RU Viability Rankings

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#76
I mean, most of the tier is slower than max Speed Cryogonal anyways, and its bulk allows it to set up triple screens vs faster threats that can't dent it enough and some slower threats that are super effective as well. Of the things that can actually threaten it, it only underspeeds Salazzle (which it can still at least get Veil up on, as long as you don't let it set up on Aurorus by clicking Encore t1), Durant, and Aerodactyl. Outside of that and weather setters, it's actually rather consistent at getting up at least Veil + a screen if not all three, and that enables SO much harder than just AVeil itself. It can also threaten Mantine with Freeze-Dry, unlike Slash which just gives it free Defog immediately. I've also laddered with it a lot, with a "subpar" team, and I can confidently say that it's a lot more effective than Slash, especially if you don't play it like a brainless idiot like I did lmao

I even have some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-625476115 - unkillable Linoone
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-625540465 - Cryo gets up two screens in the face of a Doublade
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-625570383 - lmao
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-625596826 - it took a fuckin moonblast and a devastating drake, cmon now

I understand that these aren't the most high level of replays lmao, but it should get the general point and concept across - Cryo sets up screens pretty consistently and 4x defenses for ANY amount of turns on an offense team is utter absurdity lol


So, all in all, I support Cryo moving up to at least B if not higher because this is really, really strong and it hasn't even been optimized yet.

On an unrelated note, supporting Registeel -> S, Melo to A- and Quag to A-.
 
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#77
Nominating Servine for C-.

Pretty respectable bulk w/ an eviolite (60/75/75), workable speed tier (83 isn't the worst), and Leaf Storm hurts even coming off of 60 SpA because of the free Nasty Plot. Can really snowball against fatter/bulkier teams that can't 1-shot it, thanks to free boosts as it fires off 130 BP STAB Leaf Storms, and heals itself with Giga Drain once at +6. Obviously has its faults, can't really break Registeel or some of the other really fat resists in the tier, like Dragalge or Goodra, and has really really awful Special Attack prior to any boosts. All around, at least worthy of a "usable in RU" ranking.

Here's some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-623119141 - Omastar gets hazards up, weakening Golisopod for a Servine sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-623106189 - Servine sweeps a team after the faster threats are eliminated.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-627090173 - Servine 6-0's a slower team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-627079248 - Servine sweeps a slower team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rususpecttest-619421860 - Servine weakens bronzong and sets up for Tyrantrum to clean up.
 
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#78
So I was basically holding off til we got to the tier shift to nominate any changes, and the drops we got as well as mantine leaving does change up a fair bulk of what I was originally going to suggest, but there are a few noms I'd like to make that I think are worth changing regardless of our drops and loss of Mantine.

First off:
Nominating Nidoqueen to regain her previous S rank / A+ whichever it was - I don't think we need to waste time on this one, Nidoqueen is going to be a force once again as an offensive and defensive rocker that can essentially hit like a nuke due to her coverage and ability. Losing Mantine means she no long has to run T-Bolt to cover the stingray and that frees up her to one more moveslot to whatever you want to run again, and teams will once again be built entirely around her because of how good she is. We can't really make any decisions on any of the other drops til the meta settles for a while, but the new drops have very little effect on Queen overall (she beats all of them anyway with only Mega-Aboma with Shard scaring her), and she'll threaten most of the tier again like she did, so I feel this is one that we can auto-place without worrying about it being too soon.

Nominating Slowbro to drop to B / B- and a potential Slowking rise to B - Gonna be straight forward on this one and say that the meta does no favors what so ever to Slowbro and that it should be on the same level or so as it's brethren Slowking. RU is filled with more special attackers and as such I find that a Specially Defensive Pivot is better to try to fit on a team than a Physical one that can set up a CM where as it would take a lot of damage when unboosted against many of our common offensive type of Pokemon. As well Water / Psychic as a defensive typing does no favors for either one when our top threats on any given team are Dark and Grass pokemon which stacks extra weaknesses as opposed to running singular defensive Psychic or Water types. Not to mention I don't even know when the last time I saw either one used in any format for tournaments or ladder, I don't think either are super bad as they can still fulfill a job role, I think Slowking is a better pivot than Slowbro and have felt that for a while and a meeting of both going to B rank, or Slowbro joining Slowking in B- rank fits where both stand as similar mons with just slightly different stats.

I had two other ones I was gonna make here too, but now I'm second guessing them, so I think I'll just leave it at these ones and play the meta out before making the suggestions.
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor
#79
Agreeing with Quagsire rise. With aurora viel on the rise Quagsire can really stop them with a curse up and other teams set up sweepers.

A nomination of my own Moltres to A / A+ Moltres can really put pressure on all playstyles thanks to its typing, bulk and ability pressure xp. Offensively it can hurt A lot of the meta and what it can't it can toxic a switch in or u turn to something that can get momentum. Also nomming a rise for defogging screens it does well vs screens and sun.

Not the best post but yea Moltres is just antimeta
 
#80
Comfey: A- -> B+/B
Setting up has become even harder for it with the omnipresence of Nidoqueen, and now that Registeel is one of the best walls in the meta right now it just can't do much anywhere. It lacks the raw power to do anything outside of revenge kill a weakened sweeper (Flygon, Zoroark, etc.) but to anything that it isn't super effective against it just can't nab the kill. +3 priority Draining Kiss/Synthesis allows it to prolong its life a bit, but all it really ends up doing is stalling itself out.

idk what else I should include, it's just a bad pokemon rn bc it's main merit (+3 prio Draining Kiss) just isn't enough in this meta.
 
#81
Now that Machamp is RU, I'd like to nominate it to a rank.

Machamp: UR to C/C+
Machamp might not be as good as the other fighting types in tier, (Bewear and Pangoro) But it does have a solid niche as a bulky Guts wallbreaker. With a Sky high attack stat and decent 90/80/85 bulk, it can often times get at least one kill or at very least dent the opposing team. Fighting type is also great right now in a meta that is dominated by Zoroark and Sharpedo. It is also a solid candidate for web teams to make the most out of it's mediocre speed. It has solid coverage options as well, like Facade, which hits most things neutrally off of a +1 130 base attack stat, not to mention the move has 140 base power, meaning this move will do heavy damage to anything that doesn't resist it. It also gets access to knock off to deal with pesky psychic types, Close combat as its main STAB move, and bullet punch for priority to revenge kill and pick off of things weak to it. It has some other decent options too like Fire punch, Stone edge, Payback, etc. It hits a lot of things in the tier very, very hard and has value in the current metagame and should definitely receive a ranking.
 
#82
Now that Machamp is RU, I'd like to nominate it to a rank.

Machamp: UR to C/C+
Machamp might not be as good as the other fighting types in tier, (Bewear and Pangoro) But it does have a solid niche as a bulky Guts wallbreaker. With a Sky high attack stat and decent 90/80/85 bulk, it can often times get at least one kill or at very least dent the opposing team. Fighting type is also great right now in a meta that is dominated by Zoroark and Sharpedo. It is also a solid candidate for web teams to make the most out of it's mediocre speed. It has solid coverage options as well, like Facade, which hits most things neutrally off of a +1 130 base attack stat, not to mention the move has 140 base power, meaning this move will do heavy damage to anything that doesn't resist it. It also gets access to knock off to deal with pesky psychic types, Close combat as its main STAB move, and bullet punch for priority to revenge kill and pick off of things weak to it. It has some other decent options too like Fire punch, Stone edge, Payback, etc. It hits a lot of things in the tier very, very hard and has value in the current metagame and should definitely receive a ranking.
I would argue for even higher, like B/B+. Guts is huge for it, and its raw power, plus excellent coverage with CC/Knock/Facade, and even priority in Bullet Punch makes it an great wallbreaker
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#83
I would argue for even higher, like B/B+. Guts is huge for it, and its raw power, plus excellent coverage with CC/Knock/Facade, and even priority in Bullet Punch makes it an great wallbreaker
I agree with you here. Machampbis a solid addition to RU and Guts gives it thecraw power to challenge Pangoro the leading Fighting type. But B- is the rank I'd place it for now.
 
#84
I feel chesnaught should rise to a, or maybe even a+. Spikes balance is arguably the best play style in this meta, and chester is prob the most important mon for these teams. Being a spikes setter that can beat all common forms of removal is absolutely huge, and mantine is gone now so not even the occasional air slash mantine can prevent chestnaught from getting spikes up. Also being one of the most reliable stops to gatr, physical shark, zydog (still technically banned but everyone knows it's getting freed) and snorlax is really fucking nice.

Not going to comment on anything else in detail but I think machamp should be b+, queen s and aboma a+.
 
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#85
Yeah, imo Chesnaught should definitely rise. Spikes stack is absolutely beautiful at the moment, turning a lot of 2HKOs into OHKOs and giving so much team support to important sweepers and cleaners. Not to mention it checks a shit ton of the offensive meta, such as physical Shark, Gatr, post Z-move Flygon, and variants of Pangoro. Like said, Mantine going leaves Chesnaught much, much freer to get up Spikes, and while we did gain another form of hazard removal in Tsareena it faces competition from Chester itself as a defensive-ish grass and is easily defeated by a lot of mons that can benefit from Spikes and are therefore good teammates for naught.


She's back, my fellow RUers. While she's not meta-warping and insane this time, she still wholeheartedly deserves S rank and is on the level of at least Zoro, and maybe salazzle and shark too. Nidoqueen's typing allows it to check many popular threats and defensive glues like Dragalge, Doublade, and others, and you cannot switch into this monster by virtue of literally only its STABs and Ice Beam. Queen's probably our best rocker rn too, offering a ton of offensive utility and, unlike Registeel, can slam through things and consistently set up rocks. Mantine leaving is also incredible for it as she no longer has to run TBolt to hit it and can set up rocks way more freely. S please.

Imo this birb deserves A/A-, but A- seems more right to me. Decid is a great cleaner and hazard remover, cleaning up weakened teams by virtue of its very powerful Z-move and priority, albeit it being kinda weak. SD sets make or break Decidueye, pummeling through walls or usual checks such as Registeel and Nidoqueen with Arrow Raid and picking off weakened mons with +2 sucker is really nice (large chance to OHKO Salazzle after rocks, shark basically dies to LO after, etc.) It can even run some cool lures like Brave Bird for chester and roost is really nice so it can wallbreak pretty consistently throughout a match. things that may keep it out of A tho are its speed (doesn't outspeed max speed nido which is sad) and lack of power on sucker after the boost, as well as a slight bought of 4MSS between mostly roost and sucker punch.

Easily an A+ mon, no question. The amount of power aboma packs is actually insane, 2HKOing a wide, wide majority of the tier bar like Doublade. Aboma can contribute to its team every match and punch holes in any team by virtue of a 100% accurate Blizzard and an almighty 120 BP Grass STAB. Ice Shard is also amazing just due to being a nice emergency check to a lot of boosters like Flygon and picking off Ice-weak threats faster than aboma (but tbh what isn't faster than it) such as roserade and shaymin. aboma's basically just an incredible wallbreaker that will allow one to either pick off or destroy the opposing team and help other teammates like shark come in later. What's holding it back from S is the speed and the fact that most popular mons have coverage to kill it easily (Shaymin lives an ice shard and hp fires, things like that). but aboma's sheer power and amazing punching-hole ability combined with its amazing STABs and even ok bulk put it easily in A+.

lol long post also free zydoge
 
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#86
: A- > A or A+
Chesnaught defines a playstyle pretty much single-handedly, the fast taunt set stops Gligar in its tracks while annoying/shutting down pokemon like Registeel and Umbreon, and in general the best Spikes setter in the tier by far for those reasons. It does this while still being able to check some threats like Sharpedo and Flygon, which admittedly makes it easily pressured sometimes, but that's a flaw I'm willing to forgive simply because it does its job really well at setting up spikes and in general being a good pivot for balance or spike stacking offense. Taunting Gligar is probably the reason it's so good.

: UR > B or B+
There is literally not a single Pokemon I can think of on stall that takes two hits from this and still lives. What gives it a niche over Bewear and Pangoro is that with guts and flame orb, it's immune to toxic and therefore can't be pressured as easily. It does have the same flaws as them though, which are being slow, but also it's easier to pressure thanks to burn damage, and unlike Bewear doesn't have bulk that lets it check some key pokemon. Still I feel like pressuring stall so much and being immune to Toxic thanks to flame orb is a big enough niche to land it in that rank.

: B+ > A-
Quagsire is a catch-all check to a lot of shit in the tier including but not limited to Durant, Bewear, Doublade, Sharpedo, SD Zoro, DD Flygon, Curse Lax, and soon-to-be zydog. This is self explanatory imo and I agree with previous posts nomming it to rise.

&
: A- to B+ or B
The new meta doesn't really favour them, especially with the introduction of Nidoqueen. They're too easily pressured by a lot of common Pokemon now and I think most people would agree with them dropping.

Might be a bit too early to nom the new drops, but for what its worth nidoqueen is S imo for obvious reasons that everyone knows lul, they haven't changed since the last time she was here. Cryogonal probably deserves a rise also, to B- or B possibly. It having Knock Off is really good to cripple a possible incoming registeel or doublade.
 
#87
Chiming in that I'd be on board with the following noms:

Chesnaught to A : I think A rank does it justice in how textbook Chesnaught does it's job. Fast Taunt is a vital support for teams looking to shut down bulky styles relying on toxic / hazard removal through defog / bulky set up Pokemon / bulky and slow hazard setters, and can be threatening back with a powerful wood hammer. Not to mention even before the shifts I felt a little creativity inspiring and Chesnaught is actually a really fun mon to build an offensive set for. Drain Punch/Wood Hammer being the only moves people ever run, most people aren't expecting to run into a SD / EQ / Hammer / Drain Chesnaught which has been hilarious for luring in Salazzle or Dragalge among others who think they get a free turn against Chester, as well having an adequate enough speed tier to be able to handle slower offensive teams, along with a natural bulk that makes it difficult for some Pokemon to outright one shot unless they pick at a weakness.

Quagsire to A- : I normally wouldn't think to place Quaggy this high, and figured as a solid support mon B+ was more than fitting, but then I noticed the new trend on the ladder a core composed of Registeel, Umbreon, Moltres, and Quaggy and it was then I learned I actually hate 2/3rds of a team more than I hate regimola. Quaggy is finding itself in a pretty solid set up where every mon is pulling their weight against threats against them, and Quag isn't so passive or just restricted to being reserved for set up sweepers as with Scald/EQ and spreading Toxic it does a phenomenal job of being annoying. Whomever came up with that core I just wish to let you know that I utterly despise you, hate is a strong word, but my despise for Quagsire might be at an all time high.

Machamp from UR to B: This was a long time coming with Heracross getting banned that Machamp now fills the role of supreme Guts FO user. I think the competition with other fighting types due the others having multiple solid options in set diversity and a secondary typing that usually is more helpful than a hindrance. It does an extremely solid job, but kind of needs the Guts boost to be effective right off, and unlike Heracross it isn't forcing as many switches, which is why I think B is more fitting than as high as B+.

Comfey from A- to B+ and Florges from A- to B: With the new drops, both mons were going to face overwhelming pressure from basically every drop. Personally felt Comfey had a lot more viability in general than Florges for a while now, and that it should be a rank above Florges due to how the Taunt/CM set was more against the meta and such a larger threat than what Florges usually could do. I think Comfey will be forced to run a more offensive set to stay relevant as the meta changes as we get some of these more offensive based Pokemon rather than passive Pokemon that it can take advantage of with Taunt. So basically agreeing with avocado just with my thoughts on them personally.

To add one further point to the discussion thoughts about:

Virizion from B+ to B/B-: With Z-moves Virizion got a breath of fresh air in that after a SD it could unleash a very powerful one time attack that could give it the momentum to get a neat kill that LO might not have been able to grab, or just to get a super dent off it's somewhat pitiful base 90 attack stat. While Viri's base speed is still great to change momentum against offensive Pokemon, it can struggle against a variety of bulky Pokemon that are common due to how weak it is, and that just having an option of a z-move isn't gonna magically help it break through teams. Doublade is really common, Dragalge waiting to tank any hits barring Zen Headbutt, it is outclassed in pretty much every way by all of our other Fighting types in terms of power and useful coverage, and it doesn't necessarily have the easiest set up opportunities to get a SD up anymore, I think it's time for our musketeer to drop a bit to reflect difficulties it faces at least in my experience.

Froslass from B- to C+/C: I know spookysocialist wanted to make this a big nom drop, and I'm in agreement. HO Spikes stacking Froslass is pretty hard to pull off as it can easily be killed off and hazards removed later by what we have in the metagame, along with the Destiny Bond nerf so you can't consecutively use that making solid predictions and uses of Taunt and Destiny Bond while trying to supplement Spikes difficult. I'd say at best a good job might be trying to cripple opponents for a team with Thunder Wave while trying to pass off Spikes to support a team, but otherwise there has been nomerit to running froslass, neat Pokemon just not favorable to run, and unless it being able to set up A-Veil makes a difference which I guess someone should test out, it should probably drop and this is coming from a guy who tried a variety of teams to see if I could justify keeping her in at like a B rank, she finds herself more detrimental than supportive to most teams honestly.
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#88
Been picking up RU again ever since the drops and wanted to give some opinions for the VR:

-> B+
Aurora Veil HO has skyrocketed in terms of popularity and viability after the seeming rise of threatening setup sweepers such as Pangoro, Espeon, and Linoone. With Cryogonal's dual screen support, the aforementioned sweepers become practically impossible to properly revenge kill and can each terrorize a specific archetype in their own right once they have gained enough stat boosts (think stall, balance, and offense respectively). Veil just facilitates sweeps so easily right now and the customization of these teams with other distinct sweepers like Feraligatr, Bibaracle, Salazzle and even seen some teams use the new threat in Zygarde-10% to great success. Aurorus and Cryo also provide there own specific support as well apart from just setting up hail + veil where the former can setuop entry hazard and threaten out nearly every single remover in the metagame, while the ladder can also act as a great wallbreaker with Blizzard, or just be a nuisance with Knock Off as it lures in stuff like Doublade and Registeel. I really feel the ranking should reflect Veil's recent surge of dominance as of late.

-> A-
Gigalith faces a lot of competition as a rocker with the introduction of Nidoqueen into the metagame once more as our new best Stealth Rock user. Although it possesses great bulk when factoring in the sandstorm boost, it still struggles against many other entry hazard removers / setters such as Gligar (unless it runs Toxic), Taunt Chestnaught, Registeel, and ofc Nidoqueen. It also is not favored in a metagame where threats like Sharpedo, Flygon, and Pangoro run rampant. More Salazzle's are running HP Grass now as well which also prevents Gigalith in consistently checking it without avoiding the 2HKO after entry hazard damage unless it is at near full health. Swellow is also a threat that has started to decline in usage, further diminishing its usefulness as a check to it. While Gigalith is still a phenomenal pick, I believe it has lust some of its luster as a rocker on a majority of teams thanks to Queen's ability to outshine it oncemore.

-> A
One of the best wallbreakers right now since Blizzard + Grass STAB + Earthquake being so hard to switch into for many pokes if your not using Bronzong. Ice types in general are really threatening right now and its ability to even keep certain offensive threats in check with Ice Shard is also greatly appreciates on a majority of teams. It does not appreciate a weakness to Stealth Rock alongside weaknesses to commmon offensive types in Fire, Rock, and Fighting alongside a pretty poor speed tier, however Mega Abomasnow's ability force switchins alone is a testament to how threatening it is, and this isn't even taking into account sets like Swords Dance. Really versatile threat like it was in ORAS before its ban. Maybe a rise in A+ in the future can be deserved as well.

Also yeh Queen is S easy (Taunt sets are especially heat), agree with Chestnaught to A+, and a drop in the Fairies can also be given too right now given all the Poison types running around rn.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#89

I'd like to make a case for Froslass staying in it's current rank of B-. While HO isn't necessarily the most amazing playstyle right now, I don't think Froslass's Spikes are as easy to remove as people think they are. First of all, Lass heavily threatens all of the relevant Defoggers in the tier with its Ice STAB (if you don't run Ice Beam on this I feel bad for you), and even though it is usually used as a suicide lead, the other teammates on the HO teams Lass is found on can at least try to keep up the pressure enough so Gligar/Tsareena/whatever the fuck you run for hazard removal can't safely remove the hazards without taking a ton of damage. The drop of Nidoqueen especially helps Lass, giving it a good teammate to stack hazards with and also threaten Gligar a bunch. Another thing Froslass has going for it is it's role on Aurora Veil teams, which have seen a spike of usage for obvious reasons. While Froslass can't use Triple Screens like Cryogonal and isn't as fast as Alolan Sandslash, it holds a niche of it's own on these types of teams in Spikes, which lets it stack hazards to support the sweepers it's paired with, as well as being as being an effective user of Aurora Veil with it's high Speed stat. An AVeil team with Froslass created by Molk has been going around lately, and it's definitely not a bad user of the move on these types of teams as evidenced by that team. Overall, I believe Lass is being underrated right now because it has more variety in teammates now with mons like Queen dropping, and being seen on more types of teams as seen by it's usage on Veil teams, and for those reasons Froslass should stay in B-.
 
#90
Froslass from B- to C+/C: I know spookysocialist wanted to make this a big nom drop, and I'm in agreement. HO Spikes stacking Froslass is pretty hard to pull off as it can easily be killed off and hazards removed later by what we have in the metagame, along with the Destiny Bond nerf so you can't consecutively use that making solid predictions and uses of Taunt and Destiny Bond while trying to supplement Spikes difficult. I'd say at best a good job might be trying to cripple opponents for a team with Thunder Wave while trying to pass off Spikes to support a team, but otherwise there has been nomerit to running froslass, neat Pokemon just not favorable to run, and unless it being able to set up A-Veil makes a difference which I guess someone should test out, it should probably drop and this is coming from a guy who tried a variety of teams to see if I could justify keeping her in at like a B rank, she finds herself more detrimental than supportive to most teams honestly.
Hi um yeah, Froslass should at least stay where it is now if not go back to where it was before LOL. This meta is sooooo good for lass, we have nidoqueen as a great rocker for HO, the best hazard remover in the tier left, and HO got some great new toys with zydoge and mega abomasnow.

PS send comfey to the depths of c rank where it has always belonged mkay
 
#91
Alright, in with the new mons:
Abomasnow-Mega to A+ - This thing is monstrous! It demolishes stall almost single-handedly with its incredibly strong Blizzard and Giga Drain making it difficult to wear down. SD is also super potent, with Ice Shard being helpful vs offense and Wood Hammer just being crazy powerful. Ice Shard in particular is incredible in this current meta (although priority being resisted by sharpedo isn't nice).
Decidueye to A- - This is a nice balance breaker and is great as a set-up sweeper, as Quagsire can't wall it. Decidium-Z doesn't have very many resists, with Umbreon being the only good one (which can't switch in on a +2 Leaf Blade). It's pretty weak vs offense and being a stall breaker that can't break umbreon can suck at times but other than that it's ideal vs defensive teams.
Nidoqueen to S - I don't need to go into much detail here, everyone else already did that for me :P.

I'm also gonna back the nom of Chesnaught to A+. Spikes is extraordinarily prominent in this meta, and Chesnaught is the best setter. It has a good defensive typing and can use Taunt very effectively, proving helpful vs both offense and stall alike. Also gonna back Quagsire to A-, Machamp to B+, and Comfey down - imo to B, B+ is fine too. Checking Sharpedo in this meta is super good but it just falls rather flat vs defensive teams. Registeel is just super terrifying for it to face, and it's on tons of balance and stall teams right now. There are tons of other poisons and steels rn, and like Florges and Gardevoir, Comfey isn't exactly great offensively or defensively rn, with its mediocre bulk and lacking power hurting it quite a bit. It's still a decent pick in this meta but certainly not A- material.
 

MrAldo

Bird Enthusiast
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#92
Just gonna tune in that Froslass should definitely not drop, in fact it should rise.

Froslass gets better the more offensive the metagame becomes, thats certainly the case with the recent drops, and with Mantine leaving the tier and recovering the best stealth rocker you could alongside it on Nidoqueen, it just becomes so good all of a sudden.

Should just rise to B honestly.
 

phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Co-Leader
#93
Ranking updates

Rises:
Chesnaught --> up to A+
Porygon2 --> up to A
Meloetta --> up to A-
Froslass --> up to B+
Ninetales --> up to B+
Cryogonal --> up to B-
Drops:
Swellow --> down to B+
Goodra --> down to B
Comfey --> down to B-
Florges --> down to B-
Diancie --> down to B-
Slowbro --> down to B-
Additions:
Nidoqueen --> Added to S
Abomasnow-Mega --> Added to A+
Zygarde-10% --> Added to A
Decidueye --> Added to A-
Machamp --> Added to B+
Banette-Mega --> Added to C+
Camerupt-Mega --> Added to C+
Tsareena --> Added to C
Removals:
Necrozma --> Unranked

Reasoning:

New additions:

Nidoqueen is the single best offensive Stealth Rock user and an incredible wallbreaker. It has an expansive movepool that allows it to circumvent every check and it can even take on other roles by supporting its team with Toxic Spikes. Not much to say. Everyone knows what Nidoqueen does and the tier hasn't worked too much against it to keep it from going back to S.

Mega Abomasnow is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier and can serve as a check to a lot of threatening offensive Pokemon like Sharpedo, Feraligatr, Flygon and Zygarde. Its ability to use either SD or Mixed sets makes it rather difficult to counter, and priority Ice Shard backed by Swords Dance allows it to work around its low Speed stat. With plenty of common offensive threats susceptible to its priority, Mega Abomasnow has quite a lot going for it in this meta.

Zygarde was added to A rank because it's the second best cleaner in the tier. Zygarde however has plenty of common counters and even offensive checks. Its propensity to lose a lot of one-on-one matchups also holds it back and prevents it from being added to a higher rank. Decidueye was added to A- due to its Swords Dance set, ability to set up on common defensive staples, and combination of viable variations of its SD set limiting the number of counters; however, it's a bit difficult to fit onto teams despite its great potential as a breaker and its inconsistency vs offense is also quite bothersome.

Mega Banette and Mega Camerupt are both decent, yet niche Pokemon. Mega Camerupt has few counters and is capable of checking several offensive threats such as Salazzle and Doublade; however, Mega Camerupt's mediocre bulk and low Speed prevent it from being a more common pick and also makes its job as a wallbreaker that much harder. Having priority Destiny Bond turn 1 allows Banette to trade one-for-ones against nearly all offensive teams and makes it a great emergency stop to various sweepers like Linoone and Venusaur, but it tends to give a lot of free turns to defensive teams and despite its high attack stat, its mediocre STABs really limit its damage output.

Tsareena struggles a lot in this meta. With Doublade and other Ghost-types being rather common and Pursuit users not being very good, Tsareena has quite a bit of difficulty getting off a Rapid Spin. It's also limited in movepool options because it requires High Jump Kick to beat Registeel. However, Tsareena can serve as an offensive check to several Pokemon like Linoone and SD Abomasnow because of its ability, in addition to Zygarde, so if provided with the right support, it can work, albeit its rather niche as its ranking of C reflects.

Rises/Drops:
Chesnaught has become extremely dominant in this meta. Its ability to set Spikes consistently, prevent the removal of Spikes, and still function as a great physical wall makes it one of the best support and defensive Pokemon in the tier. Its Taunt set in particular makes it effective against both offensive and defensive teams alike.

Porygon2 rose because it's one of the most anti-meta picks right now. Its defensive set with Foul Play allows it to check/counter an extraordinary amount of offensive threats, such as Sharpedo, Nidoqueen, Abomasnow, and Zygarde. Its good coverage options also prevent it from being used as set up bait. This also segues into why Swellow moved down because its counters have become extremely common, while Zygarde and Sharpedo are far more consistent as cleaners.

Ninetales has moved up because its an excellent check to common Aurora Veil teams, while being a phenomenal wallbreaker with a great Speed stat. Cryogonal has also improved in this metagame with the addition of Nidoqueen and the rise of Aurora Veil teams.

Slowbro has moved down because it loses to nearly every relevant physical attacker. It does not check very many Pokemon and its CM set, while decent, needs a lot of support to function. Goodra moved down because it's not quite at the level of other B+ Pokemon. While good, Dragalge is generally a more favorable bulky Dragon-type and Kommo-o is usually a more consistent pick offensively.

Froslass moved up due to the lack of Mantine and the viability of Spike-stacking offensive teams with Nidoqueen and Sharpedo. These teams have become increasingly powerful with the limited number of hazard removal options and the addition of Nidoqueen as a consistent offensive Stealth Rock user that keep hazards on the field.

Quagsire isn't moving up because it's restricted to a single archetype. While Quagsire is always seen on stall, the same can be said for other Pokemon like Registeel and Gligar that have far more use outside of full stall teams. Registeel isn't moving up due to the presence of Nidoqueen and various metagame trends that work heavily against it, such as Taunt Gligar and Taunt Chesnaught. Mismagius also isn't moving up because it has difficulty breaking through common defensive threats such as Umbreon and Porygon2, while the faster paced offensive meta makes it rather difficult for it to set up.

Machamp was added to B+ because it's an incredible wallbreaker. It's the hardest Fighting-type for defensive teams to counter given the great coverage and power the standard Flame Orb set has, allowing it to net 2-3 kills when played properly. It's not quite at the level of Pangoro/Bewear though because it's exceedingly vulnerable to residual damage, while also being the slowest of the three, which is relevant given how plenty of walls go the extra mile to outspeed Pangoro/Bewear, which conveniently allows them to outspeed Machamp also.

Florges, Diancie, and Comfey have moved down because the metagame has become hostile to defensive Fairys. The presence of Nidoqueen and Abomasnow makes it difficult for Comfey and Florges to pull off their CM sets, in addition to the old threats that are just as common as ever that still hold them down. Diancie is exceedingly mediocre because its Stealth Rock set is capable of losing to the main Defog user, and a defensive Pokemon that invites Nidoqueen in for free is almost never good. Lastly, Necrozma was unranked because it just doesn't do anything. It's a mediocre Stealth Rock user and its Calm Mind set will not sweep any kind of team.

Discussion Points:

Zoroark down to A+
Snorlax down to A
Xatu up to C+
Sigilyph up to B-
Bronzong up to B+
 
#94
Yaysies an update! Anyways, here are some noms looking at the meta rn:
Zoroark down to A+ - Agree. This isn't on the level of Queen, Shark and Salazzle rn. Chesnaught rising is bad news for the specs set unless it runs Flamethrower (bad vs umbreon). Zygarde is a new mon that can outspeed and KO easily, as Zoroark's speed tier isn't what it used to be. Some things are going in its favor (fairies falling off, swallow too) but it doesn't have the influence on the tier that Queen, Shark and Salazzle do.
Bronzong up to B+ - On the fence. It does have a strong time vs Queen, yes, but it's just not that great otherwise. Shark rising is bad, Salazzle is also super good rn, and Zygarde-10's addition hurts its niche.
Heliolisk to D - This is already super niche, and it's been getting even worse. It can't break through bulky teams at all with Regi being omnipresent, all the new drops are just pretty bad for it, especially Queen and Zygarde. Definitely not worth using in any case rn over the other electrics, which aren't great in this meta to begin with.
 
#95
Can we have a rank for Ditto please? Despite being the most one-dimensional, gimmicky thing ever, it's actually a pretty solid mon in this meta. With there being so many really threatening fast frail boosting sweepers around - Zygarde-10%, Sharpedo, Cloyster, Linoone, Feraligatr, Tyrantrum - I've found it actually does very well as a catch-all revenge-killer for balanced teams, fulfilling a similar anti-setup niche that Quagsire does on stall. In fact, it turns many of these Pokemon into liabilities, as if they do find time to set up they're likely to get counterswept in the late game by Ditto. It also negates much of the threat that weather teams - particularly sun - can pose, almost allowing you to win at team preview sometimes. It is generally dead weight against stall, but the teams that Ditto finds a home on are typically well-equipped to handle stall anyway, often packing a wallbreaker and a bulky set-up sweeper.

I'd put it in C+ or maybe B- from the experiences I've had with it, but if anyone has used it away from the ladder in a more serious context I'd obviously defer to that judgement.
 
#96
i would argue that registeel drops from A to A-/upper b+. The reason why i say this is because the introduction nidoqueen hurts it more than helps. nidoqueen while it doesnt have the steel typing and walling capabilities of registeel is arguably the best rocker in the tier because of its good offensive and defensive presence. another reason would be that most of the viable pokemon in tier can beat it or at least wear it down. These include flygon ,chesnaught, nidoqueen , salazzle, fire punch snorlax, etc. most of those mentioned either fear status from registeel or use it as setup fodder. now lets not underestimate registeel's usefulness. It checks many pokemon including swellow, special zoroark, special sharpedo, dragalge, cress, etc.
even after the positives the recent unbanning of zygarde and rise of bewear and pangoro as metagame threats don't favor it either so it should be either A- or B+ on the rankings. This concludes my argument hope you have a great day.
 
#97
i would argue that registeel drops from A to A-/upper b+. The reason why i say this is because the introduction nidoqueen hurts it more than helps. nidoqueen while it doesnt have the steel typing and walling capabilities of registeel is arguably the best rocker in the tier because of its good offensive and defensive presence. another reason would be that most of the viable pokemon in tier can beat it or at least wear it down. These include flygon ,chesnaught, nidoqueen , salazzle, fire punch snorlax, etc. most of those mentioned either fear status from registeel or use it as setup fodder. now lets not underestimate registeel's usefulness. It checks many pokemon including swellow, special zoroark, special sharpedo, dragalge, cress, etc.
even after the positives the recent unbanning of zygarde and rise of bewear and pangoro as metagame threats don't favor it either so it should be either A- or B+ on the rankings. This concludes my argument hope you have a great day.
I have a disagreement with this nom as a whole and argument. Your argument pretty much says that Nidoqueen's in the tier, and then proceeds to list a ton of stuff that was already in the tier and didn't stop Registeel from being A+ as being reasons for Registeel to drop. While it's true that Nidoqueen isn't helpful for it, that's the only part of your argument that actually has some ground, and one mon alone isn't enough to make it drop an entire rank. Bewear and Pangoro have also always been around and Regi's been fine, and if Regi can live through Flygon it can live through Zygarde.

I'm also going to nom Mega Glalie to A-. Ice STAB is very good in this meta, having few viable resists, and Mega Glalie's access to earthquake makes Registeel, Doublade, and Gigalith wary of switching in, since they all get 2HKOed by it after Return/Frustration damage. Frustration/Earthquake/Ice Shard/Spikes is probably its best set, combining the role of offensive wallbreaker with offensive spiker. Ice/Ground is pretty amazing coverage right now, and Base 100 isn't a bad speed tier, especially since Glalie hits pretty hard. I think it's definitely an A- or higher mon.

Also unrank Aurorus and A-Sandslash
 
#98
I feel Tyrantrum should drop to B or B- rank because of the introduction of Zygarde-10%. It is much faster and has reliable ground STAB and poses a lot of competition to tyrantrum as a Dragon type choice band user. It also can KO tyrantrum pretty easily with it's two stabs. Tyrantrum does have the niche of no recoil Head smash though, so it still has some justification to be used.
Another nomination I would like to make is Machamp to A-. I have been using machamp lately and I am quite impressed. It has excellent coverage in Facade and Knock off, allowing it to hit psychic types for SE damage and hit anything except rock and steel for strong neutral damage. It can still destroy Steel and rock types too with its STAB close combat. Great check to many Pokemon like Registeel, Pangoro, Doublade, Snorlax, Linoone, Mega Glalie, Cloyster, and Bewear to an extent. It even has Steel type priority in bullet punch to KO weakened Pokemon. A really good Pokemon right now and I feel it is better than B+.
One more nomination o would like to make is Kommo-o to A rank. Since Nidoqueen has been reintroduced to RU, defensive Fairy types have seen a massive decline, mainly Florges and Comfey. This is great news for Kommo-o because it's 4X weakness is much harder to exploit now with nidoqueen running around. It has pretty solid matchups against some of the new drops too, it can easily rank an ice shard from Mega aboma and destroy it with focus blast, and it can use a +1 Flamethrower on Decidueye and the occasional Tsareena. It's competition in Goodra as best special attacking dragon is fading as Goodra becomes more irrelevant as seen by it dropping to B rank.
 
#99
Tyrantrum's Choice Band set may face more competition from Zygarde (though it still pulls off feats like 2HKOing Cresselia which Zygarde can't), but its Choice Scarf set is as strong as ever and it is more than capable of holding its own.

Think you may be overselling Machamp a bit. It can't even check some of the Pokemon you list. It's not a great answer for Doublade, is shaky against Mega-Glalie
(you need Stealth Rock damage + a reasonable amount of Double Edge recoil + Flame Orb to be already activated to KO with Bullet Punch), and how on earth is it stopping a Linoone sweep? But the main problem with Machamp is that it gets forced out pretty easily and burn damage racks up surprisingly quickly. It's very rare for it to get more than one kill, I find.

Agreed that Kommo-o is pretty good right now, though.
 
Dropping in to give this thread my 2 cents on a few mons.

Zoroark:

This is an intersting mon. Everyone knows what it does. Trying to disguise himself as one of its teammates to lure in certain mons in order to facilitate a sweep of its own or for one of its teammates. I think Zoroark would find the current meta trend, spikes being practically part of the floor, a double-edged sword. At one hand Zoroark would find it harder to keep up a credible disguise, but on the other hand all the chip damage the opponent racks up only helps Zoroark's cause more. Since it will either have an easier time getting past certain FAT mons as a wallbreaker with the specs set or sweep its way to a victory with the SD set.
Yes Zoroark may not seem to have that X-factor of "oh I actually lose to this mon straight up" but it has the potential to actuall fuck you up badly when you make 1 wrong assumption. The fact that you dont know either which of its multiple sets its running makes it even harder to keep Zoroark in check. In essence Zoroark has the unique ability to have a big impact on a game without even seeing the field once. Therefore I dont think it should drop but actually stay S rank

Xatu:

With Registeel still being a great rocker and Spikes being everywhere with Chesnaught being the premier spiker on most teams one could justify a rise to C+. Aside from bouncing of spikes Xatu can also pressure some prominent mons aswell depending on the coverage moves it wants to run aswell as gain momentum with a (slow) uturn. The bad thing is that it cant prevent Galvantula from putting up webs and Nidoqueen and Rhyperior from rocking without risking its own life. It's also not a great Fighting check because either the Fighting type has a s/e STAB or it can just break through Xatu with raw power (except sd bewear due to speed issues).

Machamp:

I dont see a reason for Machamp to rise since it was ranked at B+ very recent and nothing really has changed in the meta the past 7 days to justify a rise to an A- Rank. So this mon should stay where its at. B+ is more than fine for it

Registeel:

I disagree with a drop for this mon. Yes Zydog and Nidoqueen joined its tier, but I still feel like Registeel has a lot to offer that would defend its A+ rank. Its close behind Nidoqueen as the second best rocker in the tier and functions as a blanket check to so much special attackers in this tier. Yes it may seem like set up fodder for some mons but 1 toxic+toss+tect and smart switching puts the mon that set up almost down and out.

Tyrantrum:

If there is one BL3 mon that deserves to reach ru by usage its Tyrantrum. I've been using this mon for the past month, even in the most recent meta, and I feel like this mon doesnt deserve to drop at all. Banded Zydog is probably more easy to use but banded tyrantrum also has a very spammable stab "nuke" in head smash. imo banded Tyrantrum is a better wallbreaker than Zydog. Yes its slower but its fast enough for the walls it wants to break which is essentially what its supposed to do. Besides the banded set Tyrantrum can also run a Rock Polish and Scarf set. The latter being the best atm since its an excellent revengekiller against anything that isnt scarfed aswell, while still being a good offensive check to Salazzle. Rock polish is a set that threatens offense alot since at +2 it outspeeds even a scarf Durant. The RP set will only get even better when Sharpedo gets banned. All in all I think Tyrantrum is a solid B+ pokemon and should stay where its at

Havent had too much experience with the other discussion mons in the current meta, but I feel like Snorlax could drop 1 sub rank.
 
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