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Salamence [full revamp] Stage 1 [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by kd24, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    controversy: we decided that 252 spe would be main spread for analysis, this is 1.) for newer players to expect max speed so they make sure they can efficiently counter and 2.) it has merits just like bulky does. i realize not everyone will be happy with this decision, but i think its definitely the best one.

    [Overview]

    <p>Salamence is one of the best sweepers in the current metagame. Its ability, Intimidate, coupled with resistances to Fighting and Bug, makes it a good switch-in to popular Pokemon such as Heracross, and its immunity to Ground-type attacks allows it to switch in on Earthquake. Nothing cleans up weakened teams as nicely as the Dragon Dance set does, and nothing switches in easily on the Choice Band set. If you expect one variant and it turns out to be another, chances are you will be in a world of pain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Rock Slide / Fire Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This might be one of the best sweepers in the game, able to set up a Dragon Dance and sweep at any moment. There are two different ways to play this set: bring it in early to throw out powerful attacks to scout for bulky Water-types, or save it for late-game, waiting for the bulky Water-types of the opponent to be weakened. No matter how you play it, Salamence is always going to be a threat with Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Rock Slide is the preferred option in the last slot, as it is Salamence's best attack against Zapdos and can take out opposing Salamence and Gyarados. Fire Blast is a good second option, however, denting Skarmory and Forretress extremely hard. If you opt for Rock Slide, make sure you have an answer to Skarmory with Magneton or some other lure, as Skarmory will consistently ruin your day.</p>

    <p>The basic EV spread is used to at worst Speed tie other neutral-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon. While uncommon, it also outspeeds Jolly Heracross and is generally a safe Speed to hit. A bulkier spread is just as good, being able to survive more Ice Beams and tank hits from Heracross better. If you choose to use a bulkier version of Dragon Dance Salamence, use 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe to outspeed Adamant Heracross and Modest Suicune before a Dragon Dance.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Hidden Power Flying
    move 2: Rock Slide
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Brick Break / Fire Blast
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The closest thing to a 100% counter to this set is Ice Beam Suicune. Standard counters, such as Weezing, Milotic, Swampert, and Claydol, will not be able to withstand the Choice Band-boosted assault nearly as well, and will be 3HKOed in most cases. Again, the fourth moveslot is a toss-up; each of the moves has its obvious merits. Brick Break does huge damage to Tyranitar and helps a lot against Curse Snorlax. Fire Blast, however, can 2HKO Skarmory and can OHKO some Forretress.</p>

    <p>Adamant is the preferred nature for Choice Band Salamence, but a Jolly nature can be used to beat out other Salamence, Zapdos, and the myriad Pokemon that commonly run about 300 Speed. As for EVs, Salamence needs maximum Attack, no questions asked. The Speed investment, however, is up to preference. When in doubt, maximize it for a stat of 299, but 270 or 286 are fine numbers to hit as well. Any leftover EVs can go into HP.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Wish
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Salamence makes an excellent defensive Pokemon when backed by Intimidate. Wish gives it semi-reliable recovery, and Salamence can use the sheer power of its former sets to its advantage here. Because Swampert and Milotic are such common switch-ins, Toxic can neuter them enough so that they won't be able to check other threats. Protect allows Wish to heal Salamence more easily, and also lets it stall with Toxic. Flamethrower nails Skarmory and Forretress, both of which might try to set up on you.</p>

    <p>When coupled with Intimidate, max HP and Defense EVs allow Salamence to take on almost any physical attacker and stall it out with Toxic. An alternative set with an Adamant nature can be useful to keep Tyranitar and Metagross in check while threatening Snorlax and Celebi. Earthquake and Hidden Power Flying should be used over Toxic and Flamethrower.</p>

    [SET]
    name: MixMence
    move 1: Hidden Power Grass
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Rash
    evs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The mixed nature of this Salamence lets it break walls, especially Swampert. The strategy for removing Swampert is simple: lure it in and let the Hidden Power Grass rip. Salamence's Special Attack is actually the fifth highest among OU Pokemon, so Fire Blast can make short work of Skarmory and Forretress, while making a big dent in Jirachi, Metagross, and Celebi. With 24 Attack EVs, Brick Break will always 2HKO Blissey in sand with Spikes, meaning that not even Blissey can safely come in. Snorlax and Tyranitar both need to avoid it as well. The last slot can be Dragon Claw or Rock Slide; the former counters Flygon and other Salamence, while the latter is Salamence's strongest attack against Zapdos and Aerodactyl. Dragon Claw is a decent STAB attack though, and can be more easily spammed by Salamence.</p>

    <p>MixMence should use a Rash nature, as Ice-type attacks will KO it regardless; STAB Thunderbolts similarly 2HKO. The Defense drop from a Mild nature allows the likes of Heracross's Megahorn to 2HKO after Intimidate, which is unwanted. Maximum Speed allows it to tie with other Salamence, which can be key when using Dragon Claw. It also gets the jump on all variants of Suicune and Heracross.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Roar is effective if your opponent's Dragon Dance counter is a phazer such as Skarmory or Suicune; use Dragon Dance as they switch in and Roar them away before they can do the same in return.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Milotic, Swampert, and Suicune all wreck Salamence's sweep with Toxic or Ice Beam, while Salamence cannot possibly OHKO them. Claydol and Weezing are immune to Earthquake and don't fall to Salamence's other moves too quickly either. Regice isn't too reliable as a Salamence counter, as it's weak to Brick Break and Rock Slide, but it can work in a pinch. Most other checks must play a guessing game. Zapdos and Aerodactyl can trouble Salamence that lack Rock Slide, while Skarmory is hard to defeat outside of a Fire-type move. Rock- and Steel-types, such as Tyranitar and Metagross, can also switch in easily on most of Choice Band Salamence's moves. Finally, despite Salamence's good defensive typing, it has several crippling weaknesses. Most outstanding of these are Ice-type moves; examples include Zapdos's Hidden Power Ice, Gengar's Ice Punch, and Ice Beam from bulky Water-types.</p>
  2. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    It seems weird that you mentioned Hydro Pump messes up Claydol in the Counters section but didn't mention the move once in the sets or even Other Options.
  3. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    ya thanks, removed, was remnant of the old analysis
  4. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Bulky DDmence is so much better than fast DDmence
  5. CyberOdin

    CyberOdin

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    ( ivs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpDef/ 31 SpD ) I think you wanted to put something like this.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    For Pokemon like MixMence which thrives in using the right moves against the right mon, readers need to know how much each damage does to particular threats - a list of damage calcs will come in handy here.

    <ul="damage_calculation">
    <li>24 Atk Salamence <strong>Rock Slide</strong> vs. 252 HP / 32 Def <strong>Zapdos: 41 – 49%</strong> -- Guaranteed 3HKO</li>
    <li>24 Atk Salamence <strong>Rock Slide</strong> vs. 68 HP / 0 Def <strong>Gyarados: 50– 59%</strong> -- Guaranteed 2HKO with sand damage</li>
    <li>24 Atk Salamence <strong>Brick Break</strong> vs. 104 HP / 148 Def <strong>Snorlax: 34 – 40%</strong> -- Guaranteed 3HKO with 1 layer of Spikes or sand damage</li>
    <li>24 Atk Salamence <strong>Brick Break</strong> vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def <strong>Blissey: 40 – 47%</strong> -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and sand damage</li>
    <li>24 Atk Salamence <strong>Brick Break</strong> vs. 16 HP / 120 Def <strong>Tyranitar: 70 – 82%</strong> -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes</li>
    <li>24 Atk Salamence <strong>Brick Break</strong> vs. 252 HP / 112 Def <strong>Regice: 36 – 42%</strong> -- Guaranteed 3HKO with 1 layer of Spikes or sand damage</li>
    <li>232+ SpA Salamence <strong>Fire Blast</strong> vs. 252 HP / 60+ SpD <strong>Regice: 34 – 39%</strong> -- Guaranteed 3HKO with 1 layer of Spikes or sand damage</li>
    <li>232+ SpA Salamence <strong>Hidden Power Grass</strong> vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD <strong>Swampert: 80 – 95%</strong> -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes</li>
    <li>232+ SpA Salamence <strong>Hidden Power Grass</strong> vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD <strong>Milotic: 31 – 37%</strong> -- Guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and sand damage</li>
    <li>232+ SpA Salamence <strong>Hidden Power Grass</strong> vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD<strong> Suicune: 33 – 39%</strong> -- Guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes or sand damage</li>
    <li>232+ SpA Salamence <strong>Dragon Claw</strong> vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD <strong> Salamene: 92 – 108%</strong> -- 50% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>232+ SpA Salamence <strong>Dragon Claw</strong> vs. 188 HP / 0- SpD <strong> Flygon: 98 – 114%</strong> -- 93.75% chance to OHKO</li>
    </ul>

    Simply copy and paste this, and people will have a good reference to fall back on when using MixMence

    Also dont forget to add the row of ivs for hp grass: 30 Def / 30 SpA iirc
  7. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 128 HP / 240 Atk / 140 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

    on DDMence is usually better than max/max imo.
    Basically this spreads let you achieve the following:
    - Reach 270 in speed (outspeed Heracross/Modest Cune and everything lower).
    - Always survives Swampert Ice Beam, even after sand damage.
    - Always survives Suicune Ice Beam (without Sp.Atk invest).
    - Gives you some chances to survive Milotic Ice Beam.

    At +1 speed, nothing is faster than you ofc. I'd say that's an even better spread for "newer" players.
  8. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    80 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def / 20 SDef / 140 Spd does what McMeghan's spread does (survive Ice Beams from defensively-oriented waters) with more efficiency on both sides of the spectrum. For what it's worth I think it's much better than max/max
  9. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    Hmmm, I'm using MDragon's ADV calc and here is what I got:

    Resultado: 80% - 94% (282 - 332).

    That's Ice Beam coming off Swampert. Your spread gives you 351 total HP, which means you have the possibility to die from max damage + sand damage (21 HP).
  10. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Unless the HP stat is higher than the Defense and Special Defense stats combined, it's always better to put all evs in HP rather than split some between Defense and Special Defense. I'm pretty sure McMeghan's spread will take hits better from both the physical and special side.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I think #adv had a talk about this and decided that surviving an unSTAB Ice Beam from Swampert isn't really worth the speed drop. Milotic has a 50-50 chance to OHKO Salamence at full-health, while Suicune can very well be an offensive variant.

    kd24, can you add a quick mention that the alternative DD spread can survive an unSTAB Ice Beam from Swampert?
  12. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Yes, McMeghan set is the best DDmence set
  13. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    Yeah I've always thought, along with M Dragon, Malfoy, and it seems McMeghan too, that DD Salamence needs the bulk. I really like the first one that McMeghan listed. Surviving Ice Beams isn't even the chief reason for using a Bulky DD Mence; just giving Mence more chances to switch in, deal damage to its checks, and sweep are all the main reasons I use it. Surviving Ice Beam sometimes is obviously a huge bonus too. The arguments for the max/max spread were Timid Cune which no one uses, Jolly Heracross which is very uncommon although I know Dekzeh, CBB, and I use it, and getting a speed tie with other Mence. I really don't see a strong argument for using max/max DD Mence.
  14. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    the <strong></strong> tags aren't really needed in the calcs; I would remove them.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    It may not be necessary, but it certainly helps to differentiate the moves and mons, imo.

    I agree with everyone about bulky DD spread - yesterday two Salamence survived Swampert's Ice Beam, allowing them to clean house. Wasn't a pleasant experience
  16. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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    [Overview]

    <p>Salamence is one of the best sweepers in the current metagame. Its Intimidate ability, Intimidate, coupled with resistances to Fighting and Bug, makes it a good switch-in to popular Pokemon such as Heracross, and its immunity to Ground-type attacks allows it to switch in on Earthquake. Nothing cleans up weakened teams as nicely as the Dragon Dance set does, and nothing switches in easily on the Choice Band set user. If you expect one variant and it turns out to be another, chances are, you will be in a world of pain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Rock Slide / Fire Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This might be one of the best sweepers in the game, able to set up a Dragon Dance and sweep at any moment. There are two different ways to play this set: bringing it in early to throw out powerful attacks, scouting for bulky Water-types, and or save it for the late-game, waiting for the bulky Water-types of the opponent to be weakened. No matter which way you play it, Salamence is always going to be a threat with Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Rock Slide is the preferred option, being Salamence's best attack against Zapdos, and can take out opposing Salamence and Gyarados. Fire Blast is a good second option, however, denting Skarmory and Forretress extremely hard. If you opt for Rock Slide, make sure you have an answer to Skarmory with Magneton or some other lure, as Skarmory will consistently ruin your day.</p>

    <p>The basic EV spread is used for the purpose of being able to at the minimum Speed tie other neutral-natured base 100s. While uncommon, it also outspeeds Jolly Heracross and is generally a safe Speed to hit. A bulkier spread is just as good, being able to survive more Ice Beams and tank hits from Heracross better. If you choose to use a bulkier version of Dragon Dance Salamence, use 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe to outspeed Adamant Heracross and Modest Suicune before a Dragon Dance.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Hidden Power Flying
    move 2: Rock Slide
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Brick Break / Fire Blast
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The closest thing to a 100% counter to this set is Ice Beam Suicune. Standard counters, such as Weezing, Milotic, Swampert, (AC) and Claydol, will not be able to withstand the Choice Band-boosted assault nearly as well, and will be 3HKOed in most cases. Again, the fourth moveslot is a toss-up; each of the moves has its obvious merits. Brick Break does huge damage to Tyranitar and helps a lot against Curse Snorlax. Fire Blast, however, can 2HKO Skarmory and can OHKO some Forretress.</p>

    <p>Adamant is the preferred nature for Choice Band Salamence, but a Jolly nature can be used to beat out other Salamence, Zapdos, and the myriad Pokemon that commonly run about 300 Speed. As for EVs, it should run Salamence needs maximum Attack, no questions asked. The Speed investment, however, is up to preference. When in doubt, maximize it—and use a 31 Speed IV—for a stat of 299, but 270 or 286 are fine numbers to hit as well. Any leftover EVs can go into HP.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Wish
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Salamence makes an excellent defensive Pokemon when backed by Intimidate. Wish gives it a semi-reliable recovery, and Salamence can use the sheer power of its former sets to its advantage here. Because Swampert and Milotic are such common switch-ins, Toxic can neuter them enough that they won't be able to perform their roles in checking other threats. Protect allows Wish to heal Salamence more easily, and also lets it stall with Toxic. Flamethrower nails Skarmory and Forretress, both of which might try to set up on you.</p>

    <p>Max HP and Defense when coupled with Intimidate allows Salamence to take on almost any physical attacker and stall them it out with Toxic. An alternative WishMence set with an Adamant nature can be useful for keeping Tyranitar and Metagross in check, (RC) while threatening Snorlax and Celebi. Earthquake and Hidden Power Flying should be used over Toxic and Flamethrower.</p>

    [SET]
    name: MixMence
    move 1: Hidden Power Grass
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Rash
    evs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The mixed nature of this Salamence lets it break walls, especially Swampert. The strategy for removing Swampert is simple: lure it in and let the Hidden Power Grass rip. Salamence's Special Attack is actually the 5th highest among OU Pokemon, and so Fire Blast can make short work of Skarmory and Forretress, while denting Jirachi, Metagross, and Celebi pretty hard. With 24 Attack EVs, Brick Break will always 2HKO Blissey in sand with Spikes, meaning that not even Blissey can safely come in. Snorlax and Tyranitar both need to avoid it as well. The last slot can be Dragon Claw or Rock Slide; the former of which will counter Flygon and other Salamence, while the latter is Salamence's strongest attack against Zapdos and Aerodactyl. Dragon Claw is a decent STAB attack though, and can be more easily spammed by Salamence.</p>

    <p>MixMence should use a Rash nature, (AC) as Ice attacks will KO it regardless; and STAB Thunderbolts similarly 2HKO. The Defense drop from a Mild nature allows the likes of Heracross's Megahorn to 2HKO after Intimidate, which is unwanted. Maximum Speed ties with other Salamence, (AC) which can be key when using Dragon Claw. It also gets the jump on all variants of Suicune and Heracross.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Roar is effective if your opponent's Dragon Dance counter is a phazer such as Skarmory or Suicune; use Dragon Dance as they switch in, (RC) and then Roar them away before they can do the same in return.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Milotic, Swampert, and Suicune all wreck Salamence's sweep with Toxic or Ice Beam; Salamence cannot possibly OHKO them. Claydol and Weezing are immune to Earthquake and don't fall to Salamence's other moves too quickly either. Regice isn't too reliable as a Salamence counter, (AC) as it's weak to Brick Break and Rock Slide, but it can work in a pinch.</p>

    <p>
    Most other checks must play a guessing game. Zapdos and Aerodactyl can trouble Salamence that lack Rock Slide, while Skarmory is hard to defeat outside of a Fire-type move. Rock- and Steel-types, such as Tyranitar and Metagross, can also switch in easily on Choice Band Salamence.</p>

    <p>
    Finally, despite Salamence's good defensive typing, it has several crippling weaknesses. Most outstanding of these are Ice-type moves attacks; examples include Zapdos's Hidden Power Ice, Gengar's Ice Punch, as well as and Ice Beam from bulky Water-types.</p>

    C/P (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>Salamence is one of the best sweepers in the current metagame. Its ability, Intimidate, coupled with resistances to Fighting and Bug, makes it a good switch-in to popular Pokemon such as Heracross, and its immunity to Ground-type attacks allows it to switch in on Earthquake. Nothing cleans up weakened teams as nicely as the Dragon Dance set does, and nothing switches in easily on the Choice Band set. If you expect one variant and it turns out to be another, chances are, you will be in a world of pain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Rock Slide / Fire Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This might be one of the best sweepers in the game, able to set up a Dragon Dance and sweep at any moment. There are two different ways to play this set: bring it in early to throw out powerful attacks, scouting for bulky Water-types, or save it for the late-game, waiting for the bulky Water-types of the opponent to be weakened. No matter which way you play it, Salamence is always going to be a threat with Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Rock Slide is the preferred option, being Salamence's best attack against Zapdos, and can take out opposing Salamence and Gyarados. Fire Blast is a good second option, however, denting Skarmory and Forretress extremely hard. If you opt for Rock Slide, make sure you have an answer to Skarmory with Magneton or some other lure, as Skarmory will consistently ruin your day.</p>

    <p>The basic EV spread is used for the purpose of being able to at minimum Speed tie other neutral-natured base 100s. While uncommon, it also outspeeds Jolly Heracross and is generally a safe Speed to hit. A bulkier spread is just as good, being able to survive more Ice Beams and tank hits from Heracross better. If you choose to use a bulkier version of Dragon Dance Salamence, use 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe to outspeed Adamant Heracross and Modest Suicune before a Dragon Dance.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Hidden Power Flying
    move 2: Rock Slide
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Brick Break / Fire Blast
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The closest thing to a 100% counter to this set is Ice Beam Suicune. Standard counters, such as Weezing, Milotic, Swampert, and Claydol, will not be able to withstand the Choice Band-boosted assault nearly as well, and will be 3HKOed in most cases. Again, the fourth moveslot is a toss-up; each of the moves has its obvious merits. Brick Break does huge damage to Tyranitar and helps a lot against Curse Snorlax. Fire Blast, however, can 2HKO Skarmory and can OHKO some Forretress.</p>

    <p>Adamant is the preferred nature for Choice Band Salamence, but a Jolly nature can be used to beat out other Salamence, Zapdos, and the myriad Pokemon that commonly run about 300 Speed. As for EVs, Salamence needs maximum Attack, no questions asked. The Speed investment, however, is up to preference. When in doubt, maximize it for a stat of 299, but 270 or 286 are fine numbers to hit as well. Any leftover EVs can go into HP.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Wish
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Salamence makes an excellent defensive Pokemon when backed by Intimidate. Wish gives it a semi-reliable recovery, and Salamence can use the sheer power of its former sets to its advantage here. Because Swampert and Milotic are such common switch-ins, Toxic can neuter them enough that they won't be able to perform their roles in checking other threats. Protect allows Wish to heal Salamence more easily, and also lets it stall with Toxic. Flamethrower nails Skarmory and Forretress, both of which might try to set up on you.</p>

    <p>Max HP and Defense when coupled with Intimidate allows Salamence to take on almost any physical attacker and stall it out with Toxic. An alternative set with an Adamant nature can be useful for keeping Tyranitar and Metagross in check while threatening Snorlax and Celebi. Earthquake and Hidden Power Flying should be used over Toxic and Flamethrower.</p>

    [SET]
    name: MixMence
    move 1: Hidden Power Grass
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Rash
    evs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The mixed nature of this Salamence lets it break walls, especially Swampert. The strategy for removing Swampert is simple: lure it in and let the Hidden Power Grass rip. Salamence's Special Attack is actually the 5th highest among OU Pokemon, and so Fire Blast can make short work of Skarmory and Forretress, while denting Jirachi, Metagross, and Celebi pretty hard. With 24 Attack EVs, Brick Break will always 2HKO Blissey in sand with Spikes, meaning that not even Blissey can safely come in. Snorlax and Tyranitar both need to avoid it as well. The last slot can be Dragon Claw or Rock Slide; the former of which will counter Flygon and other Salamence, while the latter is Salamence's strongest attack against Zapdos and Aerodactyl. Dragon Claw is a decent STAB attack though, and can be more easily spammed by Salamence.</p>

    <p>MixMence should use a Rash nature, as Ice attacks will KO it regardless; STAB Thunderbolts similarly 2HKO. The Defense drop from a Mild nature allows the likes of Heracross's Megahorn to 2HKO after Intimidate, which is unwanted. Maximum Speed ties with other Salamence, which can be key when using Dragon Claw. It also gets the jump on all variants of Suicune and Heracross.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Roar is effective if your opponent's Dragon Dance counter is a phazer such as Skarmory or Suicune; use Dragon Dance as they switch in and Roar them away before they can do the same in return.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Milotic, Swampert, and Suicune all wreck Salamence's sweep with Toxic or Ice Beam; Salamence cannot possibly OHKO them. Claydol and Weezing are immune to Earthquake and don't fall to Salamence's other moves too quickly either. Regice isn't too reliable as a Salamence counter, as it's weak to Brick Break and Rock Slide, but it can work in a pinch. Most other checks must play a guessing game. Zapdos and Aerodactyl can trouble Salamence that lack Rock Slide, while Skarmory is hard to defeat outside of a Fire-type move. Rock- and Steel-types, such as Tyranitar and Metagross, can also switch in easily on Choice Band Salamence. Finally, despite Salamence's good defensive typing, it has several crippling weaknesses. Most outstanding of these are Ice-type moves; examples include Zapdos's Hidden Power Ice, Gengar's Ice Punch, and Ice Beam from bulky Water-types.</p>


    [gp]1/2 and SCMSed[/gp]
  17. relaunched

    relaunched

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    299
    This is an amateur GP check.

    deletions additions comments


    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Salamence is one of the best sweepers in the current metagame. Its ability, Intimidate, coupled with resistances to Fighting and Bug, makes it a good switch-in to popular Pokemon such as Heracross, and its immunity to Ground-type attacks allows it to switch in on Earthquake. Nothing cleans up weakened teams as nicely as the Dragon Dance set does, and nothing switches in easily on the Choice Band set. If you expect one variant and it turns out to be another, chances are, you will be in a world of pain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Rock Slide / Fire Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This might be one of the best sweepers in the game, able to set up a Dragon Dance and sweep at any moment. There are two different ways to play this set: bring it in early to throw out powerful attacks, scouting for bulky Water-types, or save it for the late-game, waiting for the bulky Water-types of the opponent to be weakened. No matter which way how you play it, Dragon Dance Salamence is always going to be a threat with Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Rock Slide is the preferred option in the last slot, being as it is Salamence's best attack against Zapdos, and can take out opposing Salamence and Gyarados. Fire Blast is a good second option, however, denting Skarmory and Forretress extremely hard. If you opt for Rock Slide, make sure you have an answer to Skarmory with Magneton or some other lure, as Skarmory will consistently ruin your day.</p>

    <p>The basic EV spread is used for the purpose of being able to at minimum worst Speed tie other neutral-natured base 100s. While uncommon, it also outspeeds Jolly Heracross and is generally a safe Speed to hit. A bulkier spread is just as good, being able to survive more Ice Beams and tank hits from Heracross better. If you choose to use a bulkier version of Dragon Dance Salamence, use 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe to outspeed Adamant Heracross and Modest Suicune before a Dragon Dance.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Hidden Power Flying
    move 2: Rock Slide
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Brick Break / Fire Blast
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The closest thing to a 100% counter to this set is Ice Beam Suicune. Standard counters, such as Weezing, Milotic, Swampert, and Claydol, will not be able to withstand the Choice Band-boosted assault nearly as well, and will be 3HKOed in most cases. Again, the fourth moveslot is a toss-up; each of the moves has its obvious merits. Brick Break does huge damage to Tyranitar and helps a lot against Curse Snorlax. Fire Blast, however, can 2HKO Skarmory and can OHKO some Forretress.</p>

    <p>Adamant is the preferred nature for Choice Band Salamence, but a Jolly nature can be used to beat out other Salamence, Zapdos, and the myriad Pokemon that commonly run about 300 Speed. As for EVs, Salamence needs maximum Attack, no questions asked. The Speed investment, however, is up to preference. When in doubt, maximize it for a stat of 299, but 270 or 286 are fine numbers to hit as well. Any leftover EVs can go into HP.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Wish
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Salamence makes an excellent defensive Pokemon when backed by Intimidate. Wish gives it a semi-reliable recovery, and Salamence can use the sheer power of its former sets to its advantage here. Because Swampert and Milotic are such common switch-ins, Toxic can neuter them enough so that they won't be able to perform their roles in checking check other threats. Protect allows Wish to heal Salamence to heal more easily with Wish, and also lets it stall with Toxic. Flamethrower nails Skarmory and Forretress, both of which might try to set up on you.</p>

    <p>Max HP and Defense wWhen coupled combined with Intimidate, Max HP and Defense allow Salamence to take on almost any physical attacker and stall it out with Toxic. An alternative set with an Adamant nature can be useful for keeping to keep Tyranitar and Metagross in check while threatening Snorlax and Celebi. Earthquake and Hidden Power Flying should be used over Toxic and Flamethrower.</p>

    [SET]
    name: MixMence
    move 1: Hidden Power Grass
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Rash
    evs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The mixed nature of this Salamence lets it break walls, especially Swampert. The strategy for removing Swampert is simple: lure it in and let the Hidden Power Grass rip. Salamence's Special Attack is actually the 5th highest among OU Pokemon, and so Fire Blast can make short work of Skarmory and Forretress, while denting making a big dent in Jirachi, Metagross, and Celebi pretty hard. With 24 Attack EVs, Brick Break will always 2HKO Blissey in sand with Spikes (how many layers of Spikes?), meaning that not even Blissey can safely come in. Snorlax and Tyranitar both need to avoid it as well. The last slot can be Dragon Claw or Rock Slide; the former of which will counters Flygon and other Salamence, while the latter is Salamence's strongest attack against Zapdos and Aerodactyl. Dragon Claw is a decent STAB attack though, and can be more easily spammed by Salamence.</p>

    <p>MixMence should use a Rash nature, as Ice attacks will KO it regardless; STAB Thunderbolts similarly 2HKO. The Defense drop from a Mild nature allows the likes of Heracross's Megahorn to 2HKO after Intimidate, which is unwanted. Maximum Speed ties with other Salamence, which can be key when using Dragon Claw. It also gets the jump on all variants of Suicune and Heracross.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Roar is effective if your opponent's Dragon Dance counter is a phazer such as Skarmory or Suicune; use Dragon Dance as they switch in and Roar them away before they can do the same in return.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Milotic, Swampert, and Suicune all wreck Salamence's sweep with Toxic or Ice Beam; , while Salamence cannot possibly OHKO them. (Perhaps make this more specific by saying that Salamence needs x boosts to OHKO.) Claydol and Weezing are immune to Earthquake and don't fall to Salamence's other moves too quickly either. Regice isn't too reliable as a Salamence counter, as it's weak to Brick Break and Rock Slide, but it can work in a pinch. Most other checks must play a guessing game. Zapdos and Aerodactyl can trouble Salamence that lack Rock Slide, while Skarmory is hard to defeat outside of a Fire-type move. Rock- and Steel-types, such as Tyranitar and Metagross, can also switch in easily on most of Choice Band Salamence's moves. Finally, despite Salamence's good defensive typing, it has several crippling weaknesses. Most outstanding of these are Ice-type moves; examples include Zapdos's Hidden Power Ice, Gengar's Ice Punch, and Ice Beam from bulky Water-types.</p>


    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  18. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,478
    uploaded

    EDIT: moved back for discussion on the DD EV spread.
  19. HUARGH

    HUARGH

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    156
    I think 299 on DD is horrible. People keep saying 'it has its merits' but I don't see any of them.

    What generally happens is you bring in sala on something that'd run from it, meaning you're probably going to take a bit of damage as you switch in sala most of the time --> defensive EVs are superior. Then you're probably going to hit something on the switch, probably Swampert or whatever their main switch is --> 299 is irrelevant.
  20. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush in brazil rain
    is a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    469
    So... which spread are we keeping?
    I'm also a bulkymence optimistic: dishing hits slightly better can save your ass in most cases, being a speed creep is not that relevant, this is not DPPt... or at least shouldn't be.
  21. HUARGH

    HUARGH

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    156
    I would like to see 264 speed Salamence for DD; this gives it 396 speed after 1 DD, allowing it to outrun every pokemon found in OU bar Ninjask and Electrode (lol). The leftover EVs should probably go into sp.def; most Swamperts don't like EVs in sp.attk and have their sp.attk around 240 max (usually a bit lower), with Salamence having 252 in attack and 112 in speed (to reach 264) you have 144 EVs left to invest in sp.def, making Salamence survive a 240 sp.attk IB the majority of the time and always surviving a 234 sp.attk IB. This can be vital as Swampert is not easily OHKO'd, even after Dragon Dance. Let us not forget that most Suicune are rather tanky and generally lack sp.attk EVs as well.

    EDIT: let us not forget that even with 299, Salamence cannot outrun Ninjask, meaning that the only reason to go higher than 396 is:

    1. +Speed Electrode (lol)
    2. Protect Yanma with Speed Boost (lol)
    3. Some Endure/Salac pokemon such as Heracross and Smeargle (who really uses these with Tyranitar running amok?)
  22. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,304
    If we're going bulky, shouldn't 270 be the standard to outpace Adamant Heracross? I mean, one of the biggest selling points of the extra bulk is tanking Heracross better, but that hardly matters when you have to take 2 hits every time you switch in instead of only 1.
  23. HUARGH

    HUARGH

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    156
    Why would you want to outpace Heracross? And why is this the 'biggest selling point', if you ask me, being able to tank Heracross better is probably the least interesting and important reason for bulk. At most you're going to switch in Salamence onto Heracross, I doubt Heracross would stay in to fire off another attack making 270 speed irrelevant. You're probably doing something wrong if you end up in a situation where you have to swap Salamence into Heracross and then having to be faster - besides, the opponent doesn't know your speed EVs, for all he knows you could be 299. I'd invest the majority of my remaining EVs into sp.def, too, not HP.
  24. meteor64

    meteor64

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    321
    Um, the reason its one of ddmences biggest selling points is because its one of a very small bunch of pokes that can somewhat reliably check Hera. Remember these are supposed to be standard EVs for everyone to refer to, and if for some reason the standard is less than 270 then people WILL start leaving their Heras in on Mences because after a Megahorn/FP or two Rock Slide would be enough to finish off Mence safely without needing to predict or bring in Hera on on an extra attack, which isn't helpful at all to the Mence side. Saying "you're doing something wrong if you need to go to mence" is ridiculous because checking Heracross is something he's much better than most at. Unless you're suggesting every team should have either a Skarmory or Gengar to do that (or, lower down the barrel, a Dusclops even).

    Not only is 270 minimum important for beating Heracross, but additionally after a DD it also barely ousts Aero, Jolt, +2 Agiligross and +2 DDtar (of course you won't be dancing up alongside it, but when your only hope to stop a sweep is an RS miss then DD makes that far more possible).
  25. kokoloko

    kokoloko from Mexico
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,705
    There's really no point in running 270 anymore. Nearly all good players using Heracross run Jolly nowadays and even if they don't, I sure as fuck still wouldn't want to risk Salamence being slower. Same goes with offensive Suicune.

    I'm 100% behind finding a nice bulky spread, but at least pick a benchmark that won't get fucked over by "surprise, I run a +Spe nature!" if it's going to be the standard. 270 is fine for AC.

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