Salamence (BW2 Revamp) (GP 2/2)

[Pocket]

Raikoulover, since this analysis is already finalized and revised, feel free to post those Salamence set entries separately from this overall revamp.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

For Bulky DD, the way I see it, if you're prepared for Dragonite (which you are, playing with a team unprepared for Dragonite is foolish), you're most certainly prepared for Bulky DDMence. I can't really see why Bulky Dragon Dance should get a set when the standard DDNite is perfectly bulky, without sacrificing so much offensive presence. Basically, if you're going to use Bulky DDMence, just use DDNite.

FatMence is in a similar boat; Dragonite can run an almost identical set, except with Thunder Wave and without Wish. Also, you cannot simply say that the pink blobs "suck" in an offensive metagame; they are still excellent at checking Special threats that don't have Psyshock or aren't Keldeo. Anyway, even then, Dragonite is still quite a bit bulkier than Salamence, to say the least. I don't really know if access to Wish justifies its use, especially when you have better Wish users like Chansey to use.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Of all the other moves MixMence can use, the two most notable are Roost and Brick Break. Roost allows it to recover from Life Orb recoil, although there are very few cases where Salamence can successfully use Roost. Brick Break hits Blissey and Chansey without resorting to Outrage, but without significant Attack investment and Stealth Rock, its low 75 Base Power doesn't even cut it against targets like such as Tyranitar.</p>

Additional paragraph checked Yes

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Alright awesome, so I guess this is ready for upload now?

 

[Super Mario Bro]

For Bulky DD, the way I see it, if you're prepared for Dragonite (which you are, playing with a team unprepared for Dragonite is foolish), you're most certainly prepared for Bulky DDMence. I can't really see why Bulky Dragon Dance should get a set when the standard DDNite is perfectly bulky, without sacrificing so much offensive presence. Basically, if you're going to use Bulky DDMence, just use DDNite.

FatMence is in a similar boat; Dragonite can run an almost identical set, except with Thunder Wave and without Wish. Also, you cannot simply say that the pink blobs "suck" in an offensive metagame; they are still excellent at checking Special threats that don't have Psyshock or aren't Keldeo. Anyway, even then, Dragonite is still quite a bit bulkier than Salamence, to say the least. I don't really know if access to Wish justifies its use, especially when you have better Wish users like Chansey to use.

The argument RL is making is that there is no Wishpasser in OU that unquestionably outclasses Salamence. Dragonite can't counter fighting types like Lucario, doesn't have Intimidate, and doesn't learn Wish. The blobs are set up fodder for nearly everything physical out there (and some special sweepers like Reuniclus and Keldeo), and can't pHaze.

 

[Ernesto]

Hold it. I may be mistaken, but such as really shouldn't be used if you're only giving one example. If you don't like like, even in this scenario, I'd suggest you rephrase th line to something like "its low 75 Base Power doesn't cut it – it can't even get the KO on Tyranitar". I know that the argument between using 'such as' and 'like' is a very old one, but 'like' really is the better option when you're only giving one example...

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

The argument RL is making is that there is no Wishpasser in OU that unquestionably outclasses Salamence. Dragonite can't counter fighting types like Lucario, doesn't have Intimidate, and doesn't learn Wish. The blobs are set up fodder for nearly everything physical out there (and some special sweepers like Reuniclus and Keldeo), and can't pHaze.

Actually there kind of is; its name is Latias. And guess what? Latias's Wish set isn't on-site either. Latias doesn't have a 4x weakness to Ice, can actually check Terrakion (really big fucking deal), still checks Breloom, and also has enough Special bulk to also check Pokemon like Keldeo and Rotom-W. Hell, I'm pretty sure a properly EV'd Latias can take on Thundurus-T. Try that with your FatMence. Latias also isn't SR weak. Sure, Latias is Pursuit weak, but it's not like FatMence is doing any better against Tyranitar, so that point is moot in my opinion. Even Vaporeon is better than FatMence (you really want to have high base HP when Wish passing) and still synergizes well with Forretress. Now, I'm not saying "go use Vaporeon", I'm just saying it's better than FatMence.

Either way, QC seems set on not giving FatMence an analysis. Besides, it is in Other Options, so it's still getting some kind of mention in this analysis. If Latias didn't get a Wish set in its revamp, I don't see why Salamence should.

Hold it. I may be mistaken, but such as really shouldn't be used if you're only giving one example. If you don't like like, even in this scenario, I'd suggest you rephrase th line to something like "its low 75 Base Power doesn't cut it – it can't even get the KO on Tyranitar". I know that the argument between using 'such as' and 'like' is a very old one, but 'like' really is the better option when you're only giving one example...

I was pretty sure "like" was the correct option, but at the time I wasn't really in the mood for questioning the GP team and wanted this to get on site. I'll go ahead and change it back.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Actually there kind of is; its name is Latias. And guess what? Latias's Wish set isn't on-site either.

Latias doesn't outclass Salamence in the least when it comes to Wish passing. She is just different.

can actually check Terrakion (really big fucking deal)

Not really. She loses to Double Dance, and can't switch into Choiced Stone Edge. She can eat Choiced Close Combats, but Salamence can do that too.

and also has enough Special bulk to also check Pokemon like Keldeo and Rotom-W. Hell, I'm pretty sure a properly EV'd Latias can take on Thundurus-T. Try that with your FatMence. Latias also isn't SR weak.

You're just cherry-picking circumstances where Latias does something that Salamence doesn't. What matters is how the Pokemon function as a whole as Wish passers. Latias isn't good at Wish because she has to constantly fear Pursuit and suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome. If she runs Reflect, she can't pHaze, but if she runs Roar, she is extremely vulnerable to Scizor and Tyranitar. Salamence can run a pHazing move and doesn't have to fear either of those guys.

Sure, Latias is Pursuit weak, but it's not like FatMence is doing any better against Tyranitar, so that point is moot in my opinion.

It still counters Scizor, who slaughters Latias. Even if it can't hit Tar that hard, it doesn't really have to worry about switching out.

Even Vaporeon is better than FatMence (you really want to have high base HP when Wish passing) and still synergizes well with Forretress. Now, I'm not saying "go use Vaporeon", I'm just saying it's better than FatMence.

"Better" and "worse" mean nothing without context. Vaporeon checks certain things better, but so does Mence. Ferrothorn sets up all over Vaporeon, but gets roasted by Mence's Fire Blast. Lucario shits all over Vaporeon with +2 Close Combat, but he can't even outspeed Mence. Vaporeon doesn't have Intimidate, Salamence does.

 

[PK Gaming]

Alright i'm going to put my foot down here on this whole situation.

LucaroarkZ will not be writing the Fatmence analysis, and I don't want to see any more posts about it from this point on. That said, I will allow someone (anyone, preferably RaikouLover or Super Mario Bro) to create a Fatmence analysis to submit to QC.

 

[Organization Member XIV]

This is a great analysis. Does GP/QC have an idea if when this will be uploaded, or will the Fatmence analysis have to be completed first?

 

[Iconic]

ok the fatmence thing seems to be resolved, so i will upload this

nice job LucaroarkZ