Lagging Tail forces the user to go last WITHIN ITS PRIORITY BRACKET. That means Trick will still go first thanks to its +1 priority, yet ANY priority attack will go first, regardless of speed (e.g. Conkeldurr is slower than Sableye, but Sableye with Lagging Tail will move last if Conkeldurr uses Mach Punch. If Conkeldurr uses any other attack, Sableye will go first, though)
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Sableye (analysis)
- Thread starter Scorpio
- Start date
Actually, Sableye doesn't get any moves by breeding from Lopunny, nor does Lopunny get any moves from Zoroark.
Dark Pulse is illegal with Prankster, so your strongest special Dark move is Hidden Power Dark.
I believe his standard DW set really, really deserves a mention or even to entirely fuse with the primary set. Especially the EVs.
Sableye @ Leftovers Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Confuse Ray (Basically a filler slot. Confuse Ray is #1 on the set, but it's preference based really.)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Past%20Stats/august-2011/DW%20OU/302.html (Notice how even the Sp.Defensive set (5th Ranked Set) even runs Defense EVs)
What most people don't realize about this set, if they haven't been playing Dream World OU at all, is the EVs. It looks very thrown together, but it actually allows it to take hits from both sides reasonably well and perfectly take specific hits from OU threats. For instance, Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch will do 57.6% - 68.1% to Sableye meaning that if Sableye burns it after it's first Bullet Punch, Sableye is never 2HKOd with Leftovers. The reason that is important is Scizor is one of the few Physical Attackers that can hit Sableye before Will-O-Wisp burns it. If it doesn't run enough Defense, it will be forced to switch-out and come back in with less than 30% of it's HP left regardless of if WoW hits or not. Same story goes for Choice Band & +1 Dragonite. Outrage can do over 80% to Sp.Defensive Sableye while Dragonite is burned. The 128 Defense EVs let it completely stall-out Outrage with Recover then use the confusion to heal-up & switch Pokemon. Same goes for Haxorus.
The 128 Sp. Defense EVs let Sableye stall-out Jellicent with Taunt WoW, who is really the only Special Attacker Sableye has any business switching into. Which is exactly what running 252 EVs in Sp. Defense is a complete waste. Sableye has absolutely NO business switching into Special Attackers and the Special Attackers is can switch into are handled with 128 EVs. Trick Room Reuniclus LO Shadow Ball is handled no better with 252 Sp.Def than with 128. Sableye is still 3HKO'd and absolutely screwed of Reuniclus gets a Sp.Defense drop.
You're wasting EVs on the primary set.
Even though Sableye is a brand new toy to most OU players, the mentality of "it has priority WoW so it's physical defensively immortal" died months and months ago in DW OU.
Sableye @ Leftovers Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Confuse Ray (Basically a filler slot. Confuse Ray is #1 on the set, but it's preference based really.)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Past%20Stats/august-2011/DW%20OU/302.html (Notice how even the Sp.Defensive set (5th Ranked Set) even runs Defense EVs)
What most people don't realize about this set, if they haven't been playing Dream World OU at all, is the EVs. It looks very thrown together, but it actually allows it to take hits from both sides reasonably well and perfectly take specific hits from OU threats. For instance, Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch will do 57.6% - 68.1% to Sableye meaning that if Sableye burns it after it's first Bullet Punch, Sableye is never 2HKOd with Leftovers. The reason that is important is Scizor is one of the few Physical Attackers that can hit Sableye before Will-O-Wisp burns it. If it doesn't run enough Defense, it will be forced to switch-out and come back in with less than 30% of it's HP left regardless of if WoW hits or not. Same story goes for Choice Band & +1 Dragonite. Outrage can do over 80% to Sp.Defensive Sableye while Dragonite is burned. The 128 Defense EVs let it completely stall-out Outrage with Recover then use the confusion to heal-up & switch Pokemon. Same goes for Haxorus.
The 128 Sp. Defense EVs let Sableye stall-out Jellicent with Taunt WoW, who is really the only Special Attacker Sableye has any business switching into. Which is exactly what running 252 EVs in Sp. Defense is a complete waste. Sableye has absolutely NO business switching into Special Attackers and the Special Attackers is can switch into are handled with 128 EVs. Trick Room Reuniclus LO Shadow Ball is handled no better with 252 Sp.Def than with 128. Sableye is still 3HKO'd and absolutely screwed of Reuniclus gets a Sp.Defense drop.
You're wasting EVs on the primary set.
Even though Sableye is a brand new toy to most OU players, the mentality of "it has priority WoW so it's physical defensively immortal" died months and months ago in DW OU.
Substitute should be considered for sets that use Toxic stalling, and offers good scouting over all if your opponent switches.
It keeps the priority at 0, not -7. It's just as if the pokemon's speed is put to 0 when it's holding it. So a Shadow Ball with Lagging Tail would come out before Roar or any other -Priority move.
Katakiri, why go 252/128/128 rather than 252/120/136 as you get a bonus point in Sp.def?
TM moves can always be passed down, no matter what TM it is. there may be exceptions, but i believe it applies in this situation.
Scorpio, these are better EVs as you get a bonus point in Sp.Def.
Little nitpick, but Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Quick Attack, Extremespeed, Fake Out and Feint make up 6 priority moves that Sableye is immune to.
Hey, I assume I can suggest sets here? Anyway, I'd like to make the not that Sableye has access to BOTH Stall and Metal Burst, which can be a deadly set.
name: Stall Metal Burst
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Metal Burst
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Confuse Ray/Taunt/Recover
item: Focus Sash
ability: Stall
nature: Brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Attack/4 Defense
This set, in a nutshell, is abusing the lowered priority for metal burst, meaning Sableye will take the hit, then give it back at 1.5 times power. Fake Out is to ensure other sashed things don't come in and mess it up, Taunt can be run to stop those who are PP stalling, or Confuse Ray if you still want Sableye to do that kind of thing. Toxic for stallers, and I guess recover could be run just in case.
I've tried this set at the generation's beginning, and it seemed to work well, so I dunno.
name: Stall Metal Burst
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Metal Burst
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Confuse Ray/Taunt/Recover
item: Focus Sash
ability: Stall
nature: Brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Attack/4 Defense
This set, in a nutshell, is abusing the lowered priority for metal burst, meaning Sableye will take the hit, then give it back at 1.5 times power. Fake Out is to ensure other sashed things don't come in and mess it up, Taunt can be run to stop those who are PP stalling, or Confuse Ray if you still want Sableye to do that kind of thing. Toxic for stallers, and I guess recover could be run just in case.
I've tried this set at the generation's beginning, and it seemed to work well, so I dunno.
For the Torment Set, you might want to mention a partner that can use Toxic Spikes as with-out residual damage, that set accomplishes nothing.
Added.
Mention Speed EVs in AC. You may want to outspeed Scizor and burn it before it bullet punches you to hell.
Okay, here is what I'd do, and if anybody objects, I'm going to assume that it's already been tested (unless it's plain objecture), and we're not theorymonning.
- Abolish the Torment set entirely. Sableye frankly doesn't have that good of a defensive typing (because 0 weaknesses means nothing when boosted attacks are KOing Spiritomb and Sableye left-and-right), and it needs drastic team support to be worked around (getting rid of Toxic Spikes and having Burn support, for example). If you haven't completed these factors, Torment Sableye is effectively dead weight. OC, at best.
- Get rid of mentions of extremely situational moves and items from the analysis, including: Knock Off, Punishment, Aiming Mark, and Sucker Punch.
- On the Calm Mind set: Make Will-O-Wisp the main option, since Sableye can already cripple and stall out opponents that resist Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Dark with burn (this also applies to UU Sigilyph).
- OO options: weather moves, Substitute, and abolish Snarl
If it's viable in OU, and it's getting an analysis, it must have it's own set suited and analyzed for OU, unless QC discreets otherwise.
The Priority Abuse set kinda IS Sableye from what I've seen and used, so tagging it with "OU" in the analysis, and having a different write-up form the UU set specifically mentioning what it can stop and what goes well with it, is not redundant at all. If it doesn't have that OU tag, then people will be misled into thinking that set isn't worth running in OU. Which is rather wrong.
EDIT: What he said. ^
EDIT 2: On the first set while we're on the topic, wouldn't a Calm nature be the best option over Careful? This reduces the goblin's Attack from 186 to 167 (or from 155 to 139 if wisely combined with a 0 IV). In the rare case that Sableye becomes confused, that minor change can reduce that self-inflicted damage, as well as reducing damage from opposing Foul Play users. It doesn't matter much, but since Careful literally does nothing to benefit Sableye in the stat-reducing part while Calm does, Calm seems the better - albeit quite situational - option. Also, reducing the HP down to 248 EV's (303 HP) reduces entry-hazard damage. Just sayin', as Sableye needs every point over a battle it can muster.
EDIT: What he said. ^
EDIT 2: On the first set while we're on the topic, wouldn't a Calm nature be the best option over Careful? This reduces the goblin's Attack from 186 to 167 (or from 155 to 139 if wisely combined with a 0 IV). In the rare case that Sableye becomes confused, that minor change can reduce that self-inflicted damage, as well as reducing damage from opposing Foul Play users. It doesn't matter much, but since Careful literally does nothing to benefit Sableye in the stat-reducing part while Calm does, Calm seems the better - albeit quite situational - option. Also, reducing the HP down to 248 EV's (303 HP) reduces entry-hazard damage. Just sayin', as Sableye needs every point over a battle it can muster.
I don't see the point of keeping the Trick set as part of Sableye's analysis. Although giving a sweeper a lagging tail can be crippling, the same is true about using Wilo-wisp on a physical sweeper. Although the argument can be made that by giving a special sweeper a lagging tail, i dont think Sableye's typing gives it the privilege of walling any special attacking threats. Additionally, wasting a move slot on a move that is likely going to only be used once, seems silly. Not to mention the fact that you are likely surrendering leftovers recovery in order to cripple a pokemon. Other than Sableye's ability, it is a mediocre pokemon, and that needs to be kept in mind when you are using diminishing some of its qualities to cripple a pokemon.
In Summary:
1. I would suggest removing the Trick set because of everything I have mentioned, but that's my personal opinion, and it could be false.
2. Thanks for reading and good luck getting this thread approved!
Note*: In the analysis of the Trick set, it says that tricking a lagging tail could be used to cripple walls but i feel that isn't really accurate because walls are generally slow and most of the time, losing leftovers will not spell doom for a wall with reliable recovery.
In Summary:
1. I would suggest removing the Trick set because of everything I have mentioned, but that's my personal opinion, and it could be false.
2. Thanks for reading and good luck getting this thread approved!
Note*: In the analysis of the Trick set, it says that tricking a lagging tail could be used to cripple walls but i feel that isn't really accurate because walls are generally slow and most of the time, losing leftovers will not spell doom for a wall with reliable recovery.
You're right about tricking walls and such a Lagging Tail not benefiting you much. Iron Ball on the other hand is a different story if you have something like Haxorus waiting in the wings and suddenly able to nail Skarmory with Earthquake, as well as it being now vulnerable to Spikes. I would think that Iron Ball is generally the superior of the two items for that reason alone. That Leftovers loss is pretty big too, as well as Eviolite for Chansey/Porygon2, but that applies to any Trick user not just lil' Sableye. Priority Will-o-wisp IS Sableye, though if you ask me, so on the Trick set I believe that needs to be the first slash over Taunt. Taunt is extremely useful, but on that set, it needs to be able to still do something once its Trick-item of choice is gone, and Will-o-wisp does just that.
On the subject of the Trick though, certain Choice items can really mess up opponents. However, while no single one can be fully endorsed because of team and situation differences, a mentioning of the three Choices would be a great and necessary addition in the AC.
That priority Trick is a cool niche for Sableye, so while I'm not QC I think it ought to stay on-site.
My post regarding the EV spreads also still needs consideration for all sets bar the Calm Mind one. Just sayin'.
On the subject of the Trick though, certain Choice items can really mess up opponents. However, while no single one can be fully endorsed because of team and situation differences, a mentioning of the three Choices would be a great and necessary addition in the AC.
That priority Trick is a cool niche for Sableye, so while I'm not QC I think it ought to stay on-site.
My post regarding the EV spreads also still needs consideration for all sets bar the Calm Mind one. Just sayin'.
I didn't think much into the implications of using Iron Ball, but you bring up a good point. But that scenario doesn't seem very realistic. I do agree with your point on Will-o-Wisp, if your running Sableye, it should needs to be in the move set. I'm still very skeptical about the Trick set though, maybe it's decent but it seems like it has some a lot of problems.
I find the situation quite realistic. If you're packing said Haxorus - just for the sake of example - then you prepare your team accordingly. It's just like Trick+Iron Ball Metagross last generation that became popular near the end. This amazing Prankster+Tricking ability is only shared by Switcheroo Whimsicott and fills an exclusive and effective niche, hence why it ought to be on site.
Although other than your opinion on Sableye's ability to take Special moves you highlighted in the previous post, what other problem with the Trick set do you have? The fact that you only use it once with the Ball/Tail/Choice items? While true you only give the Ball (assuming Iron Ball) away once, having such a perfect Trick absorber is awesome for any team not carrying something with Air Mail, Sticky Hold, Giratina-O or Arceus. Eviolite Chansey comes in? Oh you've already Tricked your Ball onto Skarmory. Still you steal that stone and reduce Chansey to an inferior of her sister. Tricked the Ball onto a sweeper already? Now you trick those Leftovers you got onto a different sweeper, or that Life Orb/Choice item onto their walls, crippling both in a way. I think it's a great set. I've come across a few that have aggravated me and shown their true worth to me. Then again, it's all a matter of opinion, here. XD
Although other than your opinion on Sableye's ability to take Special moves you highlighted in the previous post, what other problem with the Trick set do you have? The fact that you only use it once with the Ball/Tail/Choice items? While true you only give the Ball (assuming Iron Ball) away once, having such a perfect Trick absorber is awesome for any team not carrying something with Air Mail, Sticky Hold, Giratina-O or Arceus. Eviolite Chansey comes in? Oh you've already Tricked your Ball onto Skarmory. Still you steal that stone and reduce Chansey to an inferior of her sister. Tricked the Ball onto a sweeper already? Now you trick those Leftovers you got onto a different sweeper, or that Life Orb/Choice item onto their walls, crippling both in a way. I think it's a great set. I've come across a few that have aggravated me and shown their true worth to me. Then again, it's all a matter of opinion, here. XD