Salamence [full revamp] Stage 1 [GP 2/2]

[meteor64]

Yeah, I agree with you, 270 isn't as good as it was, but I think its important to consider as an absolute minimum.

That said I despise 252/252 as a spread, especially on a speed tier as common as Mences. I'd like to suggest 52 HP/252 Atk/204 Spd as an alternative for outspeeding all Hera whilst still retaining a degree of bulk. You're not really missing out on anything important in losing the speed anyway aside from speed ties with other Mence. Pretty straightforward and is superior to what we have imo.

edit- for some reason i had an immense brain fart and thought hera maxed out at 285 as opposed to 295, ignore the second paragraph of this

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Hello all, I'm new here, but not necessarily new to ADV. I joined because I read (more like heavily skim) these threads all the time and have questions, but haven't had the chance to ask. My first question is this:
Why was double edge removed from the move options for choice band salamence? I run it frequently with an adamant nature, and it messes up flygon and plenty of other neutral targets. While the recoil does severely limit Mences staying power, the extra power is more than worth it. I say that because more often than not, choice band salamence is used to severely weaken, or downright KO, the counters that heavy physical attacking sweepers have in common. Pairing this particular salamence (with double edge and an adamant nature) makes it much easier for something like dragon dance tyranitar, agility metagross, or even dragonite, to sweep later on. This means that it is not as important that salamence be at full health all the time, because his purpose in the match isnt to come in and sweep. At least that has been my experience with it. Anyways, that the first of many questions I have for you all, I would really appreciate it if someone could explain to m why double edge is no longer considered viable for salamence. Thank you.

 

[meteor64]

The only advantage DE has over HP Flying is 15 base power- in exchange you take considerable recoil (that you cannot recover without external methods such as Leech Seed and Wish) and lose out on any sort of decent coverage. Furthermore, with Tyranitar everywhere you'll be losing even MORE HP so any sort of longevity you need to actually bash through those waters and such is gone. Also, it gives Gengar and Skarmory an additional attack to switch in on.

But primarily the main reason its not there is simply because Brick Break and Fire Blast are better. They allow you to deal with additional things that its other moves do not, while Double Edge just allows you to hit things like Swampert and Milotic a little harder. Brick Break flat out OHKOs Tyranitar and is the only way without a crit you'll ever beat Porygon2, and additionally it smashes any Blissey/Lax/Regice who need a clutch Ice Beam/Selfdestruct to stop you. Fire Blast on the other hand gives you a tool to demolish Skarmory and Forretress with. Both are for the most part completely superior choices to Double Edge. Mence isn't like Aero in that its movepool is so poor that it has to resort to DE to fill out its slots, and Aero additionally has Rock Head to make it downside free.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

I see, so basically its all about coverage and the extra staying power then? That makes a lot of sense. I have another question, do you guys prefer the hoice band salamence or the dragon dance variant? I have not had much success with any dragon dancer other than Tyranitar, and I am honestly not sure why. What do you guys use more often, and why? Which is more efficient and which have you had the most success with. Choice band salamecne has helped me a great deal in the past, because dragon dance tyranitar is frequently my sweeper. I would like to use salamence as a dragon dancer, but he just dosent seem as good. can anyone convince me otherwise?

 

[meteor64]

This isn't really the place to ask things like that but I'll briefly indulge you-

Personally I think Flygon is marginally better at Choice Band than Mence is, so I tend not to use it too much, but I do highly value it as a threat. DDmence is great though, his only real obstacles are bulky waters which you can remove through other methods.

 

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Thank you for the response, I have never used flygon before so I will have to try him out. I will be opening a thread in the ruins of alph section with a Gen 3 tag so I can ask questions like this in the right place.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I have a problem with the damage calculations existing.

They all seem extremely obvious, and actually a bit underwhelming. Brick Break hitting Tyranitar and Blissey hard is pretty much common knowledge. Swampert being hit hard by Hidden Power Grass is extremely obvious. The EVs on the calculations also seem awkward. I'm not an RSE player but 16 HP / 120 Def seems... uncommon and situational. Furthermore, the fact that it can't OHKO anything in those calcs, even with 4x Super Effective attacks, seems wierd and makes me want to use it less (OHKO after Spikes and Sand is also strange to me)

Couldn't we just say "x move is for x, y, and z?" It takes up a lot less space and still gets the point across. I also don't think there are any other RSE with damage calcs so why did Salamence get it? My POV is that calcs should have that "wow" factor.

If the calcs stay at least get some stuff of there. Why would you ever want to showcase you can 3HKO a Pokemon with a Super effective attack after spikes? The 3HKO deal happens with Regice, Snorlax, Suicune, and Milotic. 3HKOs with entry hazards and SE attacks are far from impressive. Salamence being in its own calc is also a bit awkward.