Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

[Miyami~~]

Decided to take Musharna for a spin:

Musharna is 100% deserving of a rise. Compared to the rest of C-, it's much easier to fit onto a team and provides a much larger niche [Thunder Wave + Healing wish is great]. I can't think of a single team that doesn't appreciate healing, and Musharna has great natural bulk and a decent ability to take full advantage of that. The only other Pokémon in the tier that can do that are Audino, Smeargle and Mega Audino, but Musharna doesn't take up a mega slot, has a better offensive typing, and much better stats than the other three. Musharna should Rise to C, and I could even see it going to C+ Eventually.

 

[aurora]

Sharpedo is absolutely deserving of S rank thanks to its crazy versatility and ability to completely fuck over offensive teams. Sharpedo's versatility, which lies in its ability to run either a physical, special, or even mixed set if you are daring enough, makes it extremely difficult to check when it has not revealed its set. Something will normally die or take a good chunk of damage once you switch Sharpedo in. Hitmontop, for instance, which is becoming more popular as a spinner thanks to it being able to check physical Sharpedo sets, falls to two Hydro Pumps. Its ability to easily accumulate Speed boosts, after two of which Sharpedo outspeeds the entire metagame (boosted and unboosted), makes it a terrifying late game cleaner / sweeper, and it is strong enough that it can punch holes in the opponent's team throughout the game should it absolutely need to. Its horrific defenses are kind of annoying, making it hard for it to come in safely, but once you have removed opposing priority users (which is not difficult if you carry a Fighting-type check and a Flying-type resist) Sharpedo becomes all the more dangerous as it essentially will not be able to be revenge killed. Sharpedo even has the luxury of running an Adamant or Modest nature thanks to Speed Boost, which allows it to hit as hard as possible.

Sharpedo's power can be augmented even further if you run it alongside Togetic (to pass Nasty Plot boosts) or Mawile (to pass Swords Dance boosts), depending on your set, which makes it even more monstrous than it already is. Sharpedo has firmly earned its place in S rank thanks to all of these positive traits and its status as possibly the best sweeper / cleaner / revenge killer in the tier right now.

 

[EonX]

Forgot about one in my earlier post:

Smeargle: Absolutely needs to drop to B-. Venusaur's descent to the tier was really the last nail in this thing's coffin. Venusaur can be used on pretty much any team and it just stops Smeargle cold. It was bad enough that Virizion could outspeed and drop Smeargle quickly, but a wallbreaker that's able to outspeed Smeargle and get a KO on virtually every offensive threat in the tier (and you're only using Smeargle on offense) even if you want to preserve Smeargle is pretty dang bad. At least Smeargle could still get 2 layers up when Tangrowth was the main wallbreaking Grass-type. It can't even do that now.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Magneton: Agree. It's able to check Tyrantrum on offensive teams as a pivot while checking Exploud and Mega-Aboma on defensive and semi-stall builds. Magnet Pull can work on some teams but Analytic is its best set, getting a LO boost anytime it forces a switch-in. Blastoise and Diancie's pressence has improved this mon a lot.

Musharna: Agree. This thing is a balanced Cresselia. CM, Fairy coverage, Healing Wish, Moonlight, T-wave, BP,etc. leaves Dumbo as a great bulky sweeper and an okay support mon. CM+Barrier+Stored Power seems to be ass though, but still better than Cosmic Power Sigilyph

Gurdurr: On the Fence: Most of dark resist relies a lot on its item to either get extra bulk or passive recovery. Still seems to be the best bulky Fight type in RU imo, but I guess it could not fit in A-.

Btw all dark resist far Granbull loses vs Honchkrow D:

M-Glalie: Agree. Anything else to say far 100 speed is not a big deal when Aboma is around.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Magneton: Agree. It's able to check Tyrantrum on offensive teams as a pivot while checking Exploud and Mega-Aboma on defensive and semi-stall builds. Magnet Pull can work on some teams but Analytic is its best set, getting a LO boost anytime it forces a switch-in. Blastoise and Diancie's pressence has improved this mon a lot.

Musharna: Agree. This thing is a balanced Cresselia. CM, Fairy coverage, Healing Wish, Moonlight, T-wave, BP,etc. leaves Dumbo as a great bulky sweeper and an okay support mon. CM+Barrier+Stored Power seems to be ass though, but still better than Cosmic Power Sigilyph

Gurdurr: On the Fence: Most of dark resist relies a lot on its item to either get extra bulk or passive recovery. Still seems to be the best bulky Fight type in RU imo, but I guess it could not fit in A-.

Btw all dark resist far Granbull loses vs Honchkrow D:

M-Glalie: Agree. Anything else to say far 100 speed is not a big deal when Aboma is around.

Is there a reason why you're mentioning a UU pokemon, Honchcrow?

Anyway, I wanted to nominate Mega Camerupt for A. While not being a super popular pick for a mega, Mega Camerupt has a good amount of qualities that make it on par with the likes of Drapion and Seismitoad. The new drops have, for the most part, helped it. Blastoise does trouble it somewhat, but it takes a meaty 60% from earth power coming in, which isn't exactly optimal. However, it has a decent matchup against Venusaur (especially if it lacks Sleep Powder) takes less damage from Absol's knock off, has a solid chance to OHKO specially defensive Diance after rocks with earth power, and absolutely stomps all over Manectric. However, these points are not nearly as important as Mega Camerupt's role as a wallbreaker that can set up stealth rock which, to say the least, is just fantastic. It easily forces some very prominent pokemon out such as Amoongus, Mega steelix, Durant, and Escavalier and can easily set up stealth rock. To top it off, the pokemon that can sometimes switch in on Mega Camerupt (there aren't very many) such as Alomamola, are passive and pretty easy to switch into themselves. It also has a free moveslot due to the fantastic coverage its STABs provide, allowing it to run Toxic, HP ice, Will-o-wisp, Ancientpower, or even resttalk, if you're willing to forego rocks. While it does have common weaknesses in ground and fire, that's still only two weaknesses, allowing it to usually go 1 for 1 even against the most offensive of teams. I agree that it's not quite on par with the likes of Mega Abomasnow, Mega Steelix, or Sharpedo, but I think it still has a pretty useful and unique spot in RU, enough so to warrent a rise.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Is there a reason why you're mentioning a UU pokemon, Honchcrow?

Anyway, I wanted to nominate Mega Camerupt for A. While not being a super popular pick for a mega, Mega Camerupt has a good amount of qualities that make it on par with the likes of Drapion and Seismitoad. The new drops have, for the most part, helped it. Blastoise does trouble it somewhat, but it takes a meaty 60% from earth power coming in, which isn't exactly optimal. However, it has a decent matchup against Venusaur (especially if it lacks Sleep Powder) takes less damage from Absol's knock off, has a solid chance to OHKO specially defensive Diance after rocks with earth power, and absolutely stomps all over Manectric. However, these points are not nearly as important as Mega Camerupt's role as a wallbreaker that can set up stealth rock which, to say the least, is just fantastic. It easily forces some very prominent pokemon out such as Amoongus, Mega steelix, Durant, and Escavalier and can easily set up stealth rock. To top it off, the pokemon that can sometimes switch in on Mega Camerupt (there aren't very many) such as Alomamola, are passive and pretty easy to switch into themselves. It also has a free moveslot due to the fantastic coverage its STABs provide, allowing it to run Toxic, HP ice, Will-o-wisp, Ancientpower, or even resttalk, if you're willing to forego rocks. While it does have common weaknesses in ground and fire, that's still only two weaknesses, allowing it to usually go 1 for 1 even against the most offensive of teams. I agree that it's not quite on par with the likes of Mega Abomasnow, Mega Steelix, or Sharpedo, but I think it still has a pretty useful and unique spot in RU, enough so to warrent a rise.

I disagree on a raise. Offensive never wants to switch into a Venusaur (it can come in if it's -2, but so can everything else) and defensive also doesn't really want to honestly because it's a roll. Camerupt desperately needs removal support if it wants to make real use of it's defensive typing against anything bar Rotom/Manectric because, because while it doesn't have a of weaknesses, it also doesn't have very many resists. In addition, Camerupt is relatively hard to get in safely against a large portion of the metagame, which seriously limits it's wallbreaking potential, especially before mega evolving when it has bad 70/70/75 bulk. While it certainly can do decently once in, it has to predict right or switch out, which hurts it even worse, and against some bulky waters, like the above mentioned Blastoise, it has to just switch out anyway. Setting up rocks could be interesting but Camerupt really wants someone else to put up rocks for it because it turns quite a few 2hko rolls into guaranteed 2hkos.

A lot of it's good matchups are also very situational. You threaten lix if you're extremely fast or not mega evolved, for example. You threaten Absol if they aren't boosted, threaten Durant if they're not band/LO, etc. Threaten Rhyperior if you're not megaed/fast and max spatk modest. It's also simultaneously slower and frailer than it's major competition while being a mega. A- is the best I can see it because the power creep is strong and it's sitting on the wrong end of slow.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I disagree on a raise. Offensive never wants to switch into a Venusaur (it can come in if it's -2, but so can everything else) and defensive also doesn't really want to honestly because it's a roll. Camerupt desperately needs removal support if it wants to make real use of it's defensive typing against anything bar Rotom/Manectric because, because while it doesn't have a of weaknesses, it also doesn't have very many resists. In addition, Camerupt is relatively hard to get in safely against a large portion of the metagame, which seriously limits it's wallbreaking potential, especially before mega evolving when it has bad 70/70/75 bulk. While it certainly can do decently once in, it has to predict right or switch out, which hurts it even worse, and against some bulky waters, like the above mentioned Blastoise, it has to just switch out anyway. Setting up rocks could be interesting but Camerupt really wants someone else to put up rocks for it because it turns quite a few 2hko rolls into guaranteed 2hkos.

A lot of it's good matchups are also very situational. You threaten lix if you're extremely fast or not mega evolved, for example. You threaten Absol if they aren't boosted, threaten Durant if they're not band/LO, etc. Threaten Rhyperior if you're not megaed/fast and max spatk modest. It's also simultaneously slower and frailer than it's major competition while being a mega. A- is the best I can see it because the power creep is strong and it's sitting on the wrong end of slow.

A few of you're points here are somewhat false. 84 Speed EVs to outpace Steelix isn't really "Extremely Fast". Furthermore, I wouldn't necessarily say that having 5 resistances and an immunity is a low amount of resistances. However, the rest of your points here are valid, and since you're a notable member of the community and generally seem to have more support on your side of the argument, I'm going to refrain from posting any more on this subject, as doing so against an esteemed user such as yourself would be pointless. Thanks!

 

[Lord Death Man]

Steelix regularly runs 84 or more speed itself, and the vast majority of it's weaknesses are very commonly paired with something it's weak to because ground (and fire) are both decently common defensive typings in this meta, though I guess low was the wrong choice of words.

Oh yeah and what Spirit said

 

[phantom]

since you're a notable member of the community and generally seem to have more support on your side of the argument, I'm going to refrain from posting any more on this subject, as doing so against an esteemed user such as yourself would be pointless. Thanks!

Don't stop yourself from stating your point b/c of someone's perceived "status", especially if what they're saying might be wrong. As long as your point is sound and isn't abrasive, it's fine.

edit: I hope this part of your post wasn't sarcastic e_e

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Steelix regularly runs 84 or more speed itself, and the vast majority of it's weaknesses are very commonly paired with something it's weak to because ground (and fire) are both decently common defensive typings in this meta, though I guess low was the wrong choice of words.

Oh yeah and what Spirit said

I wasn't being sarcastic. I don't think that he's "wrong" and I'm "right". I simply have a different, less supported opinion. Also, I did screw up when I was talking about steelix, as I as unaware speed EVs were common on it. However, fighting a useless, outnumbered battle is something that I would do in the past, but I'm generally trying to be a better user on smogon anyway, so I'm going to let the subject drop. Most of Lord Death Man's points were valid, anyway, probably moreso than mine.

 

[D Dancer]

Emboar probably needs to rise to A+ with venusaur and absol now around emboar is at his prime. Defensive sets are really good too as they are able to beat physical sharpedos. Emboar is a very verstile pokemon that is able to be a wallbreaker, a defensive wall and a revenge killer. Plus being able to beat most walls maybe even all walls is big for a wallbreaker.

Overall emboar is wordy of an A+ rank maybe even An s rank

252+ Atk Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Emboar: 254-302 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Miyami~~]

Emboar probably needs to rise to A+ with venusaur and absol now around emboar is at his prime. Defensive sets are really good too as they are able to beat physical sharpedos.

Overall emboar is wordy of an A+ rank maybe even An s rank

252+ Atk Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Emboar: 254-302 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

My biggest issue with this isn't the fact that Emboar handles non-+2 Venusaur and Absol rather well, but rather the fact that special Sharpedo, one of the top threats in the tier utterly destroys you no matter what set you pick. On top of that Tyrantrum, another top threat, can enter to resist Wild Charge and Flare Blitz and take you out with Head Smash. You also need to either go max bulk to tank hits or Scarf to beat common threats, and his most powerful moves, Flare Blitz, Wild Charge, and Head Smash, all do massive recoil, limiting your survivability. On top of all that, Choice sets are fairly easy to force out and Defensive sets aren't KOing anything anytime soon.

Emboar should probably stay where it's at.

 

[lighthouses]

I could see mega camerupt rising mainly due to the fact that manectric is a thing now, and it's super scary, even though people tend to just neglect its existance for some reason(theres rotom, too)
Rupt also suffers from being heavily misused, imo, you shouldn't use camerupt with Stealth Rocks, and you shouldnt run any bulk either, seeing as how max hp camerupt isn't walling anything, and if you run it alongside mola then you will probably have some major synergy issues.
A max max set with speed and spatk reaches 139 speed which should be enough to outspeed most(if not all) steelix' and deffensive variants of rhyperior, a set with stabs toxic and hidden power ice is also ideal if you want to actually wallbreak which is also something that i rarely see being used.
I guess rupt shouldn't rise due it needing a ton of support to work, but if said support is given correctly, then camerupt is much better than people make it out to be.
I would support a raise due to me being deathly afraid of Mane(i seem to be the only one too x_x) but thats hardly enough reason i suppose

 

[Windsong]

Flygon A+ --> S

Arguably resists in the tier, undeniably the best hazard control in the tier, creates easy momentum for its team + can run at least four completely viable (and good!) sets, and is the best glue mon in the tier; it just holds teams together. Pretty much a necessity if using any mon that needs hazard control and its amazing resists are a really big part of what makes balance so damn good right now.

I'd also be down on dropping Tyrantrum b/c it's nowhere near as good as it gets credit for being.
Also don't drop Sneasel; it's really good, best nonmega offensive ice-type in the tier, and dark-types with access to Pursuit are really strong right now since they put so much pressure on Psychic- and Steel-types that counter all the top threats in the tier.

edit@below: Offense's lack of prevalence in the meta has little to nothing to do with Tyrantrum. The myth of Scarf Tyrant wrecking offense started b/c of people hyping it during the suspect test. In reality, while offense is run less and easier to build than balance, it's far more because of things with crazy strong priority like Fletchinder, MAboma, and Absol; strong Fighting-types, Psychic-Types, and Electric-types; and absurdly bulky shit that's hard for offense to wear down (shoutouts Mola) than because of anything to do with Tyrant. Either way, Tyrant just isn't especially good in the meta now--teams are leaning towards bulky offense/balance, bulky steels are pretty much everywhere, and the tier is very different than the one Tyrant was almost banned in.

 

[Miyami~~]

I'd also be down on dropping Tyrantrum b/c it's nowhere near as good as it gets credit for being.

Pokémon that was literally 1 person away from being banned and the main reason offence is dead is apparently not S rank material.

I don't have much of an opinion on Flygon, though Shark seems like it's super tough for it :/

 

[atomicllamas]

I think nominating Flygon for S rank is fair, but I'm pretty on the fence. Its probably one of the most meta defining Pokemon in the tier as it has a variety of sets which easily fit on a variety of teams from Stall all the way to HO. My only issue is that whenever I use the scarf set (which is I think generally the best set, tho LO special and more defensive sets certainly aren't bad) I never have all the moves I want (U-turn / EQ / Dragon STAB are must, but I also want other Dragon STAB, Fire Punch and possibly Defog depending on my team). But yeah pretty neutral on Flygon for S, it certainly defines the meta the same way that Mega Steelix and Mega Abomasnow do.

I also agree with a T-trum drop, while it was 1 person away from being banned (2 if you count the fact scythe didn't manage to vote on time), the meta game has clearly shifted away from being dominated by Tyrantrum. Bulky Steel-types are more ubiquitous than ever to deal with Abomasnow and insert other mons that specific steel type checks, while offensive fighters have become a lot better given the tiers shift towards dark spam that came with the drop of Sharpedo and Absol. It certainly doesn't have the same impact on the tier as its current companions in S rank, and I'd argue that at least 3 mons in A+ rank are more deserving of S rank than Tyrantrum (Flygon, Sharpedo, and Durant, and I'm not of the opinion the last two should be S either (though I'm not strongly opposed to them in S fwiw, especially shark)).

So yeah, Flygon raising due to its extremely obvious impact on the meta game, as well as the fact that it is one of the top mons in the tier makes sense to me, while Tyrantrum lowering due to the metas shift towards different cleaners and wall breakers makes sense to me.

 

[tehy]

i just think that, for all its utility and defensive typing, that flygon kinda blows dicks.

it's not that strong, it's not that bulky, it often doesn't accomplish much in a game except clear hazards...the question is whether it's got just enough to work in its roles, or not enough to be really effective at them, I find the latter but *shrug*

sharp and durant are S rank though, i'll drink to that

 

[EonX]

Flygon: Ah, I was waiting on someone to nominate this. I felt it was only a matter of time. I'm really torn on this one. Flygon literally holds balance teams together. Its support set is absolutely fantastic and provides pretty much every form of utility offensive Pokemon can get (momentum, hazard control, pivot ability) Levitate makes it flat out immune to Spikes and TSpikes, making it the absolute best form of hazard control. It makes Spikestack quite difficult to do considering Flygon has reliable recovery and Spikes immunity, giving it some deceptively good longevity. I can't go much further before saying the Support set should simply be max HP max Speed Jolly (216 Speed at worst) instead of that strange contraption I ended up coming up with to check defensive threats. Outspeeding Meloetta and Houndoom means so much more than you could imagine. With that out of the way, it has Choice Scarf, special LO, and Choice Band sets that it can still run. Scarf gives great utility and revenge killing power. U-Turn and twin STABs are needed and then you have a 4th slot to use Defog, Tailwind, DClaw, or even Fire Punch on. Really cool set that any offensive team should consider. Choice Band can be a cute wallbreaker with a good Speed tier a la Specs Typhlosion from BW. Special LO is more flexible than people realize. It can be Defog 3 Attacks, Roost 3 Attacks or Defog + Roost and STABs. Really useful set. Flygon's main issues lie in the fact that neither of its STABs are safe to lock into, the damage output can sometimes be disappointing without a boost, and offensive sets constantly suffer from Mega Snow being able to switch into Ground STABs and stop sweeps at a moment's notice with Ice Shard. In general, Flygon reminds me of ~Stage 5 Slowking. It's the ultimate glue mon and very easy to slap on a team due to the immense support it provides and how little support it needs itself. If I had to choose, I'd say it should go to S rank currently. It's just so good at what it does, can do multiple things, and can fit onto teams so easily. The only thing that should really hold it back imo is the fact that offensive sets are nerfed by virtually any team with Mega Abomasnow.

 

[MrAldo]

I can get behind flygon to S but that isnt what Im here to discuss.

Tyrantrum is still easily S rank: The tier itself have become really well prepared to the scarf set and perhaps becoming the more popular set but the fact that the dinosaur can easily adapt to how the metagame develops again and again means the mon is still a really dominant force. People already forgot this monster can run a LO and a choice band that are the nightmare of balanced teams since if choice scarf head smashes are hard to swallow, choice banded ones are even worse. Common switch-ins to head smash are hit really hard by tyrantrum coverage moves in earthquake, outrage and superpower since mega steelix isnt taking 2 banded superpowers and bronzong which is the most common response for it is 3hkod at worst, even if physically defensive, and is absurdly exploitable to the point isnt exactly that reliable to begin with.

Keep the dino on S, the only thing that have changed for tyrantrum is that people are hella prepared for the scarf set but it can easily adapt to how the metagame develops over and over, that screams S rank to me.

 

[Punchshroom]

Tyrantrum is still the biggest reason everyone and their mothers want a bulky Rock resist; its raw power and physical bulk are pretty absurd for a Scarfer, and its coverage moves, namely Superpower and Crunch, are all perfectly adequate to cover any resists. The meta may be a bit more accustomed to Scarf Tyrantrum this time around, but that doesn't mean TRex's other sets, like Rock Polish or Choice Band, can't take the stage. This is still S Rank worthy material.

Flygon has both effectiveness and versatility on its side, and I can see why it is nommed for S as each set has some notable flaws. As far as Flygon's niches go, it boils down to its Defogging capabilities and offensive potential. Between the hazard resilience, reliable recovery, good Speed, and decent typing, Flygon is without a doubt the best hazard remover to ever grace RU. The offensive Defog set is pretty great as it has a pretty great matchup against nearly every hazard setter in the tier, has good sustain to outlast all of them, and has the offensive presence to keep up the pressure; it has a bit of 4MSS as it wants Fire Blast to fight Bronzong, though a Pursuit user can probably keep that covered. I've even encountered the occasional 3 attacks + Roost variant of Flygon which still isn't too shabby of a corebreaker, but has less utility if it does get walled (usually by bulky Waters). These sets combined with the bulky Defog variant would be the strongest proponents imo for the push to S.

Flygon has other effective sets, though I am less fond of them: the bulky Defog set makes use of its good resists but has rather poor offensive presence, particularly against floating Pokemon (including opposing Flygons!), making it easy to exploit and its U-turns extremely telegraphed. Choice Band Flygon is pretty nice but its STABs aren't the safest moves to lock into or even sometimes clean with, and the Scarf set only compounds those problems as it barely KOes anything with its newfound Speed and makes me want to use some other Scarfer in its place. This is obviously an exaggeration but I feel that Scarf Flygon is like the Ambipom of Scarfers: a 'blanket-check' sort of option but kind of halfasses at its main job and all it really does the majority of the game is dart in and out instead of trying to properly revenge things. Also I don't know what EonX was on about when he said offensive Flygon is nerfed by MAbomasnow because as far as I can see, any Flygon variant gets nerfed (bar Yache Fire Blast, don't get smart with me :/).

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I feel that somebody needs to play a devil's advocate here against Flygon. Here are a few reasons that Flygon, in my opinion, isn't quite S rank. Yes, it offers extremely valuable team suppor in momentum grabbing and, more importantly, hazard removal. While this is true, I think the latter is somewhat overstressed. While I will admit that it's probably the best hazard remover in RU, I feel that people are completely disregarding the existence of Blastoise, Hitmontop, and Hitmonlee. These hazard removers are still viable alternatives over Flygon's Defog, all with the benefit of not removing your own hazards. Now, Flygon obviously has very notable perks over them such as solid defensive typing and reliable recovery, but There are still other, viable forms of hazard removal in RU. While the Defog sets are solid, I'm honestly not sold on scarfed Flygon and escpecially banded Flygon. Scarfed Flygon, while being a solid momentum grabber, has a lot of trouble with power. Even the banded set still doesn't have as much juice as other wallbreakers like emboar, Tyrantrum, and LO Hitmonlee. Being a hazard remover that can take on mega Steelix is awesome, but it crumples against quite a few very notable threats, including MAboma and sneasel, but also less obvious stuff, like choice band Durant and LO Hitmonlee. The main reason for my opposition to this rise, however, is the fact that its main, bulky set is not threatening to a to very many teams. It's a major team player, but it has trouble doing anything besides removing hazards and U-Turning out. So, while Flygon has a very important place in RU, I don't think it's quite S rank.

 

[Senpai D.M]

I actually think the same, Flygon is fine where it's at. I feel like its best set is lo draco etc. And its not enough to rise to s where it simply looks out of place with the other s ranks.

 

[EonX]

I feel that somebody needs to play a devil's advocate here against Flygon. Here are a few reasons that Flygon, in my opinion, isn't quite S rank. Yes, it offers extremely valuable team suppor in momentum grabbing and, more importantly, hazard removal. While this is true, I think the latter is somewhat overstressed. While I will admit that it's probably the best hazard remover in RU, I feel that people are completely disregarding the existence of Blastoise, Hitmontop, and Hitmonlee. These hazard removers are still viable alternatives over Flygon's Defog, all with the benefit of not removing your own hazards. Now, Flygon obviously has very notable perks over them such as solid defensive typing and reliable recovery, but There are still other, viable forms of hazard removal in RU. While the Defog sets are solid, I'm honestly not sold on scarfed Flygon and escpecially banded Flygon. Scarfed Flygon, while being a solid momentum grabber, has a lot of trouble with power. Even the banded set still doesn't have as much juice as other wallbreakers like emboar, Tyrantrum, and LO Hitmonlee. Being a hazard remover that can take on mega Steelix is awesome, but it crumples against quite a few very notable threats, including MAboma and sneasel, but also less obvious stuff, like choice band Durant and LO Hitmonlee. The main reason for my opposition to this rise, however, is the fact that its main, bulky set is not threatening to a to very many teams. It's a major team player, but it has trouble doing anything besides removing hazards and U-Turning out. So, while Flygon has a very important place in RU, I don't think it's quite S rank.

Ok, I'll break this down as I've ended up using Flygon on a ton of my teams ever since it dropped:

Yes, we do have other viable forms of hazard control. However, Flygon has the Speed tier, defensive typing, ability, and movepool to not be worn down very easily. In a tier with bulky hazard setters like Rhyperior, Mega Steelix, Qwilfish, and Diancie, it's imperative that your form of hazard control (if you use one) can outlast these threats. Not only can the support set for Flygon outlast these, but it has STAB EQ to wear them down itself if it needs to. So yes, you have 3 viable choices for hazard removal that doesn't involve removing your own hazards, but they simply lack the longevity to typically hang around long enough against these bulky hazard setters that Flygon can easily outlast. Scarf Flygon is basically the ultimate offensive utility mon in the tier. You're generally going to use it for the utility of U-Turn and Defog / Tailwind first and its revenge killing second. Flygon's Speed tier is what makes the Scarf set so good. It outspeeds every common Scarfer bar Scarf Durant, outspeeds Accelgor, and can easily just spam U-Turn due to its resistance to entry hazards which is something other Scarf users wish they had the freedom to do. The Band set is very similar. It has a good Speed tier and you're using it for that and its hazard resistance more than you are for the power. Both of these sets are saved by the fact that Flygon has twin 100 and 120 BP STAB moves. I don't see how it crumples to LO Hitmonlee considering all sets should outspeed it and have a strong STAB to hit it with (another reason the support set should have high Speed investment imo) Sure it loses to top threats in Mega Abomasnow, Sneasel, and Band Durant, but they can't exactly come in as they please since Flygon can U-Turn or use a Fire move as they try to come in. Flygon isn't being nominated to S rank because it tears teams apart like the rest of S rank. It's being nominated for S rank because it's the best at holding teams together and one of the easiest to just put on a team late in the teambuilding process due to its typing, movepool, ability, and flexibility. Also, Punchshroom, I was getting at the fact that offensive sets auto-drop to Ice Shard after Rocks whereas the support set can at least tank one and chip Mega Snow with U-Turn in a pinch.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Ok, I'll break this down as I've ended up using Flygon on a ton of my teams ever since it dropped:

Yes, we do have other viable forms of hazard control. However, Flygon has the Speed tier, defensive typing, ability, and movepool to not be worn down very easily. In a tier with bulky hazard setters like Rhyperior, Mega Steelix, Qwilfish, and Diancie, it's imperative that your form of hazard control (if you use one) can outlast these threats. Not only can the support set for Flygon outlast these, but it has STAB EQ to wear them down itself if it needs to. So yes, you have 3 viable choices for hazard removal that doesn't involve removing your own hazards, but they simply lack the longevity to typically hang around long enough against these bulky hazard setters that Flygon can easily outlast. Scarf Flygon is basically the ultimate offensive utility mon in the tier. You're generally going to use it for the utility of U-Turn and Defog / Tailwind first and its revenge killing second. Flygon's Speed tier is what makes the Scarf set so good. It outspeeds every common Scarfer bar Scarf Durant, outspeeds Accelgor, and can easily just spam U-Turn due to its resistance to entry hazards which is something other Scarf users wish they had the freedom to do. The Band set is very similar. It has a good Speed tier and you're using it for that and its hazard resistance more than you are for the power. Both of these sets are saved by the fact that Flygon has twin 100 and 120 BP STAB moves. I don't see how it crumples to LO Hitmonlee considering all sets should outspeed it and have a strong STAB to hit it with (another reason the support set should have high Speed investment imo) Sure it loses to top threats in Mega Abomasnow, Sneasel, and Band Durant, but they can't exactly come in as they please since Flygon can U-Turn or use a Fire move as they try to come in. Flygon isn't being nominated to S rank because it tears teams apart like the rest of S rank. It's being nominated for S rank because it's the best at holding teams together and one of the easiest to just put on a team late in the teambuilding process due to its typing, movepool, ability, and flexibility. Also, Punchshroom, I was getting at the fact that offensive sets auto-drop to Ice Shard after Rocks whereas the support set can at least tank one and chip Mega Snow with U-Turn in a pinch.

Fair Enough. I was essentially neutral on the issue, I just thought someone should post a counterarguement of decent length- which I did. I agree that support Flygon should run max speed or close to it, but most people don't run that, allowing it to be wasted by hitmonlee. That's where my logic came from for that comment. So yeah, Flygon can rise.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Durant from A+ to S rank: Everyone knows what this ant is able to do: LO 4 attacks, Hone Claws, Substitute, BP, Scarf, Banded or Lum berry, Durant is one of the most versatile mons in the tier. Its raw power ables Durant to break through defensive cores and teams meanwhile its acceptable speed and its resistance to priority thanks to it great defense (Vacuum Wave though) makes it a thread to any offensive team. It suffers 4MSS, but the ability to choose its counters kinda refute this argument imo. Its poor special bulk is a great impediment, but its godly defensive typing and its 8 resistances is still able to take some hits. Anyway, that's not the main issue that Durant has. The main argument that holds Durant from reaching S rank is Hustle's miss. Durant does not have any reliable move that will hit always 100%. Tyrantrum's main move will be always Head Smash but it doesn't relies on landing it with its dragon STAB + coverage. It's similar to the Torn-T issue in OU, where it got nommed to S rank, and some people disagreed because of Hurricane's reliability. I think this was the reason its discussion got blacklisted (correct me if I'm wrong). This being said, Durant deserves S rank. No matter the 4MSS or the miss chance, it will always force you to play around it. Has a great match-up vs any playstyle, its typing is godlike, and its definetly metadefining.