Resource RU Viability Rankings - V2

[zizalith]

aromatisse to c/c+

an underrated mon on tr, especially after recieving nasty plot in usum. most of its advantages stem from its typing, namely a resistance to knock off. this is huge since almost every tr setter is weak to knock off through type disadvantage (eg. uxie, cresselia or slowking) or a reliance on its item (p2); aromatisse doesnt face this problem at all and can abuse tr on its own with nasty plot unlike more passive setters. its reliant on np boosts for actual damage output, however its hard to get two free turns with it and its typing can also be a hindrance thanks to the multitude of good steel, poison and fire types in the tier which is why i think it should be ranked somewhere in c.

 

[zizalith]

dugtrio to d:

i just realized duggy isnt anywhere in the vr so heres this crappy nom. this mon sucks but uh i guess we have to rank it at some point lol. this might be fairly useless cause stats are supposed to come in “early january” but its still in the tier until the shifts come so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

edit: RIP DUGGY

 

[eren]

hey, just dropping my two cents.

Milotic: A+ -> S

If you don't think Milotic aka Mr. Unkillable is the most splashable mon in this tier, you're really lying to yourself. It is the best glue in the metagame for all sorts of teams. Can also use ice beam to insanely pressure Roserade Shaymin and Rotom-Mow

Durant: A+ -> S

The best Steel-type in the tier. The role Durant plays on many teams is quite funny because even though it is so frail, it acts as a sort of glue for many teams due to its high speed amongst other favorable qualities (one being the lack of good offensive steels of course). Most teams cannot check it without resorting to a scarfer of some sort to revenge it

Feraligatr: S -> A+

Yes, I'm aware with how potent Feraligatr can be. But I simply don't believe it qualifies to be an S rank mon. It won't sweep with DD versus Milotic teams and is usually pressured very easily if SD. Both of the other S-Rankers are also much stronger and provide much bigger headaches to teams. It's also not very splashable and it's typing really doesn't help when building it, unlike kommo-o, durant, or salazzle.

Doublade: A+ -> A-

Even though I'm suggesting major shifts to the S rank, this may probably be the most drastic, and controversial, one. If you have ever frequented the insane asylum known as the ru discord, you have probably seen me rant on how horrid Doublade is. I'll essentially echo MrAldo in his post by saying that if Milotic is on the opposing team, Doublade is useless. Sure, it will check what it needs to once or twice—although, new move tutors like Knock Tsareena and Tantrum Linoone and other metagame trends that MrAldo pointed out like Super Fang Mega Glalie and Darkinium Z Toxicroak dissuade Doublade from coming into threats like it used to—but it won't do much more than that versus a team that isn't Hyper Offense.

 

[aVocado]

Milotic absolutely deserves to be S rank. It's extremely good, heavily reliable, has answers to all common checks and switch-ins you would normally think are able to win against it, can potentially and very realistically beat Shaymin/Rotom-C/Roserade in practice (this seriously shouldn't happen), and beats any and all walls with Refresh or a combination of Toxic and Refresh, in addition to being a solid check to any set up sweeper with Haze. I know it can't run 5 or 6 moves at once but the tier is diverse enough and relaxed enough to where it can afford to forego a move for another and still not lose much.

It's incredibly good, auto-checks half the meta with amazing natural spdef and good defense when invested, literally unkillable if burned, splashable, and just in general really viable and I think the rankings need to reflect that.

 

[Natan]

Nomming Vanilluxe from Unranked to C+
Specs Vanilluxe was a great mon from what I've played in NU, the reason was pretty clear: the lack of good defensive Steel-types (besides Steelix, and it doesn't resist Blizzard), in RU the meta has always being more unkind to it because Registeel was everywhere. When Mega-Steelix dropped, Pokemon like Regi and Zong got more uncommon, hence Vanilluxe became better, with USM we had some new things and I decided to try the Ice Cream, it did a great job at everything, outspeeding lots of threats and spamming Blizzard + Freeze-Dry, right now I think its really cool because I barely see Regi or Zong, most teams rely on Milotic as an Ice-type resist or Cress as general check to Special mons, guess what? It pass through both, however Kommo-o was the biggest issue so I was waiting the shift to make this nom, and not only Kommo-o was gone but we also got Mandibuzz and Blastoise-Mega, guess what? Blizzard KOes even SpD Mandi after Rocks (and beats it without Rocks) and it outspeeds and KOes Mega-Stoise with Rocks, I recommend people to try it, it is really cool how many teams have Milotic as the only Ice resist. I think it's fit better in B- but let's start with C+ for now:

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-584783125
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-584775207
Both are old replays from eifo, they're from Beta when we had more resists in the tier, in the 1st one his opp let Bronzong be weakened and Vanilluxe just beat the team (it also shows how good it is vs Florges and Cress), in the 2nd one Eifo just hit 2 Blizzards in a roll without Hail somehow but the main point is that Vanilluxe itself weakened Escavalier to win later. Again he had an opponent that let one of his best answers (Gigalith) be weakened.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-682447318
Once again eifo put Vanilluxe to work, this time with Taunt + Icicle Plate, arifeen had no switch-ins and thanks to webs Vanilluxe was able to break everything, making the game much easier
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-685790437
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-687353094
Now my own replays: the 1st is a perfect example of teams that have Milotic as an ice resists and are quite Ice-weak, at team preview it was obvious that Vanilluxe could do much, it didn't do as much as it could because I ended up sacking it, however what it did was pretty much weaken Milotic and kill Mega-Steelix, allowing Scarf Delphox to claim a kill with Psychic later, he dced but looking at the sides I'd most likely win that. The 2nd is the G1 in SSNL against Aldo, pretty similar: my opp's Ice resist was Jellicent (Durant is not an Ice-resist), I played a bit agressively to get it in and I got it against Swellow, it was Silk Scarf (unset LOL) but if was Specs Heat Wave wouldn't KO and Boomburst had a 25% chance, I just got a kill, then another agressive play gave me Kommo-o, at that moment I don't think Aldo could win anymore (Sleep Powder miss was annoying but thats mons, also that Kommo-o was Bulletproof so I think I'd win even earlier if Roserade KOed Delphox.

These replays show perfectly how Vanilluxe can be put in work against good teams working as a very strong wallbreaker.

As a minor nom: Qwilfish from C to C+
Seriously, in a meta where Durant and Feraligatr are top threats and you can have a spiker that checks both at once I think C is kinda low for it, looking at the mons in C+ it seems better suited there, obivously I'm not saying its a great mon or anything, it has 4MSS, tends to be a free switch-to special mons and has a lot of other flaws, however I think C+ is fine as it does a great job at checking powerful threats, it's the only thing in the meta that can switch into Durant somewhat safely and still does a nice job at checking mons like Gatr or Pangoro, even though its not necessary I'd like to use these SSNL replays (one I used for Vanilluxe but if you didn't check its here as well) as an example of how it can help on otherwise Durant weak teams:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-687353094 G1 x Aldo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-687362924 G3 x Aldo

I also think Delphox should be B- instead of C+ after using it (even without Kommo-o it still RKs everything its supposed to lol) but it can be the same as the ice cream and Goli would be better suited in C but lets keep these 2 noms for now

 

[phantom]

Ranking updates:

Nidoqueen --> down to A
Doublade --> down to A-
Umbreon --> down to A-
Chesnaught --> down to B
Registeel --> down to B-
Decidueye --> down to B-
Linoone --> up to B
Milotic --> up to S
Durant --> up to S
Delphox --> added to C
Houndoom --> unranked
Mandibuzz --> added to A+
Blastoise-mega --> added to A
Xatu --> down to C+
Vanilluxe --> added to C
Camerupt-Mega --> Unranked
Qwilfish --> up to C+
Diancie --> up to C+
Uxie --> down to C
Rimbombee --> down to C

Reasoning:

Hide

For the mons that weren't discussed:

Mandibuzz was added to A+ because it's the single best Defog user and an incredible defensive threat. Sdef sets check a wide range of Pokemon including Yanmega, Mega Blastoise, Roserade, Shaymin, Nidoqueen, and Psychics, while keeping rocks down from the majority of the meta. It also has a bit of flexibility in its final moveslot that allow it to adapt to its team's needs.

Mega Blastoise was added to A because it's the best offensive spinner in the tier (and a good one too) while also a fairly decent wallbreaker. It's high natural bulk also allows it to trade with a vast majority of offensive threats, while being able to spin at least once or twice in a given match. Its overall consistency warrants its high placement.

Umbreon moved down because it's largely eclipsed by Mandibuzz defensively, especially since Mandibuzz doesn't carry the Bug weakness that Umbreon does, which allows it to check Yanmega. However, Umbreon is still plenty useful in its own ways. Unlike Mandibuzz it provides different kinds of support in heal bell and wish and checks mons like Mega Abomasnow much better; however, the competition it has now can't be ignored.

Registeel continues to see decreased usage. While it's still a good defensive mon, its overall passivity and inability to keep rocks up against Gligar, Sigilyph and sometimes Mega Blastoise makes it deadweight in plenty of matchups. Decidueye also dropped to B- because it now has a hard counter in Mandibuzz that makes its previous role as a wallbreaker obsolete. Chesnaught is just not as splashable as it once was, hence why it moved down. It struggles in keeping Spikes up and invites several top tier mons in for free, mainly Yanmega and Salazzle. It still has its uses in checking Flygon/Zygarde/Feraligatr and other physical attackers, which is why it hasn't moved down further.

Mega Camerupt was unranked because it's simply ineffective in this meta. Its role as a wallbreaker is not a good one given the fact that it can't break Milotic, while its low speed and mediocre bulk prevent it from being consistent in other matchups. There's also much better wallbreakers as Camerupt that don't require nearly as much support to function. Not going to discuss the C ranks since those aren't too relevant, but they were shifted around to reflect current meta trends.

Discussion Points:

Yanmega A --> A+
Zygarde A --> A-
Bewear A- --> B+
Rhyperior A- --> B+
Feraligatr S --> A+
Tsareena B+ --> B
Whimsicott & Uxie C --> Unranked
Machamp B --> B-/C+
Hoopa B -- B-
Kingdra Unranked—> B-

 

[aVocado]

Yanmega

This is a tough one because I feel like on paper Yanmega is super good, like actually amazing. 95 speed puts it above moltres meloetta and roserade which is super nice and specs bug buzz is really hard to switch into, but it's also kinda hard to fit on teams cuz it stacks up weaknesses with a lot of good mons atm and x4 weakness to rocks isn't practical. Still, mega stoise dropping makes it easier to get rid of hazards cuz for once we have a hazard remover that's not weak to ice and that's really nice. It breaks Cresselia and non-spdef milotic which is fun but then it's kinda walled/checked by snorlax and p2 and that kinda sucks e.e I think it should stay in A rank atm. I'm open to it rising to A+ though because its checks/counters can be exploited by u-turn

Zygarde-10%

Zydog exploited spikes really well but I think overall it should drop. Outrage hurts yes but Gligar only got better and it can't even get toxiced now. mandibuzz dropping gives it another wall it needs to break, and in general it doesn't feel in favour atm. I'd rather use something else that offers some defensive value. Just doesn't seem worth it atm. Drop to A-

Feraligatr

Prevalence of Milotic fucked this up pretty bad. It's very susceptible to getting revenge killed and scarf rose is common. yes SD beats milo but idk, in practice it's always shaky. I don't think it deserves S anymore. I know I'm not really giving good arguments but idk, I feel like S is reserved for mons that don't have any flaws and Gatr isn't that. Drop to A+

Machamp

Hard agree with drop. dead walled by cress. it does nothing. Much rather use pangoro over it.

Swellow

Swellow is really good right now imo. Glalie slightly falling in favour is really good for it. Specs boomburst is hard to switch into and it puts a lot of pressure which makes u-turning into scary wallbreakers easy. Removal of Kommo also means it doesn't have to worry about random soundproof anymore, and being able to use hurricane now has helped me get past some annoying things before that would've lived boomburst (araquanid comes to mind). Escav, Registeel, and Bronzong all also kinda fell in favour because of other meta trends and this only helps Swellow. I feel like it should rise to A-

Rhyperior

I've been using Rhyperior a lot before mandi/blastoise dropped with the sr/sd/eq/ice punch set and it's been doing really well. Mandibuzz dropping makes it awkward though because for rhyperior to break through you need rock coverage, and even then on paper mandi can still win with foul play + roost.. Before the drops I'd have argued for it to stay in A- for sure but I haven't used it since so I don't know. SD + Stone Edge kills mandibuzz on paper but then you kinda can't break Gligar or it's a stalemate... on paper I think it should stay A- but in reality I need to test this before I say anything. basically just putting this here to incite discussion and not let this drop easily ;o obviously blastoise dropping hurts it though.

 

[Fragmented]

not nomming but just a minor nitpick. shouldn't mega camerupt still be ranked in the viability rankings since its still RU by usage? putting it in D would be understandable but i feel that it should still be on the viability rankings until it drops (if it ever drops). just my 2 cents, sorry for the non nom post.

fixed - phantom

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I kind of want to bring up the argument of Snorlax to A again. Choice band is an excellent set that is highly slept on and gives Snorlax immediate power and lets it hit like a truck. Also, It's ab excellent check to special attackers like Salazzle, Nidoqueen, Necrozma and Yanmega. Also, fighting types seems to be in a downward spiral lately, with Pangoro, Machamp, and Bewear seeming less effective than just 2 months ago.

 

[Natan]

Yanmega A --> A+ - Yes, most teams have no choice other than give it a kill whenever it comes in, with limited and uncommon checks: Registeel, Snorlax and Florges aren't hard to exploit and weaken for it to get past, not to mention the access to U-Turn, I feel like Yanmega is one of the best Pokemon in the meta and A+ would reflect it better, ofc you can mention Rocks but isn't the bigger issue when it's not that hard to keep Rocks off, I think it's a great mon right now.

Zygarde A --> A- - I've used it and I think its a nice mon, however with mons like Gligar and Mandibuzz being so common I don't think it's A rank anymore, I agree with a drop.

Rhyperior A- --> B+ - I'd keep it, its a nice rocker for offensive teams, with Rindo it provides an ok check for Salazzle while still checking Swellow thats another prominent threat, SD is nice and lets you also pressure Gligar or Mandibuzz better (its kinda annoying that you have to choose one though) and you can do fine against most hazard control options, I think it's fine in A-

Feraligatr S --> A+ - I don't feel that Gatr is S rank anymore, its still annoying as fuck to beat but not really splashable and there are some options that you can use to keep it on check without having to resort to running Milotic on every team (not to mention how common Milotic is), I agree

Tsareena B+ --> B - I agree with it dropping but only to B, it's still an ok mon overall that works really well

I also agree with Swellow to A-, this mon is a pain to face and works really well, not to mention how Normal resists are each time less common on the meta (besides Steelix-M and that's 2HKOed by Heat Wave after Rocks)

I have no opinion on Hoopa, Bewear, Machamp, Uxie, or Whimsicott, I feel like they're worse but haven't seen or used much to give an opinion (ngl I don't even know what Whimsicott was supposed to do in C lol). I also haven't much to say about Kingdra because haven't seen or used it enough.

 

[KW]

Umbreon --> down to A-

I think this is perhaps a little overzealous, considering Mandibuzz has been in the tier for only a couple days and it is unclear how it will fit on archetypes. Yes, Mandibuzz adds competition for a defensive Dark-type, but it doesn't add competition for any of the core roles Umbreon performs otherwise, as a cleric. Given that Umbreon is really the only passable cleric in the tier (Florges is on the borderline of being passable imo), I think it still has a very large niche that defensively oriented teams need to fill. I could even see Mandibuzz not being used as a Defogger on these teams if they were wary of having more than one defensive drop, as Umbreon's role is so unique. Further, Mandibuzz and Umbreon share a very different sets of weaknesses, and while you mentioned Mandibuzz being better vs. Yanmgega, flying type opens up vulnerabilities for Mandibuzz as well. Essentially I think you've arrived at the conclusion that Umbreon is overshadowed far too soon, and I'd like to see this mon reconsidered to rise back to A as the meta evolves and we get to see more how Mandibuzz affects the tier (as a side note I think A+ might also be a bit overenthusiastic for Mandibuzz at this point; though I could be proven wrong.)

Yanmega A --> A+

I disagree with this, as it requires too much team support via rocks removal to be overly splashable on a regular build, and in my experience it really wants the power of Modest to break but needs the somewhat underwhelming damage from Timid. New trends like Spdef Gligar are also problematic, and overall bulky mons like Snorlax, Florges, and P2 are too effective at shutting it down for it be a good enough breaker to consistently warrant the trouble of positioning it.

Zygarde A --> A-

I disagree, as while it remains one dimensional, Choice Band is still very good at doing its job, Espeed is useful, and this mon is able to very consistently add value. I do not see Mandibuzz as a great check, considering it is 2HKO'd by Outrage after rocks and not much has changed for it. Outrage in general is strong enough that it can usually manage to at least trade for something in the late game vs. balance, and versus offense I feel its strong speed tier and priority remain as threatening as ever.

Rimbombee --> down to C

This is the best webs setter, and webs is a good archetype. It should be ranked at atleast B- again to reflect the viability of the archetype as a whole, which C is very much inaccurate for.

Whimsicott & Uxie C --> Unranked

Whimiscottt has enough of an anti offense niche to warrant keeping, albeit perhaps at C-. Uxie I'm ok with dropping, as it really only has a place on TR atm which is an archetpye at the very edges of viability imo.

Feraligatr S --> A+

The metagame indeed has evolved to make it very hard for this to do its job, and the Milotic matchup really is a set of 50/50s. Still very reliably threatening with decent bulk, and very splashable, but this isn't winning games like it once was able to do. Agree.



Also, was Pykumuku explicitly rejected from rankings, or just ignored? I feel it very much makes sense to be ranked somewhere, as per my previous post on it.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Machamp to B-/C+: Disagree
Sure, it might be a bit of a tough time for Machamp lately, with yanmega and other hard hitters around, but it can still break through stall well and destroy bulky pokemon like Mega Steelix, Milotic, and Rhyperior. And it's not completely walled by Cresselia as others have said because it has facade and knock off. It still does it's job nicely and hits extremely hard. Keep it at B.

Tsareena: B+ to B: Strongly Disagree
Why should this mon drop at all? Seriously, it can destroy Milotic and Mega Blastoise and other bulky waters, hard to switch into with power whip, plenty of moves like play rough, high jump kick, knock off and more to keep the opponent guessing, and reliable recovery. Nothing at all has changed to warrent a drop for Tsareena. It's an nice mon with impressive attack, solid bulk and the ability to block priority. If that doesn't sound like B+ idk what is.

Feraligatr S to A+: Disdainfully agree
It pains me to agree with this since I love Feraligatr, but i just don't think it's S material right now.... Milotic hurts it a lot since it only really has Crunch to deal with on DD sets and it can be burned with scald and stat boosts can be reset with haze. Sure, One of it's biggest answers Chesnaught is not very good right now, but Milotic really fucks this mon up unfortunately. Still an excellent mon, but the meta has been a bit unkind to it. However, I do think if Milotic gets banned in some sort of suspect test, Feraligatr should go straight back to S. But for now... Drop it to A+...

 

[Mr.Murkrow]

I would like to make a suggestion for Rotom to be ranked. While the reason I decided to whip out the ghost form of Rotom was to check Durant (with a Colbur Berry) which hopefully won't be long for this tier, I found that Rotom had some very intriguing uses. The combination of WillO + Hex allows this to break down really annoying fat mons like Mega Lix and can fairly easily Defog on them while being able to have a relatively fast Volt Switch that outpaces threats like Roserade and Moltres and can burn threats like Feraligatr and Adamant Flygon. Colbur Berry seems like the best fit for an item on Rotom as it can essentially block a rapid spin from anything once sans the garbage known as Dhelmise. I feel its speed and typing + movepool allow it to really disrupt a lot of common electric checks in RU that deserves to be looked at.

 

[eifo]

I have a few new noms i want to make:

Toxicroak to C
How do I word this? Hmmm... Oh yeah! Croak is horseshit. It gets fucking PP stalled by Milo, the mon it's supposed to take advantage of walling FFS. It's just that weak. It can't break for shit, its speedtier is whatever and Sucker has no damage output whatsoever. Get this mon the hell away from the upper part of the VR.

Virizion to A-
Doublade, the bane of Viri's existence, is now worse than ever. It sets up with ease thanks to its high natural bulk, and for the most part it can't be revenged by special scarfers. SD Dual STAB Stone Edge @ Grassium just puts a dent in any team. If Ant leaves, I could even see it rising to A/A+.

Noivern to B/B+
Regi is worse than ever, which frees up Specs Noivern. With people actually running normal resists, I have found Noivern to be a lot harder than Swellow to handle. It also has some defensive utility thanks to its defensive typing, and Switcheroo to potentially neuter Cress - its only good check.

Next, we'll have a look at the discussing points:

Bewear A- --> B+
So i was playing around with SD and it wasn't doing all that great, which made me think that this mon's viability had falle off a lot. I used to think it was A+ worthy back in SM at one point, but with the way the meta had changed, it struggled to make as big of an impact. Setting up was a lot harder and its speedtier meant it was just going to be revenged after a boost. But then i came to the realization that a set with more immediate power could probably still be good. So I tried using CB. CB Bear positively surprised me: its damage output is just insane. The mon unfortunately can't check Gatr as well as it used to with SD and Superpower being so common now, and Ant and Kommo fucked it over quite a bit (past tense bc this has change/is about to change), but it still comes in on plenty of slower stuff, breaks fat rather effectively with CB Dual STAB, and even in the worst case scenario it usually gets a trade off, bc it can tank anything from full HP. As of right now, Kommo is gone and Ant is very likely to follow suit, which gets rid of some of its biggest problems - being weak to two of the best and most common mons in the tier. It also means there's less competition for it as a fighting type, as before it left it wasn't that easy to fit it on the same team or over Kommo. While I was originally going to agree on this change, I actually disagree with dropping Bewear. Keep it in a-.
Here's a replay showcasing just how effective CB Bewear can be https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-688363076

Yanmega A --> A+
This mon is incredibly annoying to play vs bc of how stupidly powerful it is, but at the same time it requires a lot of support. Bc it is 4x weak to rocks, the Yan user is always going to be behind in the hazard game. He's the one that's pressured to defog, and if he can't manage to, Yan is screwed. Defensive teams might have lost what was formerly known as its best counter play to Yan with Regi's fall from grace (bar stall, which can still use it), but Sdef Glig still takes it on with ease (especially if it has Knock) and Mandi entering the tier gives us another solid switchin to Yan. I don't think this mon is worthy of a rise. Keep it in A.

Rhyperior A- --> B+
Rhyp doesn't set rocks as well as it used to bc all the new and better removal options that entered the tier in USM. Toxic Dual STAB SR used to be great, but now Milo runs refresh a lot and Glig has Immunity, which means you're forced to run SD to beat the latter. Toxic is still neat for Mandi, Cress and non-refresh Milo, but it's not as solid as it was. This slght change for the worse should also be shown in the VR, hence I Agree with dropping Rhyp.

Feraligatr S --> A+
This mon was never worthy of being an S rank. Hard agree.

Zygarde A --> A-
While Tarrows may be a broken move, and CB Espeed is nice priority, Zyg has an extremely underwhelming damage output. I was highly disappointed when using it and never struggled to much when playing against it. It doesn't serve any purpose defensively to help ncrease its viability either. I don't think it ever should have been put in A, and it certainly deserves a drop. As a matter of fact, I don't even think it deserves to be in A-. Drop it to B+.

Tsareena B+ --> B
Tsar was probably ranked a bit too high bc of the initial hype. On top of that, the new drops fucked it up even more. M-Stoise is a much better spinner and Mandi walls it forever. Agree

Whimsicott & Uxie C --> Unranked
Whimsicott is garbage and deserves to drop, but Uxie still has a niche as a partner to Linoone on non-screens teams. Drop Whimsi to UR and Uxie to C-.

Machamp B --> B-/C+
As much as I love Machamp, it was always ranked too high. I don't think anything has really changed for it, but I believe B- was always a more fitting rank. Agree.

Hoopa B -- B-
What exactly warrants a drop for Hoopa? Nothing has changed for it. It still breaks fat just as good as ever, and it's still just as worthless vs offense. Mandi drops to +2 AoP. Keep it in B.

Kingdra Unranked—> B-
Haven't used or played vs this mon yet:/

 

[DiscoDucky]

Toxicroak to C
How do I word this? Hmmm... Oh yeah! Croak is horseshit. It gets fucking PP stalled by Milo, the mon it's supposed to take advantage of walling FFS. It's just that weak. It can't break for shit, its speedtier is whatever and Sucker has no damage output whatsoever. Get this mon the hell away from the upper part of the VR.

Can't SD Toxicroak OHKO Milo after +2 Gunk Shot or something? I mean, it can rack up more SDs against Milo to the point where moves like Gunk Shot OHKOs where PP Stalling isn't that big of an issue. Besides:

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
​

Even without an Swords Dance, it still is almost a 2HKO after Stealth Rock. No matter how you slice it, Toxicroak almost always has an advantage in this situation.

Also, Toxicroak abuses its typing to set up on stuff like Virizion, Feraligatr (to some degree), and Araquanid. Furthermore, it functions as a soft check to Mega Blastoise since it resists most of its Mega Launcher-boosted moves (i.e. Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse).

 

[Jordy]

Can't SD Toxicroak OHKO Milo after +2 Gunk Shot or something? I mean, it can rack up more SDs against Milo to the point where moves like Gunk Shot OHKOs where PP Stalling isn't that big of an issue. Besides:

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 370-437 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
​

Even without an Swords Dance, it still is almost a 2HKO after Stealth Rock. No matter how you slice it, Toxicroak almost always has an advantage in this situation.

Also, Toxicroak abuses its typing to set up on stuff like Virizion, Feraligatr (to some degree), and Araquanid. Furthermore, it functions as a soft check to Mega Blastoise since it resists most of its Mega Launcher-boosted moves (i.e. Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse).

@every other RU player here: how good is this guy (the user, not Toxicroak) in RU?

Milotic spams haze

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Milotic spams haze

Brilliant rebuttal.

Sarcasm aside, an unboosted Gunk Shot comes close to a 2HKO, so to avoid Toxicroak powering through it it will need to use recover. This gives Croak the opportunity to use SD and then OHKO next turn with Gunk Shot.

 

[Jordy]

Brilliant rebuttal.

Sarcasm aside, an unboosted Gunk Shot comes close to a 2HKO, so to avoid Toxicroak powering through it it will need to use recover. This gives Croak the opportunity to use SD and then OHKO next turn with Gunk Shot.

The calc that is shown is LO croak, which to be quite frank, should not be used as it means croak gets worn down way too quickly, and in exchange it doesnt get the huge nuke poison or fight z provide it with.
252 Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Toxicroak Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Toxicroak Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 111-131 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 91.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
big boi damage.

Hide

Btw thanks, i really tried hard on that message.

 

[MultiAmmiratore]

The calc that is shown is LO croak, which to be quite frank, should not be used as it means croak gets worn down way too quickly, and in exchange it doesnt get the huge nuke poison or fight z provide it with.
252 Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Toxicroak Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Toxicroak Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 111-131 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 91.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
big boi damage.

Hide

Btw thanks, i really tried hard on that message.

I don't understand how toxicroak lose if Milo spams haze:
Toxicroak does gunk shot milo does haze...
Now if toxicroak does gunk Shot and the opp hazes than milo is in range of the z move and if milotic recovers and toxicroak sword dances than milo dies to the Z

, at least that's a mindgame... ( I dont really play RU, correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Jordy]

I don't understand how toxicroak lose if Milo spams haze:
Toxicroak does gunk shot milo does haze...
Now if toxicroak does gunk Shot and the opp hazes than milo is in range of the z move and if milotic recovers and toxicroak sword dances than milo dies to the Z

, at least that's a mindgame... ( I dont really play RU, correct me if I'm wrong)

Ok so here it is, the mindgame will almost always be in Milotic's favor, which allows Milotic to beat Toxicroak (MOST OF THE TIME). I'd also just like to say that I do not support Toxicroak falling to C btw, I think B- would be a more approperiate rank.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Life Orb is better - there are other Pokemon that need the Z move more, and thanks to Drain Punch the recoil isn't too big of a deal. Z moves (apart from Icium) don't really help it beat anything it otherwise couldn't. I wouldn't deny that it's overall mediocre but saying it loses to Milotic is just straight up wrong.

 

[MultiAmmiratore]

Ok so here it is, the mindgame will almost always be in Milotic's favor, which allows Milotic to beat Toxicroak (MOST OF THE TIME). I'd also just like to say that I do not support Toxicroak falling to C btw, I think B- would be a more approperiate rank.

I don't really think it will almost always be milotic favor... The milotic Player is the one Pressured, if he does a wrong move milotic dies and toxicroak can open holes, if the toxicroak user sword dances on the haze that's not really critical, it doesn't loose anything and can even sword dance again, I think the milo Player has more chance to do the wrong move

 

[Jordy]

I don't really think it will almost always be milotic favor... The milotic Player is the one Pressured, if he does a wrong move milotic dies and toxicroak can open holes, if the toxicroak user sword dances on the haze that's not really critical, it doesn't loose anything and can even sword dance again, I think the milo Player has more chance to do the wrong move

Milo can do more wrong, but someone that knows what hes doing, will know that haze + recover on the right timing, is the right play, once the rythm of the opponent is known. (which yes, i know, can be hard to figure out, sometimes)
I don't want to derail this thread too badly btw so its probs better to discuss this on the ru discord instead.

 

[feen]

Yanmega A --> A+ Yanmega is one of the best balance breakers at the moment, being able to 2HKO the likes of Defensive Milotic and Mandibuzz after Stealth Rock is huge. Moreover, it is a great Cresselia check and legit 2HKOes the entire tier barring Specially Defensive Gligar, Moltres, Registeel, and Snorlax. Moltres can be pressured by Stealth Rock while Registeel is pretty bad right now, considering it loses to common Stealth Rock users such as Mega Steelix, Nidoqueen, Rhyperior, and gets Defogged on by Gligar. Specially Defensive Gligar and Snorlax are actually good checks, but Snorlax is forced to Roost, while Gligar cannot do much in return unless it runs Knock Off. Saying that 4x Stealth Rock weakness and having Defog support keeps it from being A+ material is incorrect, as Yanmega itself can 2HKO every Stealth Rock user barring Registeel, Diancie, and Bronzong, meaning they would not risk clicking Stealth Rock unless the hazard remover is healthy enough to remove them. Definitely rise it to A+.

Zygarde A --> A- Okay I get it that this Pokemon is one dimensional, and that it does a good job in being a fast Pokemon capable of breaking fat teams, but one should realize that Zygarde is clicking Thousand Arrows way more times than Outrage, and therefore it will miss the 2HKO on Porygon2, Milotic, and Mandibuzz. Moreover, Gligar and Cresselia are still top tier Pokemon which wall Zygarde, and although Zygarde pressures offensive Stealth Rock users, it still loses to the defensive ones, barring Diancie and Bronzong. Moreover, it is too frail to take more than a hit, and therefore is prone to almost all Choice Scarf Pokemon. Agree to drop to A-.

Bewear A- --> B+ I completely disagree with this, even though Bewear is going through a tough time in the tier, where there's fast Cresselia and Moltres, as well as Fightinium Durant and strong Special Attackers like Nidoqueen, Sigilyph, and Necrozma, Fluffy is still a fantastic ability to set up in. I feel like Swords Dance Normalium Z is the best set for this Pokemon, as it can SD on Mega Steelix, Gligar, Mandibuzz, Doublade, as well as check threats such as Feraligatr (one of the best offensive checks imo). Bewear can also nuke Cresselia with Z Double-Edge, as Psychic fails to KO it. The tier did not change so much to drop this Pokemon to B+.

Feraligatr S --> A+ With Milotic being one of the top Pokemon in the tier, Feraligatr faces a lot of pressure setting up. The tier has grown aware of Feraligatr as a threat and teams are always made with a countermeasure to it. It does not define the metagame like it did a few months ago, and more often it faces trouble setting up a Dragon Dance, mainly due to Mandibuzz and Rotom-Mow being a great Defog user. Even after setting up a Dragon Dance, the Feraligatr user usually has to risk clicking Dragon Dance again in order to sweep the opposing team, as Choice Scarf revenge killers of Feraligatr are very common (basically when you're not using Milotic). Finally, people hesitate from using Feraligatr because you're getting more off your team by running Milotic over it and having a Durant, as Durant is also a good sweeper. These reasons are why this Pokemon should drop to A+.

Virizion B+ --> A- Echoing eifo here, Doublade is actually pretty bad right now and most of the bulkier teams just get smashed by Virizion. The ideal set would be SD with Grassium Z, and being a physically offensive Pokemon that can actually KO Milotic without a Z-Move is massive. Z Leaf Blade is super strong and actually kills Cresselia after some prior damage. Also Mandibuzz and Gligar being prevalent means Virizion can easily get a Swords Dance on these Pokemon. Definitely rise to A-.

Milo can do more wrong, but someone that knows what hes doing, will know that haze + recover on the right timing, is the right play, once the rythm of the opponent is known. (which yes, i know, can be hard to figure out, sometimes)

Stop whatever ideal gameplay scenarios you're thinking, they aren't ever going to be perfect in practice. Toxicroak is literally going to Gunk Shot in order to force Milotic to Recover, and then use Swords Dance. Milotic literally does nothing against it, so saying Milotic beating is just absurd. You don't even need to use Z-Move on Milotic, that's wasting a Z-Move, just clicking the right moves makes you beat it.

 

[zizalith]

THANK U ARIFEEN for stopping that dumbass discussion

anyways onto some noms

Whimsicott & Uxie C --> Unranked

both of these mons are pretty niche options, but they still maintain an important niche as an anti offense mon and linoone partner respectively, both providing very nice memento support, which isnt really seen anywhere else, and is very appreciated by some setup mons. whimsi basically invalidates setup with encore, while uxie provides stealth rock and essentially acting as a discount cresselia. while I think they should both stay in c, I wouldn't be opposed to a drop to c-.

Hoopa B -- B-

literally nothing changed for hoopa I don't know whys this being discussed lol. it beats mandi anyways so stay in b.

KINGdra Unranked—> B-

goat mon. critdra demolishes stall with after weakening cress and umbreon, but has an unreliable match up against offense since its really hard to set up twice with it. rain dance is really hard to handle offensively, but trades the better offense matchup for a worse stall one. it only fits some teams as well, so I think b- is appropriate.