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Salamence (Ubers Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Furai, Nov 26, 2011.

  1. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    STATUS: Done!

    Code:
    [B]QC Checks:[/B] trickroom, shrang, Fireburn
    [B]GP Checks:[/B] sirndpt, sandshrewz

    [Overview]

    <p>Salamence is often overshadowed by Rayquaza. However, many people forget that the two can be tango-partners! Dragon-type attacks are only resisted by one type in the game, Steel, thus making this combo very hard to stop. Either Rayquaza or Salamence can soften opposing Steel-types, allowing the other to wreak havoc on the opponent's team. However, sharing the same typing does have its drawbacks. Being weak to common Dragon- and Ice-type attacks is not pleasant at all. Moreover, both are weak to Stealth Rock and hurt badly by common priority moves, such as Bullet Punch and ExtremeSpeed, thus both require a lot of team support.</p>

    <p>Salamence's offensive stats and typing make it an amazing sweeper. With base 135 Attack, access to Dragon Dance, and a very wide movepool with good coverage, it's guaranteed that the flying salamander will be a nightmare for many teams. Dream World also introduced a new ability for Salamence: Moxie. Moxie grants an Attack boost each time Salamence kills an opponent, and with the aforementioned qualities, it's more than likely to happen. However, as Dragon Dance, Outrage, and Moxie aren't obtainable together, Salamence has to settle for utilizing a Choice Scarf set with its newly introduced ability. Salamence might be a forgotten wonder, but don't let its rarity fool you, as it is definitely a deadly force in Ubers.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Salamence's great stats, amazingly wide movepool, and typing make it a devastating sweeper. Not only that, though; Salamence gets access to one of the greatest set-up moves it could ask for: Dragon Dance. The goal is to set up at any opportunity Salamence gets, or keep it for late-game, creating holes in the opponent's team and maybe sweep. This can be achieved with ease because Salamence forces many Pokemon, such as Ferrothorn and Chansey, to switch. The most notable foes Salamence sets up against, however, are Choice Scarf users that are locked into a move that Salamence resists, such as Palkia locked into Surf or Terrakion locked into Close Combat.</p>

    <p>The set is pretty much straightforward. Dragon Dance is Salamence's best set-up move, and this set utilizes it very well. Outrage is an amazing STAB move, especially in a tier with Dragon-type Pokemon lurking everywhere. Outrage's Base Power reaches 180 after STAB, and will do enormous damage to just about everything. Earthquake and Fire Blast grant Salamence coverage; Earthquake hits the likes of Steel Arceus, Heatran, and Dialga, while Fire Blast is used to roast Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Forretress. These three moves combined are unresisted by any single Pokemon, making Salamence a very deadly sweeper.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>To demonstrate Salamence's power, here are some calculations:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 4/0 Kyogre 125.73% - 148.25%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/252+ Kyogre 75.25% - 88.61%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/0 Manaphy 97.28% - 114.60%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/0 Dialga 82.67% - 97.52%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/252+ Arceus 56.08% - 66.22%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/144 Arceus 66.89% - 79.05%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 4/252 Chansey 88.32% - 103.89%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/252+ Groudon 54.95% - 64.85%</li>
    <li>+1 Outrage vs 252/4 Skarmory 43.71% - 51.50%</li>
    <li>+1 Earthquake vs 252/0 Dialga 92.57% - 109.41%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast vs 252/252+ Forretress (no weather) 134.46% - 159.32%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast vs 252/252+ Forretress (in rain) 67.80% - 80.23%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast vs 252/252+ Ferrothorn (no weather) 89.77% - 106.82%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast vs 252/252+ Ferrothorn (in rain) 45.45% - 54.55%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Life Orb is the best and only item that should be considered for this set, as it boosts Salamence's damage output by 30% while still retaining its ability to change moves. Intimidate is the chosen ability, because Moxie cannot be used with both Dragon Dance and Outrage. If you still wish to use this ability, however, feel free to use Dragon Claw over Outrage, but the loss in power is massive. A Naive nature is used for more Speed, as it lets +1 Salamence outspeed +1 Rayquaza, Choice Scarf Palkia, and Choice Scarf Dialga. The EV spread is also straightforward; Salamence's Attack and Speed are maximized, and the leftover 4 EVs are dumped into Special Attack in order to boost Fire Blast's power by a bit. Stone Edge is a viable alternative over Fire Blast, as it deals 66.35% - 78.37% to the standard Great Wall Lugia, and has a 28.21% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock. However, in non-damaging weather, or if Lugia switches into Dragon Dance, Lugia will survive the attack and OHKO with Ice Beam, or phaze Salamence out with Dragon Tail.</p>

    <p>Entry hazards are probably the greatest support Salamence could ask for, as they help it score many important OHKOs and 2HKOs. For example, as shown in the calculations, after Stealth Rock damage, Salamence will always OHKO standard Chansey with a boosted Outrage and standard defensive Dialga with a boosted Earthquake. Forretress excels in this job, as not only can it set up Spikes and Stealth Rock, it can also Rapid Spin away Stealth Rock, which hurts Salamence, and Volt Switch to bring Salamence in safely. Mixed Rayquaza also makes an amazing partner, as it lures in Groudon and Lugia, who are troublesome for this set, and strikes them with a powerful Draco Meteor. Rayquaza can then proceed to weaken the opponent's team, paving way for Salamence to sweep. Wobbuffet can defeat most Choice Scarf users, who are a pain for Salamence, as most can either outrun or Speed tie with it even after the Dragon Dance boost. Wobbuffet can also Encore Earthquakes and Close Combats, allowing Salamence to switch in safely and set up easily. A Steel-type Pokemon of your own makes a great teammate, as Steel-types have perfect synergy with Salamence. Scizor is especially good, as it can U-turn out to bring Salamence in unharmed and kill weakened foes with Bullet Punch, making Salamence's sweep easier. Darkrai is also a great partner, because it can beat Lugia with its super effective STAB Dark Pulse. Darkrai also supports Salamence by putting something to sleep with Dark Void, allowing Salamence to set up in front of said sleeping opponent. Groudon brings sun, which boosts Fire Blast's power, sets up Stealth Rock, and can beat Extreme Killer Arceus; therefore, it also makes a solid teammate.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While this set may seem outclassed by Garchomp and Palkia, Salamence has one great advantage over them: its newly introduced ability, Moxie. Choice Scarf Salamence reaches a blazing Speed of 492, which outpaces many top threats in Ubers, such as Deoxys-A, Darkrai, Mewtwo, and Shaymin-S. It also Speed ties with Palkia, the most common Choice Scarf user. The point in this set is to surprise the opponent, such as in a situation where the opponent has a boosted Mewtwo packing Ice Beam at 80% of its health. Salamence's base Speed is lower than Mewtwo's, so the opponent will likely leave Mewtwo out, and then will be shocked as his genetic Pokemon is OHKOed by Outrage. But it doesn't stop there! After Salamence has killed one of the opponent's Pokemon, its Dream World ability activates, and boosts its Attack by one stage. Dragon Claw is Salamence's best choice against a weakened opponent, as it doesn't lock Salamence or leave it confused. Fire Blast and Earthquake are fillers, but they have perfect coverage with Salamence's Dragon-type STAB moves.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Naive nature is used to make Salamence as fast as possible, while not lowering its Special Attack, so Fire Blast will not lose power. Moxie is the preferred ability as it is this set's niche in Ubers. Dragon Dance is not needed anyway, thus Moxie is the superior ability. The EVs are straightforward: maximize Salamence's Attack so Outrage will hit as hard as possible, and maximize Salamence's Speed so it will outrun as many foes as it can. A Naughty nature can be used if you wish to strike the opponent harder, but it will cost you some Speed, meaning you will be slower than Choice Scarf Dialga, Choice Scarf Hydreigon, and +1 Rayquaza, which might cost Salamence's sweep.</p>

    <p>When Salamence utilizes a Choice Scarf, it becomes a great cleaner, so before you send in Salamence, you will want to stack some damage on the opponent. There are a few ways to do so. Entry hazards will put a lot of pressure on the opponent; Stealth Rock and Spikes in particular can take 50% maximum out of the opponent's health, making Salamence's job much easier. Hard hitters, such as Choice Specs Dialga, Choice Specs Palkia, Choice Band Zekrom, and more, also do this well. Mixed Rayquaza once again is an amazing partner, as it can lure out many physical walls, such as Groudon and Lugia, and hit them hard with Draco Meteor. Salamence's weaknesses to Ice-, Rock-, and Dragon-type moves make Steel-type Pokemon great partners, as they resist all of Salamence's weakness. Scizor deserves a special mention here as well, as it can utilize U-turn to bring Salamence in safely. Stone Edge can be used over Earthquake or Fire Blast in order to pick off Flying-types, such as Lugia and Ho-Oh. Draco Meteor can be used over Dragon Claw to surprise Groudon and Lugia, but the stat drops make Salamence set-up bait.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Salamence can run a mixed set very well, as it gets access to many amazing offensive moves, such as Draco Meteor, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast, and Brick Break. However, such a set is outclassed by Rayquaza, who has better offensive stats and priority in ExtremeSpeed. Salamence can learn one move that Rayquaza can't: Roost, which is an amazing reliable recovery move, especially on offensive Pokemon. In the Ubers environment, however, Salamence will likely not get the chance to Roost off. In the rain, Hydro Pump, with 4 Special Attack EVs, 2HKOes specially defensive Skarmory and Forretress, and OHKOes Heatran. Flamethrower can be used over Fire Blast if you don't want to risk a miss, but the loss in power is very significant. Crunch is another option if you wish to hit Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon harder, but Outrage is strong enough, and Crunch's coverage is very narrow. Furthermore, a neutral Outrage is stronger than a 2x super effective Crunch.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>As Salamence is very versatile, it doesn't have many counters. However, because Salamence shares the same typing as Rayquaza, they both have similar counters. The best way to take on Salamence is by forcing it to use Outrage, and then switch to a bulky Steel-type such as Skarmory, Bronzong, or Steel Arceus. Skarmory and Bronzong can Toxic Salamence; additionally, the former can Roost the damage off and phaze Salamence away with Whirlwind, and the latter can hit Salamence very hard with either Hidden Power Ice or Gyro Ball. Steel Arceus can burn Salamence with Will-O-Wisp, set up Calm Minds on it, and Recover the damage it has taken. Steel Arceus is also capable of phazing by using Roar, or it can limit Salamence's outrageous sweep by using Perish Song. Timid Lugia with maximum Speed EVs can outspeed a Salamence and OHKO with Ice Beam, but it risks being OHKOed by a +1 Stone Edge. The Great Wall Lugia, however, only has 28.21% chance of being OHKOed by +1 Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage, making it a decent counter. In return, Lugia can phaze Salamence with Dragon Tail or Whirlwind, cripple it with Thunder Wave, or go for the kill with Ice Beam. Lugia can also heal itself with Recover or Roost. Cresselia falls in the same boat as Lugia; she can take a +1 Outrage, heal herself with Moonlight, and cripple Salamence with Thunder Wave or simply finish it off with Ice Beam. Groudon also makes a solid counter, as it only takes 64.85% maximum from a +1 Outrage, and from there either phaze with Dragon Tail, OHKO Salamence with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage, or cripple Salamence with Thunder Wave. Any bulky Arceus form except Dragon Arceus can burn Salamence or phaze it; as mentioned, Steel Arceus is the best option. Choice Scarf Garchomp and Shaymin-S outspeed +1 Salamence and can OHKO with Outrage or Hidden Power Ice, respectively. Choice Scarf Palkia can also OHKO Salamence with Spacial Rend or Draco Meteor, but risks losing the Speed tie with +1 Salamence. Mamoswine and Weavile, though extremely rare, don't mind Salamence's Speed boost because their 4x super effective STAB Ice Shard will always strike first, bypassing Salamence's boosts. Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock; each switch in strips it of 25% of its health, so if you can keep them on the field, Salamence will have a hard time setting up and sweeping. Moreover, Salamence's defenses aren't high, so priority moves from the likes of Scizor and Arceus will wear it down quickly.</p>
  2. trickroom

    trickroom
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    I think Dragon Claw has to be removed as a slash. Salamence really needs the power from Outrage to get past many bulkier Ubers such as Kyogre and a +1 Dragon Claw doesn't even OHKO Mewtwo. What does Stone Edge do besides OHKOing Ho-Oh who takes massive damage from Outrage anyway? Using Dragon Claw also allows Arceus, Groudon and Lugia to have an easier time with you. +1 Stone Edge still fails to KO Lugia after SR.

    I am not sure about the other two sets. Ubers Mixed Mence seems a bit too weak especially when you have just 4 Atk EVs. Draco Meteor doesn't even OHKO Groudon after Spikes. Arceus will just Recover off the damage and KO you.

    I don't like the Choice Scarf set at all, Palkia and Garchomp seems to be way better. Palkia has those useful resistances, more powerful and only one weakness. Garchomp is resistant to SR, faster, bulkier and has STAB Earthquake to beat Steel Arceus. Is Outrage even allowed with Moxie, which you have it in your set?

    In terms of power, Zekrom seems to be the superior Scarf user while Hydreigon gets U-Turn and a better typing as a Scarf user.
  3. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Oops, sorry about the Outrage on Scarf set. Will edit now.


    Although I agree with all you said, I'll wait for other QC members to give me their thoughts. Thanks though, trickroom c:
  4. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Outrage and Moxie goes hand in hand actually. Bagon can have Outrage when you get Bagon in the DW.
  5. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Yeah I'd say dump the mixed set, Rayquaza is much better at helping Mence sweep than the other way around due to its significantly better offenses/options as a mixed attacker.

    Dump Stone Edge on the DD set for the reasons trickroom pointed out.

    I'll test the Scarf set, Moxie might be cool but I'm not sure about it yet.
  6. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I know nothing about DW and Breeding etc etc, but PO rejected this. Probably PO isn't updated or something, but double checking should be nice. Thanks for note man!



    Changes have been made, Fireburn and trickroom.
  7. dragonboy52

    dragonboy52
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    Actually: Bagon can have both Moxie and Outrage.
    It can also have Dragon Dance and Moxie.
    But, It can not have Dragon Dance, Outrage, and Moxie.
    (You can check the List of released DW Pokemon as reference and proof.)
  8. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Alright, thanks a lot dragonboy!
  9. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Stone Edge does 66.35% - 78.37% to standard Lugia, which gives you chance of shooting it down with some prior damage. What can Lugia do in return? Dragon Tail you out of there, I guess. It can Ice Beam you too, but then it's just easy pickings for pretty much anything.

    EDIT: And yes, also agreeing that Dragon Claw is not worth it, especially when you consider that +1 Outrage does more than +2 Dragon Claw.
  10. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Agreeing with Trick Room about dropping Dragon Claw. Make Outrage and Intimidate the only slashes on the DD set. I'd also mention Mix Rayquaza in AC to soften up Salamence's counters when you get around to writing the skeleton.
  11. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Okay, I have moved Dragon Claw and Moxie to the AC section.

    If you guys could discuss more about Stone Edge on the DD set it would be great, for now it's AC material.

    Thanks a lot!
  12. alex 67

    alex 67

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    Just some nitpicking but Defense goes before Speed in the evs. I know it's just a skeleton but still. I'm thinking Salamence might be a little outclassed for the Scarf set, but I can still see it having a little merit. Definitely de-slash Draco Meteor though since it's probably weaker then or just as strong as Dragon Claw, and it's basically an invitation for set-up after one use.
  13. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    @alex 67: Mentioned in AC, thanks


    Phew. The Skeleton definetly was a lot of effort.

    Hope I covered most things, check it out
  14. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    I am really unsure about the Choice Scarf set. Sure it has Moxie to pump up its attack stat but thats not enough for me to use it over Palkia. Palkia has that boss defensive typing and better overall offensive firepower. In Rain, Salamence doesnt even stand a chance of 2HKOing and Outrage will never even OHKO 4 HP Scarf Ogre even with SR. With Spikes and SR, it has very small chance of OHKOing (less than 5% I think) since the base damage is 64.3% - 76.3%. Even at +1 Outrage does 34.1% - 40.1% to 252/0 Sassy Ferrothorn. So, I doubt the Scarf set is effective. I'll still try it out when the new client comes out.
  15. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I can still see Scarf Mence having a few pros over Palkia, in situations against like +1 Mewtwo, Ho-oh, and probably Shaymin-S too because it can be a dick when you're locked to Surf or something. Plus Moxie abuse with Outrage is so sweet.

    Ayway guys, I want you to comment about my skeleton to check if I got everything.
  16. alex 67

    alex 67

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    After some thought I agree that the Scarf set does'nt really have enough on Palkia. Any advantage with immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes is negated by the Stealth Rock weakness and Palkia can use Outrage too to get past Ho-Oh and Blissey. Lack of a secondary stab really hurts too and not being able to revenge kill many ubers at full health just sucks. Not to mention Palkia's awesome typing and excellent Special Defense that allows it to take some of the most powerful attacks in the game.
  17. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Okay, I played with the Scarf set on the new client on the PO server, and I thought it was alright. Sure, most of the PO players are horrible, but its performance against a few good players did not disappoint me. I kind of just chucked it on my Jynx team over Palkia to give it a whirl, since Jynx can take Water Spouts and stuff already. Get up some hazards and this thing can sweep pretty easily if you let it pick off Darkrai or something like that. The great thing about this Mence is that it's pretty independent (SR weak sucks but Spikes and Toxic Spikes immune is not). I'll probably approve it, but I'll talk to everyone else first.

    So yeah, if any QC member want to test, use my team and have a try:

    Show Hide
    VOR GOTT! (Dialga) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 SAtk / 140 SDef / 20 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar
    - Fire Blast

    FREUDE (Salamence) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    GOTTERFUNKEN (Giratina-O) @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 236 Atk / 236 SAtk / 36 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak

    ELYSIUM (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost

    SEELE (Jynx) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 248 HP / 44 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Ice Beam
    - Nasty Plot
    - Substitute

    LIEBER VATER (Kyogre) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder
  18. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I wish I could test Moxie Salamence; but 10.0.52 crashes my computer, apparently, so I cannot use it until a new version comes out or I get told it's safe.
  19. trickroom

    trickroom
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    I will probably approve the Dragon Dance set. When I get the time, I will try out Scarf Salamence.

    I think you should remove Naughty nature on the Scarf set because getting outsped by Scarf Dialga isn't fun at all when you are like +2 Attack. Salamence misses the extra power but it should go all out in Speed to outspeed Dragon Dance Rayquaza and even the occasional Scarf Hydreigon. The Speed tie with Palkia can be game deciding. Keep it in AC.

    This is actually a 0% OHKO with SR when Lugia switches in as you Dragon Dance, Leftovers recovery will be active. Unless the weather is Sandstorm or Hail, Lugia will survive the attack or if Lugia doesn't switch in immediately on Dragon Dance. I think you should mention that.

    Mention Stone Edge on the Scarf set to 2HKO Timid Lugia after SR and OHKO Ho-Oh.
  20. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    All mentioned, trickroom.
  21. trickroom

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    Yeah Scarf Salamence is cool, I tried it. Moxie really allows it to clean up rather easily. People tend to sack weakened mons anyway which Salamence can easily abuse. I like Salamence's Speed too, which is always useful to revenge Rayquaza. Keep Naive, because outspeeding DD Rayquaza and many other Scarf users are very useful.

    Scarf Mewtwo needs to go off the Counters section because we agreed it sucks.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  22. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Thanks trickroom. Removed ScarfTwo.
  23. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    QC APRROVED 2/3
  24. Garganator

    Garganator

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    Out of curiosity - 'Wallbreaker' set from Gen 4 (DD/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Outrage) isn't posted in this analyses. It lost viability in this Gen ? And if I may ask why ? It's about Arceus forms with full EVs available ? It looks strange especially when it's mentioned in OO that it can run Mixed set VERY well. While I agree Mixed set without DD is totally outclassed by Rayquaza, but with that additional speed (which helps a ton) I don't think it's the case anymore (with DD that is).
  25. Banedon

    Banedon

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    903
    I'm curious about this line. Why is it usually outclassed by those two, and why bother with Salamence then if it's outclassed?

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