1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Sableye (Ubers Analysis) (Skeleton)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Furai, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Will get the Skeleton as soon as possible.

    Here are some logs;
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-ExampleTest-vs-BladeRoll--05--2011-at-16h13
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-ExampleTest-vs-Vanilla-Lime--05--2011-at-14h47 (Pretty damn long but Sableye took a main part there)
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-wilmer007-vs-ExampleTest--05--2011-at-16h31 (Laggy when switching, just pause and resume - SABLEYE WINS THE MATCH)

    QC checks: ,
    GP checks: ,

    [​IMG]

    Sableye

    [Overview]

    <p>• Very good Stallbreaker
    • One of the best Extremekiller counters
    • Very good Spinblocker
    • Not so great defenses
    • Prankster simply is a godsend for Sableye
    • Unique typing that creates no weaknesses only shared with Spiritomb
    </p>

    [SET]
    name: Prankster Abuser
    move 1: Taunt
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Will-O-Wisp
    move 4: Foul Play / Knock Off
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>• Full abuse of Prankster
    • Taunt breaks through stall, Will-O-Wisp breaks Offensive teams apart
    • Priority Recover is just BOSS, amazing for ToxicStalling PP Stalling
    • Foul Play is for damage and more efficient to beat Arceus and Rayquaza with, Toxic and Knock Off for better stalling
    • Can cause lots of switching
    • Kyogre and Tentacruel are very good teammates due to rain and Rapid Spin; Sableye can't really beat Fire- type Pokemon and does not appreciate Toxic Spikes and these two handle them very well.
    • Chansey can spread away Wishes and and Heal Bell if needed.
    </p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>• A different EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD can be used in order to take Physical hits better
    • Cleric support and Rapid Spin are always good, because Sableye doesn't enjoy Status / Toxic Spikes
    • Entry hazards are delightful because Sableye can cause lots of switching
    </p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>• Confuse Ray
    • Night Shade
    • Punishment
    • Trick
    • Toxic
    </p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>• No weaknesses
    • Not that great bulk
    • Hit hard
    • Any fire type like Heatran, Reshiram, Ho-oh - especially under SUN
    • Special attacks coming from any strong Special attacker like Darkrai, Kyogre, Shaymin-S, Dialga
    • Heracross will appreciate the burn and does not give a fuck about Foul Play, not that Sableye will stand a chance after Guts activation
    • Other faster Prankster users like Thundurus, Whimsicott, Tornadus that carry Taunt
    </p>
  2. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Skeleton is UP ! :D
    Feel free to share more nitpicks and QC checks
  3. verbatim

    verbatim Red like Roses
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,327
    How are you going to toxic stall with recover. It seems like anything that isn't immune will kill Sableye in one hit.
  4. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    It can stall out defensive stuff like SubRoost Lugia (!!!), SubToxic Gliscor - by breaking the sub by using Taunt and Support Groudon. On more offensive stuff, it can't really do that, I agree. I should note that and try Toxic on Sableye. Thanks for the nitpick.
  5. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,978
    Move Toxic to Other Options, priority Will-O-Wisp is Sableye's main niche. I'd probably dump Trick to Other Options as well since Sableye's poor defenses mean it really needs Leftovers to help it survive.

    Still not sure about this since Sableye's defenses are crap even with investment (making it screwed by pretty much any strong Special attacker like Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Mewtwo, Kyogre, etc etc etc). Priority Will-O-Wisp is neat but remember that Sableye can't really touch Fire-types like Ho-Oh/Reshiram (which also means it probably works better on rain teams). It seems like it has quite a few selling points though.

    Also Heatran is pretty much a perfect Sableye counter, js.
  6. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,229
    Make sure you include these:

    Counters:
    - Any strong special attacker (Kyogre, anything with STAB Draco Meteor, Darkrai, Shaymin-S, offensive Calm Mind Arceus variants)
    - Fire types (Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Blaziken, Heatran, Fire Arceus), ESPECIALLY in the sun
    - HeraBOSS
    - Other Prankster users (Whimsicott, Thundurus, Tornadus)

    I wouldn't call it amazing, to be honest. It has its own uses, but far from amazing.

    On that comment of "amazing", I really think Sableye is getting overhyped here. It's kind of like

    Show Hide
    Gyarados


    in the sense that it probably has a niche, but its stats are just so crap that he's just shaky at best.
  7. mazzulmaz

    mazzulmaz

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    184
    you say it has a unique typing, but that is not true since Spiritomb has the same typing as Sableye.
  8. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Okay guys, thank you very much for posts!

    I'll mention the counters; Trick is OO material indeed at second thought, probably Toxic too, I'll need to test it.

    Fire types are a pain, but they're not that common. Still deserves a mention.

    Sableye can probably beat any physical attacker (well, besides Guts users and BU Dialga) due to Will-O-Wisp having priority, and decentish Defense, which gives Sableye his main niche as said.

    I'll add those counters, thanks!

    I probably did go too far with his capabilities, I'll change that.

    Show Hide
    js Gyarados could be a very nice partner to Sableye as it beats the crap out of Fire mons!!!


    I meant that it's unique by not many Pokemon having this typing. I'll mention that it's only Sable and Spiritomb.


    Thanks guys, keep those comin'!
  9. alex 67

    alex 67

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    269
    I'm sorry but I really can't see why you would use Sableye over Ghost Arceus or Giratina. Giratina has quite literally triple the Defenses and Ghost Arceus has double the defenses with enough Speed to beat what it needs to without Prankster (Extremekiller/Groudon) and has recovery also in addition to an offensive threat. Sableye simply just doesn't have the raw stats to function in ubers considering base 150 special attack is quite standard and any special attack will simply murder it. Against offense it's almost complete dead weight and even ubers stall teams like to have an offensive poke or two for killing enemy Ferrothorn and such. As a stallbreaker Ghost Arceus, Dark Arceus or even CM Giratina-O can break stall much more effectively while still having use against more offensive teams. Even taking physical attacks from things like Zekrom is ify considering the standard Choice Band set always 2hkoes easily with Outrage assuming it's burned and if it isn't I'm sure you can imagine what happens. 75% is far from reliable.
  10. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Giratina-o has no reliable recovery move and can't really touch Ferrothorn in rain with HP Fire. Giratina gets walled by Sableye too, but indeed it has better defenses, however it must not risk a crit from +2 E-Killer Shadow Claw and can't really take a +2 Shadow Force. With priority Will-O-Wisp Sableye can burn SD Arceus Ghost before it Shadow Forces on it, take that hit and Foul Play or switch to something like Ferrothorn for Iron Barbs damage.
    Sableye can deal with the main Physical attackers of Offensive teams like DDQuaza, Extremekiller and RP Groudon.
    CB Zekrom is much more easier to deal with when burned, and Sableye can do that with an ease. Sableye can heal later anyway lol
  11. sammao

    sammao

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    223
    Agree with Alex 67, according to damage calculation, a CB Zekrom does 102% - 120.4% with Outrage to your sableye, this is a 2HKO even with the burn. You cannot deal with DDQuaza either because a +1, life Orb, burned Outrage does 60.5% - 71.4% to you, a solid 2HKO. You can deal with Extremekiller and RP groudon, but why don't I run Lugia, Giratina-A or defensive Groudon instead when they can deal with more threat? Not to mention W-O-W can miss. I am not saying this is completely outclassed, but I think you really need to proof how it differentiate itself from the pokemon I mentioned.
  12. alex 67

    alex 67

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    269
    Sableye's niche is simply too small for ubers and Ghost Arceus can do it's job practically just as well while being able to do other things. It's just like Steelix in a way. Steelix is a perfect counter to Zekrom can can take some Dragon attacks however it can do little else. Sableye is an overspecialized counter to Extremekiller Arceus with absolutely awful defenses. Also speaking of Zekrom how does Sableye handle it with "ease". Sableye is taking 51% minimum and 60% maximum if it's burned so that doesn't sound like a very solid check to me.
  13. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Think of your team. Think of how priority Will-O-Wisp and Taunt can help you; Zekrom's Outrage can be outstalled atleast for the part where he gets Confusioned, and think of how well Ferrothorn would be able to deal with CB Zekrom, as Bolt Strike does ~45% when not burned. Sableye is an amazing supporter, and Arceus-Ghost can't Taunt and is losing to Chansey which is one of the most common Pokemon in Stall teams.
  14. alex 67

    alex 67

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    269
    So what if Arceus-Ghost can't Taunt. It wouldn't use the move even if it gets it simply because it can actually take stuff down instead of trying to wear it out with Will-O-Wisp. Chansey isn't going to be lasting vary long against a physical ghost arceus either since Brick Break isn't going to be pleasant for Chansey. Ghost Arceus is also a better team supporter since it can always use Will-O-Wisp and actually stall something like CB Zekrom thanks to its good defenses. It also gets Stealth Rock, probably the best supporting move in the game. Sableye on the other hand needs stuff to be burned to even attempt walling stuff and it can do little else besides burning an opposing poke. A wall that can't comfortably take the attacks it's supposed to and really can't take special attacks at all is simply not viable. Also how is it going to get past Ho-Oh probably the strongest physical attacker. Beat it to death with Knock Off? I don't think so.
  15. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    LOL Physical Arceus-Ghost who even uses this? It also gets walled by Sableye as well :P
    Sableye is more of a Supporter, it's job is to Support its team. So think of how easy Physical threats will be able to deal with when burned. Sure, it does not perform as a wall against many stuff, but same as Arceus-Ghost. Arceus-Ghost also is set up bait btw :P
    And it's not like Arceus-Ghost can deal with Ho-oh, and tbh Extremekiller is far more threatening. Plus, if in rain, Sableye can take Sacred Fire and has a 66.67% chance to 2HKO with Foul Play and SR damage. Also, Sableye can take a LO Brave Bird (that's p boss) when at full health:
    416 Atk vs 273 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 255 - 301 (83.88% - 99.01%)
  16. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,229
    Eh, I don't know why I bothered to waste my time testing this thing, but I did. I kind of chucked on my Rock All team just to gauge its ability. So, I'll give my impressions:

    - Sableye can be really good occasionally, and can really shine when you're up against stuff like Groudon / Terrakion / Extremekiller, but mostly, it is just really bad. You cannot switch into ANYTHING without losing over 50% of your health, and it was death fodder for the most part. It took fucking 55% from a Tentacruel's Scald. Granted, that was in the rain, but you still have to remember that Tentacruel's Scald is weak as shit, and to be 2HKOed by something like that just proves that Sableye's stats are just simply too shit. Getting 2HKOed by one of the common spin-blockers in the tier is just crap.
    - It is a massive, massive magnet for anything with a really powerful attack. Yes, I know other Pokemon like Hippowdon is like that as well, but Sableye does not contribute anything to the team whatsoever. It just sits there and does absolutely nothing. Running Sableye is just a massive liability. Kind of like Umbreon, if you will.

    Firstly, there are plenty of people who run SD Ghost Arceus. It is a very good set. Secondly, Adamant Ho-Oh's max Attack is 394, not 416. However, that is irrelevant since you're still being 2HKOed and Sableye has done absolutely nothing to Ho-Oh.


    Not worth it, IMO.
  17. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    I have thought about using Sableye in Ubers earlier but I stopped using it after I saw how horrible its defenses are especially when uninvested. That said, Sableye does beat SD Normal and Ghost Arceus provided Will-O-Wisp hits. It can sort of beat non Offensive Excadrill but Will-O-Wisp has to hit or Sableye is smashed. Like what shrang said, Sableye cannot come in on anything offensive which sucks both as a wall and a spin blocker. Getting 2HKOed by Tentacruel's pathetic Scald is horrible.

    Should be rapid spinner KOing the spinblocker.

    Skarmory also beats all the SD Arceus formes, including Dragon, so Sableye's niche isn't shining in physical Arceus killing. Sableye can potentially annoy CB Zekrom but Ghost Arceus walls CB Zekrom with Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Giratina formes are extremely bulky, has great STABs and access to powerful moves and phazing.
  18. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,229
    Okay, I'm on the verge of rejecting this, but extra testing using a Specially Defensive spread has turned out slightly better than I expected, although I'm still not convinced it deserves an analysis yet. Before I make a final decision, though, change the spread to 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Careful, you're not going to beat stuff like CB Zekrom even with your heavily invested Defense. It's better to at least be able to beat Tentacruel and be able to spinblock the jellyfish, and not get destroyed by Calm Mind Mewtwo (which you now stall out Ice Beam versions). Excadrill runs bulky spreads more these days and you have a chance to stall it for a little bit, I guess.

    I'll report back after testing a bit more (if PO stops disconnecting me), but I wouldn't be TOO hopeful.
  19. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    Editted.
  20. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Nitpick here, coming at yeah :D.

    Kyogre does not handle toxic spikes <.< at all unless its cro ogre but then I think you want a zekrom to slap you across the face with a banded bolt strike o.0, which also annoys sableye since it is now being "specially defensive".

    Also no mention of the mystical Xatu as a counter? GASP D:. It sets reflect up and can roost your foul plays off with its pathetic attack stat, best part is it can come in while you try taunting and just lol. If it has toxic sableye can just cry as it becomes useless.
  21. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,978
    After testing Sableye for two days, I've concluded that it's just not really worth an analysis. The stuff it can do with Prankster is awesome, but it just doesn't have the stats to work consistently.

    QC REJECTED (1/3)
  22. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,000
    Sableye can work well in OU but no in Ubers because it doesn't have the bulk to spin block or wall efficiently. It does beat SD Arceus but so can things like Giratina. You can only focus on one side of the spectrum, which is bad since Sableye dies to so many Special Attacks in Ubers.

    Countering SD Arceus is also done better by Skarmory who checks ALL physical Arceus without Thunder or Fire-attacks. Getting 2HKOed by Tentacruel isn't fun either because Sableye is supposed to spin block. Giratina is better for all out defensive, Giratina-O for a hell lot more offense, Ghost Arceus for whatever you use it for.

    QC REJECTED (2/3)
  23. barry4ever

    barry4ever
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    877
    Shrang and me had discussed this at length and both of us were on the fence about this. One of the many things both of us agreed on was that Sableye was forced to play the Prankster Recover game quite often and that would end up Sableye dying due to a critical hit. Also Sableye's bulk leaves something to be desired, no matter on which side you EV it; its quite frail. The 252 Def spread gets 2HKOed by Tentacruel in rain and a Blissey Fire Blast in sun; 252 SpD, allows you to take Special Attacks better but now you are quite lacking in Defense. I even tried out a 116 Def / 140 SpD spread but that was still quite subpar. Add to all this that Sableye gets stiff competition from Giratina, which has 10X bulk, useful resistances and access to phazing moves, Sableye doesnt really stand up to the high expectations.

    Dont get me wrong, I still think Sableye is good in Ubers but it isnt good "enough". Sorry bro.

    QC REJECTED (3/3)
  24. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    And with that, we draw to a close. Better luck next time.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)