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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Aerrow, Sep 19, 2010.
whut was the original mixmence ev spread?
16 ATK / 240 SP.ATK / 252 Speed
That was gen 4 spread I believe.
I've been using gimmicky and surprising sets for sally and one set that manage to pull off alot of surprises especially mid-game for me is this set..
EVs: 34 ATK / 236 SP.ATK / 240 Speed
item: life orb
- Draco meteor
- Dragon dance
- hydro pump/fire blast/earthquake
the evs for speed gives it enough to out speed a scarf haxorus + hydreigon after a DD. You lose coverage with whatever move you pick for 4th slot but the simple fact people send in a wall after seeing D. meteor surprises them when you DD on switch; plus this set works as a wallbreaker, synergy with weather wars teams, and potentially able to sweep mid to endgame.
and yes I know other dragons like lati@s or Dnite can do better in some fields but hey this is a salamence thread lol.
So I actually haven't seen much of him so far, so how is he fairing in this metagame?
People blindly use Dragonite over him. I'm even beginning to see random DD+Outrage+Fire Punch+Extremespeed LO Dragonites, when in fact, the standard DD Mence outclasses Dragonite as an offensive DDer. Hell, I've even seen a few MixNites, which is massively outclassed by MixMence. I think a lot of it has to do with the scrub factor. People look at usage stats and automatically assume that Dragonite>Salamence, and toss on a Dragonite when in fact Salamence is a better choice for their team. DD Mence still remains one of the best offensive pokemon in the game. Nothing still can switch into a MixMence. In fact, because of Intimidate, Salamence is a better answer to sun teams than that CBNite people are using to check sun teams. Yes, Dragonite can run the Bulky Dancer and CB sets better, but I have no clue why its used 3 times as much. Absolutely baffling.
People are still loving Multiscale; bulky DD set is all but guaranteed 1-2 DDs.
Intimidate can often get you those same 1-2 DDs. The only reason to use Dragonite is because Roost+MultiScale on the Bulky Dancer can often get more than 2 DDs. As an offensive DDer. Dragonite is completely outclassed by Salamence.
Lowering attack one stage does not get the same 1-2 DDs that having Multiscale and a recovery move would get. Like it or not, Dragonite is now very bulky and can pull off some moves better than Salamence can. Salamence may outclass Dragonite as an offensive DDer, but Dragonite outclasses when it comes to tanking and being a bulky DDer.
Salamence should be used more, simple as.
If Stealth Rock is on Dragonite's side of the feild, which, as an assumed battle condition, should always be... well... assumed, Multi-Scale is useless. You get NO BENIFIT.
However, if SR is on Salamence's side of the feild, you still get use from Intimidate.
Mence dosen't NEED to set up a DD to be a threat. Mence has 20 more Base Speed, and a significantly higher Sp.Atk.
Mence dosen't NEED Roost.
Any Dragonite running 3 or more attacks should be a Salamence. Simple as that. Unless one of those attacks is Dragon Tail.
Roost + 3 Attacks is easy to handle, because a lot of the teir outspeeds Dragonite. It might get one KO, but will lose Multi-Scale as it does so, and then be revenged, or forced out, only to take more passive damage and get further from Multi-Scale.
DD + 3 Attacks is horribly outclassed by Salamence. Especially with SR on the feild.
CB is done better by Haxorus and Salamence, due to higher power and speed, respecitivly. Especially as any form of passive damage means CB loses the reason you'd use it in the first place, Multi-Scale. Switching in with SR or Sand up means you have an inferior Dragon.
Unless you're using it for Extremespeed, of course.
All MixNites should be MixMence. Especially with less Blissey to Superpower. The higher Sp.Atk and Speed makes this a no-brainer, as well as the hit and run nature of Mix sets.
The only sets Dragonite does outright better is Roost + DD sets which lack coverage, and Dragon Tail sets. Some freaky StatusNite as well, but... who uses Dragonite for Thunder Wave?
Mence's decline is probobly partially because of Excadrill outspeeding in the Sand and OHKO'ing to revenge kill, Scizor still being popular, and because people see Multi Scale and think Dragonite is better. Which its not.
Dragonite, IMO, suffers the same overhype as Terrakion used to. Remember the Smogcast where they said Terrakion kills everything? They seemed to forget how hard it is to set it up, get it in, and keep it alive, seeing as it's weak to 75% of the metagame's attacks, and all status stops it dead.
I wish Salamence got Hurricane like Dragonite.
Are you seriously saying Intimidate can work as effectively as Multiscale? Sounds like you're the fan boy here. I'm pretty sure there are a lot more special Ice attacks running around than physical ones. Isn't Ice Beam and HP Ice highly coveted on most sets that can run them?
I haven't seen a Salamence in a long time, and most of the ones I saw were a Wish variant. That's like the only advantage it has over Dragonite, which I think is a pretty bad reason to use one. I've faced all kinds of Salamence, they all don't do that well. You can say they were bad players all you want.
Bottom line is neither of them show up that much in battles anymore, because they are just too easy to kill.
The point is that Salamence has greater power and speed compared to Dragonite.
Besides, the point is simple: if you want longevity, go with Dragonite. If you want something that can damage a shitload of stuff immediately, Salamence is the man.
OK, saying that a pokemon within the Top 10 dosen't show up anymore shows how much of an idiot you are.
Saying that Wish is the only advantage that Salamence has over Dragonite is outright moronic. Especially when Wishmence is never used anyway. Intimidate works even if Mence switches into to Stealth Rock. Not to mention he has 100 Base Speed, and 110 Sp.Atk. Mence still runs Mixed sets better than Dragonite, or any OU Dragon-type for that matter.
95/80/80 is hardly what you call frail too. Mence is usually seen as frail due to SR + LO + Sand... which applies to Dragonite too.
And switching either Dragonite or Mence into something with an Ice attack is stupid. Ice attacks are actually rarer in this generation than last, because of Rain, even more Water types. Not to mention Tyranitar loving the free switch in, same with Scizor, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn.
Both Multi-Scale and Intimidate are situational. However, Intimidate cannot be rendered useless by your foes actions as easily, they have to predict Mence, and switch in a Special Atacker. Multi-Scale just needs them to either attack on the switch, use Will-O/Toxic, or set up Rocks to prevent. Not difficult.
Hell, Taunt screws Multi-Scale over.
People use Dragonite because the bulky DD almost guarantees a win in a lot of conditions.
Salamence is better at outright offence and mixed sets but that's like saying a Ford Mondeo is better than a Fiat Picanto when there's a freaking M1 Abrams sitting right there. The fact is, bulky DD offers people an easy win in more situations than any set Salamence can use; while CB Espeed is a useful set to support the team, something that CB Salamence is not because it lacks priority.
Hey guys, debating is one thing but no need to devolve into name-calling. Dragonite is bulkier and more popular, period. It doesn't change the fact that nothing can come in on MixMence and Dragonite can wall/get more DD's (which it needs more). This is a Salamence thread so I don't know why you're arguing Dragonite when it's obvious who the better offensive threat is and who runs defense better. Unless you have an Excadrill or a fast scarfer, one DD still means it's game over with Mence, Dragonite or other wise so let's discuss the topic, Salamence.
So far it's one of a few pokemon who still wreck shop with the same set in two Gens. MixMence punches holes in just about everything, never tried Specs (I'm a fan of switching moves without switching out but it has definitely has it's uses), and I will say Intimidate's an amazing ability for Mence. Come in on a physical move and Mence laughs it off pretty often (weakened physical attacker vs MixMence means a solid 2hko on pretty much the whole tier).
And quick question, who uses Mence with Roost? I've tried, don't think I did very well lol, but I like that it can get the final Outrage/Draco Meteor that let's Mence drop a flaming nuke before he dies.
My moveset was Roost/EQ/Fire Blast/Outrage or Dragon Claw. Never really got the EV's down, used BulkyGyarados' once, kinda liked it. Suggestions?
Btw, one final Public Service Announcement, stop thinking Gliscor and Skarm mix well on the same team, or use them to try and wall Salamence. MixMence destroys it (does a number to JelliFerro and Skarmbliss if iirc) and anyone with a Salamence should Fire Blast Gliscors, it has the Sp D of a 5 year old.
We're throwing around insults now? That's cool.
Your original post pretty much confirmed your mouth is firmly wrapped around Salamence's nuts. You ever stop to wonder why Dragonite gets used more over Salamence? Yes, many people are just doing it because of the usage, but how did that high usage come about? There had to be start. You want to start pointing fingers at the chart then fine, why is your beloved Salamence in such a low position? Are you saying that many battlers are dumb for using Dragonite over Salamence? They each have their own advantages, but Dragonites are just overall better.
I haven't seen much of either one in awhile. Even when I do, they are easy to take down.
I've run a Lum Berry DDnite with ExtremeSpeed/Fire Punch/Dragon Claw as a suicide lead. Easily gets 1-2 DD up then proceed to punch holes in the other team. Unless they have a perfect anti Dragonite core to switch around with or a really good counter, their team will be severely weakened by the time Dragonite falls.
Salamence is a menace to stall, Dragonite is much less of one, so thats one good reason to use Salamence over Dragonite.
Even if Salamence performs that role better than Dragonite, people will still go for Dragonite instead because he's more ubiquitous on the ladder and will give people a lot more of a guessing game as to what he's running. Banking on that guessing game can net you an extra DD, and turn the tide in your favor.
That's the only reason to use d-nite over mence IMO, meru, but the problem is that after that you're sort of boned.You have to lead with him to disguise his item too, and i usually just slack off in his face with hippo. If he dd's, i roar.
Not to mention, Mixmence and DDmence both exist, so that's unpredictable right there.
I disagree completely. You should never EVER assume what set Salamence is running. You guess DD Mence and have your physical wall exterminated by a Draco Meteor. You guess a MixMence and get DD'd on in the face, which could often mean game over. Furthermore, its not like Salamence is limited to its two flagship sets either, CB, Specs, and Wishmence, while rare, still exist.
Noone ever said people who use Dragonite over Salamence are dumb. The thing is, the two Pokemon have very different niches now, because Dragonite severely outclasses Salamence in terms of bulky sets, and Salamence severely outclasses Dragonite in terms of all out offense sets. Also, notice how ever since usage stats were introduced, Dragonite has been going up and Salamence down. While this is partially due to metagame shifts, its also partly due to new players who have Salamence on their team, see that Dragonite is used more, and switch to Dragonite in situations where Salamence is a better fit for their team. Is Dragonite better suited to the current metagame? Yes. Does it outclass Salamence? No. Should people be running Dragonites with 3 or more attacks? No. Because Salamence will probably be able to do it better. Extremespeed doesn't actually give offensive DDNite an advantage over Salamence, because Salamence doesn't need that priority move, it outspeeds so many pokemon after a DD anyways.
i agree completly, Salamence is so threatening cause you dont know which set it is running until its to late. you can end up facing a specs when you think its DD and then one of your pokes is down.
That's why I run Salamence on my wifi teams. MixMence is still a beast, DD is scary as heck, Specs kills you if you're not prepared, and it has enough firepower to mix up the coverage moves and still wreck shop.
The fact of the matter is, Salamence plays a much riskier game than Dragonite. All of Mence's best sets require the use of Life Orb, whereas Dragonite's require Leftovers or Lum. Dragonite's Extremespeed also gives you some options on the revenge, where Mence would have to rely on his being 20 base speed faster (sometimes, he's not even using it because he's running mixed), yet still slower than some of the important things he'd want to be able to take on. Namely Landorus. Man, Landorus pisses me off.
But that's beside the point. I can see why Dragonite is being more used than Salamence now. Unfortunately, that comes at the price of Salamence looking like a chump in the usage statistics. We know how good he is, and we can foam at the mouth all day about it, but at the end of the day, Dragonite has more options and fits on more teams.
First MixMence... Now DDMoxieMixMence, Yay fun.
SJCrew said it perfectly guys. D-Nite has 2 main roles: bulky DD and parashuffling. Of these two roles, the first is nearly a guaranteed win late-game and parashuffle D-Nite completely outclasses Mence. THe one big advantage Mence has is its unpredictability; once they figure out the set, Mence's effectiveness is diminished greatly.
On the note of niches and bulk, I've seen people state that Bulky DD Mence is the best set to run. Which...honestly, it's a fact that it is a horrible option for mence. Mence is not frail but this is a set where it's just outclassed. Seriously, that's DD's niche, and people try to justify it by saying Intimidate (I'm not referring to this thread, even though I've seen the argument of intimidate vs. multiscale in here)and not even mentioning Roost.
Seriously, I think we can all agree that Mence is not meant to be a Bulky DDer. It can work, but at that point, why not use Dnite? Intimidate only works each switch in while Multiscale can be utilized after switching in.
And indeed, mence is definitely suited for more offensive roles. I wouldn't say in terms of mixed sets, that either one is outclassed, since each one has its perks. Superpower means DNite should break stall and its bulk helps with that, while Mence's superior special attack and speed means it should just punch holes.
If you run 3 attacks on a Dnite set, unless it packs Roost, just switch it out for Mence. Roost isn't a bad option on Mence though. Extremespeed helps with dealing with being revenge killed and is nice on CB sets. But Mence is honestly much better suited for purely offensive roles.
In all, I'll say this: both dragons are not outclassed and indeed, have their niches. It just depends on your team. A balanced team could likely utilize either dragon, while all out offensive teams would like Mence, and defensive teams would like Dnite.