1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

OU Salamence

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Sturdynips, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    QC: PK Gaming, Fuzznip, ShootingStarmie
    GP: sirndpt, Wyvern56


    Overview
    ########
    While it was a serious force to be reckoned with in past generations, Salamence has since declined in effectiveness as others, such as Dragonite and Mega Charizard X, generally outperform it as a setup sweeper, thanks to their respective abilities, Multiscale and Tough Claws. The introduction of the Fairy-type further hurt Salamence as it lacks the coverage moves to break through bulky Fairies. Furthermore, a weakness to Stealth Rock and base 100 Speedwhich falls just short of many threatening Pokemon in OUmean that Salamence can be revenge killed fairly easily even at +1, and cannot sweep teams as effectively as it once could.

    However, Salamence has a few redeeming qualities. It has access to the fantastic setup move Dragon Dance, which when backed by its high base Attack, allows Salamence to hit extremely hard after a boost. Intimidate is an excellent ability which makes setting up a Dragon Dance boost slightly easier, while Moxie allows Salamence to plow through defensive and balanced teams. In addition, Salamence's decent Special Attack and access to Fire Blast prevent common physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress from stopping it completely.


    Dragon Dance
    ########
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Naive

    Moves
    ========
    Dragon Dance is imperative on this set, as it provides a vital boost to Salamence's Attack and Speed, allowing it to outrun all of the unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, with the exception of Deoxys-S. Outrage is the preferred Dragon-type STAB move due to its high Base Power, but Dragon Claw is perfectly viable if being locked into Outrage is undesirable. The decrease in power is significant, though. Steel-types that resist Salamence's Dragon-type attacks are hit hard by Earthquake and Fire Blast. Earthquake hits the likes of Heatran, Aegislash, and Excadrill super effectively and is Salamence's best option against most Fairy-types. Fire Blast covers Steel-types such as Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Scizor, all of which can survive a boosted Earthquake. If desired, Fire Fang can be used for its higher accuracy, its power being boosted by Dragon Dance, and useful burn and flinch chance. However, it fails to OHKO Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn even at +1, and so is generally inferior to Fire Blast. Finally, Hydro Pump is an interesting option over Fire Blast. It allows Salamence to defeat Landorus-T and Hippowdon; Pokemon that are usually excellent answers to Physical attackers.


    Set Details
    ========
    A Naive nature ensures maximum Speed without reducing the power of Fire Blast. If Fire Fang is used instead, a Jolly nature is ideal. The item choice comes down to personal preference. A Lum Berry gives Salamence insurance against status, allowing it to set up a Dragon Dance on the likes of Rotom-W and Jellicent, and can cure confusion induced by Outrage. On the other hand, a Life Orb provides greater attacking power and ensures that Salamence can OHKO defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock. Intimidate is preferred, as it can potentially grant more opportunities to set up a Dragon Dance, as well as weaken opposing Pokemon. Moxie is an option if the extra Attack boosts are appealing; however, Salamence often cannot defeat its checks even at +1 or +2.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Salamence's role is to attempt a late game sweep, or to weaken opposing walls to allow a teammate to sweep more easily. If using Lum Berry, Salamence can safely set up Dragon Dance against opposing status inducers, as long as they are not Pokemon with Prankster. Naturally, only set up in this situation if you are sure that Salamence can KO the status user on the next turn. Life Orb sets are more suited to wallbreaking, especially when facing more defensive teams. Be wary of your opponent baiting you to lock Salamence in with Outrage; it is wise to avoid immediately selecting Outrage if your opponent has a healthy Fairy- or Steel-type remaining. If Salamence is locked into Outrage and not confused, any Fairy-type can easily revenge kill it. Remember, with Intimidate, Salamence can provide useful team support in the event that it is less effective against the opposing team, or if it has been crippled by status. As such, it can occasionally be a good idea to preserve Salamence in order to weaken opposing physical sweepers. Be cautious about using Salamence's Intimidate against Defiant users, particularly Bisharp, which will have their Attack boosted to +1 rather than dropped to -1.


    Team Options
    ========
    Salamence is best suited to offensive teams with partners that can weaken each others' checks. Lucario, Mega Charizard X, and Scizor appreciate the opposing physical walls being weakened or removed, and in turn can weaken walls for Salamence. Entry hazard support is very useful; for example, two layers of Spikes give Lum Berry variants an 87% chance to OHKO 252 / 48 Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, making offensive Spikers such as Deoxys-S and Greninja good partners. Similarly, Salamence's weakness to Stealth Rock means that Rapid Spin support is appreciated; Defog is usually not optimal as it removes all hazards, and Salamence really needs them on the opponent's side of the field. Excadrill is an excellent spinner which can lay down Stealth Rock as well as threaten Fairy-types with Iron Head. Starmie is also a good Rapid Spin user; in addition, it is a nice check to Mamoswine.


    Other Options
    ########
    Salamence has several alternate options at its disposal. Stone Edge is useful to hit Togekiss super effectively, as it completely walls Salamence otherwise. A Choice Scarf set designed to sweep using Moxie boosts can potentially be effective, but Salamence has poor coverage moves to be locked into. A dedicated mixed attacker set can take common physical walls by surprise with Draco Meteor, but this comes with a decrease in physical attacking power which makes wallbreaking difficult. Salamence's decent bulk and access to Roost makes a bulky support set possible, but this is outclassed by Dragonite and generally a waste of Salamence's offensive potential. Similarly, Tailwind or Defog can provide team support, but all of Salamence's moves are very important and leave it sorely lacking in coverage if one is removed.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Fairy-types**: Togekiss is an excellent counter, as it is immune to Salamence's Dragon-type STAB as well as Earthquake, and takes very little from Fire Blast. Azumarill can KO with Play Rough or set up with Belly Drum on a locked-in Outrage. Clefable, especially Unaware variants, takes little from Salamence's attacks even when boosted, and can retaliate with a STAB Moonblast.

    **Common Priority**: Revenge killing with priority is a good way to check Salamence; Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile is able to revenge kill even Salamence that have set up, making it particularly effective. Scizor, Bisharp, and Talonflame have strong neutral priority moves and can potentially KO Salamence after Stealth Rock damage.

    **Physical Walls**: Physical walls such as Mega Blastoise and Hippowdon can take boosted hits and either KO or phaze Salamence out. Similarly, bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Heatran can switch into Outrage easily, though they must be wary of switching into Earthquake.

    **Stealth Rock**: Salamence loses 25% of its health when it switches into Stealth Rock, which limits its sweeping potential by making it easier to revenge kill. Hippowdon and Landorus-T can set up Stealth Rock and comfortably wall Salamence, making them worrisome for it.

    **Faster Choice Scarf Users** Strong Choice Scarf users that can outrun Salamence at +1 and KO, such as Garchomp, Terrakion, and Latios, make for good checks.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  2. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
    is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,439
    I would slash Intimidate after Moxie. Sure, having the snowball effect that Moxie brings lategame is nice, but I think the setup chances that Intimidate can provide are also important. The only downside I would say is Bisharp, but Salamence can't really switch in on Bisharp anyway so it's not a big deal, imo.
    The Jaiho likes this.
  3. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    952
    No Choice Scarf set? It still makes a great late-game cleaner with Moxie and Scarf.
    DFB3636 and MarkWahlbergIsAPin like this.
  4. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,147
    I think Intimidate might the better ability for DD Salamence in Gen VI. Moxie was great because you could do serious damage to Pokemon that resisted Outrage at +2, but with Fairy-types, that advantaged is lessened. Intimidate has some nice utility against a couple of prominent physical attackers such as Talonflame and Excadrill.

    In the usage tips section, you should probably point out that if Outrage is used to KO a Pokemon, Fairy-types can revenge KO you.
  5. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    Thanks PK and Halcyon, i have made Intimidate the primary slash and added those usage tips.

    Also, Shroomisaur there is no scarf set due to how poor Mence's moves are to be locked into. Outrage is nowhere near as good as it used to be, with Fairies and Aegislash around. Stone Edge is just bad as a sweeping move. I don't mind adding a scarf set if I can be convinced otherwise, but after reading the QC comments on the preview, scarf doesn't seem very likely at the moment
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,147
    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  7. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,298
    Mixed is probably one of the few I would even think about adding and it faces stiff competition against other Dragon-types (Dragonite, Kyurem-B, Mega Garchomp). To be fair even though Salamence doesn't have many options to bypass Fairy-types the sudden shift to a lot of mons being physically defensive kind of help make it viable. Eh, either way Band / Scarf is really dangerous to deploy this generation.
    Doughboy likes this.
  8. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    Thanks PK!

    Colonel M you're right, mixed is perhaps the most viable other option, but i don't think it's good enough to warrant its own set. OO material, imo
  9. bobdylanrocks

    bobdylanrocks

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    I would add the Focus Energy/Scope Lens set as a gimmick option. Hydreigon/Haxorus/Kingdra also learn Focus Energy as dragon-types. Kingdra however has Sniper to abuse that. You can get infinite Draco Meteor hits from Salamence with that. It can extremely viable with Moxie. I haven't tried it per se, because, you need to switch it in, but it can work perhaps as these options:

    Focus Energy
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Hydro Pump

    OR

    Focus Energy
    Draco Meteor
    Outrage
    Earthquake/Fire Blast

    OR even

    Focus Energy
    Draco Meteor
    Outrage/Earthquake
    Dragon Dance
  10. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    Scope Lens + Focus Energy is not going to get a set, it's purely a gimmick.
    Salamence struggles to be effective as it is - it can't afford to be trying to set up a Focus Energy. At least Kingdra has Sniper to abuse the crits. I don't think it even deserves a mention in OO either to be completely honest.
  11. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,303
    "A Lum Berry gives Mence insurance against status, allowing it to set up a DD on the likes of Rotom-W and Jellicent."

    It also breaks Outrage confusion if you use it.

    "Life Orb is a viable option for more attacking power, and ensures the KO on defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn after Stealth Rock."

    Mention with Fire Blast and the standard defensive versions of each if that's what you mean.

    This is actually well done, I can't think of anything else of importance.

    QC 2/3
  12. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    Thanks Fuzznip! I'll write this up sometime later today
  13. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    This is written and ready for a final QC stamp
  14. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,340
    I would mention Excadrill as a good partner, as it has generally better synergy with it than Starmie, and can still provide Rapid Spin.

    In the checks and counters section, I'd mention Bisharp in the priority section, as it can get a +2 boost from Intimidate and easily OHKO with Sucker Punch, but even without the boost it's still doing a lot.

    QC APPROVED 3/3
  15. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    Done! This is ready for GP
  16. sirndpt

    sirndpt
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,118
    gp 1/2
  17. GamingShawn

    GamingShawn

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    37
    Just a few nitpicks here

    I know this is true for the most part but considering that Deoxys-S is a part of the OU metagame atm (and does pack Ice Beam generally) this statement isn't entirely true.

    While it is obvious to most people who play competitively which of the Pokemon have which abilities, for the sake of the reader I think it should say "thanks to their respective abilities" or "Multiscale and Tough Claws, respectively."

    If we're working under the assumption that people who have just started playing competitive and haven't played Gen IV or V will be reading this analysis then I think it'd be better for you to elaborate a bit more on what MixMence is or just not address it as its shorthand name
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  18. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    352
    Much appreciated, thanks sirndpt! implemented

    Thanks, i've clarified these points
  19. Legitimate Username

    Legitimate Username We'll go to very distant lands...
    is an Artistis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2012
    Messages:
    425
    Amateur check. Not a lot of changes, but I found a few places where I thought there was some room for improvement.
    Changes (open)
    Overview
    ########
    While it was a serious force to be reckoned with in past generations, Salamence has since declined in effectiveness as Dragonite and Mega Charizard X generally outperform it as a setup sweeper, thanks to their respective abilities, Multiscale and Tough Claws. The introduction of the Fairy-type further hurt Salamence as it lacks the coverage moves to break through bulky Fairies. Furthermore, a weakness to Stealth Rock and base 100 Speedwhich falls just short of many threatening Pokemon in OUmean that Salamence can be revenge killed fairly easily even at +1, and cannot sweep teams as effectively as it once could.

    However, Salamence has a few redeeming qualities. It has access to the fantastic setup move Dragon Dance, which when backed by its high base Attack allows Salamence to hit extremely hard after a boost. Intimidate is an excellent ability that makes setting up a Dragon Dance boost slightly easier, while Moxie allows Salamence to plow through defensive teams. In addition, Salamence's decent Special Attack and access to Fire Blast prevents common physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress from walling it completely.


    Dragon Dance
    ########
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Naive

    Moves
    ========
    Dragon Dance is imperative on this set, as it provides a vital boost to Salamence's Attack and Speed,. This allowing allows it to outrun all unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, with the exception of Deoxys-S. Outrage is the preferred Dragon-type STAB move due to its high Base Power, but Dragon Claw is perfectly viable if being locked into Outrage is undesirable. However, The the decrease in power is significant, though. Steel-types that resist Salamence's Dragon-type attacks are targeted by Earthquake and Fire Blast. Earthquake hits the likes of Heatran, Aegislash, and Excadrill super effectively and is Salamence's best option against most Fairy-types. Fire Blast covers Steel-types that can survive a boosted Earthquake, such as Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Scizor, all of which can survive a boosted Earthquake. If desired, Fire Fang can be used for its 100% accuracy and useful burn and flinch chance. However, it fails to KO Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn even at +1, and so it is generally inferior to Fire Blast.


    Set Details
    ========
    A Naive nature ensure ensures maximum Speed without reducing the power of Fire Blast. Alternatively, if If Fire Fang is used instead, then a Jolly nature is ideal. The item choice comes down to personal preference. A Lum Berry gives Salamence insurance against status, allowing it to set up a Dragon Dance on the likes of Rotom-W and Jellicent, and can also cures cure the confusion induced by Outrage. On the other hand, a Life Orb provides greater attacking power and ensures that Salamence can KO defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock. Intimidate is preferred to potentially grant more opportunities to set up a Dragon Dance, as well as weaken opposing Pokemon in a pinch. Moxie is an option if the extra Attack boosts are appealing, however Salamence often cannot defeat its checks even at +1 or +2.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Salamence's role is to attempt a late game sweep, or to weaken opposing walls to allow a teammate to sweep more easily. If using Lum Berry, Salamence can safely set up Dragon Dance against opposing status inducers, as long as they are not Prankster Pokemon. Naturally, only set up in this situation if you are sure that Salamence can KO the status user on the next turn. Life Orb sets are more suited to wallbreaking, especially when facing more defensive teams. Be wary of your opponent baiting you to lock Salamence in with Outrage; it is wise to avoid immediately selecting Outrage if your opponent has a healthy Fairy- or Steel-type remaining. If Salamence is locked into Outrage and not confused, any Fairy-type can easily revenge kill it. Remember, with Intimidate, Salamence can provide useful team support in the event that it is less effective against the opposing team, or if it has been crippled by status. As such, it can occasionally be a good idea to preserve Salamence in order to weaken opposing physical sweepers.


    Team Options
    ========
    Salamence is best suited to offensive teams with partners that can weaken each others' checks. Lucario, Mega Charizard X, and Scizor appreciate the opposing physical walls being weakened or removed. Entry hazard support is very useful; for example, two layers of Spikes gives Lum Berry variants an 87% chance to KO 252/48 Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, making offensive Spikes stackers such as Deoxys-S and Greninja good partners. Similarly, Salamence's weakness to Stealth Rock means that Rapid Spin support is appreciated; Defog is usually not optimal as it removes all hazards, and Salamence really needs them on the opponent's side of the field. Excadrill is an excellent spinner that can also lay down Stealth Rock as well as threaten Fairy-types with Iron Head. Starmie is also a good Rapid Spin user, and as well as a nice check to Mamoswine.


    Other Options
    ########
    Salamence has several alternate options at its disposal. Stone Edge is useful to hit Togekiss super effectively, as it completely walls Salamence otherwise. A Choice Scarf set designed to sweep using Moxie boosts can potentially be effective, but Salamence has poor coverage moves to be locked into. A dedicated mixed attacker can take common physical walls by surprise with Draco Meteor, but this comes with a decrease in physical attacking power that makes wallbreaking difficult. Salamence's decent bulk and access to Roost makes a bulky support set possible, but this is outclassed by Dragonite and generally a waste of Salamence's offensive potential. Similarly, Tailwind can provide team support, but all of Salamence's moves are very important and leave it sorely lacking in coverage if one is removed.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Fairy-types**: Togekiss is an excellent counter, as it is immune to Salamence's Dragon-type STAB as well as Earthquake, and takes very little damage from Fire Blast. Azumarill can KO with Play Rough, or set up with Belly Drum on a locked-in Outrage.

    **Common Priority**: Revenge killing with priority is a good way to check Salamence; Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile can KO even a +1 speed Salamence. Scizor and Talonflame have strong neutral priority and can KO it with a bit of prior damage. Bisharp actually welcomes Intimidate thanks to Defiant giving it +2 in Attack, and can subsequently KO with Sucker Punch.

    **Physical Walls**: Physical walls such as Mega Blastoise and Hippowdon can take boosted hits and either KO Salamence or phaze Salamence it out. Similarly, bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Heatran can switch into Outrage easily, though although they must be wary of switching into Earthquake.

    **Stealth Rock**: Salamence loses 25% of its health when it switches into Stealth Rock, which limits its sweeping potential by allowing it to be revenge killed more easily. Hippowdon and Landorus-T can set up Stealth Rock, and can also comfortably wall Salamence.

    **Faster Choice Scarf Users** Strong Choice Scarf users which that can outrun Salamence at +1 and KO it make for good checks. Examples of these include Garchomp, Terrakion, and Latios.
    Copypaste (open)
    Overview
    ########
    While it was a serious force to be reckoned with in past generations, Salamence has since declined in effectiveness as Dragonite and Mega Charizard X generally outperform it as a setup sweeper, thanks to their respective abilities, Multiscale and Tough Claws. The introduction of the Fairy-type further hurt Salamence as it lacks the coverage moves to break through bulky Fairies. Furthermore, a weakness to Stealth Rock and base 100 Speed—which falls just short of many threatening Pokemon in OU—mean that Salamence can be revenge killed fairly easily even at +1, and cannot sweep teams as effectively as it once could.

    However, Salamence has a few redeeming qualities. It has access to the fantastic setup move Dragon Dance, which when backed by its high base Attack allows Salamence to hit extremely hard after a boost. Intimidate is an excellent ability that makes setting up a Dragon Dance boost slightly easier, while Moxie allows Salamence to plow through defensive teams. In addition, Salamence's decent Special Attack and access to Fire Blast prevents common physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress from walling it completely.


    Dragon Dance
    ########
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Naive

    Moves
    ========
    Dragon Dance is imperative on this set, as it provides a vital boost to Salamence's Attack and Speed,. This allows it to outrun all unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, with the exception of Deoxys-S. Outrage is the preferred Dragon-type STAB move due to its high Base Power, but Dragon Claw is perfectly viable if being locked into Outrage is undesirable. However, the decrease in power is significant. Steel-types that resist Salamence's Dragon-type attacks are targeted by Earthquake and Fire Blast. Earthquake hits the likes of Heatran, Aegislash, and Excadrill super effectively and is Salamence's best option against most Fairy-types. Fire Blast covers Steel-types that can survive a boosted Earthquake, such as Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Scizor. If desired, Fire Fang can be used for its 100% accuracy and useful burn and flinch chance. However, it fails to KO Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn even at +1, so it is generally inferior to Fire Blast.


    Set Details
    ========
    A Naive nature ensures maximum Speed without reducing the power of Fire Blast. If Fire Fang is used instead, then a Jolly nature is ideal. The item choice comes down to personal preference. A Lum Berry gives Salamence insurance against status, allowing it to set up a Dragon Dance on the likes of Rotom-W and Jellicent, and can also cure the confusion induced by Outrage. On the other hand, a Life Orb provides greater attacking power and ensures that Salamence can KO defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock. Intimidate is preferred to potentially grant more opportunities to set up a Dragon Dance, as well as weaken opposing Pokemon in a pinch. Moxie is an option if the extra Attack boosts are appealing, however Salamence often cannot defeat its checks even at +1 or +2.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Salamence's role is to attempt a late game sweep, or to weaken opposing walls to allow a teammate to sweep more easily. If using Lum Berry, Salamence can safely set up Dragon Dance against opposing status inducers, as long as they are not Prankster Pokemon. Naturally, only set up in this situation if you are sure that Salamence can KO the status user on the next turn. Life Orb sets are more suited to wallbreaking, especially when facing more defensive teams. Be wary of your opponent baiting you to lock Salamence in with Outrage; it is wise to avoid immediately selecting Outrage if your opponent has a healthy Fairy- or Steel-type remaining. If Salamence is locked into Outrage and not confused, any Fairy-type can easily revenge kill it. Remember, with Intimidate, Salamence can provide useful team support in the event that it is less effective against the opposing team, or if it has been crippled by status. As such, it can occasionally be a good idea to preserve Salamence in order to weaken opposing physical sweepers.


    Team Options
    ========
    Salamence is best suited to offensive teams with partners that can weaken each others' checks. Lucario, Mega Charizard X, and Scizor appreciate the opposing physical walls being weakened or removed. Entry hazard support is very useful; for example, two layers of Spikes gives Lum Berry variants an 87% chance to KO 252/48 Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, making offensive Spikes stackers such as Deoxys-S and Greninja good partners. Similarly, Salamence's weakness to Stealth Rock means that Rapid Spin support is appreciated; Defog is usually not optimal as it removes all hazards, and Salamence really needs them on the opponent's side of the field. Excadrill is an excellent spinner that can also lay down Stealth Rock as well as threaten Fairy-types with Iron Head. Starmie is also a good Rapid Spin user, as well as a nice check to Mamoswine.


    Other Options
    ########
    Salamence has several alternate options at its disposal. Stone Edge is useful to hit Togekiss super effectively, as it completely walls Salamence otherwise. A Choice Scarf set designed to sweep using Moxie boosts can potentially be effective, but Salamence has poor coverage moves to be locked into. A dedicated mixed attacker can take common physical walls by surprise with Draco Meteor, but this comes with a decrease in physical attacking power that makes wallbreaking difficult. Salamence's decent bulk and access to Roost makes a bulky support set possible, but this is outclassed by Dragonite and generally a waste of Salamence's offensive potential. Similarly, Tailwind can provide team support, but all of Salamence's moves are very important and leave it sorely lacking in coverage if one is removed.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Fairy-types**: Togekiss is an excellent counter, as it is immune to Salamence's Dragon-type STAB as well as Earthquake, and takes very little damage from Fire Blast. Azumarill can KO with Play Rough, or set up with Belly Drum on a locked-in Outrage.

    **Common Priority**: Revenge killing with priority is a good way to check Salamence; Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile can KO even a +1 speed Salamence. Scizor and Talonflame have strong neutral priority and can KO it with a bit of prior damage. Bisharp actually welcomes Intimidate thanks to Defiant giving it +2 in Attack, and can subsequently KO with Sucker Punch.

    **Physical Walls**: Physical walls such as Mega Blastoise and Hippowdon can take boosted hits and either KO Salamence or phaze it out. Similarly, bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Heatran can switch into Outrage easily, although they must be wary of switching into Earthquake.

    **Stealth Rock**: Salamence loses 25% of its health when it switches into Stealth Rock, which limits its sweeping potential by allowing it to be revenge killed more easily. Hippowdon and Landorus-T can set up Stealth Rock, and can also comfortably wall Salamence.

    **Faster Choice Scarf Users** Strong Choice Scarf users that can outrun Salamence at +1 and KO it make for good checks. Examples of these include Garchomp, Terrakion, and Latios.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  20. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,398
    amcheck

    I would hide my comments, but then they get ignored and some of these are really important so i'd prefer that didn't happen. If you'd prefer i did hide them, post and i might keep doing that.

    And ninja'd, read my comments either way

    amcheck (open)

    Overview
    ########
    While it was a serious force to be reckoned with in past generations, Salamence has since declined in effectiveness, as Dragonite and Mega Charizard X generally outperform it as a setup sweeper, thanks to their respective abilities, Multiscale and Tough Claws. The introduction of the Fairy-type further hurt Salamence, as it lacks the coverage moves to break through bulky Fairies. Furthermore, a weakness to Stealth Rock and base 100 Speed—which falls just short of many threatening Pokemon in OU—mean that Salamence can be revenge killed fairly easily even at +1, and cannot sweep teams as effectively as it once could.

    However, Salamence has a few redeeming qualities. It has access to the fantastic setup move Dragon Dance, which when backed by its high base Attack allows Salamence to hit extremely hard after a boost. Intimidate is an excellent ability that makes setting up a Dragon Dance boost slightly easier, while Moxie allows Salamence to plow through defensive teams. In addition, Salamence's decent Special Attack and access to Fire Blast prevents common physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress from walling it completely.


    Dragon Dance
    ########
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Naive

    Moves
    ========
    Dragon Dance is imperative on this set, as it provides a vital boost to Salamence's Attack and Speed, allowing it to outrun all unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, with the exception of Deoxys-S. Outrage is the preferred Dragon-type STAB move due to its high Base Power, but Dragon Claw is perfectly viable if being locked into Outrage is undesirable. The decrease in power is significant, though. Steel-types that resist Salamence's Dragon-type attacks are targeted by Earthquake and Fire Blast. Earthquake hits the likes of Heatran, Aegislash, and Excadrill super effectively and is Salamence's best option against most Fairy-types. Fire Blast covers Steel-types such as Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Scizor, all of which can survive a boosted Earthquake. If desired, Fire Fang can be used for its 10095% accuracy and useful burn and flinch chance. However, it fails to KO Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn even at +1, and so is generally inferior to Fire Blast.


    Set Details
    ========
    A Naive nature ensure maximum Speed without reducing the power of Fire Blast. Alternatively,; if Fire Fang is used, a Jolly nature is ideal. The item choice comes down to personal preference. A Lum Berry gives Salamence insurance against status, allowing it to set up a Dragon Dance on the likes of Rotom-W and Jellicent, and also cures confusion induced by Outrage. On the other hand, a Life Orb provides greater attacking power and ensures that Salamence can KO defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock. Intimidate is preferred to potentially grant more opportunities to set up a Dragon Dance, as well as weaken opposing Pokemon in a pinch. Moxie is an option if the extra Attack boosts are appealing, however, Salamence often cannot defeat its checks even at +1 or +2.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Salamence's role is to attempt a late game sweep, or to weaken opposing walls to allow a teammate to sweep more easily. If using Lum Berry, Salamence can safely set up Dragon Dance against opposing status inducers, as long as they are not Prankster Pokemon. Naturally, only set up in this situation if you are sure that Salamence can KO the status user on the next turn. Life Orb sets are more suited to wallbreaking, especially when facing more defensive teams. Be wary of your opponent baiting you to lock Salamence in with Outrage; it is wise to avoid immediately selecting Outrage if your opponent has a healthy Fairy- or Steel-type remaining. If Salamence is locked into Outrage and not confused, any Fairy-type can easily revenge kill it. Remember, with Intimidate, Salamence can provide useful team support in the event that it is less effective against the opposing team, or if it has been crippled by status. As such, it can occasionally be a good idea to preserve Salamence in order to weaken opposing physical sweepers.


    Team Options
    ========
    Salamence is best suited to offensive teams with partners that can weaken each others' checks. Lucario, Mega Charizard X, and Scizor appreciate the opposing physical walls being weakened or removed. Entry hazard support is very useful; for example, two layers of Spikes gives Lum Berry variants an 87% chance to KO 252/48 Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, making offensive Spikes stackers such as Deoxys-S and Greninja good partners. Similarly, Salamence's weakness to Stealth Rock means that Rapid Spin support is appreciated; Defog is usually not optimal as it removes all hazards, and Salamence really needs them on the opponent's side of the field. Excadrill is an excellent spinner that can also lay down Stealth Rock as well as threaten Fairy-types with Iron Head. Starmie is also a good Rapid Spin user, and a nice check to Mamoswine.


    Other Options
    ########
    Salamence has several alternate options at its disposal. Stone Edge is useful to hit Togekiss super effectively, as it completely walls Salamence otherwise. A Choice Scarf set designed to sweep using Moxie boosts can potentially be effective, but Salamence has poor coverage moves to be locked into. A dedicated mixed attacker can take common physical walls by surprise with Draco Meteor, but this comes with a decrease in physical attacking power that makes wallbreaking difficult. Salamence's decent bulk and access to Roost makes a bulky support set possible, but this is outclassed by Dragonite and generally a waste of Salamence's offensive potential. Similarly, Tailwind can provide team support, but all of Salamence's moves are very important and leave it sorely lacking in coverage if one is removed.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Fairy-types**: Togekiss is an excellent counter, as it is immune to Salamence's Dragon-type STAB as well as Earthquake, and takes very little from Fire Blast. Azumarill can KO with Play Rough, or set up with Belly Drum on a locked-in Outrage.

    **Common Priority**: Revenge killing with priority is a good way to check Salamence; Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile can KO even a +1 speed Salamence. Scizor and Talonflame have strong neutral priority and can KO it with a bit of prior damage. Bisharp actually welcomes Intimidate thanks to Defiant giving it +2 in Attack, and can subsequently KO with Sucker Punch.

    **Physical Walls**: Physical walls such as Mega Blastoise and Hippowdon can take boosted hits and KO Salamence or phaze Salamenceit out. Similarly, bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Heatran can switch into Outrage easily, though they must be wary of switching into Earthquake.

    **Stealth Rock**: Salamence loses 25% of its health when it switches into Stealth Rock, which limits its sweeping potential by allowing it to be revenge killed more easily. Hippowdon and Landorus-T can set up Stealth Rock and comfortably wall Salamence.

    **Faster Choice Scarf Users** Strong Choice Scarf users which can outrun Salamence at +1 and KO it make for good checks. Examples of these include, such as Garchomp, Terrakion, and Latios, make for good checks.


    Comments:

    'Salamence often cannot defeat its checks even at +1 or +2' (Set Details, in regards to moxie

    What the crap does this sentence mean? Seriously, this is a problem-this is the kind of sentence that would make me not use a Pokemon. Please, rewrite this and clarify what you meant to say.

    The actual reason to use Fire Fang is that it's boosted by DD and mence's EVs, although accuracy and flinch are nice (Fire blast has a 10% burn chance too), so you might want to mention that.

    Are you sure Moxie is for stall teams, as opposed to just bulkier teams in general? I would think stall can either stop you as you DD or not at all.

    The item choice pretty much always comes down to personal preference, except in the case it's linked to a move or something, so that's a super fluffy sentence.

    You could give a nod to other fairy-types, mainly Clefable (unaware especially) and Sylveon/Florges.

    Bisharp liking intimidate is a cool usage tip, but it liking intimidate isn't relevant as a counter, since that would imply you switch into it. I guess its sucker punch could still be relevant, but it gets trashed by your coverage moves anyhow, so i'm not sure if that's mention-worthy, plus you should probably explain that it gives it an overall +1 attack. Also, when you say 'scizor and Talonflame can KO with a bit of prior damage', is SR enough? Mention it either way, please.

    Hippowdon isn't only a special wall, although to be fair its usage in this gen says otherwise. Idk, consider specifying Phys.D hippo;you'd have to possibly separate it and landorus-t in the second mention of it, since writing 'physically defensive' in front of Hippowdon might make the reader think that only Phys.D landorus-t can wall Salamence. But then again, maybe they should be thinking that anyways.

    The way you explain its partners are kind of weird. You mean, partners whose checks are weakened by salamence and weaken salamence's checks?
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  21. Minus

    Minus Loading...
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    903
    Add Remove Comment
    GP Check (open)

    Overview
    ########
    While it was a serious force to be reckoned with in past generations, Salamence has since declined in effectiveness as others, like Dragonite and Mega Charizard X generally outperform it as a setup sweeper, thanks to their respective abilities, Multiscale and Tough Claws. The introduction of the Fairy-type further hurt Salamence as it lacks the coverage moves to break through bulky Fairies. Furthermore, a weakness to Stealth Rock and base 100 Speedwhich falls just short of many threatening Pokemon in OUmeans that Salamence can be revenge killed fairly easily, even at +1, and cannot sweep teams as effectively as it once could.

    However, Salamence has a few redeeming qualities. It has access to the fantastic setup move Dragon Dance, which when backed by its high base Attack, allows Salamence to hit extremely hard after a boost. Intimidate is an excellent ability that makes setting up a Dragon Dance boost slightly easier, while Moxie allows Salamence to plow through defensive teams. In addition, Salamence's decent Special Attack and access to Fire Blast prevents common physical walls such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress from [walling] it completely. Can you think of another word so you don't use "wall" twice?


    Dragon Dance
    ########
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Naive

    Moves
    ========
    Dragon Dance is imperative on this set, as it provides a vital boost to Salamence's Attack and Speed, allowing it to outrun all of the unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, with the exception of Deoxys-S. Outrage is the preferred Dragon-type STAB move due to its high Base Power, but Dragon Claw is perfectly viable if being locked into Outrage is undesirable. However, the The decrease in power is significant, though. Steel-types that resist Salamence's Dragon-type attacks are targeted by Earthquake and Fire Blast. Earthquake hits the likes of Heatran, Aegislash, and Excadrill super effectively and is Salamence's best option against most Fairy-types. Fire Blast covers Steel-types such as Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Scizor, all of which can survive a boosted Earthquake. If desired, Fire Fang can be used for its 10095% accuracy and useful burn and flinch chance. However, it fails to KO Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, even at +1, and so it is generally inferior to Fire Blast.


    Set Details
    ========
    A Naive nature ensures maximum Speed without reducing the power of Fire Blast. Alternatively, If Fire Fang is used instead, then a Jolly nature is ideal. The item choice comes down to personal preference. A Lum Berry gives Salamence insurance against status, allowing it to set up a Dragon Dance on the likes of Rotom-W and Jellicent, and can also cures confusion induced by Outrage. On the other hand, a Life Orb provides greater attacking power and ensures that Salamence can KO defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock. Intimidate is preferred as it can to potentially grant more opportunities to set up a Dragon Dance, as well as weaken opposing Pokemon in a pinch. Moxie is an option if the extra Attack boosts are appealing, however Salamence often cannot defeat its checks even at +1 or +2.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Salamence's role is to attempt a late game sweep, or to weaken opposing walls to allow a teammate to sweep more easily. If using Lum Berry, Salamence can safely set up Dragon Dance against opposing status inducers, as long as they are not Prankster Pokemon. Naturally, only set up in this situation if you are sure that Salamence can KO the status user on the next turn. Life Orb sets are more suited to wallbreaking, especially when facing more defensive teams. Be wary of your opponent baiting you to lock Salamence in with Outrage; it is wise to avoid immediately selecting Outrage if your opponent has a healthy Fairy- or Steel-type remaining. If Salamence is locked into Outrage and not confused, any Fairy-type can easily revenge kill it. Remember, with Intimidate, Salamence can provide useful team support in the event that it is less effective against the opposing team, or if it has been crippled by status. As such, it can occasionally be a good idea to preserve Salamence in order to weaken opposing physical sweepers.


    Team Options
    ========
    Salamence is best suited to offensive teams with partners that can weaken each others' checks. Lucario, Mega Charizard X, and Scizor appreciate the opposing physical walls being weakened or removed. Entry hazard support is very useful; for example, two layers of Spikes gives Lum Berry variants an 87% chance to KO 252/48 List the stats Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, making offensive Spikes stackers, such as Deoxys-S and Greninja good partners. Similarly, Salamence's weakness to Stealth Rock means that Rapid Spin support is appreciated; Defog is usually not optimal as it removes all hazards, and Salamence really needs them on the opponent's side of the field. Excadrill is an excellent spinner that can also lay down Stealth Rock as well as threaten Fairy-types with Iron Head. Starmie is also a good Rapid Spin user, as well as and a nice check to Mamoswine.


    Other Options
    ########
    Salamence has several alternate options at its disposal. Stone Edge is useful to hit Togekiss super effectively, as it completely walls Salamence otherwise. A Choice Scarf set designed to sweep using Moxie boosts can potentially be effective, but Salamence has poor coverage moves to be locked into. A dedicated mixed attacker set can take common physical walls by surprise with Draco Meteor, but this comes with a decrease in physical attacking power that makes wallbreaking difficult. Salamence's decent bulk and access to Roost makes a bulky support set possible, but this is outclassed by Dragonite and generally a waste of Salamence's offensive potential. Similarly, Tailwind can provide team support, but all of Salamence's moves are very important and leave it sorely lacking in coverage if one is removed.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Fairy-types**: Togekiss is an excellent counter, as it is immune to Salamence's Dragon-type STAB as well as Earthquake, and takes very little from Fire Blast. Azumarill can KO with Play Rough, or set up with Belly Drum on a locked-in Outrage.

    **Common Priority**: Revenge killing with priority is a good way to check Salamence; Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile can KO even a +1 speed Salamence. Scizor and Talonflame have strong neutral priority and can KO it with a bit of prior damage. Bisharp actually welcomes Intimidate thanks to Defiant giving it +2 in Attack, and can subsequently KO with Sucker Punch.

    **Physical Walls**: Physical walls such as Mega Blastoise and Hippowdon can take boosted hits and either KO or phaze Salamence out. Similarly, bulky Steel-types such as Aegislash and Heatran can switch into Outrage easily, though they must be wary of switching into Earthquake.

    **Stealth Rock**: Salamence loses 25% of its health when it switches into Stealth Rock, which limits its sweeping potential by allowing it to be revenge killed more easily making it easier to revenge kill. Hippowdon and Landorus-T can set up Stealth Rock and comfortably wall Salamence, making them worrisome.

    **Faster Choice Scarf Users** Strong Choice Scarf users that which can outrun Salamence at +1 and KO it make for good checks. Examples of these include, such as Garchomp, Terrakion, and Latios, make for good checks.

    Added bits and pieces from the Amchecks I liked and made my own corrections.
    GP 2/2
    [​IMG]
    Sturdynips
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  22. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,620
    Let's kindly stop with am checks for now until Sturdynips actually gets an opportunity to review and implement the suggested changes! Wouldn't want him to be overwhelmed.

    Also Wyvern56 you don't "got this," since you did not highlight any changes at all, nor did you explain the purpose of the post.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    Sturdynips likes this.
  23. Minus

    Minus Loading...
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    903
    Oh, I just put a placeholder and was editing things in to not get ninja'd, and then I decided to look at the amchecks in depth to see if I could stamp them. Sorry!

    Edit: AccidentalGreed, I put "Placeholder" at the top, is that ok? Or should I wait for Sturdynips? Or should I go ahead and include stuff in the Amcheck I like? Sorry about all of that :P
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  24. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,620
    Ahh. Proceed then, sorry about misunderstanding. I'd use the Placeholder method, but next time please specify what sorta post you're making in relation to GP so people like me don't set bad examples and yell at you, haha
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  25. Minus

    Minus Loading...
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    903
    Yeah, sure thing :P

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)