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SACRIFICE

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by acreland, May 3, 2013.

  1. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    1sac•ri•fice
    noun \ˈsa-krə-ˌfīs, also -fəs or -ˌfīz\
    Definition of SACRIFICE
    1
    a : something offered in sacrifice
    2
    a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
    b : something given up or lost


    Competitive Pokemon shares a lot of similarities to a game of chess. You have six different pieces which have different potential. The maximum potential of a piece is only achieved through careful planning, outplaying your opponent, and most importantly- sacrifice. Knowing which pieces to give up to your opponent and when, and knowing what you need to achieve in return for the sacrifice, is the only way to succeed in the brutally hard-hitting Ubers tier.

    This team aims to make these trade-offs as simple as possible while simultaneously limiting the momentum of your opponent. I peaked at ±1970ish with this team on the PS! ladder with very little difficulty, and anyone with even a modicum of battling skill can easily replicate or surpass that. I’m hoping some people who haven’t played Ubers much will read this and realize it’s actually an awesome tier with a lot of strategy involved, and not just noobs who are positive they’ll win because they’re using the all-powerful Charizard…



    [​IMG]
    Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Void
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick
    STRATEGY (open)
    The Pawn.
    Although Gen 5 hasn’t been kind to dedicated leads, Darkrai just does the job so well I never find a situation where another team mate would be a better starting option. The strategy is simple; start off with Dark Void against pretty much everything (hahaha sleeping Scarf Genesect):

    • If Darkrai misses and is KO’d, you bring in a favourable match up for free. If you survive, DV again unless they send out a non-boosting priority user so you can sleep/trick something later. If it can boost on your switch (ie ExtremeKiller), then stay in and DV again. Losing Darkrai is better than letting your opponent set-up on a coin toss.
    • If the opponent has a Lum/Chesto berry and you survive their attack, stay in and Dark Void again. If you get KO’d, you bring in a counter for free.
    • If you Sleep something that would normally outspeed an unboosted Darkrai (ie. Scarf Kyogre/Genesect), switch immediately to another team member because your Scarf has been exposed and your opponent knows (if their IQ is above 11) that you’ll switch or be set-up on. Palkia is normally the safest option as it does a fair job of handling both non-lead hazard setters and set-up Pokemon, but using team preview to work out their switch shouldn’t be too challenging. If they have a really heavy-hitter or solid scout it will likely show its face now.
    • If DV connects on something normally slower than Darkrai, switch to something that handles their best Darkrai counter (ie. If they have Terrakion, switch to Groudon), as that would be their most logical move.
    • If they switch to something seemingly useful in the game to take the Sleep, it’s likely carrying Sleep Talk. Switch in a counter to their status absorber to keep the momentum.
    • If they switch to something of limited use in the battle, they’ll likely go back to their initial lead or a Darkrai counter. Switching to something that generally fairs well against both of these (read: Palkia) is the best bet. Use team preview to work out your best switch though.
    • The only exception is against teams with a Magic Bounce user, Deoxys-S or Deoxys-D (Magic Coat). In this instance Trick is the go-to move. They may get SR up early, but you get immediate pressure and limit their hazards. Also, you can cripple their switch in with Sleep, rendering two Pokemon useless. Nice.

    Once Darkrai has succeeded in crippling something, it remains useful in certain situations. Keeping it alive after its lead domination can be useful in the event your opponent carries either one of the Pink Blobs, Lugia, Ho-Oh, or a slow boosting sweeper like Groudon, as it can trick them the Scarf to limit their usefulness. Its blistering speed and POWER!, coupled with great coverage in Focus Blast & STAB Dark Pulse, can also be used for revenging the likes of Deoxys-A, opposing Darkrai, and Special based Arceus (please don’t try Trick Arceus…) if required. This can help to conserve ExtremeSpeed PP. If it isn’t required for any of these roles outside of leading, it serves as death fodder to provide a safe switch for something else.

    The Nature & EVs are straightforward- max Spd + to tie with opposing Darkrai when/if the Scarf has been tricked & max POWER! for hurting stuff. The leftovers go in Def to give Genesect a SpAtk boost instead of Atk, to sometimes survive a U-Turn if Dark Void misses. 0 Atk IVs are to minimize damage from the rare Confusion hax or Foul Play. Scarf is obviously required for the set to function.

    While it may seem a waste to use such an offensive juggernaut primarily in a supporting capacity, nothing else can fill all the roles it does so well while still having some surprise factor. A great Pokemon and a great set.



    [​IMG]
    Palkia @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Flamethrower
    STRATEGY (open)
    The Bishop.
    Palkia serves as a general utility for this team. While normally seen as a scarf’d revenge killer, I’ve opted for a wallbreaker and general switch in.

    As a general rule and for a few reasons, Palkia is my usual switch in after Darkrai has done its job. 100 Base Spd in Ubers is pretty great. Very few unboosted Pokemon commonly seen in Ubers are faster than that, and the ones that are generally can’t 1HKO. This means Palkia gets to fire off a brutally powerful attack 99.9% of the time. Should Palkia get KO’d however, it’s not a disaster- it often gives you vital information about the opponents Pokemon (ie. Is their ‘mon scarf’d/spec’d/life orb etc) and also gives you a free switch to whichever wall is most appropriate. For instance, an unboosted Mewtwo Psystrike fails to KO at full health so you either: Destroy it with Specs DM, get KO’d and know what boosting item it holds and switch in Dialga to tank an attack and cripple it or the switch in. It’s also a great Kyogre switch in, it quad resists Water Spout and if your opponent predicts correctly and uses Thunder you will still know instantly what item it holds. Specs will do monstrous damage but you’ll outspeed next turn and severely dent ‘Ogre with DM rendering its best move useless allowing Dialga a safe switch after Palkia gets KO’d. If it outspeeds you know it’s scarf’d and Dialga comes in for free to take little damage and cripple it or a switch in.

    Specs are the item of choice here as Palkia is used as a wallbreaker and outside of that is used as a sacrificial lamb to safely switch in a wall without taking damage. Due to these roles max POWER! is required to do insane damage and avoid being setup bait. Scarf is great for revenge killing but not required on this team and switching attacks with Lustrous Orb is appealing but the loss in POWER! is noticeable.

    The moves are fairly standard. Draco Meteor destroys pretty much everything, while Surf is a powerful and reliable secondary STAB particularly in the omnipresent Drizzle of Ubers. Dragon Pulse is chosen over Spacial Rend for two reasons- I hate inaccurate moves and the low PP of Spacial Rend is dried up too fast for my liking with all the Pressure Pokemon running amok in Ubers, especially on a move I like to spam to avoid special attack drops from DM. The difference in damage output is also negligible after factoring in the Specs boost. Flamethrower (because Fire Blast has 4% accuracy) is mostly filler for catching an unsuspecting Ferrothorn/Forretress on the switch. You can use Thunder instead to hit Lugia, Ho-Oh and Kyogre hard. Note though that Thunder has a pathetic 50% accuracy if Groudons Drought is in play. I’ve tested both and found limited use either way, so it’s up to personal preference.

    Max speed + to get the jump on all the 90 and 95 base speed threats and max POWER! for, well, POWER!. The remainder go into SpD for what it’s worth. 0 Atk IVs for the same reason as Darkrai.

    Palkia may be the most expendable member of this team, but it is so by design. Allowing your opponent to think they have the upper hand by KO’ing it and thereby giving a crippler a safe switch are what it’s here for. Well, that, and smashing faces.



    [​IMG]
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder Wave
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake
    STRATEGY (open)
    The Castle.
    Is there a better Pokemon to be labelled a castle? I think not. This guy just sits there and laughs at physical hits all day while setting Rocks and paralyzing stuff. Part one of this teams dedicated walls.

    Groudon fulfils a few key roles for this team. He sets Rocks when necessary (Rocks are always necessary, I’ll explain this later), changes the weather if required, cripples opponents with paralysis, phazes boosted ‘mons and generally shuffle the opposition, and serves as the primary check to dangerous physical sweepers such as ExtremeKiller, Zekrom, Terrakion, Excadrill and some Rayquaza, to name a few. He can tank hits from them all then cripple, phaze, or set Rocks in their face, whichever is applicable to the particular situation.

    As mentioned during the analysis of the previous two members, bringing Groudon in without taking prior damage by sacrificing something can be crucial. Due to the fact that he lacks recovery, getting the most out of his HP is advisable- particularly when he’s covering the likes of the threats mentioned. When he’s not needed for a particular role mentioned above or has already fulfilled it, he serves as a suicide Rock setter and sacrifice.

    Stealth Rock is the best move in the game and helps keep certain threats under control (I’m looking at you, Ho-Oh). Earthquake is strong, reliable STAB that hits with quite a bit of POWER! despite the lack of attack investment. Dragon Tail is used for shuffling and is chosen over Roar because it allows Groudon to hit Flying/Levitating foes and can’t be Taunted. Thunder Wave, in my opinion, is the second most valuable move in Ubers. Paralyzing the likes of Genesect, Darkrai, Palkia, Rayquaza, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Kyurem-W (insert every other offensive ‘mon in the tier, this list is getting too long) makes a game a whole lot easier to win. Even some defensive powerhouses are screwed over by paralysis, but more on that later.

    Nature and EVs are simply to maximize Defence. The spare four go to Speed instead of Attack in case of opposing min Speed Groudon trying to phaze. Lefties for recovery.

    Overall, Groudon is a crucial member of this team and a big part of why it is successful. There is nothing else that could play all the parts it does in one set.



    [​IMG]
    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SAtk / 200 SDef
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunder Wave
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar
    STRATEGY (open)
    The Queen.
    Dialga is part two of the dedicated walls, and probably the MVP of this team. The amount of damage this thing can take and dish out is ridiculous- even by Ubers standards.

    While many opt for a full out offensive variant, I find this to be Dialgas best set. Able to tank special hits, including 2 x Spacial Rends (!), full POWER! Water Spout (!) and even Aura sphere from Mewtwo (!) is incredible. Being able to then cripple all those threats with Thunder Wave just makes it even better. The great resistances offered by her (she’s the Queen, hence “her”) unique typing serve to back up the incredible bulk further. Immunity to Toxic/T-Spikes is also great for a tank.

    At this stage you may be thinking I’m slightly dim for pretty much duplicating Groudons set here, but there’s a good reason. The typing and stat distributions of the two complement each other nicely and they serve to cock-block a large portion of the metagame. I’ve already explained how important T-Wave is to this team, so having it on both of my walls is vital. Groudon paralyzes the physical threats (or special if your opponent switches) while Dialga does the same on the other side of the spectrum. They cover each other perfectly so one isn’t stretched too thin; they then methodically set about debilitating the offence of the opposition.

    Stealth Rock features on both because it is a crucial move in every match. By having both carry SR, it all but guarantees Rocks are going up. During team preview you can quickly decide which wall is the most important for that particular battle and then dedicate the other one as your SR setter. 10~20% health saved on something that needs to tank a hit can win you the match, so a turn of setting SR better be used by the most dispensable wall. Preserving an important cog and guaranteeing Rocks? Duplicating SR doesn’t seem so daft now, does it! Sorry, moving on…

    Converse to Groudon, Roar is the more appropriate move to use over Dragon Tail. Unlike Groudon, a coverage attack isn’t required and the ability to phaze threats behind a Sub is far more valuable than a slight amount of damage IMO.

    Dragon Pulse is reliable STAB, and with the minor EV investment and Modest nature it’s got a ton of POWER! for a “wall”.

    Pro Tip: Something to note on both Dialga and Groudon; if they’re up against something faster than them which is likely to stay in but can’t KO your wall and can be KO’d in return, always go for T-Wave instead of KO’ing (eg. Scarf Palkia can’t 1HKO Dialga, but she can KO in return). The reasoning is that if you have to take a hit anyway, cripple them and KO the following turn to get a free turn of lefties recovery. It may only be 6.25% HP, but it adds up and you never know when you’ll need it.

    I’ve already mentioned the use of the EVs and nature but to recap; they ensure Dialga isn’t 2HKO’d by two Spacial Rends or ‘Ogre Water Spout if it isn’t Specs boosted. The rest is pumped into SAtk with a Modest nature for more POWER!. At this point I feel I don’t have to explain the Atk IV’s anymore.

    The glue of the team and it wouldn’t function half as well without her, the best tank in the game. What a boss.



    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-Sky @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Substitute
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power
    STRATEGY (open)
    The Knight.
    Ah Skymin, the cutest Uber of all (shut up, Manaphy), but also the most annoying… This little murderer ploughs through the physical walls that try stand in the Kings way, and special ones too with a little luck. While still technically here in a support role, Skymin is the first dedicated part of the offensive core.

    While this little dog/horse/thing may seem insignificant compared to the rest of the tier at first glance, with a little support it can be deadly. Even the sturdiest special walls can be overcome by this little critter. On more than one occasion I have flinched my way past paralyzed Ho-Oh, Lugia and even a last ‘mon Chansey- Serene Grace boosted Air Slash on a paralyzed opponent should be illegal. Couple this with an 80% chance two-stage special defence drop from a high POWER! Seed Flair, boosted further by STAB, and nothing is safe. Should a potential counter such as Dialga not suffer a SpD drop on the switch or paralysis, they are swiftly mauled by a super effective Earth Power, which also comes with a potential SpD drop. Earth Power is also used to finish off low health opponents so as not to risk a miss from either of Skymins STAB moves. As you can see, the four best switch-ins to Skymin all have the potential to lose to it without ever having the chance to fire off an attack.

    The other way to try tackle Skymin is by attacking it with something faster or priority. Due to its frailty it’s not taking many hits, so having a Sub up is of paramount importance. You can scout items, avoid status, survive an attack, get off one last attack before going down or switching, or even waste valuable PP on moves such as ExtremeSpeed- all made possible by Substitute.

    If your opponent is not mildly retarded, they will keep their priority and/or Scarf user safe after seeing Skymin in team preview so you may not be able to rely on paralyzing their check. Of course, sacrificing Skymin to one of these Pokemon could be exactly the opportunity you need to bring in Arceus to boost and sweep, as Skymin usually only makes an appearance towards the end of a game once the opposition is weakened. Scarf Genesect is a prime example: Skymins EVs ensure it gets an attack boost instead of SpAtk. Always Sub first turn to scout. If it U-Turns you are free to attack the switch in from behind a Sub, if it attacks you can do some decent damage on the next turn before being taken out. Arceus is then free to Sword Dance up as Genesect switches or proceeds to attack it with a relatively weak, unboosted Ice Beam or Flamethrower.

    Obvious Nature and EVs are obvious. Max Spd+ to be fast, max POWER! to hurt stuff, and I’ve already explained the other four. 0 Atk blah blah blah.

    Skymin is awesome. If my dog was this cool I’d let it sleep on the couch and feed it steak every day. Shaymin-S helps soften walls, provides free switch-ins, scouts sets and items, occasionally sweeps, and looks cool doing it.



    [​IMG]
    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Earthquake
    STRATEGY (open)
    The King.
    And here we have it, the best sweeper ever to exist. Once the rest of the team have done their jobs and Arceus gets a boost, it’s GG.

    ExtremeKiller is the most devastating moveset in the game. At +2, a STAB & Silk Scarf boosted, 80 Base POWER! priority move coming off 120 base Atk slaughters everything but ghosts. Pretty much the rest of the tier is 1HKO’d. Even some resists like Genesect are taken out at ±70% HP.

    Earthquake and Shadow Claw are there for Steel and Ghost Types respectively and can be used to conserve ExtremeSpeed PP if they’ll achieve a KO without Arceus taking damage. Brick Break can be used instead of Earthquake but I prefer the higher POWER! of EQ and the fact that it’s a non-contact move which comes in handy against Ferrothorn. Shadow Force is a more powerful option over Shadow Claw but I don’t like giving the opponent a free turn to switch. It’s more effective if you have Spikes support, but for this team just stick to Shadow Claw.

    Getting a Sword Dance off is fairly easy thanks to Arceus’ epic bulk and skyrockets its attack to hideous levels. Even Scarf Palkia is inviting a sweep if Arceus is at full HP.

    While Arceus does have seemingly everything going for it, there are a few things to note.

    • Don’t play recklessly- Avoid all hits until you’re ready to sweep because the extra HP will allow you to set up against much more powerful attacks and/or survive opposing Arceus ExtremeSpeed.
    • Conserve ExtremeSpeed PP- I can’t stress this enough; ExtremeKiller is a sweeper not a revenge killer. Ubers is filled with Pressure Pokemon which will drain the measly 8PP in the blink of an eye. Don’t revenge with this unless it’s absolutely necessary (read: played terribly and put yourself in a horrendous position). Paralysis helps with this too; knowing you’ll outspeed a Mewtwo, for example, allows you to KO it with Shadow Claw instead of ESpeed.
    • Be patient- Trying to sweep too early can render Arceus null. Ideally you want to wait till you can sweep through 3-4 Pokemon with +2 ExtremeSpeed alone or take them out with a coverage move without taking a hit. For example, if you opponent still has a healthy Ferrothorn and Giratina around they will drain your PP, whittle down your HP, and probably cripple you with status. Wearing these walls down to a level where Arceus can take them out in 1 hit is vitally important unless you want your sweep cut short.

    The Spd investment is to speed creep the speed creepers- 168 is all that’s required to outpace base 90’s, especially Rayquaza so you don’t eat an ESpeed before your own hits. Max Atk Adamant for, yes you guessed it, POWER!. The balance is dumped into HP for a bit of added bulk.

    So that’s the centrepiece, the reason all the other members are dubbed supporters, the King. While I know this isn’t an exciting new set and I don’t use any Gen 5 Pokemon, the classics are classics for a reason. Sacrifice a few teammates to clear the way for ExtremeKiller to sweep, tried and tested, and when done with a little patience- unstoppable



    [​IMG]
    Threat List
    THREATS (open)
    Charizard: I can’t begin to express the absolute devastation caused by a Hardy, un-EV’d, Charcoal boosted Charizards’ Fire Fang... Seriously though; if you’re reading this and you thought my previous sentence was at all sincere, please don’t play Ubers (or any Tier for that matter).

    In all honesty, the entire Ubers tier is one long threat list. If you’ve read and understood the workings of the team, you will see that it has been specifically designed to deal with all this pressure (no pun intended). Being outplayed is the only true threat to this team. The following, however, are the threats that you need to take the most care with when playing against.

    Ho-Oh: Sub Roost can be problematic, burnt Walls aren’t fun. Keep Rocks up and it’s pretty easy to handle. Becomes a liability if it’s paralyzed.

    Excadrill: Odd how the little previously OU sand mole should pose a problem. Not being able to paralyze it is what makes it a nuisance. Play smart with Groudon and you’ve got it covered.

    ExtremeKiller: A threat to every team. Don’t try paralyze this unless it’s on the switch, phazing is the way to go. Slowing down a bulky priority sweeper doesn’t help if it’s at +2/4. Again, don’t play like a jackass and you’ll be fine.

    Reshiram Hits incredibly hard and if sun is up it's just more devastating. Choice Specs is the biggest problem, Scarf can be played around easier. If it gets a free turn on something that doesn't immediately threaten it, somethings going down. Stealth Rock and paralysis limit its usefulness and longevity though. Overall, smart play is required to limit the hurt it lays down. Thanks Trainer AU, this should have been in the threat list from the start.

    Kyurem-W Same as Reshiram minus the sun boost. This things got some POWER!. Bastard...

    Donkey That guy hates this team...



    Importable
    IMPORTABLE (open)
    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Atk / 176 Spd / 80 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Earthquake

    Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Void
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick

    Palkia @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Flamethrower

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 4 Spd / 252 HP / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder Wave
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake

    Shaymin-Sky @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Substitute
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SAtk / 200 SDef
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunder Wave
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar



    This RMT took 143 billion hours to put together so I hope you’ve enjoyed reading it. I invite you to rate, hate, steal, luvdisc, or whatever else you want to do with it. Thanks for reading.
  2. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    5 Luvdiscs & 285 views but no rates? Bumping this.
  3. Trainer Au

    Trainer Au Insert custom title here

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    269
    Hey cool team, sorry about the lack of rates, us ubers players are shy I guess.
    I'm kidding guys don't kill me.

    Anyways on to my rate,

    First of all, I just want to say that your threat list looks really...weird. You list Exca as a problem to your team when you have ScarfRai (probably outspeeds, I'm not sure) and Groudon. E-Killer is in fact a massive threat to your team when you have a weakened Groudon, and Ho-Oh and pretty much cleanly 6-O you in sun. I'm not trying to be mean but I just encourage you to make your threat list, for lack of a better word, better.

    But I want to be helpful in this rate so lets see if I can't make your team worse :P.

    While Charizard is not a problem for your team, Reshiram definitely is, whenever it comes in, something dies. Your team also doesn't like any strong special dragon attack, for this reason, I suggest Ho-Oh.

    Ho-Oh's set:
    Show Hide


    Ho-Oh @Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Evs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 8 SpD
    Impish Nature
    -Sacred Fire
    -Roost
    -Substitute
    -Brave Bird

    This Ho-Oh set, while not posing that much of an offensive threat, (although sun boosted SF stings and BB is still strong) gives you insurance against opposing Ho-Ohs, Mewtwo, and special dragon attacks, (use this as a pivot then go into dialga) something your team would really appreciate.


    I suggest Ho-Oh over Shaymin, since shaymin doesn't seem to be supporting your team all that much

    Now Stealth Rock off of the field is a must, special dragon attacks are still a problem, and E-Killer LOVES hazards to do its job, so Forretress is an obvious pick.

    Forre's set:

    Show Hide


    Forretress @Leftovers
    Trait: Strudy
    Evs: 252 HP/ 4 Def/ 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    -Rapid Spin
    -Spikes
    -Toxic
    -Volt Switch

    Forre will help against Dragons, provides spikes support, spins for Ho-Oh and can gain momentum with VS.
    Rapid Spin-Obv
    Spikes-Obv
    Toxic-Toxic spin blockers on the switch
    VS-Lets Forre take the hit then go into a different mon, gains switch initiative for you.


    Forre should probably go in place of Darkrai, and then Palkia should be a scarfed set.

    Now for some small nitpicks.

    I've always hated T-Wave on Groudon, I think Stone Edge would benefit you more, like against Ho-Oh.
    2 SR setters is pretty silly, change one of em.

    That's all I got, hope I helped! Luvdisc'd =]
  4. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Hey Trainer AU, shot for the rate and Luvdisc!

    I agree my threat list is slightly pathetic. After spending so much time writing the RMT I just stuck in a brief overview because the thought of more in-depth writing made me nauseous.

    You're correct in saying Darkrai is a potential check to Exca, but due to Focus Blast having 7% accuracy, it's a shaky one at best. That's why, as you stated, Groudon is my primary check- which I did mention in the threat list. I won't rehash EKiller and Ho-Oh as they're already in my threat list and I mention how I handle them. Threats to the team yes, but manageable.

    Reshiram is definitely a threat I should have added (I'll do so later), as it does really hurt this team. My method of dealing with it is in keeping with the theme of team, sacrifice something in order to bring in a counter/check/crippler. It's not perfect, but no team is.

    Strangely enough, I did playtest both Ho-Oh and Forri in different slots on the team before coming to the final version (I probably should have added a team building section, sighhhhh). The problems I had were as follows: Forri can take limited special hits even with full investment and at the same time it's physical walling capabilities are severely compromised. Investing solely in Def means it can't tank special Dragon attacks as well as I would like. Spinning and Spikes are obviously massive pluses but even with Toxic I found RestTalk Giratina/-O common enough to render Rapid Spin a "nice to have" all too often and without a spinblocker on my team Spikes were scattered to easily. I love Forri, but not for this team. For these reasons I found Dialga to be the better option overall. Ho-Oh was easier to let go of than Forri. If for whatever reason I couldn't keep rocks off the field then 50% Ho-Bro really couldn't stomach the hits it was meant to. In short, adding Ho-Oh and Forri would mean changing the team to the point where it is unrecognizable. Good Pokemon, but not for this team.

    Stone Edge is a viable alternative on Groudon but I didn't want to sacrifice any defensive investment in favour of speed which would be required to hit Ho-Oh before it could Sub and start PP stalling. T-Wave is also crucial to this teams success. Groudons there to support; so while smashing Ho-Oh does helps, crippling ANY offensive switch-in lacking Lum Berry definitely helps more. Also, how often have you seen this: Groudon used Stone Edge! Groudons attack missed! If Stone Edge and Focus Blast had a baby it would be born squint...

    No, two SR setters is genius!!! Ok, maybe it's a bit ridiculous, but the reasoning is explained in some detail in Dialgas section of the RMT. I've played the team without dual SR setters but I feel it functions better as is. It's definitely not my standard practice but I feel it's worked really well on this team.

    I may not have changed anything (except the threat list which I'll update later) but thanks for the rate all the same!
  5. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    529
    This team lacks a reliable revenge killer and enough hazards to bring opposing scarfers down successfully. Since you play Scarf Darkrai as a suicide lead, late game you will not have a reliable way to beat some boosting Arceus forms such as Arceus-Ghost or opposing scarfers.

    If an enemy Arceus form gets a free switchin, be it on Palkia, Arceus, or Darkrai (assuming it is still alive), it is likely that the Arceus form will do significant damage to your team. Arceus-Fighting, while pseudo-countered by Shaymin-S, will almost surely get a kill if your opponent predicts right. Shaymin cannot safely switch in, and the rest of your team is crushed by Judgment. Likewise, Arceus-Ghost can freely boost to +1 and cripple your Dialga on the switch in with Focus Blast.

    Further, enemy scarfers will become increasingly more threatening as the game progresses especially if the enemy team has spikes, since you lack a spinner, spinblocker, and spikes of your own. Groudon and Dialga cannot wall scarfers forever (Terrakion, Genesect, Zekrom, Dialga) and Arceus-Normal will not be able to revenge them unless they are exceptionally low. If a team has something like Giratina or Ferrothorn + a scarfer, they can play around your team quite easily.

    To fix this issue, you need to rework the items or your core.
  6. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Hey Donkey.

    Actually Darkrai is played as a dedicated lead but not necessarily a suicide lead. If you re-read the section I wrote on it you'll notice there's a detailed explanation of how I play it.

    Surprisingly scarfers don't cause as many problems as you'd think. As the team name (and introductory paragraph, and every individual team members description...) will tell you, sacrificing the most viable member to bring in a wall safely allows me to deal with them pretty well. A paralyzed scarfer is pretty useless...

    Agreed Arceus formes can be dangerous with a free turn- but show me a team that isn't? I like to keep both walls at a healthy level until I know which forme the opposition is using. You can't plan a strategy if you don't know what you're supposed to be countering. Of course team preview helps a lot in deciphering which forme you're up against, but you can never be sure. I'm not sure what else to do about that with any team, but if you have a better suggestion than what I'm currently doing please let me know.

    Hmm. I feel you haven't understood from my RMT how I play this team. Apologies if I didn't make it clear. This team uses a lot of prediction and sacrifice to function properly and is adapted according to what I see in team preview. Giratina/-O, Ferrothorn and a scarfer is fairly common practice in Ubers so I can say confidently they can be played around with this team. If it would help I can post a couple of battles so you can see how I play it?

    Care to elaborate some? I tested scarf Palkia and Focus Sash Darkrai but that was during team building and I can tell you the team functioned much worse.

    Thanks for taking the time to rate. Your post didn't contain any specific suggestions but if you have any I'd be happy to hear and test them.


    *On another note, threatlist updated.

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