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Sawsbuck (QC 3/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by col49, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. col49

    col49 what.
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    Well, it's the 8th, and I'm still awake for one reason or another, so I might as well toss this up for QC & such to take a look at whenever possible :)


    [Overview]
    • Arguably the best offensive Grass-type in the tier, with a solid Base 100 Attack and 95 Speed.
    • Possesses dual STAB that is virtually unresisted in the metagame.
    • Access to boosting moves such as Swords Dance and Agility that allow it to effectively utilize it's offensive prowess.
    • Sap Sipper makes Sawsbuck virtually immune to sleep, with the most common sleep moves in Sleep Powder and Spore being converted into +1 Attack boosts.
    • However, Sawsbuck does face problems overcoming some fairly common defensive Pokemon such as Amoongus, Tangela, and Weezing without proper support.
    • More notably, Sawsbuck is highly susceptible to revenge-killing, with his mediocre 80 / 70 / 70 defenses being unable to stand up to common priority from Absol, Gurdurr, and Skunktank, and even more common faster threats such as Swellow, Cincinno, Charizard, and a plethora of Choice Scarf users.
    • Faces competition from the bulkier Leafeon, who finds more opportunities to set up, though it lacks a strong secondary STAB and viable coverage.
    • Notwithstanding, one of the best physical sweepers in the metagame.

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Return
    move 3: Horn Leech
    move 4: Nature Power / Substitute
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Sap Sipper
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Sawsbuck's most effective set
    • Return and Horn Leech provide Sawsbuck with powerful dual STAB moves, with the latter recovering damage lost from Life Orb recoil, entry hazards, and so on.
    • While not seeing much use, Nature Power grants Sawsbuck the ability to hit Steel-types such as Probopass and Bastiodon hard, while having the distinct benefit of dodging Sucker Punch.
    • Substitute can be used to allow Sawsbuck to beat Misdreavus easily, as well as preventing simple revenge-killing from the likes of all but Cincinno.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The given EV spread grants Sawsbuck maximum offensive presence, as well as the ability to speed tie with Haunter and opposing Sawsbuck (being the most noteworthy examples).
    • Life Orb is often preferable in it's ability to net a handful of choice 0/2HKO's, though Leftovers offer Sawsbuck more leniency in setting up while also offering Substitute recovery outside of Horn Leech
    • Double-Edge serves as a viable Normal-type STAB move for Sawsbuck, though it's recoil in conjunction with Life Orb recoil naturally lends itself to being worn down rather quickly.
    • Baton Pass can bypass Sucker Punch not unlike Nature Power, and can effectively allow Sawsbuck to maintain momentum while passing any potential boosts obtained through Swords Dance or Sap Sipper
    • Sunny Day can be used in the fourth slot (with Chlorophyll, obviously) to effectively utilize Sawsbuck's dual STAB in a “Double Dance” set, while also possibly supporting teammates, but it should be noted that it will still encounter issues with priority.
    • Jump Kick offers Sawsbuck a method of hitting Steel-types, while offering a powerful attack to punish Normal-type switch-in's with.
    • Wild Charge can be used to hit Acrobatics Drifblim, a generally accepted offensive counter to Sawsbuck, for SE damage, while also hitting Pokemon such as Haunter for neutral damage.
    • Megahorn can be used to hit Tangela hard, who can otherwise buffer Sawsbuck's attacks and hit him back with Hidden Power for a 2HKO.
    • Magnet Pull Probopass makes for an excellent partner to Sawsbuck, providing a method of beating opposing Steel-types, a check to Cincinno / Swellow / non-HP Ground Haunter, and a user of Stealth Rock. However, it should be noted that this does leave a rather noticeable weakness to Fighting-types, and should be taken into account whilst building a team.
    • Garbodor turns Fighting-types like Sawk and Gurdurr into opportunities to set up free layers of Spikes, which in turn aid Sawsbuck whilst sweeping, as well as luring Ground-type attacks for it to switch into fairly safely.
    • Choice Scarf Rotom-S is capable of shaking off Fighting-, Bug-, and Flying-type attacks aimed at Sawsbuck, threatens the majority of Sawsbuck's offensive checks and counters, and in turn lures Ground-types that it can take advantage of.

    [SET]
    name: All Out Attacker
    move 1: Double-Edge / Return
    move 2: Horn Leech
    move 3: Nature Power
    move 4: Wild Charge / Megahorn
    item: Life Orb / Choice Band
    ability: Sap Sipper
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • This set abandons the pretense of Swords Dance and simply focuses on breaking down anything and everything as immediately as possible.
    • Double-Edge is the strongest attack in Sawsbuck's arsenal, and can manhandle almost anything switching into it. Return can be used, though it loses a bunch of notable KO's.
    • Horn Leech provides a powerful secondary STAB move that allows Sawsbuck to hit Rock-types hard and recover lost HP (also CB Horn Leech always 2HKO's the bulkiest of Alomomola after SR!).
    • Nature Power allows Sawsbuck to surpass Sucker Punch users and Steel-types alike.
    • Wild Charge allows Sawsbuck to hit Drifblim, his best offensive counter, hard, while also allowing him to OHKO incoming Haunter.
    • Megahorn, while being situational, allows Sawsbuck a very solid shot at 2HKOing Tangela after SR, who can otherwise shrug off your attacks fairly well.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The given EV spread grants Sawsbuck maximum offensive presence, as well as the ability to speed tie with Haunter and opposing Sawsbuck (being the most noteworthy examples).
    • Choice Band is valuable in it's ability to overcome defensive Pokemon such Weezing and Tangela (while also reducing recoil), though Life Orb is less prediction-heavy and allows you to switch moves, which is neat against teams lacking a sturdy physical wall.
    • Other move options include Jump Kick (coverage v.Steel-types+SE hit on Normal-types) and Baton Pass (scouting switches+passing Sap Sipper boosts)
    • Garbodor and Probopass continue to serve Sawsbuck well, turning offensive checks to Sawsbuck that try to revenge-kill him (Cincinno, Swellow, CS Sawk, Gurdurr, etc.) into set-up bait to set up supportive entry hazards.
    • Pokemon such as Bulk Up Gurdurr make solid partners, being able to punch out Cincinno and such with Mach Punch, as well as appreciating Sawsbuck's ability to lure and KO walls such Amoongus and Weezing.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Double-Edge
    move 2: Horn Leech
    move 3: Nature Power
    move 4: Baton Pass
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Sap Sipper
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Equipped with a Choice Scarf, Sawsbuck makes a potent revenge-killer with the capacity to overcome most standard Choice Scarf users.
    • Double-Edge and Horn Leech offer Sawsbuck powerful dual STAB to attack with.
    • Nature Power provides a method of hitting Probopass, as well as overcoming Sucker Punch users, who continue to "outspeed" it.
    • Baton Pass allows Sawsbuck to maintain momentum, while passing any Sap Sipper Boosts.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EV spread allows Sawsbuck to hit as hard and fast as possible, with a Jolly nature being almost mandatory in it's a ability to outpace CS Sawk.
    • Other attacking options include Jump Kick and Wild Charge, each for reasons stated twice prior
    • As Sawsbuck still remains vulnerable to Gurdurr's Mach Punch, but loses a fair deal of immediate power, Garbodor becomes even more important than before, it's Spike support being necessary for Sawsbuck to pressure the bulkier walls of the tier.
    • Powerful attackers such as Choice Band Emboar and very much appreciated in their ability to break down walls like Tangela and Amoongus, while also being able to switch into Will-O-Wisp's aimed at Sawsbuck.

    [Other Options]
    • Dedicated Baton Pass
    • Leech Seed
    • Aromatherapy
    • Synthesis
    • Thunder Wave

    [Checks & Counters]
    • If anything, carefully played Ghost-types, most notably Misdreavus and and Haunter, are the best answer to Sawsbuck, though they need to switch in with tact, and each falls to something or another (Misdreavus struggles with Lum Berry / Substitute+SD, Haunter is frail and can’t switch in well).
    • Bulkier physical walls such as Amoongus, Tangela, and Weezing can sponge hits from Sawsbuck fairly well, and either hinder him with status or simply hit it hard with a respective SE attack.
    • Armaldo, Golbat, and Piloswine has the capabilities to switch in fairly safely to Sawsbuck's attack and threaten him with their STAB attacks
    • Shelgon is capable of shrugging off most of Sawsbuck's attacks and setting up on him fairly well.
    • Faster Pokemon can take advantage of Sawsbuck’s mediocre bulk and KO him with any given powerful attack.
    • Support Armaldo takes very little from Sawsbuck's usual atttacks, and can threaten him with a STAB X-Scissor.
    • Acrobatics Drifblim in particular remains the best offensively oriented Sawsbuck answer, resisting his STAB and conventional coverage options and KOing him with Acrobatics (though Wild Charge takes care of him fairly easily).
    • Priority attacks from Pokemon such as Gurdurr can “outspeed” Sawsbuck and take him out with relative ease.
  2. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Sawsbuck is a really interesting pokemon. It's a shame it isnt used more, it is one of the most fun Pokemon to play with. There are some things I think should be added to this skeleton though.

    [Swords Dance set]
    The last slot is something that is really debatable. I don't think I've ever actually seen a Sawsbuck Baton Pass before. Although that might just be bad luck on my part. There are a lot of moves that can viably be run in the last slot, including but not limited too: Substitute / Megahorn / Wild Charge / Jump Kick. Out of those moves I believe Substitute deserves a special mention. Since one of the problems with Sawsbuck is set-up opportunities. For this I recommend making Leftovers an item slash over Lum Berry, and adding Substitute as the secondary slash over Baton Pass. If anyone disagrees with me on this feel free to discuss it with me.

    For AC I would like to see mentions of Megahorn, Baton Pass and Wild Charge. Megahorn gives Sawsbuck the ability to hit grass types such as Tangela a lot harder. Though with the increase of Amoonguss it doesn't warrant a slash at this time. Baton Pass should be mentioned because it is a very good way to just pass things along when a stop comes in. And Wild Charge allows Sawsbuck to defeat arguably its best check on offensive teams: Acrobatics Unburden Drifblim. Beating that Drifblim is very important, but not important enough for a slash so an AC should suffice.


    [Choice Set]
    I agree that the two sets play very differently and I support them being broken up for this purpose, so assuming they are broken up I'll address each separately.

    [Choice Band]
    Slash Chlorophyll with Sap Sipper, since it allows you to effectively dominate sun teams(the only faster Chlorophyll mon is Jumpluff afaik). So for that set I would make Chlorophyll the primary ability slash, since you shouldn't be switching into that many grass moves to begin with, since even after switching in most grass types beat you 1v1. Make AC mentions of Wild Charge since any defensive Drifblim walks all over this set, and Wild Charge fixes that.

    [Choice Scarf]
    Sap Sipper should be the main ability here, since you need all the power you can get. I think Return should be removed and added to AC since it is really weak with just a choice scarf. Wild Charge in AC like usual.

    [Other Options]
    Remove Wild Charge since I added it to the sets.
    Add Leech Seed I guess, there are better users but Sawsbuck isn't a bad one. I've played SubSeed Sawsbuck and it can force switches and hit things with its stab moves. Other than that it looks good.

    [Checks And Counters]
    Support Armaldo is a nice stop to Sawsbuck and should be mentioned. Tangela is mentioned in the overview but not here, with a Hidden Power is destroys Sawsbuck. Golbat can tank anything and Brave Bird in return. Drifblim should get a special mention for taking advantage of Sawsbuck without Wild Charge. I'd remove Absol from the priority mention because of Nature Power, keep Gurdurr though. I'll probably come up with some more to put here later.

    [Unreleased]
    Serence Grace is out according to pstats so this section should be removed.
  3. col49

    col49 what.
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    Alrighty, I do believe I covered everything there. I personally usually ran BP, though I have run Sub and the merit is definitely there (though that was pre-Skill Link Cincinno, so I don't know how that will fare). I felt the AC would get a little cluttered with all the possible little "hit 1 'mon" moves and such, but I can understand their need to be emphasized. Moved Serene Grace over to OO, simply because it almost always seems like a good option on paper, and I feel as though it should be explained why it's inferior to it's other abilities. As for splitting up the Choice sets, I need to get some sleep (turns out it's 3 am .-.), but I'll be sure to get it done by the end of the day so we can keep this process moving as quickly as possible.
  4. Django

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    "Choice Scarf Rotom-F is capable of shaking off Fighting-"

    I think you meant something else.

    Add Golbat to Checks and Counters. It completely counters Sawsbuck without Stealth Rock up, and can take anything but a LO boosted +2 Double-Edge with Rocks up.

    The Swords Dance set and Overview look fine. I also support breaking up the Choice sets, and I wuld even question adding a Scarf set. I have personally never seen it used, and can't see it being too effective, although it does get the jump on some pretty common scarfers. It just seems a bit too weak without a Choice Band or Swords Dance boost to be effective.

    I'll comment more when the other sets are done.
  5. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    @django the scarf set is actually useful this meta, especially if you can lure Cinccino into using Bullet Seed. It's not the best set by any means but is worthy imo.

    Also how about instead of a Choice Band set it is called All Out attacker and has Life Orb as a slash? It was discussd on IRC and is a good set
  6. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    • Mention Leafeon as competition, especially for "bulkier setting-up" and Substitute.
    • Mention Shelgon and Piloswine in AC. Physically defensive Piloswine can tank even +2 Life Orb Horn Leech and kill off bambi with Icicle Spear / Ice Shard. Shelgon takes little from Sawsbuck's attacks and can boost up or hit it with an Outrage.
    • Remove Serene Grace from OO. Sawsbuck has nothing good to abuse it with and Sap Sipper is infinitely superior to Serene Grace because of that.
    • Mention that Sawsbuck is a decent switch-in to sleep inducers once they're weakened because it's immune to Sleep Powder / Spore.

    Disagreeing with Raseri that Chloro should be slashed in with Sap Sipper in the CB set. It's so nice to switch into 70% Amoonguss' Spore's and then kill it off with Double-Edge. Sun is not common enough to warrant Chloro > Sap Sipper.

    All-out attacker Sawsbuck is fine with me as well as creating a separate Choice Scarf set.
  7. col49

    col49 what.
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    Alrighty, I do believe I've covered everything.

    @Django
    -Supposed to be Rotom-S, whoops x_x
    -Could've sworn I added in Golbat, fixed

    @Raseri
    -Went with classifying it as an All-Out Attacker
    -DTC argues for Sap Sipper, so atm I'm keeping Sap Sipper as the main slash for the All Out Attacker set, and keeping a slash for Chlorophyll and using the AC to mention Sunny Day, and thusly his use on Sun teams (I felt it unneeded to mention in the Swords Dance set, as without perma-sun, Sawsbuck is better off spending his time attacking most of the time)

    @DTC
    -Added mentions of Leafeon, and will stress the differences between the two in writing, mainly in the Swords Dance set
    -Added Shelgon+Pilo to C&C, they are checking and/or countering his other sets as well, so yeah
    -Added mentions of Sap Sipper beating sleep, though it's a bit risky since most Sleep users have Poison-type STAB or some kind of SE coverage move for him


    Aside from this, I split up the two sets as well. I felt Double-Edge invaluable to his ability as a wall-breaker, having a much better shot at 2HKOing stuff like Weezing, Golbat, Amoongus, and so on, thus a primary slash. Double-Edge is basically mandatory for CS as it needs the extra power imo. I'm keeping BP as the final slash unless someone feels Jump Kick to be particularly important, as Megahorn is way too weak, not even necessarily 3HKOing standard Tangela :/
  8. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    So Zebraiken and I were talking about this on IRC and we both think that CB should not be a set and LO should be the main slash. It basically boils down to Sawsbuck having great coverage and LO giving it the flexibility to capitalize on that coverage while CB doesn't really accomplish that. I really don't think CB is letting it get any KO's that LO wouldn't already get or come close to getting.

    Secondly we both think that Wild Charge should go over Megahorn on the All out attacker set(LO). Megahorn not even 2hkoing Tangela is pretty sad and it really doesn't hit anything else. DE hits it pretty hard anyways and Wild Charge lets him bypass one of his biggest offensive checks in NU so I think that has enough merit to make Wild Charge the first slash.

    Also I don't even think Chloro should be slashed on the All out attacker set tbh. Things like Amoonguss and Tangela are too popular for Chloro to be considered an option. I would just give it a mention and leave it at that.
  9. col49

    col49 what.
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    Ayte, sounds fine by me, edited and such
  10. Friar

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    I guess a fourth set might seem like overkill or making Sawsbuck out to be more versatile than it really is, but dedicated Baton Pass is really good, and in my opinion not OO material.

    Sawsbuck @ Leftovers
    Jolly / Sap Sipper
    4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
    -Baton Pass
    -Substitute / Swords Dance
    -Horn Leech / Swords Dance
    -Return

    Tangela, Weezing, Amoonguss, and Ghosts are very exploitable. These are the pokemon likely to be switching into Sawsbuck because frailer checks like Cinccino and Gurdurr can't afford mispredicting and eating a STAB move coming in. Then you pass your Sub. Looking at the types of moves likely to be aimed at Sawsbuck, passing to Fire, Dragon, Ghost, Flying, Steel, Bug, or Poison types could all probably keep the sub up and then boost or just start smacking things. There are many possible partners, but an Emboar, Klang, or a DD Dragon-type behind a Sub puts the opponent in a tough situation. (Do Sap Sipper boosts pass? If they do that makes this thing even more dangerous)

    It works for Mienshao and it works for Sawsbuck
  11. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Well if CB is being removed from the set I think Return should at least be the main set. LO Double Edge is just suicide.

    And in the transition from LO Return to CB Double Edge you do lose some KO's such as:

    Specs Altaria after Stealth Rock
    Rotom-S
    Ninjask lol
    Samurott with Horn Leech!

    I believe that CB set is a capable wall breaker, ive played with it a lot and the ability to use double edge without killing yourself in two turns is huge. Even if it is a secondary slash I do believe that it should be in the set
  12. shnen

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    while I like the CB set, if we're agreed on it being removed then
    QC Approved 1/3
  13. col49

    col49 what.
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    Oh, thanks for the check shnen, much obliged. Yeah, I dunno, I'm kind of a fan of CB myself, but people seem rather split on it's inclusion :/ Personally, I feel as though it should get a secondary slash minimum. As Raseri points out, it does net a couple pretty notable KO's (I should probably mention that CB has something like a 90% chance to 2HKO Tangela w/Megahorn after SR too!), and of the lack of recoil, while being somewhat minor in some ways, is certainly something worth distinguishing (especially in tandem w/Double-Edge). So would it be fine with QC if Choice Band remains a second slash, and it is simply stressed in AC the individual benefits of each (and discourage running Double-Edge w/LO, as it will 2HKO you)?
  14. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Add a CB Slash to all out attacker and QC Approved 2/3
  15. col49

    col49 what.
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    Will do, thank ya kindly
  16. Django

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    QC Approved 3/3
  17. col49

    col49 what.
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    Alrighty, cool, I'll get to learning how to write asap
  18. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    This is being given to someone who can get it written and on-site ASAP.

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