Salamence (FatMence)

[shrang]

Always thought Mence is fine enough as a self sustaining unit as he is, not just the crappy little brother of Rayquaza. Here's something Rayquaza can NEVER do, anyway:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence


[SET]
name: FatMence
move 1: Roost
move 2: Wish / Roar
move 3: Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
item: Leftovers
ability: Intimidate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Something Rayquaza can't do
- Only Uber with Intimidate, allowing it to check quite a few physical threats, like SD Scizor, SD Lucario, SD Rayquaza. Salamence can then proceed to kill them all with the right attack.
- It also lets you Intimidate RP Groudon and then switch to your counter so it isn't as scary any more.
- Can be a decent physically defensive Wish passer (Latias/Blissey has problems on the physical side), or you can use Roar as well.
- Oh yeah, and unlike Lugia, this Salamence is not totally useless in the offensive department. Wish also allows it to hold a different niche from Lugia as well

Damage calculations:
+1 Adamant LO Rayquaza's Extremespeed vs Salamence: 63.45% - 74.87% (Will never OHKO after Stealth Rock)
+1 Adamant LO Lucario's Extremespeed vs Salamence: 50.76% - 59.90%
+1 Adamant LO Scizor's Bullet Punch vs Salamence: 63.96% - 75.38% (Will never OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers)
-1 Adamant LO Groudon's Dragon Claw vs Salamence: 56.85% - 67.01%
-1 Adamant LO Ho-oh's Brave Bird vs Salamence: 56.60% - 67.01%

- At worst, Salamence can take a hit from these threats and Roar them out and Roost off the damage

Additional comments:
- Alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe Timid is available if speed-tying Palkia, Salamence and Manaphy isn't that important for your team
- Using all physical with Outrage / Earthquake and a Jolly nature is fine too, but using all special lets Salamence check Scizor better (With Flamethrower OHKOing). Being able to switch into Sacred Fire without having main attack cut in half is good too.
- Toxic can be used over Wish / Roar to cripple Lugia and Groudon with. Works well in conjuntion with Roost.

Teammates and Counters:
- Rapid Spinners are good to keep Salamence healthy
- Steels generally are good partners. Jirachi is especially good since it resists all of Salamence's weakness and Salamence resists all of Jirachi's weaknesses and can pass Wishes to each other. Scizor is good for Lati@s checking.
- Special attackers aren't affected much by physically defensive Salamence. Kyogre takes Draco Meteors like nothing and destroys Salamence. Heatran resists/immune to both of Mence's attacks
- Stealth Rock makes Salamence annoyed.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Usual bulky Mence.....would be quite viable in Ubers as a support unit.

Even Zone can be a good partner, having good synergy to take Ice attacks in its face....as you say, any Steel type works.

 

[calze6]

Heatran also synergises well. Consider a physical movepool to take on bliss, which counters it. Protect deserves a mention too.

 

[trickroom]

Being weak to the incredibly powerful dragon attacks, Mence isnt walling much. Ice attacks like ice beam kills it. Yes it can wall what you stated but doesnt Lugia does the exact same thing but can survive all the attacks better, plus reflect. Dragon dance Rayquaza and another Mence will screw this Salamence up. Mixed Dialga and Lati@s will happilt switched in and kill this Salamence. Salamence can attack but its rather average special attack stat by uber standards isnt great either and most ubers have high special defense. Even Giratina gives this Salamence stiff competition, walling all the above threats better,barr Rayquaza and burn things.

 

[Gouki]

i'm sorry but i can't imagine ever considering this for a team. i'm not even sure what strategy it plays a part in based on what it actually accomplishes. nearly everything in ubers beats this straight up, nevermind actually switching in. even the things you listed it beating can KO you with practically any prior damage + stealth rock, and your move will be almost forced regardless. it's not even doing enough damage to KO lucario with fire blast outside of the sun, and is nearly useless against it if it's raining. it can roost against ho-oh but will eventually give it a free sub and face a 50% burn chance.

i could go in depth on what it does offensively or post a bunch of calcs, but i think this one says it all:

draco meteor vs 4/0/0 neutral natured soul dew latias: 58.3% - 69.5%

when latias is free to switch in on salamence's strongest attack you can be sure its offensive aspect is mostly a novelty. this leaves it with intimidate coupled with a stealth rock weakness limiting how freely you can use it, and wish—which blissey, jirachi, and latias may or may not pull off better anyway... just not enough to be a viable set in my opinion.

i don't mean to be disrespectful, but have you actually used this? if so i'm curious to find out what it usually did for you.

 

[shrang]

I did on PO, I guess, since shoddy's been offline at the moment, so maybe I just haven't faced good opponents with it. It Intimidated and Roared out an SD Normal Farceus, which was pretty cool, but apart from that, it hasn't been too productive. I tested it a bit with Fireburn and bojangles' QuickStall team to patch up the Ho-oh weakness slightly, and it's been holding up (maybe not excellently) okay. It's played its part in the team well enough at the moment.

 

[giggity69]

I could see this being useful ONLY because of intimidate. It really isn't going to stall anything out like lugia or blissey, and it certainly isn't going to really hurt much, but having a safety net in intimidate against groudon and rayquaza could be nice to have. I do not think this needs its own analysis, but maybe a mention in the OC or something

 

[firecape]

I'm sorry I just don't see why I would ever use this. Latias outclasses this set in every single aspect but one (I will get to that later) thanks to Soul Dew, better Speed, and lack of weakness to Stealth Rock. Before you go into "Flamethrower", thanks to Soul Dew, Latias's Hidden Power Fire is more powerful than Salamence's Flamethrower. Fire Blast has a little more power, but honestly, I think the 1.5x Special Defense boost (as well as a 1.5x more powerful Dragon Pulse/ Draco Meteor) more than makes up for that; not to mention 85% accuracy likes to miss when you need it. Latias also has the ability to coutner and/or check a lot more things, such as Kyogre. The one advantage Salamence has over Latias is Intimidate. Against Garchomp, this hardly matters as -1 Scarf Outrage still OHKOs Salamence after Stealth Rock, and Latias could have taken any of the other attacks it has. For Rayquaza, you do a maximum of 77.5% to it with the EV spread mentioned with Dragon Pulse. This means if you wish to "counter" it, you are left with a -2 SpA Mence with no investment in either of its attacking stats and around 10%... You may fare a little better against Groudon, but you're taking a ton of damage from really every attack it commonly carries besides Earthquake. Stone Edge an Dragon Claw maim Salamence where as Thunder Wave makes it practically useless as it can no longer Roost against Stone Edge. Unless you can provide some logs to convince me otherwise, I'm rejecting this for now.

QC Rejected 1/3

 

[Theorymon]

Im going to be in the same boat as firecape, unless I see some good logs Im going to be rejecting this as well.

QC Rejected 2/3

 

[Fireburn]

Agree with firecape.

QC REJECTION: 3/3