RU Viability Rankings

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Durant A- to A: Agree

I feel like Durant didn't get too much attention this generation so far, being overshadowed by the UU mons dropping from Oras. Taking a look at the pokemon in the S to A ranks in the ranking, Durant beats the majority off them with it's stabs, Superpower and Crunch. While Durant has a good portion of counterplay in this meta, actually most of it's checks can be defeated with the right coverage moves and I think the metagame shifted in Durants favor lately. Let's take a look at Durants most common counters:

Fire Types: aren't as common or versatile like they've been in earlier stages of the metagame, Camerupt-M and Emboar dropped down in viability. The only Fire Types in S to A- rank are Moltres and Salazzle, and Moltres gets killed by a Rock Slide while Salazzle beats Durant for sure.

Doublade: Basically beats every Durant variant without Crunch, namely the Choice Scarf set. Life Orb Durant has a good chance to 2HKO Doublade, and Hone Claws Darkinium Z Durant beats Doublade anyways. While being forced to run Crunch isn't a great thing, losing at least one of X-Scissor, Rock Slide and Hone Claws depending on the set. But 2 of 3 common Durant sets can beat Doublade.
Bulky Water Types: Aren't as common anymore with Mantine leaving the tier a time ago. While Milotic can be beaten by using the uncommon Z-Thunder Fang Set or , Quagsire beats Durant all the time.

252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Milotic: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gligar I feel is more problematic for Durant than Doublade, because none of it's common sets can beat Gligar, allowing it to setup Rocks or Defog, there's still an option to beat Gligar with Durant by using the Hone Claws Set with a Steelium Z or by going for the Darkinium Z Hone Claws and just using Iron Head. This might be a little over the top in a VR post, but assuming you go for Hone Claws while Gligar switches in or uses one of it's utility moves:

Darkinium: +2 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 160-190 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO

Steelium: +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 241-285 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 121-144 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Durant beats a lot of the bulky/defensive pokemon in the tier, Registeel, Snorlax, Doublade if running Life Orb or Z-Crystal with Crunch, Cresselia, Umbreon, Gigalith and Milotic if running Z-Thunder Fang.
As a note I'd just like to say how Durant can beat Quagsire with Band set, see:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 208-245 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fightinium Z also has a shot after some damage (as well as Darkinium after more damage)
252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 139-164 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 81.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unaware ignoring Attack debuff is annoying, Gligar is also very shaky cuz its not going enough damage to beat Hone Claws sets and Fightinium Z also KOes Milotic after Rocks (~94%), defensive counterplay to Durant is barely a thing, with Spikes Quag might just lose, Ampharos-M dies to +1 Dark/Fight Z, a healthy Durant can setup once or twice on Gligar cuz with luck the bat is only 3HKOing, revenge kill Durant is the way to go, for teams without Salazzle your options are Scarf Moltres, Specs/HP Fire Espeon (Specs needs Rocks to KO 100% of the time), Swellow, Scarf Moltres, Shay and some other Scarfers, I wouldn't even disagree with Durant to A+, tihs thing has very limited counterplay and can usually bypass even its best checks (see Quag) after some prior damage, and btw with right prediction Band 2HKOes everything in the meta which is why I agree with it rising.

Now about Tsareena, I tried to find a niche for it, it fails to beat Feraligatr, Bruxish, and any Offensive Water-type, Defensive sets loses hard to Regi, Zong and Queen while Offensive ones must HJK Regi in the right turn and are still beaten by Zong and Queen. Its weak and can't beat Doublade or Decidueye, they can not only spinblock on it but use it as a fodder, even without Ghosts on the field its not a good mon to Spin, the only decent niche I ever found is that Tsareena can counter SD Aboma and I don't see how this is enough to keep it ranked, agree with it unranked.

And I'll just give my opinion in some noms:
Feraligatr to S overrates the aligator, its a great mon but it will have a hard time breaking Milotic and Chesnaught, most Scarfers can beat it, should keep A+ because its really good but not meta defining imo.
Also imo its funny try to put a mon into S and its best answer into A-, well...Milotic will struggle with Grass-types which is annoying but its still very bulky, a great Gatr and Doublade check, can beat a Flygon that already spent its Z, can prevent Lax from sweeping with Curse, taking Toxic is annoying but it will also boost Milotic's already nice Defense. The point that it struggles against some threats is like Regi struggling with Salazzle, Queen, losing to SD Zoroark, never touching Doublade at all (all A+/S mons) and its still A+, imo keep Milotic where it's at rn cuz I've been using it so much lately and its still working very well.
Oh and btw I agree with Roserade to A+, this mon is so nice and annoying to play against rn, Spikes are broken its STABs are very powerful and Technician HP is so great giving you a "Flamethrower" or an "Ice Beam", Scarf sets are also very nice since its really strong and can revenge kill threats such as Salazzle and Swellow.
 

Jord-e

formerly ThiccTornadus
As a note I'd just like to say how Durant can beat Quagsire with Band set, see:
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 208-245 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fightinium Z also has a shot after some damage (as well as Darkinium after more damage)
252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 139-164 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 81.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unaware ignoring Attack debuff is annoying, Gligar is also very shaky cuz its not going enough damage to beat Hone Claws sets and Fightinium Z also KOes Milotic after Rocks (~94%), defensive counterplay to Durant is barely a thing, with Spikes Quag might just lose, Ampharos-M dies to +1 Dark/Fight Z, a healthy Durant can setup once or twice on Gligar cuz with luck the bat is only 3HKOing, revenge kill Durant is the way to go, for teams without Salazzle your options are Scarf Moltres, Specs/HP Fire Espeon (Specs needs Rocks to KO 100% of the time), Swellow, Scarf Moltres, Shay and some other Scarfers, I wouldn't even disagree with Durant to A+, tihs thing has very limited counterplay and can usually bypass even its best checks (see Quag) after some prior damage, and btw with right prediction Band 2HKOes everything in the meta which is why I agree with it rising.

Now about Tsareena, I tried to find a niche for it, it fails to beat Feraligatr, Bruxish, and any Offensive Water-type, Defensive sets loses hard to Regi, Zong and Queen while Offensive ones must HJK Regi in the right turn and are still beaten by Zong and Queen. Its weak and can't beat Doublade or Decidueye, they can not only spinblock on it but use it as a fodder, even without Ghosts on the field its not a good mon to Spin, the only decent niche I ever found is that Tsareena can counter SD Aboma and I don't see how this is enough to keep it ranked, agree with it unranked.

And I'll just give my opinion in some noms:
Feraligatr to S overrates the aligator, its a great mon but it will have a hard time breaking Milotic and Chesnaught, most Scarfers can beat it, should keep A+ because its really good but not meta defining imo.
Also imo its funny try to put a mon into S and its best answer into A-, well...Milotic will struggle with Grass-types which is annoying but its still very bulky, a great Gatr and Doublade check, can beat a Flygon that already spent its Z, can prevent Lax from sweeping with Curse, taking Toxic is annoying but it will also boost Milotic's already nice Defense. The point that it struggles against some threats is like Regi struggling with Salazzle, Queen, losing to SD Zoroark, never touching Doublade at all (all A+/S mons) and its still A+, imo keep Milotic where it's at rn cuz I've been using it so much lately and its still working very well.
Oh and btw I agree with Roserade to A+, this mon is so nice and annoying to play against rn, Spikes are broken its STABs are very powerful and Technician HP is so great giving you a "Flamethrower" or an "Ice Beam", Scarf sets are also very nice since its really strong and can revenge kill threats such as Salazzle and Swellow.
Band doesnt 2hko bc u lower ur atk stat after using it once so this is innacurate.
 
Durant - Honestly I would like to make the case for Durant to rise to A+ due to the amount of pressure Durant exerts in battle. With a solid core of coverage moves and more than potent offenses and a serviceable defensive typing it is a monster. Fightinium / Darkium Z allows for it to beat a variety of checks after SR or at least a set of Spikes being up after Hone Claws. Due to the difficulty of switching into Durant LO and Band are still extremely potent, while Scarf is an annoying thing for Offensive teams to deal with. While I will relent that it's not hard to have a possible answer to Durant on most teams as Durant really needs the HC boost or that locking into a move can give way to all kinds of opposing set up after a kill, players can't give Durant any kind of free reign to set up or there are risks to being swept without a very good scarfer in reserve or running Swellow / Salazzle or something fast along those lines. Otherwise most people's reaction to fighting it would be to have a team of Pokemon that don't let it set up and would force it to attack or die which isn't something I see a lot of because there's usually at least one or two Pokes on a team that can give Durant the set up needed.

Cresselia - I honestly hate space duck and think it is too fat and good at its passive roles ban it pls and agree with Natural Talents about a rise. I don't know about S ranking it, but I do think that A+ is at least a justified rise. Being able to stall out a general amount of Pokemon with Toxic and Moonlight recovery, hitting Dark types with a Moonblast that even unboosted can damage most of them severely (unless you are named Umbreon), being able to support teams with Lunar Dance / Thunder Wave support Cresselia can do a lot of versatile role fulfillment. Not to mention that Calm Mind sets are really annoying to work around as HP Fire limits your ability to counter it with Escavalier and Doublade and check with Durant. A lot of people generally accept seeing Cress as some fat wall on a team that will just do passive things, but I think Cress is an underrated team Pokemon that can reek havoc because you can't just outright know what it is running and because she'll almost never be 2HKO'd without set up or choiced items, she is something teams have to watch for or fall into her pace.

Roserade - Agree with a rise to A+ and most things have been said on it. Great spiker with the ability to threaten a variety of Pokemon with STABs, optional Tech HP Fire / Ice or even Ground so you aren't entirely Salazzle weak. Scarf is a really interesting set that I've fought against and it can do a good job in the midgame. There are some hard answers to Rose, but being able to take advantage forcing switches to set up Spikes is a valuable asset in the current metagame.
 
Funny thing is, I was talking bout this before the VR update... Linoone C+ ---> B+



This is a huge jump, like trust me I know, but I was thinking about this when Linoone was B. Now we all know what this mon does, and it does it well. It is one of the most threatening set up sweepers in the tier hands down. At +6 few mons are able to take a hit, and most defensive Pokemon need few chip in ordered to be Ko'd. Since I wrote about Linoone previously, I don't feel the need to go on, but my post is here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ru-viability-rankings.3602279/page-3#post-7452163

I just want to argue about the reasons moved down. First, while Veil is gone, Linoone can still set up pretty easily (yes I use screens, but even without screens it can set up with ease, I will show replays below w/ and w/o them). All it has to do is live a hit, and since its invested in HP, it can do that. Second, while sharp is gone, and its priority may seem less helpful, its still a strong priority, stronger than Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack. It is definitely still helpful in a tier with great speed boosting/fast mons like Feraligatr, Flygon, Zoro, Salazzle, etc.

I know its a Linoone, but overall it is easily one of the best wincons in the tier, and can sweep through teams very easily the right set up opportunities (which every sweeper has, so its not a flaw) it will almost always be a win since E speed has +2 priority, and few things out prioritize that. Also like to add that Registeel usage had died down a lot, and that is one of the only mons that wasn't 2hko'd at +6

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-645973752 (Linoone swept through a defensive team after just a little chip on the mons that lived a hit)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-647268008 (How little chip it needs to sweep vs an offensive team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-648201704 (Even w/o Screens it can find ways to set up and sweep w/ ease)
 
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Durant up to A
I believe A is much too low. There's only two mons in the entire tier that check it somewhat consistently defensively: Bulky Fabio (aka the good set) and Quag. But even these two can be defeated with some chip from spikes for instance, as proven by the calcs RandomNick provided. Fabo can live a +1 AoP even after rocks, however, if spikes are also up, it dies.

+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos-Mega: 286-337 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Basically counterplay is restricted to revenge killing Durant with a scarfer or a faster mon. Durant itself could also be scarf, which means you'll have to scout for that early on. Having to worry about whether it's Fightinum, Darkinium, LO, Scarf or CB, when the former only has a couple of good answers to begin with... I don't think that's the trait of an A rank mon. Personally I'd like to see it in S, I'd even love for a suspect to be held, as I don't think this mon is balanced at all, keeping the aforementioned heavily restrcted counterplay in mind. In all honesty, I think it's hard to objectively make a case for it being any lower than A+.
Agree (Well, sorta at least)

Tsareena Unranked
It has no niche whatsoever, no reason to rank it.
Agree

Registeel down to A
Pause. Am I seeing this right, or did one of, if not the best defensive mon in the tier just get nommed for A? Are we really saying that Queen entering the tier made Regi go from S to A in viability? Sure, Xatu becoming common also hurt it a bit, given that it stops Regi dead in its tracks, but this is way too big of a hit. Stop this anti-Regi train, it's time to hop off. This mon is still fantastic defensively. The reason it rose to S in the first place, was because it was the best defensive steel in the tier by far, blanket checking almost half the tier, all by itself. This hasn't changed at all. Queen entering just means you have to fit a Queen check alongside it. And Cress just so happens to have fantastic synergy with it, the two of them checking almost the entire tier together, only being vulnerable to status and sub+boosting breakers. Regi may not be the best rocker anymore, but its defensive capabilities are just as strong as they were prior to Queen's second coming. Keep it in A+. Disagree

Jellicent up to B
Did i miss something? Any particular reason it's being discussed? Seems much worse than the current B ranks to me. I was pretty disappointed after using it. A taunt mon that can't keep Glig from foging, Cress from toxicing and Chester from setting spikes? Meh. And no, it does not break stall, it is but a mere annoyance. It's a great Lazzle check, spinblocker (if that's worth anything at all in this tier, given that the only slightly relevant spinner is Cryo), and Colbur Wisp is neat for mons such as Gatr, Physical Zoro and Durant, but i don't see what's new about this. In what way did it get any better than what it already was? Unless there's something I've forgotten, I don't see a reason to move it from its current rank. Disagree

Oh and i support a rise for Cress, but not quite to S. A+ would be more fitting imo.
 
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MrAldo

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The Durant CD have been overplayed and I definitely agree it should be A at least so lets just put in there.

Tsareena really has no niche sadly. Basically outdone on every department by other grass types except for being a mega abomasnow check of sorts thanks to Queenly Majesty, but that alone doesnt make it worth it. Worse Spinner than Cryo somehow, not fast enough for scarf to be useful and just stopped by too many things. Unrank it.

I agree with Registeel dropping. While it is still an excellent blanket check to a lot of things, many metagames trends are just stacked against it, that it makes you think twice about slapping it on a team unlike the past meta. Nidoqueen influence is obvious, and the incredibly rise of usage in Xatu is definitely a major factor, but when the stuff that you supposedly check can easily adapt to you (Shaymin having a really good Sub Seed set, Feraligatr running Superpower on swords dance for commonly, Decidueye, Machamp, CM Melo and Salazzle being really good and even some Espeon variants could potentially beat you) the drop is really deserved. Still an excellent choice for a steel type, but not the borderline S defensive behemoth it was past meta. Drop it to A.

Not too educated on Jellicent but while a durant hard check, guaranteed Snorlax stop, excellent Salazzle check and a good way of taking advantage of the so common Milotic builds is really dope (Slow Jellicent blows) there are still notable issues with it. Grass-types are really good right now, Nidoqueen runs Toxic most of the time now, the issue of Hex vs Scald is still present sometimes and the internal debate of wanting to run bulky vs fast being a real issue... doesnt look too favorable for it. Id be inclined to disagree but I wanna see a more educated opinion of a more avid Jellicent user.

Cresselia is A+ at best cause it is certainly a top support pokemon in the tier, her other options besides Lunar Dance and status moves are... awkward to pull off. It is like something else manages to pull off everything she can pull off on paper more effectively (Sub Calm Mind, screens, Calm mind whatever, you name it). The defensive excellence certainly guarantee her a rise to A+, but not to S in my eyes.

Also, Feraligatr isnt S, and for the love of God... Milotic dropping, are you kidding me?!

One nom of my own:

Qwilfish to C: This Pokemon is certainly 100% more useful than anything on C-, it even has some nice tournament success backing it up. Ajna and SilentVerse made good use of it in their Snake games. It allowed Ajna to run Mega Abomasnow alongside a Spikes Setter that could complement well with it. Funnily enough it is the only spiker atm that resists fire and Ice together (besides Omastar but Taunt is more appealing to stop passive counterplay) so thats definitely a niche on its own when Spikes are so good. Checking Durant is also nice (shame Z-Moves exist am I right) but it is a good punisher to other variants thanks to rocky helmet. While it has many shortcomings, it can be incredibly useful on select offensive builds virtue of its defensive value and utility so I believe it deserves to be C at least.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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C+ to B- / B

In a metagame where hazards are borderline overpowered due to our linear / lackluster hazard control, Mega Banette is finding itself in possibly the best position it could be in at the moment. Not only is it a spinblocker with access to Taunt, blocking both forms of hazard removal which really helps when punishing opponents switching from Destiny Bond, but it meshes extremely well in this more offensive meta as it can easily pressure more offensive builds by softchecking basically any faster offensive Pokemon (and Mega Banette can adjust its Speed to encompass more targets if need be) with its Prankster Destiny Bond while facing fat mons less often. Even on the subject of bulky Pokemon which can handle Mega Banette's attacks, I'm finding there's not actually much in the tier that can comfortably claim to do so; Mega Banette's attacks threaten to 3HKO things like Snorlax, Milotic, Porygon2 (more so with poison), and even its most prominent answer in Umbreon, and Taunt is able to trip up those that attempt to heal back up (though P2 threatens with Foul Play while Umbreon is flat out unaffected), with Taunt also rendering most Registeels a sitting duck. Mega Banette's Ghost and Poison coverage also invalidates other bulky Pokemon such as Chesnaught, Cresselia, Bronzong, and clerical Fairies as switch-ins. The only offensive Mega Banette switch-ins I've encountered are physically bulky tanks like Rhyperior, Escavalier, Donphan, and Gigalith, all of which have some overlapping responses and can be dealt by Chesnaught, which happens to be a Spiker. Compared to Mega Ampharos and Mega Camerupt, which play as corebreakers but can't fully break stall, Mega Banette can still offer mild corebreaking ability while also being a great anti-sweeper and anti-hazard-removal tool.
 
Quick nom:
Roserade: A > A+
How is this still in A? Roserade is pretty easily one of the best Pokémon in the tier right now in a number of roles. Roserade is one of the most versatile Pokémon in the tier, with a multitude of sets that all require you to prepare for. Between Scarf, either offensive spikes or Sleep Spikes, Sleep Powder + 3 attacks, and I've even seen Specs and Grassium-Z sets as well. It's very hard to tell which set is which at face value, and while they all have similar checks and counters, Rose isn't completely helpless since you still have to fear being put to sleep (unless it's Scarf). I think Sleep Spikes is probably the best Rose set right now, because Spikes are almost overpowered and Rose is the best offensive spiker, being able to lay spikes very consistently, sleep whatever comes in, and has enough power to make the bouncers think twice about switching into it. Scarf is also amazing, being fast enough to outspeed a lot of things after setup and take advantage of the switches it forces to even lay spikes, which is solid role compression. Rose always seems to do something in every match it's in, regardless of team comp, and is both consistent and versatile enough to be A+.
 
UR to S

Big poppa is back
M Lix sets rocks on every defoger avilable (bar the rare 2nd defoger Moltres), and absolutely annihilates Xatu with Heavy Slam. It has ridicolous bulk, a great defensive and offensive typing, and tons of offensive presence thanks to dual STAB EQ+Heavy Slam; the latter being 120 Power vs most of the tier. It's also just as splashable as ever, fitting on literally all playstyles but HO (and even Nascar Lix HO seems doable tbh). Pretty much everything that switches in on this gets fucked by Toxic, including Umby (Foul Play does 20 btw), Cress, Glig, Chester, Jelli, Seismi, Defensive Moltres, Milo, P2 and Vap, which will likely rise in popularity due to Lix's arrival (basically LixMola 2.0, but without broken ability). M Lix is back, and he's ready to rule the tier once again.
 

Nominating Milotic to A+
With most teams team opting to use some sort of Toxic mon as their Milotic check (I've seen Toxic Doublade the most, followed by Toxic Zygarde-10%, but there's also stuff like Toxic Nidoqueen), Milotic has all the more reason to run Refresh these days which has made me appreciate this mon a lot more. Full PhysDef Milotic with Refresh over Toxic lets Milotic check a good amount of the A+ tier (Flygon, Snorlax, Registeel, Feraligatr), a decent amount of the A tier (Bewear, Gligar, non-Tbolt Porygon, Zygarde-10%) and just overall be more resiliant and less easily overwhelmed versus what it checks solidly, while not trying to half ass check other stuff (Salazzle). It also blanket checks a LOT of Pokemon below it (Most physical attackers or any wall aiming to whittle it down via status), and honestly with how many Pokemon we have weak to Ice in this tier a resistance is a godsend on most teams. Also it pairs really nicely with Mega-Steelix which is goat.
 

Nominating Donphan from C- to C

While i do understand why this mon is bad defensively, i do not think it warrants be C- . This is due to the banded set. Choice Banded Donphan hits extremely hard on just about everything in the tier, besides Chesnaught, Gligar and Golisopod. With Max speed Adamant, you outspeed Non invested milotic by one point and hit it with seed bomb for 70% min on the standard set. This Set is actually a good way to surprise the standard stall team and hit everything on it really hard if you predict well. You also have different coverage moves you can use to benefit your team more, such as gunk shot, Play rough, Knock off, Head Smash, and ice Shard.

Here are some calcs to back this up.
Umbreon:
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 282-332 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chesnaught:
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 192-226 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 236-278 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Registeel:
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 356-422 (97.8 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Gligar:
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 77-91 (23 - 27.2%) -- 56.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 192-228 (57.4 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Quagsire:
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 436-516 (110.6 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Porygon2:
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 107-127 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Porygon2: 247-292 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are also other things it does such as tank +1 Durant's Iron head and Tank a hit from Banded Bewear. For these reasons i think donphan should rise to C Rank
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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I've said it before and I've said it again: outside of spinning Donphan half-asses everything one would want out of a Ground-type. Even with "surprise factor" on its side, Donphan still is a rather mediocre choice to have as a Ground-type attacker. You claim that 'Choice Band Donphan hits just about everything in the tier and even harass stall with good prediction', but Choice Band Rhyperior does so with even more power and requiring far less prediction, such as being able to 2HKO Porygon2 with Earthquake alone without any need for Knock Off. Unlike Donphan, Rhyperior has two 100 BP STABs for the opponent to worry about as either option is a powerful neutral option to throw out, greatly diminishing the number of safe switch-ins. Even though it cannot outspeed Milotic, CB Earthquake does like 74% minimum, and even has an existent chance to OHKO with just Stealth Rock as prior damage; this heavily pressures Milotic to Recover, and if it gets forced out right after, it still cannot comfortably switch back into Rhyperior again. Compare this against the hassle of say, Donphan's matchup against Gligar, where it has to first land the Knock Off on the Gligar switch-in, switch out, and try to nail the subsequent Gligar switch-ins with Ice Shard twice (Gligar would flee after taking the first Ice Shard, and if you don't hit the 3rd Gligar switch-in with another Ice Shard, you give it a chance to heal and you've lost all momentum).

You also keep talking about all these "customizable moves" that lets Donphan "widen its matchups" or "increase unpredictability", when really it's just choosing between certain matchups while worsening others, and even some of those moves are questionable; like why exactly do you need Seed Bomb for Quagsire and Play Rough for Umbreon when EQ already 2HKOes them (sure Seed Bomb can OHKO Quag, but the CB EQ should be enough of a crippling surprise if you can keep the offensive pressure up), plus the fact that you'd even consider Head Smash leads me to believe you haven't even considered Rhyperior as a substitute yet. Rhyperior covers everything it needs to with just 4 moveslots, thus maximizing its coverage and remaining threatening despite its simplicity; if anything this simplicity is far more effective than Donphan's "versatility" since it gets the job done with less hassle / prediction. Not to mention that more people would expect tank Rhyperior over its CB variant in the first place, so Rhyperior is still making use of your 'surprise factor' argument as well.

Even if I wanted some stallbreaking Ground-type with more favorable matchups against Milotic, Chesnaught, and Quagsire, Donphan would definitely not be my pick. I'd sooner consider something like Swords Dance + Synthesis Torterra with Lum Berry to stallbreak without needing any prediction. The fact that Rhyperior and Torterra, despite being more specialized than generalist Donphan here, provide better defensive utility in comparison is just saddening. The only defensive benefit Donphan offers in turn is Sturdy to possibly check a threat, but if you're resorting to this to serve as a one-time check to a threat (which it may not even manage to revenge kill) while needing to be at 100%, I'd just use Mega Banette which can check pretty much every offensive threat regardless of either's health. Shit, a healthy CB Rhyperior has better odds of beating Durant than Donphan does, since +1 Iron Head doesn't KO while Rhyperior's CB EQ has a 93% chance to OHKO, while Donphan's is pretty much a third of that (only 31%).

Tl;dr, even if Donphan manages to come up with an optimal Choice Band set (probably EQ / Knock / Gunk Shot / Ice Shard) as some sort of 'surprise stallbreaker', I still see very little reason to run this over other Ground-types like Rhyperior, Nidoqueen, or even a goddamn Torterra, all of which have dual STAB (lessening the need for coverage and prediction) and superior typing to better their overall matchups. Just stick to Spin man; it's the only thing Donphan has going for it.
 
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phantom

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RU Co-Leader
Final ranking updates for SM

Rises:

Durant A- --> A
Qwilfish C- --> C+
Steelix-Mega --> Added to A+

Drops:

Registeel A+ --> A

There hasn't been too much discussion since the last update, hence the minimal changes. As for the most popular change being proposed, Roserade is not A+. Roserade has a ton of issues between being frail and difficult to build a consistent team with. It's a Grass-type incapable of checking Feraligatr or Zygarde. While Scarf sets can revenge kill both, Scarf Roserade forfeits a lot of momentum against common threats when locked into its STABs, mainly Salazzle, Durant, and Chesnaught. Furthermore, offensive LO sets while good, are extremely easy to wear down and pressure and can still be checked by special walls such as Umbreon. Cresselia is also not A+ due to the fact that it forfeits a lot of free turns to common mons such as Steelix, Doublade, Durant, etc. Furthermore, Cresselia is nearly useless against any sort of defensive build, and sets that aren't dedicated to checking other Pokemon, such as Calm Mind, are seldom effective due to the sheer number of common checks, including Registeel and Haze Milotic.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to contribute to this thread. There will be a new, updated VR thread a few weeks into USM, so look forward to it then!
 
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