I think the Naive appeal LR really lies in that even with your 308 for Lucario, its after you Dragon Dance Adamant Choice Scarf Jirachi and Flygon can't revenge you, where as with Naughty they can unless you max speed to tie with them. The benchmark with Naive also beats Scarfed Roserade / P-Z / Lucario, as well as Scarf Rotom.
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Salamence [4N] - Mixed Dancer
- Thread starter iKitsune
- Start date
Well, the thing with Max speed is that those Attack EVs then are going to waste, and they are useful (see, Metagross, Tar, etc.) Max speed is actually a waste of EVs when you think about it... (why would you tie other Mence and Zapdos when you will be faster than them anyway after DD).
Oh I was referring to them before and after a Dance with the possibility of them being scarfed. Scarf Flygons and Jirachi's popularity was a really influential factor. I dont see the point in naive as you only outspeed the few positive 90s and 85s. Its more of a "possible but plausible option if needed" comment.
I'm beginning to think Naive is greatly inferior though because you wont really outspeed much more after a dragon dance.
.... Scarfed Flygon and Jirachi... they outspeed you and kill you after a DD...
If you max speed, you have a 50% chance to lose to them... its either you take that chance, or you just know you can't outspeed them and pump your attack for Metagross... thats the whole point. Maxing your speed is a waste of EVs on this particular set.
I agree with RaikouLover in that this Salamence set isn't particularly concerned about speed. You outspeed a lot of threats with one DD and the EVs allow you to KO a lot of things. The EVs really do matter for getting useful KOs whereas having a 50% chance of losing to Base 100 Scarfs would just be a waste of EVs here.
I still don't think the spread should be 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe.
I'd honestly would never drop below 363 Attack for the reasons I illustrated above.
Thinking on it more, I actually would probably run no less than 366 Attack (108 EVs). 366 Attack allows you to OHKO on average 364 HP / 299 Def (252 HP / 12 Def EVs) Metagross with a Dragon Danced Life Orb Earthquake, and always will OHKO if Stealth Rock is in play.
312 Special Attack (224 SpA EVs) is more than enough for Salamence's Draco Meteor. Draco Meteor is suppose to be used for things switching in to weaken them, much like "ChainChomp" worked, so it's not necessary to have a full-powered Draco Meteor. For example, 404 HP / 238 SpD (252 HP / 8 SpD) Celebi is always 2HKOed by a 312 SpA Life Orb Draco Meteor, including Stealth Rock and Leftovers. Given that, it's obvious things like Swampert (assuming it's not running Special Defense), Hippowdon and Gliscor will be 2HKOed (in Swampert's case Stealth Rock has to be down to nullify the first turn of Leftovers, otherwise it can survive the second Draco Meteor).
The only disappointing thing about dropping from 319 SpA to 312 SpA is the fact you miss the ability to 2HKO 448 HP / 226 SpD (188 HP / 0 SpD) Vaporeon with a Life Orb Draco Meteor (neither guarantees the 2HKO, just 319 SpA 2HKOes on average). Really though, 64% of Vaporeon's ran Protect last month so a simple Protect for an extra round of Leftovers recovery would prevent both of them from the 2HKO and if sandstream is up, then both 2HKO all the time anyway. Thus, I see no loss in the drop down. Neither 2HKOes Bold Milotic or Suicune anyway so "whatever" (although Draco + Outrage can, but then you mine as well use MixMence lol).
I strongly think the spread should be 108 Atk / 224 SpA / 176 Spe, Naughty.
The Special Attack is enough to accomplish mostly what you need to and the added attack actually lets it do a bit more with DD which is nice.
I'd honestly would never drop below 363 Attack for the reasons I illustrated above.
Thinking on it more, I actually would probably run no less than 366 Attack (108 EVs). 366 Attack allows you to OHKO on average 364 HP / 299 Def (252 HP / 12 Def EVs) Metagross with a Dragon Danced Life Orb Earthquake, and always will OHKO if Stealth Rock is in play.
312 Special Attack (224 SpA EVs) is more than enough for Salamence's Draco Meteor. Draco Meteor is suppose to be used for things switching in to weaken them, much like "ChainChomp" worked, so it's not necessary to have a full-powered Draco Meteor. For example, 404 HP / 238 SpD (252 HP / 8 SpD) Celebi is always 2HKOed by a 312 SpA Life Orb Draco Meteor, including Stealth Rock and Leftovers. Given that, it's obvious things like Swampert (assuming it's not running Special Defense), Hippowdon and Gliscor will be 2HKOed (in Swampert's case Stealth Rock has to be down to nullify the first turn of Leftovers, otherwise it can survive the second Draco Meteor).
The only disappointing thing about dropping from 319 SpA to 312 SpA is the fact you miss the ability to 2HKO 448 HP / 226 SpD (188 HP / 0 SpD) Vaporeon with a Life Orb Draco Meteor (neither guarantees the 2HKO, just 319 SpA 2HKOes on average). Really though, 64% of Vaporeon's ran Protect last month so a simple Protect for an extra round of Leftovers recovery would prevent both of them from the 2HKO and if sandstream is up, then both 2HKO all the time anyway. Thus, I see no loss in the drop down. Neither 2HKOes Bold Milotic or Suicune anyway so "whatever" (although Draco + Outrage can, but then you mine as well use MixMence lol).
I strongly think the spread should be 108 Atk / 224 SpA / 176 Spe, Naughty.
The Special Attack is enough to accomplish mostly what you need to and the added attack actually lets it do a bit more with DD which is nice.
Changed bit about Naive. I think i may add in this as an alternative spread Caelum it seems to work a bit better. Its similar enough as it it to warrant a comment but both sets can pretty much perform similar things with SR down from what i can see so I dont think its really worth mentioning unless you adamantly believe it is.
moved the bit about magnezone in-set to the team options comments and mentioned heatran in the set commentsAfter some help from LR i am ready to present i revised version of this Salamence set.
[SET]
name: Mixed Dancer
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Earthquake / Fire Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Naughty / Naive
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set aims to take full advantage of Salamence's unpredictability and superb mixed base attacking stats. It seeks to lure in physically defensive Pokémon that would be called upon to counter a standard Dragon Dancer, such as Hippowdon and Swampert, and slam them with a surprise special attack, freeing Salamence to use Outrage on a more susceptible target. Furthermore, this set aims to rectify the common problems that halt a Salamence sweep, be it MixMence's relative incapability of damaging special walls without predicting a switch in, or the Dragon Dancer's difficulty with taking on more physically defensive Pokémon.</p>
<p>The most effective tactic when using this set is to Dragon Dance off the bat, boosting the power of Outrage and allowing you to outspeed normally faster threats. From this point, one should choose the appropriate move depending on the opponent's reaction to Salamence. Draco Meteor will do huge amounts of damage to various physical walls, and having seen Dragon Dance, the likes of Gyarados, Hippowdon, and Swampert will be taken completely by surprise from your strong special attack. Blissey is highly unlikely to switch into a Salamence with a Dragon Dance under its belt, so your special attack should hit its mark, enabling you to use Outrage freely once the initial counter is removed. One of the best advantages of this set is that Salamence will not be forced to Outrage immediately after having Danced up, meaning the common strategy of letting it "Outrage into a Steel" is rendered ineffective.</p>
<p>The last slot is dedicated to a coverage move to help out against the Steel-types that resist Salamence's Dragon attacks. While Fire Blast may seem like the superior choice here at an initial glance, Earthquake will generally provide Salamence with stronger and more consistent damage. The majority of the time, Salamence will find itself having Dragon Danced and Draco Meteored once already when it comes face to face with an opposing Steel-type, meaning attacking from a +1 Attack stat as compared to a -2 Special Attack stat is far more effective, not to mention that it gives Salamence a way of dealing with Heatran. However, this does leave Salamence with the problem of not being able to hit Skarmory and Bronzong for neutral damage.</p>
<p>Running a positive Attack nature will ensure you make the most of Salamence's naturally high Attack stat, and allows it to sweep very easily with Outrage after a Dragon Dance. Max Special Attack with a neutral nature guarantees OHKOs on max HP Zapdos and min HP Gyarados after Stealth Rock damage. 176 Speed EVs hit 280 Speed, allowing Salamence to serve as a reliable check against Adamant Lucario and non-Scarfed Heatran before using Dragon Dance, while also allowing it to outspeed Scarfed versions of said Heatran and everything slower after boosting its own Speed. A Naive nature can be run on this set if you so wish; you will lose power on Outrage but will be able to Speed tie with 90 base Speed Pokémon and outspeed Timid Scarf Rotom-h after a Dragon Dance. Notably, even with Naive, Salamence's Outrage will still be able to OHKO the standard 148/252 Calm Blissey with Stealth Rock support.</p>
<p>Pairing this set up with a Magnezone is highly recommended, as it can singlehandedly remove Skarmory and Bronzong from the game and give Salamence a clear path to sweep. If you are opposed to using Magnezone, Fire Blast can be used for its ability to hit Celebi notably harder without the need to Outrage; however it is unreliable and will leave you helpless against Heatran. Magnezone also serves as an efficient answer to Scizor, in particular Choice Band versions that try to revenge kill Salamence with Bullet Punch. Lucario pairs up well with this set as well, since it can beat both Skarmory and Bronzong with a boosted Close Combat, and also packs a resistance to Bullet Punch (albeit taking quite a bit of damage from Choice Band Scizor). A Scarf Dugtrio can be employed to beat the majority of Heatran sets, which will allow comfortabe use of Fire Blast in the fourth move slot.</p>
<p>Here are some damage calculations to demonstrate the strength with which this set can hit from both sides of the spectrum (assuming a Naughty nature).</p>
<h3>Damage Calculations</h3>
<pre>
Draco Meteor vs. max HP / min SpD Hippowdon: 82.9 - 97.4%
Draco Meteor vs. max HP / min SpD Zapdos: 75.0 - 88.5% (OHKO with Stealth Rock)
Draco Meteor vs. min HP / SpD Gyarados: 79.8 - 94.3% (OHKO with Stealth Rock)
+1 Outrage vs. 148 HP / max Def Blissey: 100%
+1 Earthquake vs. max HP / min Def Metagross: 93.4 - 100% (92.3% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock)
+1 Earthquake vs. max HP / min Def Tyranitar: 97.0 - 100% (OHKO with Stealth Rock)
</pre>
are those calcs really necessary to include? *just wondering* (just c/p it into your post btw) p.s. i changed the bit about mence koing calm bliss with naïve because at first, due to the spdef mentions, i thought you meant w/ draco meteor ?_? if it has to be +1 outrage or w/e, please specify that.
