Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Little Battler]

rather than having a debate that leads to nowhere, I'd suggest that we skip this part and go straight to testing. Is it really that hard to just test mence right now?

 

[MrIndigo]

Well, testing usually takes more than a month, and there are a number of other pokemon currently still in testing. As well as number of other agendad tests.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

rather than having a debate that leads to nowhere, I'd suggest that we skip this part and go straight to testing. Is it really that hard to just test mence right now?

This thread is trying to decide if we should have a test. That is the whole reason for the debate. And this thread has not gone nowhere: there has been a lot of great points from both sides and neither side has run out of arguments.

And testing is a lot of work. It takes a month of just playing. Then you have to find everyone that is qualified to vote. Then you vote. All together, it takes about a month and a half. So you better be sure this is the thing you want to test. Garchomp was a great test, especially the first time. Manaphy and Latias were as well. But those were worthwhile tests because the threats were so close to the line. So yes, it is really that hard to just test Salamence right now.

Now for my two cents. Salamence is a beast. No one has denied that. The DD set is brutal late game and almost requires a priority attack or Scarfer faster than Mence. However, Salamence is easily worn down by Stealth Rocks and Life Orb damage (forget Sandstorm for a little). Also, offensive Salamence has no business coming in on so many threats. Even Blissey is a constant threat with random Thunderwaves or Toxics or even Ice Beams flying around. Hell, Seismic Toss and Flamethrower take off enough damage with Stealth Rocks to limit Mence's abilities. Also, Mence must rely on Outrage to OHKO Blissey without a boost, making possibly the most viable switch-in an issue, as after an Outrage the Steel-types come in to kill off the dragon.

And Mence must rely on prediction to get in safely. And prediction is the most overhyped pokemon tactic out there. Prediction is guesswork, and winning should never come down to guessing. Sure, it may be an educated guess, but your opponent also made an educated guess, so it breaks even. Mence has issues coming in on almost every attack in the game. Even 10% on the switch-in (like Blissey's Flamethrower) gives Mence one less turn to attack or makes him instant prey for priority attackers. With Sandstorm, Stealth Rocks, and that 10% damage, Mence is left with 53% of his health just from switching in.

On the other side, if Mence gets in on a choiced Ground attack, he is free to wreak havoc. Getting Mence in for free means your opponent is going to be lucky if he/she doesn't lose a pokemon. Mence rapes any weakened team without a priority attacker or Scarfer. With Magnezone to deal with Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, and Jirachi, to name the most notable Outrage switch-ins, Mence is free to use a 180 BP attack off of possibly a 607 Attack stat or fire off 210 BP monstrosities from the special side, killing most checks coming in to take a physical attack, though at the cost of -2 Special Attack. Unless there is a wall at near 100%, Mence is going to kill of at least one pokemon. If it's the late game, forget about it. Did I mention Mence can recover of 50% of his health at any time and lose a weakness and a half?

Mence's counters are very limited. Cresselia, Porygon2, and Suicune are the only three that come to mind. Cresselia can take on any set but at the cost of a massive Pursuit weakness. Porygon2 fall to MixMence but beat DDMence. Suicune makes it a close call with both variants but comes out on top. Mence's checks, on the other hand, are everywhere. Scizor, Weavile, Scarf Latias, ScarfMie, ScarfGar, Scarf Jirachi, the list goes on. But there is one key fact here: they must revenge Mence. And that is an issue.

So what do I think? I don't know. At first I was all for testing Mence, but the more I look at it, the less sense I think it makes. I do not feel it to be Uber, but it seems just a little too powerful for the metagame. Unlike other Suspects, Salamence needs some support to go through a team. He has counters, not just checks like so many people have been saying. And so I tentatively say let Mence stay in OU.

 

[Little Battler]

okay, sorry. I'm hasty by nature (+ Spe - Def...??) so I often get upset by long winding debate and jump straight into the action.

Back to topic then

Salamence is powerful, yes. Great stats on both offensive, good speed, wide movepool. It's hard to take on mence 1 on 1, since it can carry practically anything, albeit not all in the same set. The variability of mence is the thing that makes it deadly, since it's almost impossible to know what set it's running. Mixmence minces its physical checks with a DM, while DD mence will be near unstoppable once it gets a DD. It's prone to revenge killing, of course, but what isn't? At least SR forces it to think twice before switching out in order not to get revenged by a scizor BP. But what if SR isn't up? well, I don't think even revenge killing is very viable, unless you're using pursuit.

So... maybe mence is a little bit, just a tiny, weeny, bit too much for OU, and removing mence might mean a lot less focus on using and countering one pokemon, but it might not be too good to be tested. For now I'm standing the middle ground.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

So what do I think? I don't know. At first I was all for testing Mence, but the more I look at it, the less sense I think it makes. I do not feel it to be Uber, but it seems just a little too powerful for the metagame. Unlike other Suspects, Salamence needs some support to go through a team. He has counters, not just checks like so many people have been saying. And so I tentatively say let Mence stay in OU.

I agree completely with your post, and mostly with this part. His counters walk in and suffer a gargantuan hit right off the bat, though, so despite not being killed they become horrifically crippled. Suicune is easily 2HKO'd by 2 Draco Meteors and guaranteed to go down with SR on the field, though you can double switch to a steel to cover it from the second one. Cress is a good switch-in if it's at full life, since it will survive 2 of whatever Mence does, but it'll be horrifically crippled after fighting it and it might just switch out for another round at the expense of some SR later. If Cress has taken any prior damage and the SR on the switch-in, it will be cleanly 2HKO'd. Either way, though, he has just dropped 1 or 2 of your Pokemon to the deathly crippled range just by switching in and playing normally. That capacity is a bit too much, if you ask me. I say it's still worth a test on the support characteristic (crashing your checks down to size so something else can come in and clean up with ease).

 

[DarkLynx]

Mence vs Latias
Mence can setup on choiced ground moves
Latias can setup on choiced ground moves

Mence takes 25% from SR damage
Latias takes 12% from SR damage

Mence after entering in SR, dragon dancing and attacking [Life Orb], dies from a Bullet Punch Scizor [or dies killing it]
Latias after entering in SR, calm minding and attacking [Life Orb], doesn't die from a bullet Punch Scizor.

The way I see it, Salamence is less uber than Latias, and Latias is no uber.
Yes, you can run lots and lots of sets in Salamence. But the offensive mence is weak as hell early game. You can roughly kill one poke, because you'll be on k.o. range with LO recoil and SR damage.
Bulky Mences usually doesn't have Dragon Dance, so it's easily k.oed by something like Tyranitar, because it fails to ohko with Earthquake and dies to Pursuit, Stone Edge or keeps being checked by Earthquake if it roosts.
If you ask me, Salamence is less uber than Gyarados, because you can kill a +6 Atk +6 Spe Mence with one single priority move. But you can't kill a +6 Atk +6 Spe Gyarados with any priority or scarfed poke.

And I too don't see the point of discussing it anymore, 'No' have 406+ votes while 'Yes' have 219. No way this is going to be taken in a suspect test losing by such a great margin.

 

[Objection]

I see a problem with your comparison: Mence can go mixed, thus reducing the number of possible checks/counters; Latias can't, so anything that can decently take a special attack (which is a hell of a lot more than just Blissey) is pretty much an automatic counter.

 

[Jumpman16]

since im not really interested in much else about this thread atm i will remind those of you without evident imaginations why the rayquaza/salamence comparisons need to stop:

a simple SD/OR/ES/EQ set with LO designed to kill everything and not lose to metagross i guess

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 Outrage
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band #1 Scizor : 310 - 366 90.4% - 106.7%

yeah always dies to +2 Outrage after SR, pretty good reason to not care about scizor. most importantly if it's a 2-turn outrage, scizor is not getting the chance to BP twice because ES does 40-47% and Ray's faster

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +1 ExtremeSpeed
vs. Naughty Life Orb #2 Salamence : 250 - 295 75.5% - 89.1%

always a OHKO after SR (and intim)


252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 Outrage
vs. 252/168 Bold Leftovers #3 Rotom-H : 459 - 540 151% - 177.6%

not even close (and sorry about that 86 base speed rotom). this calc also means that +2 DC kills...salamence needs +3 DC to guarantee a kill, or +1 Outrage but that's obviously risky and ray doesn't have to rely on it

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 Earthquake
vs. 252/0 Quiet Leftovers #4 Tyranitar : 636 - 750 157.4% - 185.6%

no...also WF and Outrage kill tyra too, scarf would be cute but whatever

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 ExtremeSpeed
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Scarf #5 Latias : 302 - 356 100% - 117.9%

never


and a simple DD/DC/ES/EQ set with LO, designed to not lose to priority pokemon that would revenge kill it (therefore no outrage)

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +1 Earthquake
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band #1 Scizor : 258 - 304 75.2% - 88.6%

ES always kills afterward, also this ray would have Defense EVs to take "only" ~45% BP cause it doesnt need max speed

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Claw
vs. Naughty Life Orb #2 Salamence : 500 - 590 151.1% - 178.2%

no


252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +1 Dragon Claw
vs. 252/168 Bold Leftovers #3 Rotom-H : 229 - 270 75.3% - 88.8%

kind of safe for rotom even given SR and one of the best answers to dd ray but rotom dies to the SD set every time (one that doesn't care about scizor revenging it)

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +1 Earthquake
vs. 252/0 Quiet Leftovers #4 Tyranitar : 478 - 564 118.3% - 139.6%

no and shut up scarf tyra

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +1 ExtremeSpeed
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Scarf #5 Latias : 226 - 267 74.8% - 88.4%

can kill with SR, also have fun if it's SD ray instead


i got bored but here's other stuff

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +1 ExtremeSpeed
vs. 40/0 Jolly Life Orb #37 Weavile : 294 - 347 101% - 119.2%

weavile can't IS before dying to ES because it is outsped after DD. doesn't even need SR to ensure the OHKO

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 ExtremeSpeed
vs. 0/4 Jolly Choice Band Mamoswine : 331 - 390 91.7% - 108%

always kills with sr and ray is faster

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 Outrage
vs. 252/176 Impish Shed Shell Skarmory : 185 - 218 55.4% - 65.3%

252 Adamant Life Orb Rayquaza +2 Outrage
vs. 252/80 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 255 - 300 75.4% - 88.8%

i wouldnt even bother with a fire move personally


tldr ray is uber and SD + ES is every bit as astronomical a difference between it and salamence as space poke rayquaza would suggest, dont insult ray with the comparison anymore

 

[DarkLynx]

I see a problem with your comparison: Mence can go mixed, thus reducing the number of possible checks/counters; Latias can't, so anything that can decently take a special attack (which is a hell of a lot more than just Blissey) is pretty much an automatic counter.

That would depend what kind of Latias you're using.
A Latias with:
Recover - Refresh - Dragon Pulse - Calm Mind

Isn't walled by any regular special wall (Blissey is 2HKO by Dragon Pulse +6 and can't do anything).

And even so, Salamence takes 1x or 4x to any priority moves. A Banded Lucario takes up to 50% in a ES, a banded Scizor takes up to 69%, a banded Weavile ohko it with Ice Shard, any scarfed 101+ base speed OHKO it with HP Ice.
Salamence can never run a set like Garchomp, and it's flying type makes it even easier to kill, since it takes 1x and 4x from the most commom attacks in his metagame...Thunderbolt and Ice Beam.

 

[Deaga]

I thought the whole "Mence for not suspect!" side of the discussion had said that damage calcs are irrelevant...?

 

[lordkira]

calcs are very good to show the little differences between the two similar pokemons when they are a lot of similar traits, which here could be ray and mence...to show just how ray is much more capable than mence is

 

[Age of Kings]

Still no answer has been reached after 27 pages and 661 posts?

 

[Aura Guardian]

664 now, and I stand my my statement that Mence is not Uber. Mence's checks are common eoungh, as is one of its counters (Scizor), that the metagame is capable of accepting Salamence. The popularity of Mence's checks/counters I judge to be more of the competence of the checks in the rest of battle rather than because of Salamence.

 

[Myzozoa]

Still no answer has been reached after 27 pages and 661 posts?

The only way to know at this point is to test, enough people are in doubt that a suspect test seems practical. The people who meet the qualifications of the test can then vote on its status. Very few people's minds are going to be changed by this thread.

 

[lordkira]

One question I have in my mind that I have had from the very beginning is that if we do decide to test it, what would be so very different from the meta we currently have with Salamence?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

One question I have in my mind that I have had from the very beginning is that if we do decide to test it, what would be so very different from the meta we currently have with Salamence?

Well, personally, I'd lose another popular 4x ice-weak target for my hail team. Other than that, *shrugs*.

At this point, I just hope Shoddy 2 and its double battle feature hits soon. Maybe then I'll have a metagame without as much of an obsession over counters/switches.

 

[lordkira]

Well, personally, I'd lose another popular 4x ice-weak target for my hail team. Other than that, *shrugs*.

At this point, I just hope Shoddy 2 and its double battle feature hits soon. Maybe then I'll have a metagame without as much of an obsession over counters/switches.

Salamence is pretty much not used too much here in Japan. It's a good pokemon but there are better pokies that can do similar roles since "we" follow the new VGC 2010 rules. But is Shoddy 2's double battling system follow the same set of rules?

 

[jumpluff]

This thread is a trainwreck, but: Salamence may or may not be über. However, the issue is whether it's suspect or not. I think that due to its controversial nature and undeniable ability to thrash a lot of the metagame as a sweeper, or rip holes in the team for others to sweep, (which, I believe, due to the vague nature of Support Characteristic, makes it a suspect under that as well) makes it very 'suspicious', but you'll be seeing more in PR soon.

 

[Nonary Game]

Hell, Salamence could fall under the Defensive(This is shaky though, since it's defenses aren't strong enough to wall a large amount of the metagame) or Support characteristics easily enough considering it's lovely set of resistances and it's huge movepool. Salamence could answer a lot of physical attackers with some defensive investment due to Intimidate(best done with a bit of speed investment to safely outspeed certain physical attackers, namely Adamant Lucario, who might pack Ice Punch or Stone Edge), and it can use Wish and Toxic to support a team, seeing how it is easy to force switches with him. This is just a mere example.

Either way, I personally don't see him as a suspect, but he is extremely dangerous and can be very unpredictable. The only thing of note is that I've seen teams having it as dead weight, often dying without doing anything, or being a monster on great teams that destroys other teams with the proper support. That's something I hope people are keeping in mind with this thread, that you cannot just throw Salamence on a team and not support it. You have to support it like every other 'mon on a team in some way, whether it be through Wish, Stealth Rock, type synergy, etc.

 

[LordVoid]

Hell, Salamence could fall under the Defensive(This is shaky though, since it's defenses aren't strong enough to wall a large amount of the metagame) or Support characteristics easily enough considering it's lovely set of resistances and it's huge movepool.

True, but I wouldnt go quite as far as to say that he fits the bill well enough to put into uber based on those characteristics. There are many pokemon in OU that destroy mence in the support and defensive field which are nowhere close to uber.

However, the fact that he, as you did just mention, can go support as well as being one of OU's greatest offensive threats already gives him a new niche. the problem that I have with mence isnt the sets he runs, but its more finding WHICH set he IS running. How many pokemon do you have to throw in Salamence's way before you can determine what set its using, and therefore how to counter it?

Personally, I do not think mence is uber, but the way I see it, there is no harm in testing it for suspect.

 

[Nonary Game]

True, but I wouldnt go quite as far as to say that he fits the bill well enough to put into uber based on those characteristics. There are many pokemon in OU that destroy mence in the support and defensive field which are nowhere close to uber.

However, the fact that he, as you did just mention, can go support as well as being one of OU's greatest offensive threats already gives him a new niche. the problem that I have with mence isnt the sets he runs, but its more finding WHICH set he IS running. How many pokemon do you have to throw in Salamence's way before you can determine what set its using, and therefore how to counter it?

Personally, I do not think mence is uber, but the way I see it, there is no harm in testing it for suspect.

I wouldn't go so far to say he needs to be tested as of yet. I'm not a part of PR so I can't really figure out if and when he'll be suspect. It's not a matter of if he's uber or not, whether he is due to be tested to be a suspect or not considering his power.

Either way, this is a team game in itself, but should Salamence not actually end up sweeping teams, which seems to be the case a lot of the time, what about the holes he'll leave in teams for other teammates to exploit? Either way, if it does get to the point of suspect testing, I'd think it'd be the matter of him falling under a combination of all three characteristics more than anything else, despite the characteristics being a framework at best.

 

[DJXO9]

I'm going to start off by saying that very rarely does Salamence pull off a legit sweep. He is although extremely capable of ripping holes in the opponents team. If you want to sweep with Salamence, you almost need a Magnezone or something close like a Rotom-H that is very good at handling Steel-types such as Jirachi and Scizor.

MixMence though, is I think easily the best Salamence set though, as it has a ton of different movepool options. MixMence also doesn't need as much team support as do the different DD versions. Depending on what pokemon you need out of the way, Salamence can do it. If you trying to sweep with a SubPetaya Empoleon, I would give my Salamence Brick Break to hopefully take out Blissey who might hope to sponge a Draco Meteor. That is just a single example of how Salamence can support its teammates. Therefore if Salamence were to become suspect, I think it should be under the support category.

I think Salamence is very much suspect. The point is that he is extremely functional in OU, enough that we might suspect him of not being OU material. I am not, however saying that I believe him to be Uber. I am saying that because he is so good in OU, he should at the very least be given a chance at suspect.

 

[DarkLynx]

Salamence has no place in uber metagame, since previously mentioned, Rayquaza is a powered up Salamence. Why would you use Salamence? Intimidate? As if Intimidate make any difference in Uber, most attackers are mixed or special or dragon that kicks salamence in the nut (Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai, Palkia, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Kingdra (in rain), Latios).

Salamence would never shine in Uber because of its 100 base speed, Garchomp became Uber mostly because if you throw a scarf at it, you revenge kill the whole metagame (unless you see something like Scarf Darkrai/Mewtwo o_O). But with 100 base speed, he'll have to use scarf just to get on a speed tie with the mighty Scarf Palkia.

Face it, Salamence is a SUPER pokemon, that's why some tournments make 1 SUPER only, but he is OU, he might be the Dragon King of OU, but he's OU. There's no point in doing suspect rating to a pokemon that isn't uber material.

 

[lordkira]

First of all, I will say that I also believe MixMence to be the best overall Salamence set. I won't be talking about why the mixed variant is amazing, simply because it has already been discussed even in this thread quite a few times and also because I believe that most people here know why. Though I don't see Salamence to be an UBER material (particularly because of SR at this point but if SR clause is ever created I will have to change my side on this discussion), it is most definitely a VERY powerful pokemon. With its GREAT versatility to be an offensive force (DD) as well as a supportive drive (mixed), along with its superior distribution of stats...Salamence is indeed powerful. However, I see that there are many people in doubts of his tier standing, and I see this as a mean of suspect testing ground for Salamence. The ambiguity of its tier placement, which I believe many people will have to agree due to its power supported by its definite flaws, alone is enough of a reason to suspect its placement in the Smogon's tier list.

Though...I am not quite sure as to how the testing will (if it ever does happen) be done differently from the meta we have currently.

 

[Aura Guardian]

EDIT: @ DarkLynx
For what seems like the zillionth time, UBER STATUS IS DETERMINED BY PERFORMANCE IN OU, NOT IN UBERS!

EDIT AGAIN: Though I'm against a test, I might suggest we use the same ladder, only moniter use of Mence to see how much everyone goes up against it.