn't suffer the terrible typing that Yanmega has.
Sharpedo is another pokemon that might need to be looken into, it outspeeds pretty much everything after a boost or two and not much can take it's attacks, only very bulky water types and Poliwrath are a few counters. Although luckily it is frail but it can easily rip holes in the opponent's team.
Also Xephyr, you should also put in the quiver dancers section that Venomoth can also baton pass it's boosts to other teamates.
