RU Viability Rankings

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pancake

rise up, blinking in the sun
is a Contributor to Smogon
#26
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I feel like a mon that is ranked too low as of now is Cloyster. Cloyster's amazing physical bulk allows it to set up on a plethora of threats, such as Feraligatr, Gligar and Flygon. In RUPL I'm seeing a lot of Gligar, which Cloyster benefits from immensely, and also the rise of Mantine as the most popular bulky water which is also good for Cloyster because you can OHKO it without using your Z-move. You can also set up on it if you're willing to risk getting burned. Many people prepare for Feraligatr when thinking about revenge killers, but most people don't prep for +speed nature Cloyster, which outspeeds what is arguably the best scarfer right now, Shaymin, after a Shell Smash. While bulkier teams are rising, that includes balance to an extent, and Cloyster bops balance. As a result, I think that B+ is too low for it, and its ability to demolish offense and balance is better suited for A-.

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Hoopa is a mon hanging out in C+ with bad mons like Donphan and Galvantula that I feel like should definitely rise to B-/B. As previously noted, bulkier teams have become more popular as of late ever since Nidoqueen rose (free nido ;_;). Anyway so Hoopa is very, very good at dismantling these bulkier teams, especially when paired with Spikes, while retaining a decent matchup against offense. These teams typically use Umbreon as their main Hoopa "answer" which gets bopped by +2 Focus Blast / All-Out Pummeling, and sometimes Quagsire too but that gets 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball. Anyway it's safe to say that these rising teams have very limited counterplay to Hoopa and thus, it should be in B- or B instead of C+.
 

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eren

break necks, i'm the chiropractor
is a Tiering Contributor
#27
ctrl + f archeops

no results found
:mad:


to go slightly more in-depth, archeops is one of the best (i'd argue) suicide rockers in the tier, severely outclassing aerodactly in this role specifically due to its access of endeavor, making it much more valuable overall than aerodactyl for a lead spot while still possessing a good enough speed tier to actually get up rocks + endeavor succesfully. just this niche allows it a ranking of c. i know this isnt much but i feel like i dont need to go too in depth

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-297190 a loss but rozes is able to prevent rocks + get up his own successfully where aerodactyl would fail if seismitoad burnt
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-580414832 a low quality replay but it shows my archeops succesfully + severely weakening another dude, where aerodactyl would fail

i dont save replays sorry :[
 
#28
ctrl + f archeops

no results found
:mad:


to go slightly more in-depth, archeops is one of the best (i'd argue) suicide rockers in the tier, severely outclassing aerodactly in this role specifically due to its access of endeavor, making it much more valuable overall than aerodactyl for a lead spot while still possessing a good enough speed tier to actually get up rocks + endeavor succesfully. just this niche allows it a ranking of c. i know this isnt much but i feel like i dont need to go too in depth

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ru-297190 a loss but rozes is able to prevent rocks + get up his own successfully where aerodactyl would fail if seismitoad burnt
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-580414832 a low quality replay but it shows my archeops succesfully + severely weakening another dude, where aerodactyl would fail

i dont save replays sorry :[
As an additional point in favor of Archeops, it can kill itself off using Head Smash (assuming you are brought to sash) to prevent a spin or defog while dealing substantial damage in the process. Albeit 80% accurate, Aero can only provide this additional utility if it forgoes coverage for double-edge. Just my two cents. I appreciate Archeops as a suicide rocker and support your stance.
 
#29
A few noms:
A- > A
Rose is really good right now. Being the strongest Grass in the tier without being reliant on a weather condition is already a big boon for it, being able to beat non-Regi steels due to essentially packing Flamethrower (Technician HP Fire is a 90 BP move, so Flamethrower) is another. I think her best offensive set currently is Sleep Powder + 3 Attacks, having a fairly fast Sleep Powder is a huge boon to ease prediction and create free turns for either her or something else, either by sleep or by them switching out. Grass/Poison/Fire is extremely hard to switch in on, with only the super bulky mons (Cress, Umbreon, Laxy, Regi) being able to reliably come in, and those can be crippled by Sleep Powder before switching out to something that can deal with them. She's also the best offensive Spiker in the tier, being able to set Spikes, have reliable recovery, absorb Tspikes, and live past the first few turns, all with the power Glalie packs. Lastly, Rose also has a few other sets she can run, including Specs, which hits even harder although lacks the overall utility, a functional scarf set that differentiates itself from Shaymin by being Stronger, having secondary stab, and a better way around Steels with the aforementioned HP Fire. Rose's power, utility, and versatility can't be ignored, and I feel like it's deserving of a rise to A.

A > A-
Okay, yeah. We all know how hard it is to wall in sun and how devastating it can be to teams in sun, but I feel like A is overselling Venu a little, as it has a few issues that prevent it from being A in my eyes. Due to Roserade's presence, it's confined to sun teams, which while they got better this gen, still aren't super consistent just due to being weather HO. Venusaur is also very reliant on Sun being up, moreso than the other options for sun abusers, due to Growth and Solar Beam being extremely reliant on Sun being up. So once you get Venu in, which is somewhat difficult to do due to its fairly average bulk, and set up a growth, you have at most six turns before you're weakened and your main STAB, Solar Beam, is taken away. The popularity of Gigalith also hurts it, more than Leafeon who can Z-Dig it, as Sand takes away Solar Beam, reduces your speed, and halves Growth's boosting potential. And yeah, Giga Drain over Solar Beam is possible, but the drop in power is noticeable and I wouldn't recommend it. Sun Teams are also favouring Leafeon nowadays for its slightly easier time switching in, higher speed, and less reliance on sun, and saying that Venusaur is an entire rank (A to B) above it doesn't seem right. I think Venusaur should drop.

Huge thanks to EviGaro for helping me out with these noms and letting me bounce ideas off of her.
 

Erzengel

the most free person
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#30
discussion point:

Reuniclus from S to A+

im not going in depth here or anything but i dont feel like reuniclus deserves to be S-Rank anymore due to some metagame shifts,
but i'd like to hear yalls opinions first [because starting one-sided discussions is kinda stupido]


Basically: Reuniclus does not counter the offensive metagame threats [salazzle, hera, feraligatr, sharp etc] and is only really good to break balance teams but even then it suffers from the 4MSS so it sometimes ends up doing nothing against balance teams simply because it's not abled to.
Well, the meta is just full of strong dark and ghost types and even defensive teams have pretty good answers for it most of the time

just some lil thoughts, i'd like to hear your opinion on the matter
 
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Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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#31
Well I never really saw Reuniclus as a Pokemon capable of stopping the offensive metagame threats in the first place (that's more Cresselia's thing); Reuniclus has always been a mon to turn the opponent's defensive/passive mons into liabilities and punishing the opponent with setup like Calm Mind/Trick Room + strong hits. Reuniclus may not be able to set up on those offensive mons you mentioned, but those offensive mons don't reliably stop Reuniclus when it has the chance to get going: Salazzle has no business switching in, Heracross needs to be wary of Psyshock on the switch, the Waters can't OHKO Reuni and die to Z-Thunder, and all of them get fuked by Trick Room on the switch regardless. There are few Pokemon that can halt Calm Mind Reuni while not being put at risk by Trick Room, and the fact that Cresselia considers Skill Swap solely for this Pokemon is a testament to its prowess.

Reuniclus's punishing potential is still really strong, and most of the Pokemon that can reliably respond to Reuniclus risk getting outlasted in the long run. Reuni is definitely a threat which you'd want at least 2 checks for.
 

phantom

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RU Co-Leader
#32
updates:

Registeel --> up to A

Staple on stall, good on balance, checks the majority of special attackers in the tier and beats the two main hazard removers. Nidoqueen leaving means that a good chunk of special attackers fail to beat it and even some physical attackers like Sharpedo and Leafeon struggle against it. It's about as much of a staple as most of the A rank, so moving up was a no brainer.

Seismitoad --> up to B

One of the better SR users in the tier since Nidoqueen left. It checks a good number of attackers like Salazzle and Sharpedo and can beat Gligar, making it a decent SR user. The lack of good SR users since Nidoqueen left has made Seismitoad a decent replacement on many offensive builds. Not that consistent since it struggles vs Mantine and is a so-so gatr check so B is appropriate.

Hoopa -->up to B

Pursuit users, at least the faster ones, are at an all-time low and Hoopa is one of the most efficient stallbreakers with its SubNP set. With defensive teams being a lot more common and Hoopa's ability to make use of Z moves being quite good, B seemed like a fitting move for it.

Quagsire --> up to B+ and
Pyukumuku --> down to C+

This wasn't brought up, but it's a change that I think is more reflective of the meta rn. Quagsire is clearly the better Unaware user because of the fact that it can reliably counter Reuniclus, Salazzle, and Rest Curse Snorlax, warranting a rise. The first two are pretty hard for stall to cover without specific checks, which makes Quagsire the optimal choice for an Unaware user since it eases teambuilding for defensive teams. Furthermore, Pyukumuku doesn't really beat anything relevant that Quagsire doesn't. I think unranking it might be better, but this will be the start for now.

re Venusaur:

Venusaur pretty much makes sun as dangerous as it is. I don't think sun would be nearly as good without it. A lot of people assume Venusaur is stuck to using conventional LO sets, but Z sets with Solar Beam are extremely effective and possess even greater wallbreaking potential. I don't think replacing Venusaur and using Leafeon over it makes your sun team better - you usually use those two together anyway, but pretty much any good sun will use Venu since it's more dangerous once set up given that it has less checks and has the capability to create those setup turns on its own with Sleep Powder. Venusaur goes hand-in-hand with sun since it's by far the most consistent sun sweeper and also has a bit of versatility to it too, so it's not getting ranked any lower than Torkoal.

Discussion Points:

Durant up to A-
Roserade up to A
Salazzle up to to A+
Florges down to A-
Zoroark down to A+
Bronzong down to B/B-
Pangoro up to B
Noivern up to C+
Pyukumuku Unranked
 
#33
Durant up to A-: On the fence about this one, on one hand it's still incredibly powerful and has the coverage to hit just about everything super effectively while also having one of the best Speed stats of all the common threats in the meta rn (only getting naturally outsped by Swellow and Salazzle), on the other hand its tendency to miss can make it unreliable and it also has way more potential checks and counters than last gen, so regardless of which coverage moves you opt for, there's gonna be a decent amount of mons that just beat it.

Roserade up to A: Strongly agree. I would've made this nomination myself if you didn't include this as a discussion point tbh, in fact I wouldn't even be opposed to seeing it in A+. It's one of the hardest mons to prepare for in this meta imo, its STABs are so powerful coming off base 125 SpA and Technician-boosted HP Fire obliterates most Steel-types, meanwhile Sleep Powder allows you to cripple potential checks and counters like Umbreon. Turn to Feliburn vs ht in week 2 of RUPL to see how a Roserade can just completely rip apart a team that hasn't sufficiently been prepared for it: even without Life Orb Roserade lacks solid switchins, ht was lucky enough to get his Mantine burned so that Rade couldn't just put it to sleep but once that thing was out of the way, nothing really stopped Feliburn from winning anymore. Roserade basically necessitates that you have at least two mons on a team that can deal with it due to how Roserade can cripple something with a decently fast Sleep Powder. This makes it centralizing enough of a threat that it deserves to be called one of the top threats in RU atm, so put it in A at the very least.

Salazzle up to to A+: Disagree. Salazzle is great, but what holds it back from being A+ material imo is how it doesn't have that same "oh shit, I just built my team and now I realize I just lose to x" factor that a lot of other A+ mons have. I often find myself in situations where a team that looks initially looks solid turns out to just fail miserably if I let Flygon or Gatr get a DD up, or I realize that my team's best bet against CurseLax is Guts Heracross. Salazzle is way easier to naturally prepare for: SR wears it down easily, a lot of common SR setters wall Salazzle, unlike some other setup sweepers Salazzle lacks the bulk to tank a hit or two from anything it can't OHKO, and it's easier to revenge kill than a Flygon because it can't boost its speed. Salazzle still has many positive traits, but it's neither as splashable as Doublade nor as dangerous as Feraligatr.

Florges down to A-: Agree. It sucks as a Wish passer (just use Umbreon) and Comfey gives it a lot of competition in the CM department. Of course Florges still has way more power than Comfey, as well as more initial bulk which can be very helpful if you need Florges to reliably switch in on a slew of dangerous attackers, but I don't find it terribly splashable atm so it warrants a slight drop.

Zoroark down to A+: Agree. I still hold that Zoroark is an insanely threatening and versatile mon and that Illusion can feel very unfair, but after Nidoqueen went UU the meta's gotten extremely bulky, which makes it easier to circumvent Zoroark's shenanigans since guessing wrong does not have to result in Zoroark picking off a mon you really wanted to keep alive or setting up an SD and sweeping. In a more offensive meta, it's an easy S rank mon, but at the moment there's too many hurdles on the road for it to truly shine.

Bronzong down to B/B-: Agree, idc whether it's B or B- tho. It's about as passive as Registeel but less bulky and vulnerable to way more threats (Zoroark, Sharpedo, Escavalier etc). It's cool to have if you need an SR setter that can reliably beat stuff like Flygon and Shaymin so it definitely has a viable niche, but it's usually hard to justify using this thing over another SR setter.

Pangoro up to B: Agree. Flame Orb Hera gives it a lot of competition as a ridiculously powerful Fighting-type but if you're looking for a dedicated stallbreaker, Pangoro's among your best options in the current meta.

Noivern up to C+: No strong opinion on this since I hardly ever see it but I guess moving this thing up is fine, I assume it's being moved up due to access to Taunt which allows it to be a Swellow clone that trades spammable STAB Boombursts for a better matchup vs bulkier teams and that's kinda cool, that at least gives it a more distinguishable niche than something like Sigilyph (literally who?)

Pyukumuku Unranked: I love this thing but it's probably not worth using atm, the mere fact that Quagsire beats standard Reuniclus really does make it worth using over Pyuku 100% of the time because Reuniclus is horribly broken. Guess it's better to just let it drop off the VR entirely until we ban Reuniclus.

Some other thoughts:
  • I think Rhyperior can get a rise to A-, without the competition of Nidoqueen this thing's probably the best SR setter to have for more offensively minded teams. Higher firepower, access to Ice Punch, and a threatening dual STAB make it way harder to exploit than Gigalith (and that thing's Sand Stream can be a double-edged sword on some teams) so I'm usually more inclined to use that over other, more passive SR setters. CB might also be cool right now but I haven't seen that in action a whole lot.
  • I feel Umbreon could go A+ in order to reflect how much of a staple it's become in this meta, the amount of special attackers it can come in on and the fact that it's pretty much the best Wish passer + cleric make it almost too good to pass up for bulky teams, and we all know how good bulky teams currently are.
  • This is purely theory since I rarely even face sun but Torkoal (and Venusaur by extension) could drop a bit perhaps, weather teams are extremely matchup-based, generally having highly favorable matchup against faster offensive teams, and again, the meta is pretty fat atm which makes sun seem suboptimal in a lot of scenarios.
  • Maybe drop Cresselia or some shit idk, it doesn't feel extremely threatening as a CM user and it also lost the niche of being the best Nidoqueen counter of all time, can still function well as an extremely bulky utility mon but it doesn't feel super splashable atm.
 

eren

break necks, i'm the chiropractor
is a Tiering Contributor
#34
any reason as to why archeops wasn't moved? it didn't get any opposing sentiments :pirate:

umbreon should move up, super splashable, great for bulkier teams, amazing team support in wish & heal bell. it loves this meta rn. speedy taunt toxic moonlight is also really nice at the moment :toast:
i also would like to suggest chesnaught rises up a rank to a based on the speedy taunt synthesis w/ rh set. this set is able to effectively pester offensive teams w spikes while preventing set up and defog. in fact, many of the current builds atm are quite weak to this guy. it's more splashable on the typical balance than one might think due to its amazing ability to counter gatr nicely while being a hazard setter.
anywho, i think rhyperior can stand to rise a subrank - the absence of nidoqueen from the meta makes it the premier rock setter in the meta due to its raw power, key resistances, and synergy with many offensive and defensive mons such as mantine and durant prime it to succeed in the meta.
speaking of durant, i agree with the proposed a- as its new subrank. it has tons of positives including its speed tier as both a scarfer and a hone claws sweeper (very effective with z crunch) although the misses really really set it back; particularly when considering scarf durant's ability to revenge the typical offensive threat. its power and its speed catapault it to a- quite easily but hustle really lets it down. i think a- is the highest it can go.
that being said, i agree with all the other slated nominations and moves already done except for the proposed zoroark drop. while it isn't splashable it is extremely versatile, powerful, and incredibly hard to wall. furthermore, the team support it provides in being an offensive mon is quite incredible simply due to its ability. while everyone knows about this, i'd like to elaborate on how truly potent zoroark is at the moment. disguising itself as a heracross, linoone, etc is just amazing for any offensive team, making it one of the best mind games in the game. sending in a supposed heracross on something it'd kill / force out usually while having a zoroark in the back is much more threatening in game than on paper and swings the momentum of so many games. and the amount of sets it has is quite unbelievable: band, specs, sd, np all are threatening at the moment.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#35
up to A
This is pretty warranted; Roserade's combination of Speed, power, typing, coverage, and support movepool are all extremely useful in allowing it to solidly perform its roles. Roserade's Water, Fairy, and Grass resistances, as well as its advantage against Rock- and Ground-types, give it a multitude of opportunities to either Spike up or simply start hitting the opponent's cores hard. Roserade is easily one of, if not the premier Spiker of the tier: it semi-combines Froslass's Speed and Chesnaught's resistances + longevity AND adds a very strong offensive punch, making it a truly fearsome Spikes user. From an offensive perspective, between Leaf Storm/Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and Technician Hidden Power Fire, Roserade is very capable of breaking through many cores in the tier, and the threat of Sleep Powder or even Extrasensory makes it even harder to reliably respond to. What's more, Roserade is not reliant on being carried by one move to corebreak like Seed Flare Shaymin is; its consistent raw power gives it a significant edge in reliability when it comes to harassing bulky cores. Needless to say, its offensive prowess is only complemented further by its Spiking abilities, putting on a lot more pressure. Probably the worst part when fighting a Roserade is that it can run many variations: Spikes + Sleep Powder is effective, 3 attacks + Spikes is effective, 3 attacks + Sleep Powder is effective, shit even a bulkier Spikes + Toxic/Synthesis variant which beats down all the notable hazard removers 1v1 can be effective, so you honestly can never be too sure on what kind of Roserade you're facing off the bat and thus makes it really difficult to stop right away. I never found fighting Roserade to be a smooth affair, because that mon always seems to do something.

up to A+
Salazzle's Speed tier and power are still disgusting, as is its ability to set up Nasty Plots for free on most of the tier's bulky Grass- and Fairy-types and nuke things with boosted Fire Blast or Acid Downpour. But we all know this already; what makes Salazzle frightening for me is that it has a free moveslot available which it can customize to adapt to metagame trends: Hidden Power Ice is basically just a luxury for Salazzle to hit Scarf Flygon on the switch or KO Flygon without the need to expend the Z-move (which already does 101.3 - 119.2% after +2), and one of Taunt's main uses is to shut down Pyukumuku, but it would seem that Pyuku is becoming irrelevant. In this case, Salazzle can consider more options, such as Toxic (especially Corrosion Toxic for Dragalge) to cripple Cresselia and Porygon2 and just wearing down all of Salazzle's counters, or Hidden Power Grass to wipe out Rhyperior, Quagsire, and the increasingly popular Seismitoad. Even Knock Off can be a quirky tech to wear down its counters by removing Leftovers (albeit to a less severe degree than Toxic), but can be especially devastating to Eviolite users such as Porygon2 and specially defensive Gligar, Gluttony Snorlax, or random Assault Vest users such as Goodra and Slowking. These options give Salazzle significantly improved mid-game presence, and although the non-offensive moves make Salazzle more reliant on hit-and-run, which isn't favorable due to its hazard weakness, Salazzle can still find room to set up due to its resistances and offensive presence, and I'd say these moves just make Salazzle more of a team player. To respond to Robert Alfons, I find it is perfectly possible to craft a team with a huge Salazzle weakness, especially with Salazzle's propensity to wear down its own checks and take advantage of clerics, particularly in the case of Sun teams.
 
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#36
Durant up to A-: Agree with this one, Durant can be very annoying to play against, only naturally slower than Salazzle, Espeon and Swellow, while this thing have 0 SpD, a lot of useful resistances and good Defense can allow it to set up Hone Claws and become very threatening, it can have all the coverage it want, Thunder Fang, Iron Head, Superpower, Crunch, Rock Slide, you can also run a Z-Move to have an accurate nuke to use once (or to get +2 Atk with Hone Claws), that being said, Durant is a great Choice Band user, while it's true that the accuracy of the moves is annoying, we have other Pokémon who have to rely on moves that miss often and are still very good (Special Sharpedo, Flygon, Focus Blast Zoroark, Megahorn Heracross, Shaymin), it's true that Durant be able to miss any move it run not only can be a great problem if you're using it, but is also a reason to make you more afraid of using it, it's also a good Scarf User, you can argue that have a Scarf user missing sucks, but that's also a risk when using Shaymin since you will be locked in Seed Flare almost always and Shaymin is still arguably the best Scarf user in the tier. Durant is very powerful and hard to deal with.

Roserade up to A: agree. I agree with Robert Alfons, Offensive Roserade is very powerful rn, Technician HP Fire is very helpful and Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb are also great, with a decent Speed, Sleep Powder can be very useful on a match while it also have Spikes

Salazzle up to to A+: As Punchshroom said, Salazzle is very powerful and have 1 slot that help it to get past it's checks, obviously you will never get past Gigalith, but most A+ Ranked Mons have a great Counter and this never made them less viable, and about what Robert Alfons said "oh shit, I just built my team and now I realize I just lose to x", I saw a lot of teams that allow Salazzle to setup once and then will have to make crazy doubles to force it to spend it's Z-Move in the wrong mon order to stop it, with so much resistances even with this bulk Salazzle can find a lot of opportunities to set up and start threatening the opposing team with very powerful STABs, and this customizable slot can allow Salazzle to get past or cripple some of its best checks, which is why a agree with this one.
 
#37
I think Durant deserves to go up to A+. While it suffers the same problem as always with the accuracy of it's moves, Durant is strong, fast and really versatile. On top of the already known All-Out-Attacker and Hone Claws set, Durant got a immensive buff with the inclusion of Z-Moves, allowing it to boost faster with Z-Hone Claws and having two great nukes in Z-Crunch and Z-Thunder Fang, which can OHKO Bulky Water Types and Crunch, which breaks through Doublade. Z-Moves work in combination with Hustle too. The combination of power, speed and versatility should be rewarded with the A- rank.
 
#38
Aye Seismitoad went up, anyways time to throw my two cents on some of these mons

Durant up to A- : Having a variety of sets means a lot, and Durant can tailor itself a bit to what a team needs, be it movewise or itemsive. Z-Hone Claws covers the accuracy problem and lets its sweep which is mighty fine (or can do Z-Crunch for more options), and the Scarf variation zooms through the entire tier unboosted. It's walled in part of its 4 moveslot syndrome, as it can't run Hone Claws and cover everything it needs, and being locked means defensive threats like Doublade or walls like Gligar come in relatively easy. Whoever said it has good defense and resistances, it's HP and Special Defensive ruin what it could tank; I thought this thing could take a +1 DD Waterfall from Feraligatr with its "defense", but nope. Abstain from promoting or disagreeing, as the pro and cons give me ambivalence.

Roserade up to A: Doing an analysis on it as we speak. Testing it out, I found it to be a mon no one prepares for like Reuniclus because of its usage. My favorite is using Sleep Powder + Spikes variation, as it gives me more opportunities to setup hazard stack and give my team a safe switch-in to setup or break (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-595208760 I feel this one reflects this point the best); however, as Punchshroom mentioned you can customize Roserade in a number of ways that suit your devious needs to put your opponents to rest, down to the Hidden Power. Support for it being A here, as it's main role of being an offensive spiker with good interchangeable offensive presence is phenomenal.

Bronzong down to B/B-: Zonger doesn't really has a reason why to be at B+. Sure, it can hit harder than standard Registeel with Gyro Ball or Heavy Slam, and it floats or doesn't melt as fast, but as its main role for Stealth Rock setter it doesn't really have much of an advantage. Less bulk than Registeel as mentioned before, Psychic secondary type being a liability for it, and a tighter movepool to work with makes this a bell you don't want to ring alot. Support for this downgrade, B-.

Pangoro up to B - Breaks up bulkier teams better than Heracross imo due to Fighting + Dark STAB only being resisted by Fairy, but not as much scare factor in part of Speed and immediate power. Paired with Mold Breaker, Unaware users on Stall teams can't stop it and should be prepared to sack something when it's at +2 unless you play insanely. Nothing truly switches into it without taking at least a chunk, but at the same time Pangoro doesn't really switchin to much without getting punished somehow. Support for it being B here.

Noivern up to C+ - Faced it once, and it does has some potential being here. In addition to the bulkier Taunt set mentioned by Robert Alfons, it could still run a choice item, have a better coverage movepool, and do some Switcheroo to cripple a bulkier Pokemon which Swellow can't do. Support for it being C+ here.

I'll also promote slurmz's Chesnaught rise. The Taunt set shuts down Defoggers that would otherwise come in to remove its Spikes (just watch out for Air Slash Mantine, uncommon though), and it's Wood Hammer scares all of the spinners minus Dhelmise, which has a losing battle against it as Naught has recovery, Torkoal which is never recommended to spin for Sun anyways, and Cryogonal which is rarely seen. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-590924107 vs Dundies in a roomtour, my Chesnaught with predictions and momentum is able to keep Spikes up by shutting down Gligar and key defensive mons that would otherwise preserve his side from the constant switching. I find it easy to fit it into teams that would love to have a more consistent hazard stacker, and acts as a great check to Rock-type Stealth Rocks setters that tend to lead, Feraligatr and Sharpedo in a pinch.
 
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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
RU Co-Leader
#39
I have some nominations of my own to make. Apparently fagtron made these noms already but I ignore him anyways.


Umbreon A -> A+ Umbreon is basically the best and most important defensive Pokemon in the tier right now for balance teams, while also being functional on stall. Umbreon checks essentially every special attacker in the tier barring Specs Gardevoir and Specs Kommo-o (and it still kinda checks the latter cause they never click focus blast and if they do they don't hit :M). The best part about Umbreon though is that, in 4 moveslots, it not only manages to wall special attackers, but it makes it impossible for Physical Attackers to set up on it (shoutouts STAB Foul Play and good natural physical bulk), and supports its team with both Wish and Heal Bell. I really don't have too much to say but Umbreon, to me is significantly better than every mon in A right now, and imo is probably better than every A+ pokemon barring Feraligatr, Flygon, and Snorlax.


Cresselia A+ -> A Cresselia walls over half the tier but unlike Umbreon, a Pokemon that is capable of supporting its team with Wish / Heal Bell support and not let in a ton of things for free thanks to foul play, Cresselia is kind of a do nothing mon. You can run either Thunder Wave or Toxic, which is fine and Cresselia is great at spreading status, but I don't think that niche is enough for a Pokemon in A+. As a Calm Mind user there is absolutely no reason to use it over Reuniclus which fares equally well against Dark Types while not losing to Status. Cresselia was originally A+ because it was basically the only real switch into Nidoqueen when it was in the tier, but with Nidoqueen moving to UU its niche has been narrowed to being a blanket check to most things below A+ rank because it either straight up loses or washes against all of the S and A+ rank mons (I guess Skill Swap Toxic beats Reuniclus but otherwise its a loss / wash to all), but if you're struggling against the best mons in the tier, it doesn't seem right for it to be A+ rank.
 
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MrAldo

Bird Enthusiast
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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#40
Gonna give some life to this thread

Salazzle to A+: Certainly a meta defining Pokemon that I feel deserves a spot alongside Pokemon like Snorlax and Feraligatr. This Pokemon can easily adapt itself to many metagame trends by simply using a different coverage move, like with the rise of hp grass salazzle becoming basically the standard, and it has the sufficient coverage options to nail its checks, and the power and speed to basically put it work in virtually any matchup. That in conjunction with its ability to setup against a good amount of Pokemon despite its frailty makes it a top Pokemon in my eyes. Obvious weaknesses include lack of immediate offensive power (since it needs the z-move to be as effective as she is) and rocks weakness but she can easily patch up the shortcomings. Great Pokemon (it isnt broken)

Roserade to A: Really competent grass-type thanks to its access to Spikes, sleep powder, and notable coverage options that makes switch into a notable annoyance. Really efficient Pokemon despite the presence of Pokemon like Dragalge, Salazzle (which can be nailed by Extrasensory) and the plethora of special walls since it bring more to the table than just breaking power. And it is far more effective than stuff like Florges imo. Even scarf sets can pull off its weight!

Durant to A-: The Pokemon that you either love or hate, no in between. When the accuracy of this Pokemon doesnt betray you, it can be a ridiculous threat. Scarf and hone claws sets have been gaining a lot of traction on tournaments like RUPL, and for a good reason since it makes for a potent wallbreaker, and a particular effective cleaner thanks to its unique speed tier being one of the few things that can outspeed modest venusaur under Sun. I think it is a really solid pick for a offensive steel-type (not like there are many but still) and yeah, I think it deserves to rise to A-. Good mon, especially well trained ;v

I really want to nominate Mesprit to at least C, but I only have 1 solid replay of it doing something. SIGH! Gonna save the post Im gonna use to properly nominate it when I gather enough replays.

"Since Nidoqueen departure, offensive options for SR users have been pretty limiting since nothing could compare to what the Queen brought to the table. Not like Im implying that Mesprit is a Nidoqueen replacement, or that it can fill its shoes, but one thing that Mesprit can do similar to Nidoqueen is threaten most hazard removers by itself, and that is extremely valuable for offense. BoltBeam coverage let it keep rocks against the most prominent defoggers in Mantine and Gligar, while Electrium Z gives it a great coverage option to handle many potential switch-ins in a similar vein to Reuniclus, and to not miss the Thunder on a mantine ofc"

Cheers!
 
#41
grabs defibrillator The thread is dead, SAVE IT!

Salazzle to A+ = Agree

This thing is the premier choice for a Fire type in the tier and its not hard to see why at all. Its a glass cannon, sure, but a damn good one. Poison and Fire are both great types in the meta right now, and Poisonium allows it to easily break through checks like Reuniclus and Milo. Its speed and power are absolutely disgusting, its like the second fastest mon in the A/B ranks losing only to Swellow, but like DrAldo said the biggest pro to Salazzle is being adaptable by just running a coverage move. Dragon Pulse, HP Grass, you name it, this thing can kill the top mons in the meta with its fourth slot. Oh and RIP Taunt users lol. rise ofc

Roserade to A = Agree

I used this thing in Alpha/Beta and wondered why it wasn't highly revered then, nice to see its getting some praise now. This thing packs a punch, and it gets exactly what it needs to dish out damage on the opponent: Great STABs, effectively Flamethrower, and a fourth utility slot of choice. Access to spikes + sleep powder gives roserade a name for itself as unlike Chesnaught it can cripple with sleep and set up 3 layers of spikes almost freely, and also unlike naught it's not passive and can deal serious damage to things that would give chesnaught trouble like moltres and salazzle with extrasensory. rise

Durant to A- = See my post on the first page for my thoughts.
 

phantom

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RU Co-Leader
#42
updates:

Bewear added to A-

Good mon overall and checks a couple of troublesome Pokemon, but it's otherwise terribly slow, KOed by a large chunk of the offensive meta, and its STABs aren't too spammable given number of immunes/resists. Not having Knock Off like Heracross and Pangoro do makes it a lot more prediction reliant, so this is an okay starting point for now.

Pangoro up to B+

A bit of a jump, but the most recent suspect test showed just how good Pangoro is at dismantling defensive teams, and for something that's so hard to cover, B+ seemed like a better move.

Salazzle up to A+

Most people were in favor of this. Salazzle's overall ability to dismantle many defensive teams, but still remain relatively consistent due its amazing speed makes it one of the best offensive mons in the meta. Despite how frail it is, it can actually set up pretty easily bc of its great resists, and due to the incredible power of z sludge wave, it really limits the number of checks and makes it a bit tricky to cover.

Meloetta up to B+

It wasn't specifically discussed in this thread, but it was brought up and most people who I talked to seemed to agree that Meloetta's offensive CM set with Psychic / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball was at the very least on the same level as Hoopa, which is in B. However, because of Meloetta's greater speed, allowing it to outpace Feraligatr, Heracross, and Adamant Flygon, it's far more consistent. Previously underexplored Pokemon, but I think people are starting to realize just how good it is.

Pyukumuku Unranked

Outclassed by Quagsire. Not much reason to use it. Most people agreed.

Cresselia down to A:

Majority of physical attackers carry SE coverage, which makes Cresselia a lot easier to overpower in this meta. Lack of Nidoqueen also hurts it since it loses its best niche. Very passive overall and nearly useless vs stall, so moving it down was appropriate.

Froslass down to B+

Wasn't discussed, but Froslass offense has taken a bit of dip recently and is a lot less consistent due to the fact they have to compromise by using slower or more passive SR users. A lot of faster Pokemon in the tier such as Salazzle or multi-hit attackers like Rhyperior are capable of limiting it to one layer also.

Rhyperior up to A-

It's one of the better SR users in the tier right now and checks a good portion of the meta, including Swellow, Reuniclus if using Megahorn, and Honchkrow. Not passive either thanks to its great attack stat and is an overall splashable mon in the current meta.

Roserade up to A

One of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier. Sleep makes it quite difficult to deal with since conventional checks can be taken out of commission and denied their recovery moves. Its good speed tier also puts it above several wallbreakers and it has quite a bit of utility with Spikes too.

Bronzong down to B

It's significantly worse than Registeel in this meta due to the fact that it beats a lot less Pokemon is vulnerable to the few Pursuit users in the tier. Still has a good niche in countering the likes of Flygon and Gardevoir, however, so B is fine.

Noivern and Araquanid to C+:

Noivern is the best offensive Shaymin check in the tier and has good offensive synergy with wallbreakers such as Salazzle, given that it can wear down Salazzle's checks with Draco Meteor. While it's mostly overshadowed by Swellow, having the fastest Draco Meteor in the tier and possessing good defensive synergy does give it some niche. Araquanid wasn't discussed, but it does have a niche because of its excellent wallbreaking potential and good special bulk, which lets it stomach most neutral special hits. The toxic + infestation set is also good at taking out nearly all bulky water checks aside from refresh milotic, allowing it to spam its extremely powerful liquidation.

Florges down to A-

WithTect sets are horrid and get overwhelmed very quickly, whereas CM sets while good, face a lot of competition from Comfey, which has priority Draining Kiss that is far more important in the current meta for checking Pangoro/Heracross.

discussion points:

Sharpedo down to A+
Dragalge up to A
Honchkrow down to B+
Slowbro down to B
Sableye down to B-/C+
Toxicroak down to B-/C+
Whimsicott down to B-
Espeon down to C+
Sneasel down to C+/C
Donphan down to C
Dodrio Unranked
Jolteon down to C-
Uxie up to C+
Cryogonal down to C
Emboar Unranked
Ribombee Unranked
Vikavolt Unranked

Won't be making another update until the suspect is over at the very least, but I'd like to encourage everyone to continue the discussion until then.
 
#43
Pangoro B- --> A-

Pangoro is a HUGE offensive threat, seen that he can 2HKO almost the entire metagame with easy prediction, with both of his sets: Swords Dance and Choice Band.

Having really good offensive stab moves, and having coverage moves to hit his possibles switch-ins (Like Gunk Shot for Florges, Comfey, Whimiscott and others, Ice Punch for Gligar and Chesnut, Thunder Punch for Mantine, and Bullet Punch to be able to revenge kill weakened and faster foes).

Concluding, the panda is a problem to bulkier teams, being a really good wallbreaker.
 
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#44

B down to B-/C+: STRONGLY DISAGREE

Sableye has always been an incredibly underrated Pokemon in SUMO RU in my eyes, and I find it a large shame that everyone has been giving it such a bad rep lately. It's in no way B- material, and C+ is pure asinine. Sableye has done nothing wrong. In fact, the meta has only been kinder to it lately due to Florges decreasing in viability and more Will-o-Wisp weak Pokemon and Rhyperior increasing in usage. Prankster Taunt is an extremely underrated asset that no other RU Pokemon has, it's basically able to stop the opponent from setting up Stealth Rock every time, and no, I'm not exaggerating when I say this. I know from plenty of experience. Take a look at S through A+. The only Stealth Rock setters there are Gigalith, Gligar, Registeel and Rhyperior. Gligar is completely fucked by Sableye with it shutting Gligar down with it disliking Will-o-Wisp and losing it's Eviolite, Sableye beats Gligar easily. Gigalith and Rhyperior also hate Will-o-Wisp and since neither of these Pokemon have recovery, Sableye can easily stall them out. Registeel fares a little better against Sableye due to it not having any attacks affected by Will-o-Wisp plus the ability to cripple Sableye with status, but crippling it with status is all Registeel can really do to Sableye, as Sableye still chips Registeel down with Will-o-Wisp due to lack of recovery and Sableye's ability to knock it's Leftovers off, therefore stalling it out. Speaking of Will-o-Wisp, any physical attacker that's not Heracross, Sharpedo or Honchkrow despises it. I get that that's 2 S rank Pokemon and an A- Pokemon, but take a look at the higher rankings. Bewear, Escavalier, Kommo-o, the aforementioned Stealth Rockers, and everything Pokemon in A+ bar Salazzle and Shaymin hate Will-o-Wisp. Sableye's also the only defensive user of Knock Off bar Venusaur I guess, and it's still extremely useful, I'd actually say it's a little more useful than in most other tiers due to the lack of Mega Evolutions bar Glalie. If Umbreon's the reason for it dropping then I'm not buying it, as the two Pokemon essentially do nothing to each other. I don't think Bronzong's downfall is a reason to drop it either, as the downfall of Bronzong means the rise of Registeel which as I said before, Sableye doesn't have too many problems with. Overall there is absolutely no reason to drop Sableye. I actually think it should rise to B+. It prevents Stealth Rock like no other Pokemon can and while other people may not feel this, I don't find a defensive team the same without it.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#45

B down to B-/C+: STRONGLY DISAGREE

Sableye has always been an incredibly underrated Pokemon in SUMO RU in my eyes, and I find it a large shame that everyone has been giving it such a bad rep lately. It's in no way B- material, and C+ is pure asinine. Sableye has done nothing wrong. In fact, the meta has only been kinder to it lately due to Florges decreasing in viability and more Will-o-Wisp weak Pokemon and Rhyperior increasing in usage. Prankster Taunt is an extremely underrated asset that no other RU Pokemon has, it's basically able to stop the opponent from setting up Stealth Rock every time, and no, I'm not exaggerating when I say this. I know from plenty of experience. Take a look at S through A+. The only Stealth Rock setters there are Gigalith, Gligar, Registeel and Rhyperior. Gligar is completely fucked by Sableye with it shutting Gligar down with it disliking Will-o-Wisp and losing it's Eviolite, Sableye beats Gligar easily. Gigalith and Rhyperior also hate Will-o-Wisp and since neither of these Pokemon have recovery, Sableye can easily stall them out. Registeel fares a little better against Sableye due to it not having any attacks affected by Will-o-Wisp plus the ability to cripple Sableye with status, but crippling it with status is all Registeel can really do to Sableye, as Sableye still chips Registeel down with Will-o-Wisp due to lack of recovery and Sableye's ability to knock it's Leftovers off, therefore stalling it out. Speaking of Will-o-Wisp, any physical attacker that's not Heracross, Sharpedo or Honchkrow despises it. I get that that's 2 S rank Pokemon and an A- Pokemon, but take a look at the higher rankings. Bewear, Escavalier, Kommo-o, the aforementioned Stealth Rockers, and everything Pokemon in A+ bar Salazzle and Shaymin hate Will-o-Wisp. Sableye's also the only defensive user of Knock Off bar Venusaur I guess, and it's still extremely useful, I'd actually say it's a little more useful than in most other tiers due to the lack of Mega Evolutions bar Glalie. If Umbreon's the reason for it dropping then I'm not buying it, as the two Pokemon essentially do nothing to each other. I don't think Bronzong's downfall is a reason to drop it either, as the downfall of Bronzong means the rise of Registeel which as I said before, Sableye doesn't have too many problems with. Overall there is absolutely no reason to drop Sableye. I actually think it should rise to B+. It prevents Stealth Rock like no other Pokemon can and while other people may not feel this, I don't find a defensive team the same without it.
Disagree with this post. Prankster nerf really hurt it a lot. One of Sableye's best traits was its ability to function as a stallbreaker, but it can no longer do that effectively in this metagame because Umbreon is near ubiquitous on RU Stall. Furthermore, Sableye is complete dead weight against Sharpedo and Zoroark, two of the top Dark types in the tier. The latter is more noteworthy as it can bait Sableye into using WoW or Taunt under Illusion and set-up on it easily. Sableye is in a bad place right now, and keeping it at B doesn't really make sense to me.
 
#47
Exploud: Ok, I don't feel Exploud should be ranked, but there's a couple of aspects I haven't seen brought up. The primary one being that it's a slow wallbreaker that offers NO DEFENSIVE SYNERGY whatsoever to the team its on. This was its biggest issue in ORAS and while nothing has changed in that regard, its competition has. Back in ORAS, Exploud not only only had to compete with Chatot for Boomburst spam, but it also didn't have to contend with Gigalith. Yes, the same Pokemon that hard counters Swellow pretty easily stops Exploud. You're forced to run Focus Blast and Fire Blast to nail down Gigalith and Escavalier. On the other hand, Swellow can simply U-turn out of Gigalith to build momentum rather than risking Focus Blast while Heat Wave is more accurate than Fire Blast (only slightly, but every little bit helps) against Escavalier. Swellow's much higher Speed tier is very crucial as this allows it to outspeed aforementioned wallbreakers and even revenge kill sweepers such as Durant, which Exploud can't do. As if this weren't enough, there are simply better Pokemon to use on Sticky Web. Overall, Sticky Web teams generally consist of Webs user, Rocker, Hoopa, 2-3 abusers. In a tier with Heracross, Goodra, Honchkrow, and Feraligatr, it's very difficult to justify using Exploud on such teams. And these are the only teams that give Exploud something close to the Speed that Swellow has.

As for the arguments in the last post Thomas_633 , there's a few flaws. First and foremost, you forget Kommo-o has access to Soundproof, an ability that will completely negate damage from Boomburst (sound move) It has very usable bulk, usable resistances to Dark, Grass, Water, and Electric and while the Clanging Scales defense drop can be annoying at times, it's typically choiced. Like with any other slower Choiced attacker, you're getting forced out after a kill most times anyway. No big advantage for Exploud there.
Yanmega only really wishes it had coverage on Steel-types. Tinted Lens boosted Choice Specs attacks are nothing to mess with, and while Yanmega may be difficult to support due to its complete reliance on hazard control to function, it at least has usable resistances to Fighting and Grass attacks while having a very usable Speed tier.
I already mentioned issues with Sticky Web, although you sort of brought those up yourself without realizing it I feel like. Again, hard to justify using Exploud on Sticky Web when there's better options overall and you've got 2-3 slots for strict abusers of Sticky Web.

Maybe there's something I missed, but I feel like I'd want another wallbreaker in almost every situation. Swellow has sheer Speed, Heracross dominates with Sticky Web, Kommo-o brings synergy, and Yanmega yields more overall rewards if I'm going to cater a team toward a wallbreaker. I just don't feel there's a spot for Exploud right now
i am a god
 
#48
Pangoro B- --> A-

Pangoro is a HUGE offensive threat, seen that he can 2HKO almost the entire metagame with easy prediction, with both of his sets: Swords Dance and Choice Band.

Having really good offensive stab moves, and having coverage moves to hit his possibles switch-ins (Like Gunk Shot for Florges, Comfey, Whimiscott and others, Ice Punch for Gligar and Chesnut, Thunder Punch for Mantine, and Bullet Punch to be able to revenge kill weakened and faster foes).

Concluding, the panda is a problem to bulkier teams, being a really good wallbreaker.
Can we please hop off of pangoro's dick for 2 seconds? Also, no, i think B+ is fine as pangoro is still slow
 

-Tsunami-

Lonely Feather
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#49
I would like to nominate Araquanid, colloquially known as 'The Spider', for B+ rank.
Now, we all know this Pokemon started out as a sort of meme; it was something the ladder kids used because the RU ladder is generally sub-par. However, one set and one set alone has set Araquanid apart from the pack, catapulting its viability to new soaring heights. The set in question is the following:

Araquanid (M) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 96 HP / 216 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Spider Web
- Toxic
- Rest

Created by FlamingVictini, this set takes full advantage of the spider's greatest asset: Water Bubble-boosted STAB Liquidation. Splash Plate adds even more power to this already ridiculous move, which also has a 20% to drop the foe's defense. Liquidation from this Araquanid is extremely difficult to switch into, and almost anything that doesn't resist it will be blasted away quite easily. We all know (especially me) how bulky Registeel is. And yet...
216+ Atk Splash Plate Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is immense damage for a neutral hit on Registeel, even on the physical side. With an attack this strong, Araquanid can strike fear in the hearts of the majority of Pokemon in this tier. Where this set really shines, however, is its ability to punish the few Liquidation-resists in the tier. The two most common Water-resists in the tier, Mantine (without Air Slash) and Milotic, are devastated by this set, as Spider Web + Toxic easily traps and kills them. The given Speed EVs allow Araquanid to outrun Umbreon, leaving one less threat to this monstrosity. The strength of this set is its ability to be exceedingly difficult for the fatter teams that are running rampant throughout the metagame to switch into; most of these teams rely on Pokemon such as Milotic to handle Water-types, as Feraligatr and Sharpedo are exceedingly threatening in their own rights. Rest allows Araquanid to heal up, and can be complemented by one of the plethora of clerics in this tier in Umbreon, Diancie, or Florges. With extremely bulky balance being one of, if not the most, common archetype in the metagame, and Pokemon such as Mantine and Milotic being staples on these types of builds, Araquanid is in prime position to take advantage of these trends and shatter any fragile hopes the opposition had of stopping this monstrosity. Stall teams such as my own build also have no choice but to resign when faced by this demon's icy stare. It has been popularized in tournaments such as RUPL by TDK, and more and more tournament players have taken notice of how underrated the spider really is. I think that Araquanid is clearly deserving of a rise to B+ rank.
-RUTLlity: Water Bubble EVs: 96 HP / 216 Atk / 196 Spe Adamant Nature - Liquidation - Spider Web - Toxic - Rest
 
#50
Araquanid's Liquidation hitting a super effective target (2017) (colorized)



But, in regards to Sableye, it deserves to drop. (C+ isn't a good placing for it imo, like is it really on the level of ferroseed? lmao). Basically, with the arguable best mon in the tier, or at least top 2, benefiting from your prankster will-o, and dark types being prominent as a whole rn, sab doesn't really deserve to stay B. While Florges usage has declined, this causes rises in usage in things like Shark and Umbreon, which absolutely wall Sableye and contribute to a match on their own incredibly well. its just generally too deadweight in matches to do much when hera and at least one dark type are on 99% of teams. Drop to B-
 
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