Scald

People have been complaining about Scald since BW2 and, quite frankly, it was never considered a serious problem then. People have also been complaining about Stealth Rock since DPP, and quite frankly, both of these potential issues are not completely difficult to deal with. While these moves exert teambuilding constraints, literally any form of indirect of indirect damage or status effects are going to exert teambuilding constraints. This thread needs to die, learn to adapt to these threats. There are plenty of forms of adapting to Scald that are used for other purposes, such as status absorbers, Lum Berries, Healing Wish / Heal Bell, all you have to do is use them.
 

Shrug

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alfalfa said:
People have been complaining about Scald since BW2 and, quite frankly, it was never considered a serious problem then. People have also been complaining about Stealth Rock since DPP, and quite frankly, both of these potential issues are not completely difficult to deal with. While these moves exert teambuilding constraints, literally any form of indirect of indirect damage or status effects are going to exert teambuilding constraints. This thread needs to die, learn to adapt to these threats. There are plenty of forms of adapting to Scald that are used for other purposes, such as status absorbers, Lum Berries, Healing Wish / Heal Bell, all you have to do is use them.
This post makes me fucking vomit. For you to so casually dismiss ("this thread needs to die") four pages of arguement by high-level players, dudes who think a ton about the meta, with a sentence including the phrase "Lum Berries" used vis a vis Scald answers makes me think you're fucking with me, but you're prolly not. Things that absorb status (and can take a Rain + STAB boosted 80 BP water move + not be complete shit) distinct from Lum Berry users have Natural Cure p much, and the mons with that trait in BW are: Chansey, Celebii, Starmie (these are viable, unless u be bkc and can use rose, which u prolly shouldnt). ignore all the inherant problems to having three switchins to a move w distrubtion as varied as scald (i.e, Chansey cant beat Secret Sword) and focus on how limited that would make the meta. If u want to avoid a 30% luck effect, u need at least one of three easily exploitable mons that arent even guarenteed remedies to the issue. "Oh shit wait shrug, i said lum berries!" - yea u wanna be the dude that slaps a lum on his ferro to avoid getting beaten that first time by Scald Tenta, or Politoed, etc? u wanna drop LO or Specs on Latios to ensure u can counter Keld with the lum? The "adapatations" you list are closer to ridiculous contortions for something that only arises 30% of the time - the reason players havent done this is because it (obviously) makes you demonstrably and harmfully weaker to the rest of the meta. Heal Bell? the only thing that runs that semiconsistantly is Chansey, unless you're suggesting heal bell mew is going to show up in high level Black and White overused play. id rather not throw a chansey on every sqaud to ensure that 30/100 doesnt dick me, healing wish is either found on ur scald "absorber" lati-a or on rare scarf jirachi, and if u need to healish wish bc u took a scald burn that's an example of oppertunity cost (in using hwish) so high it makes ur argument seem blisteringly retarded.

Im not going to go on - your post is actually entirely covered (read: its supposedly "case closed"-style points are refuted, on the level climate change deniers are refuted, or "the bible supports child molestation" dudes are refuted) by other posts. Wait i'll address the "it's like any other status move" point quick. U can predict other status moves. someone comes to wisp u? switch in your fire-type, your reuin, your zammer. If they're clicking hpump? ferro eats it, Lati eats it, etc. Scald is a little of both - ur not bringing your zam into a move that pops that sash, or your fire type into a water-move, or ferro into something alarmingly close to a wisp. It cleaves the list of counters - and thus prediction and thus good play - into a small niche group, easily exploitable by the varied cast of Water-types and situs (goodbye lava plume argument right here) that might lead to one being thrown out. And when it's easy to throw one out, it's easy to toss the game one way - not to the "worse player", but to the player who got lucky first, meaning the game is nearly over before the better player can be found.

There are good arguments in this thread. all u have to do is read them (which means this is v much alive i hope)
 
This post makes me fucking vomit. For you to so casually dismiss ("this thread needs to die") four pages of arguement by high-level players, dudes who think a ton about the meta, with a sentence including the phrase "Lum Berries" used vis a vis Scald answers makes me think you're fucking with me, but you're prolly not. Things that absorb status (and can take a Rain + STAB boosted 80 BP water move + not be complete shit) distinct from Lum Berry users have Natural Cure p much, and the mons with that trait in BW are: Chansey, Celebii, Starmie (these are viable, unless u be bkc and can use rose, which u prolly shouldnt). ignore all the inherant problems to having three switchins to a move w distrubtion as varied as scald (i.e, Chansey cant beat Secret Sword) and focus on how limited that would make the meta. If u want to avoid a 30% luck effect, u need at least one of three easily exploitable mons that arent even guarenteed remedies to the issue. "Oh shit wait shrug, i said lum berries!" - yea u wanna be the dude that slaps a lum on his ferro to avoid getting beaten that first time by Scald Tenta, or Politoed, etc? u wanna drop LO or Specs on Latios to ensure u can counter Keld with the lum? The "adapatations" you list are closer to ridiculous contortions for something that only arises 30% of the time - the reason players havent done this is because it (obviously) makes you demonstrably and harmfully weaker to the rest of the meta. Heal Bell? the only thing that runs that semiconsistantly is Chansey, unless you're suggesting heal bell mew is going to show up in high level Black and White overused play. id rather not throw a chansey on every sqaud to ensure that 30/100 doesnt dick me, healing wish is either found on ur scald "absorber" lati-a or on rare scarf jirachi, and if u need to healish wish bc u took a scald burn that's an example of oppertunity cost (in using hwish) so high it makes ur argument seem blisteringly retarded.

Im not going to go on - your post is actually entirely covered (read: its supposedly "case closed"-style points are refuted, on the level climate change deniers are refuted, or "the bible supports child molestation" dudes are refuted) by other posts. Wait i'll address the "it's like any other status move" point quick. U can predict other status moves. someone comes to wisp u? switch in your fire-type, your reuin, your zammer. If they're clicking hpump? ferro eats it, Lati eats it, etc. Scald is a little of both - ur not bringing your zam into a move that pops that sash, or your fire type into a water-move, or ferro into something alarmingly close to a wisp. It cleaves the list of counters - and thus prediction and thus good play - into a small niche group, easily exploitable by the varied cast of Water-types and situs (goodbye lava plume argument right here) that might lead to one being thrown out. And when it's easy to throw one out, it's easy to toss the game one way - not to the "worse player", but to the player who got lucky first, meaning the game is nearly over before the better player can be found.

There are good arguments in this thread. all u have to do is read them (which means this is v much alive i hope)
Typically speaking, no good player arbitrarily throws around status healing on any random mon like Ferrothorn just to ignore Scald once. Opportunity cost is always going to exist, and you are exaggerating the extent of which Scald at all forces this. The argument of Scald is again, not that much different from Stealth Rock: both make certain mons better and others a lot worse, but they also keep top threats in check. Scald is annoying, but chances of luck are always going to exist, and your chances of avoiding a burn are still high enough. In addition, I never actually stated to run Healing Wish or something similar to that solely on the basis of avoiding Scald. These moves are usually run with more reasons than solely just Scald.

Both BW2 and ORAS OU have greater problems than just Scald. Most of these situations you highlighted have greater fundamental issues than Scald alone, and banning Scald is only dealing with icing on the cake.
 

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I'm not gonna involve myself with this thread to a degree of debating but alfalfa I think you really need to consider your thought process and logic of throwing out terminology such as good players and just side-tracking whatever supposed problem people have with Scald by pinning blame on what is assumed that BW2 and ORAS have other problems bigger than Scald. I don't play BW2 to a comfortable degree of speaking on behalf of its primary high level community so not gonna touch upon that. However, bringing up the accusation of ORAS OU having greater problems is not only subjective as hell but pretty undermining with the discussion at hand already having a focus that your comments are trying to sweep under the rug. I'd like to think that this thread won't turn into an absolute petty debate but when you throw comments like those with what seems to be a clear lack of understanding based on your perception of Heal Bell distribution, it can go downhill incredibly fast. Please don't use generic statements such as "there are bigger problems" because it's going to get nasty really quick and will be incredibly hard to take this discussion seriously if it comes to that.
 

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scald isn't like the other status-inflicting moves. it deals solid damage, it has great distribution, and it has a good chance of burning. this has been said before, but what makes scald different than these other status moves is that the only type immune to burns is weak to scald (fire).

i'm not really saying anything new here... just seems like people are underestimating what fundamentally makes scald so good. also, saying to run healing wish / lum berry to "counter" scald is kinda absurd. both of these things are 1 time use, and both have pretty high costs: healing wish requires that you run one of the few pokemon that get it & you lose that pokemon to use it, and lum berry requires that you miss out on an item that would probably be better. heal bell and aromatherapy are decent options, but the distribution on them isn't that great, making fitting them on a team not that hard. also, on more offensively-inclined builds, it can kinda be annoying losing some momentum...

with other status-inflicting moves (both ones where inflicting status is the primary effect and ones where it's a secondary effect), they have means of "countering" them that you probably have on your team. that "counter" might not be immune to these moves, but it should be the thing that *insert status inflicting move here* is least detrimental towards. obviously the move is gonna have an effect... that's kinda what every good move does, but scald isn't really comparable to moves like twave / wisp / toxic or moves like rock slide / discharge / iron head / air slash (on non serene grace pokemon !!!) because the good answers to it are severely limited due to the things listed above (distribution & the fact that it's SE against the 1 type that is immune to burns). this makes something that should counter a pokemon a worsened counter. keldeo's a pretty clear example because you have things like lati@s where the burn is annoying, and you have things like azumarill where the burn stops it from being a reliable counter.

there isn't really much to be said here that hasn't been said a thousand times already. i just don't understand how people can compare scald to other status-inflicting moves (other than garbage like serene grace iron head rachi rofl).
 
I'm surprised this thread is still a thing. I was under the impression that it had drawn itself into a stalemate as neither side had any pull over the other. I'm throwing myself into the camp that sides with Scald not being broken; it's more of an over-abundant annoyance that was brought around by power creep and the sheer number of Water-types. Post is long, hide tags contain bulk of my argument (echoing what others have said).

I really don't like the argument that "Scald can't be compared to Discharge / Lava Plume because of x, y, and z". They're very comparable: in terms of throwing the three moves side-by-side they're essentially identical. Power Points, accuracy, Base Damage, and their percent chance to inflict status are identical. The only difference is the distribution and that the type immune to burns is inherently weak to Scald. I think comparisons to Will-O-Wisp or other non-damaging status moves are unfair; that's the direct goal of such attacks while Scald is still a damaging move despite the common mindset of players using it to fish for burns.

Although, the mindset of the playerbase across all tiers in regards to Scald might be something worth getting at. Even I'm guilty of clicking Scald since the 30% chance in low-risk situations is easier than having to think about my next few turns at that very minute. I'm damn well certain that 99% of the entire UU playerbase is just as bad. Is this generation of competitive players getting lazier? More at six.

The distribution of Scald really comes down to the availability of Water-typing in Pokemon and that it exists as a TM (which ~90% of all Water-types can learn). If either Discharge or Lava Plume were equally as available, would we still be having this discussion? I assume we would - the distribution of Scald doesn't help its case - but I don't see either alternate conversation going anywhere. Any half-assed team should have something to mitigate a burn. They've existed since the inception of Pokemon. Balance and Stall teams have clerics, Offensive teams have Lum Berries and Special Attackers. The generation vi Facade mechanics and most Guts users do fit well on Balance and Offensive teams. They've almost become staples in UnderUsed because of the prevalence of bulky Water-types. There's not a lot of pissing and moaning anymore, the metagame just adapted. Stuff like Mega-Beedrill or Salamence didn't become any less viable due to the existence of Scald and how insane its distribution is. Christ, we've got Sacred Fire Entei which is such a more concerning threat than half of the Scald users and we get on just fine having something with a 50% burn rate.

Mind you, we don't have Keldeo anymore, and last I heard it was responsible for how viable stuff in OU is, so maybe that should be something worth looking at instead of Scald. I couldn't tell you though, I purposefully don't play OU.


If anything, Scald should probably be considered more of a twisted blessing in disguise. Or at least a necessary evil. The power creep of physical attackers over the last 2 or 3 generations has been insane while defensive Pokemon haven't been able to maintain such a pace: low HP stats let base gargantuan defensive stats down quite a bit, since a Pokemon's defense is dependent on 2 stats, where as Attack is simply one stat. Stat-boosting moves have generally favored offense, or at least the Smogon usage and perception of them has. Being able to burn something as it sets up, regardless of the damage involved, is starting to become a massive boon for defensive teams. Things are getting to be too powerful. Look at Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Mawile. The offensive output of those two Megas were enough to get them sent up to Ubers (deservedly). Defensive Pokemon can't keep up, and if we're serious about keeping Stall and to a lesser extent Balance, things like Scald are going to have to be tolerated.


Thunder Wave, in my God-honest opinion is worse than Scald, but it's never come up in a "suspect" discussion because it's not broken. It doesn't miss, is guaranteed to give the status condition, and permanently slows the opposition - even fully immobilizing them. Like burns, it can cause multiple Pokemon to be statused - there's no clause against it. Thunder Wave has two immunities as opposed to one "not really an immunity", but has an even greater distribution. I've seen a lot more matches decided because of a full paralysis than a Scald burn; the new Facade mechanics and Guts users (having been a thing long before Scald) can use that burn against the Scald user, and Lum Berry physical sweepers have existed for as long as I've played Pokemon competitively. Paralysis is harder to get around because of the Speed effect not being ignored like the Attack effect of a burn, and a burn won't just fully stop you from attacking 25% of the time. The only other move like Thunder Wave is Spore, which is deservedly controlled by Sleep Clause. Just saying, pick your battles.
 
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I'm aware of the unfortunate reality that Scald is off the table; however, I am still going to write this novel because it seems people don't seem to get the big deal about this move, as evidenced a few posts ago, and/or consider it just another stupid thing in a game filled to the brim with them. Today I was browsing through some logs from before SPL 6 and ctrl + f for "scald" had tons of respected players complaining non-stop about how terrible the move is; maybe there's a reason this thread was made. Let's not pretend like this is something I just made up because I got haxed one time.

Another thing is that people seem to think the entire argument against Scald is "it's fucking stupid" and while they may not disagree, they also can't get behind such a primitive ban reason because otherwise you'd have to ban Thunder Wave and such. We ban things on a case by case basis, first of all, and the case for banning Scald is much stronger than anything related to other luck-related moves. The "you can't ban this or you have to ban that" argument has always been an annoying copout and while the reasons it is seem more than apparent enough to me, when it comes to suspect topics there is a history of otherwise intelligent people suddenly being unable to understand anything that isn't entirely spelled out to them.

I would throw out every "stupid" (luck-based) move without a second thought. This means your ADV Rock Slide, your DPP Iron Head Jirachi, Thunder Wave, and what have you. I enjoy when there is less potential for "nonsense" (quotation marks so someone doesn't try to latch on and miss the point with some bullshit about "well nonsense is subjective lol") in this Game of Odds we play, and if we want the game to be as competitive as possible then that is the clear solution to me, since I don't buy the "but we aren't even playing Pokemon if we ban a lot DX" argument because that is arbitrary, with no real way to measure it and if that were the case then we haven't been playing Pokemon for a long, long time.

This "extreme" method isn't the only way, however; banning things is not an all-or-nothing deal. By saying "if you ban Scald you have to ban TWave and all other instances of luck" you are saying one of two things. The first thing you might be saying is that since we cannot get rid of all luck in Pokemon, we may as well not even try limiting the more extreme instances of it. Funnily enough, you don't see anyone clamoring to try out OHKO/Evasion moves or Moody. This kind of argument often popped up in BW suspect threads, things along the lines of "BW will suck whether or not we suspect Landorus/Keldeo/Kyurem-B/weather, why bother?" and if you need why that's pure nonsense spelled out then you probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Plus, it's even said in our handy-dandy tiering framework under Section IV.) Probability management is a part of the game:
"B.) This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much" and we removed them."
No, I am not saying Scald is as bad as those things, before someone decides to jump down my throat and put words in my mouth.

The second thing you might be saying is that banning Scald alone is unfair because there are other luck-inducing moves in the metagame. In order for this argument to hold water, Scald would have to be at the same level as other luck-inducing moves. Suggesting Scald isn't in a league of its own is being (purposefully) ignorant of reality.

Speaking of people either not knowing what they're talking about or ignoring points that refute theirs (the latter being a common tactic when it comes to discussing suspects, I'm aware), I must now refute the incredibly stupid/intellectually dishonest comparison to moves such as Lava Plume, Body Slam, Discharge and Sludge Bomb. If you seriously compare Scald to those moves, you either don't understand what's going on, or you are purposely spewing falsehoods that seem like a logical conclusion just because you really want to keep Scald around so you can abuse it. This has been the case for several suspects in the past, and it's no different here. Both parties have made several appearances in this thread. It's been stated several times, but let's go through it again.

Scald has incredible distribution. Look at all these Pokemon that can and do viably Scald in OU:
Keldeo, Manaphy, (Mega) Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, Suicune, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Alomomola, Politoed, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Kingdra, Omastar, Mega Blastoise, Jellicent, Seismitoad. I'll even mention Eo's Azumarill and CTC's very heat very swank AV set with Scald as the 4th move actually having the slightest semblance of viability to show how unbelievable Scald is.

Users of Lava Plume in OU: one, Heatran. If your Heatran counter gets screwed by a Lava Plume burn, you are Heatran weak to begin with because it also learns Will-o-Wisp. There are also Pokemon such as Gliscor, Starmie and Manaphy that generally don't care about whatever it wants to do. Users of Discharge: one, Zapdos. If your counter to Zapdos gets screwed by a Discharge paralysis, you are Zapdos weak because it also learns Thunder Wave (granted this doesn't see use now but the way people put TWave on all their shit nowadays then who knows). Neither of these things do anything to help its weakness to slow Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Clefable. It can annoy Pokemon such as ScarfTar, Charizard-X, Heatran and Latios, sure. Users of Body Slam: two, Jirachi and Altaria. Jira can threaten a (non-bulky) Garchomp or Landorus-T with it, sure. It also gets completely blanked by other common Pokemon that tend to be partnered with them, such as Rotom-Wash, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Heatran, Mega Scizor, I could go on. Altaria might make that ScarfRachi hesitant to switch in, but it doesn't threaten its bulkier counters at all and Alt is generally starved for power as is. Users of Sludge Bomb: Mega Venusaur, it's pretty rare on Amoonguss. Sure, Tornadus-Therian, Talonflame and Lati@s will not enjoy the poison. Others like Heatran, Skarmory and Chansey (because it takes so little it's not immediately pressured) couldn't care less about it.

See how these moves on some Pokemon can threaten some common switchins, but are shit useless vs others? That's fine. That's the difference between them and Scald, who has exactly one switch that truly doesn't give a fuck about it - Gastrodon (I guess Jellicent if you're ABR), who doesn't like a lot of things that Scald users tend to carry... and uses Scald itself! People say "if your counter gets screwed by something a Pokemon can do, it's not a counter" and don't realize that they're actually helping show how awful Scald is. The Water type has long been dominant because of how naturally powerful it is. You take these Pokemon that are incredibly strong to begin with and then give them this (luck-based!) move that cuts their counters down even more. People complain about how impossible it is to counter everything in ORAS. Well god damn you must really like complaining then because why else would you not want options to counter dominant Pokemon to open up?

Not only do your teambuilding options go way the hell up, but battles also improve. If someone plays it safe and gets predicted, they no longer have the chance to get away with it anyway. If Mega Venusaur switches into Keldeo's Surf, your switchin is getting attacked and the pressure is on you. If Mega Venusaur switches into Keldeo's Scald and gets burned, you've got a free switch as it's forced to Synthesis. If someone carelessly throws away their answer to SD Scizor, they can't go "well I'll throw Manaphy into it and hope I get the burn" and get away with it.
[16:05] <jeff48> scald is dumb cause it rewards the safe move. lets say u got a keld vs tran and u know hes got a venusaur out back. rather than anticipating the venusaur switch and doubling to pinsir or whatever, u can just scald and potentially win either way depending if it burns
[5:13:36 pm] <~Nails> scald is dumb because the only type that is immune to the status it inflicts is weak to the move
[5:13:50 pm] <~Nails> discharge is resisted by electrics and grounds and can't paralyze either
[5:14:12 pm] <~Nails> sludge bomb is resisted by steel and poison and can't poison either
[5:14:18 pm] <~Nails> lava plume is resisted by fires and can't burn them
[5:14:30 pm] <~Nails> body slam is resisted by ghosts and may as well be resisted by electrics and can't paralyze either
[5:14:38 pm] <~Nails> also make a note that jeff48 is heist/babidi1998
Of course, the type chart is not the only factor in Pokemon, harkening back to Phil's Protips. There are many ways around burns. Lum Berry! Magic Guard! Heal Bell! Water immunes!
- Lum Berry is a one-time solution for a move that gets thrown around an awful lot, and isn't exactly a great fit on counters to Scald-using Pokemon. If you want to run Lum Ferrothorn just to Slowbro/Manaphy/Suicune have to burn you twice before getting ready to run you over then have fun not winning.
- Magic Guard Clefable loses to: Keldeo, Manaphy, CM Slowbro (which is pretty much every one), CM or NP Slowking, Suicune, Kingdra, Omastar, Curse Gastrodon, Curse Quagsire, Tentacruel, Jellicent. Sure it's nice to pivot out of a non-Scald and the soaking abilities are gorgeous against an annoying Starmie or something but you cannot act like it is a reliable way to beat them. Reuniclus is in a similar boat and it is much less viable (not to say it isn't good).
- Heal Bell: Chansey is good, Mega Altaria is good, Togekiss is good, everything else is gimmicky/bad. A wide variety to choose from. Plus, your burned Pokemon still gets crippled temporarily (and can get burned again!), and it's not like pulling a HB off is easy. That said, this is good. Not exactly easy to fit in though!
- Water immunes: Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Jellicent. Not exactly a ton to choose from. Gastrodon is amazing of course, albeit not flawless. Toxicroak is alright but UU and not very bulky. Jelli seems pretty similar to Gastro albeit with bigger flaws.
- Healing Wish, which is now apparently an anti-Scald measure: well, technically, yes... but how do you seriously suggest sacrificing one of your Pokemon to deal with an unlucky burn as a reasonable thing?

The numbers on Scald are absurd. The chance of burning in one of two Scalds is 51% - you are actually the lucky one if one of them doesn't burn! This is staggering when you consider how many opportunities there are to use the move in the game, again due to how powerful Water types are. It is not comparable to a stray critical hit losing you a game, where you can chalk it up to "shit happens." This is games commonly being swayed in one side's favor by the dreaded Odds. Yes, minimizing the luck you have to fight through is a huge part of being good at Pokemon. However Scald is so ubiquitous that this is demanding the impossible.

But, you say, burns aren't even that bad for special attackers! Well, if you think being forced to prematurely heal and constantly being on the verge of death from switching into nearly anything at all isn't even "that bad" then I'm probably not convincing you of anything. This isn't even mentioning how physical attackers just... aren't switchins at all. Poor Azumarill, totally blanks Keldeo but can't switch in because of Scald. I've seen some people say Azu is so impossible to switch in to for offense that this is a good thing, but this sounds more like a problem on Azu's end. I've heard similar things about Mega Venusaur and Mega Scizor, that they'd be borderline impossible to deal with for most offense without it, but... well, let's just say that Snorlax having Body Slam doesn't stop Dragon Dance Tyranitar from being a total menace in ADV.

Going back to the tiering framework, I saw something else of interest:
C.) "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what he does. In relation to the latter part, "too much" also refers to factors that nearly completely take a game out of the player's hands and turn the PRIMARY point of the game to wait for the RNG."
This sounds an awful lot like Scald to me! It doesn't have to be a game-ender. A "considerable disadvantage" is exactly what a burn on Amoonguss or Tornadus-Therian entails, and many games' primary points are waiting on whose Scald spammer gets "lucky" first.

Yes, you can skillfully use Scald. You can make skillful use of anything in the game. It took skill for Landorus to predict the Tornadus-Therian switchin and use Rock Slide, but we banned that, so I don't see why Scald should be exempt just because you can double Amoonguss into Keldeo against the Heatran switch and use this free turn to attempt to burn Mega Venusaur.

I think I covered everything on my mind and look forward to engaging in intelligent warfare. Thanks for reading.
 
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Fireburn

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I don't play ORAS OU much so maybe I'm not the best person to join this debate (Ubers has one viable Scald user in Primal Kyogre and a one-stop-shop absorber in Primal Groudon), but I am a bit curious to hear some responses to this.

No, I am not saying Scald is as bad as those things, before someone decides to jump down my throat and put words in my mouth.
But isn't this what you have to prove? If you want to ban Scald for being a "too overbearing probability factor," are you not trying to classify it in the same category of moves as Evasion or OHKO? Obviously the surface effect isn't as bad (30% chance of burn sounds less bad than, say, 30% chance of a free KO or a 50% chance to not perform an action), but in arguing for its ban you are still trying to prove that the practical effect (makes too many games come down to luck) is similar.

You will find this difficult to prove since Scald simply isn't as bad as other moves we've banned in the past. An untimely burn is less likely to be as costly as an untimely KO or lost turn from flinch/paralysis. Scald has multiple and varied countermeasures (albeit imperfect, but this is true of every status effect) that can be viably fit on most teams except for hyper offense (which is inherently prone to instances of bad luck simply because they aim to end games as quickly as possible). Burn isn't an overpowered status effect and doesn't harm everything universally in the same way a lost turn or instant KO does. Ferrothorn getting screwed by a Scald burn because it tried to Spike on Suicune doesn't sound much worse than Azumarill or Gyarados getting screwed by a Lava Plume burn because they tried to set up on Heatran, or getting bailed out because your back was against the wall and you went for (and got) the FP/Rock Slide flinch/miss because it was your best path to victory.

At the end of the day, Scald is, like many other moves in Pokemon, a moderately powerful attack with a 30% chance to do something that ranges from "mildly annoying" to "outright crippling" depending on what it hits and when. The only thing that really sets it apart is distribution, because Water is a good type and most Water-types learn this move.

But is the distribution problem really that bad? Let's take a look at that list a bit closer:
Keldeo, Manaphy, (Mega) Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, Suicune, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Alomomola, Politoed, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Kingdra, Omastar, Mega Blastoise, Jellicent, Seismitoad
Now let's take a look at that list of Lava Plume users:
Users of Lava Plume in OU: one, Heatran.
Sounds like a huge discrepancy, right? Except for the fact that Heatran gets more usage than Slowbro, Suicune, Politoed, Tentacruel, Quagsire, Kingdra, Seismitoad, Empoleon, and Gastrodon combined, and others on that list like Omastar/Mega Blastoise/Jellicent are extremely uncommon. Even if you whittle that percentage down more by factoring in moveset stats (65% of Heatran used Lava Plume), you are more likely to see a Lava Plume Heatran than encountering any variant of a Pokemon on half your list.

If you don't trust ladder stats (fair), Heatran was still used more than pretty much every Scald user combined in SPL not named Keldeo, Slowbro, or Starmie. The list in a realistic usage setting should look more like this:

List of common users of nasty 30% burn moves: Keldeo, Manaphy, (Mega) Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran
And jeez man, I dunno about you but I hate switching into Lava Plume Heatran! My Water/Dragon types and Tyranitar/Garchomp are always getting screwed by burns when they SHOULD beat a Fire/Steel-type, and even if they don't get burnt Heatran can just eat a hit from most of them and use Toxic! So annoying! What's that? Use a Fire-type? But isn't Heatran commonly used as a check to other Fire-types? What if I get Toxiced, or Earth Powered, or Stone Edged, or Roared when Stealth Rock is up? Use Gliscor or Manaphy? What if it's one of those hipster offensive sets that can destroy them? This is hard!

Point being, Scald's wide distribution makes it better than things like Lava Plume on paper. But in reality, that one Lava Plume user is way more dangerous and common than most of the stuff on your list in any given battle. The distribution discrepancy isn't as bad when you consider how often each thing is actually used.

This also doesn't even bother to eliminate things from "The List" that either don't need Scald (Jellicent), would rather use Hydro Pump 90% of the time (rain sweepers), or don't have enough offense to make their Scalds count for anything other than a 30% accurate Will-O-Wisp (most defensive mons on that list, they either carry Toxic or can't break through their counters even with Scald's help). So we're left with Keldeo, Manaphy, the Slow Bros, and Suicune. Only Suicune and maybe Manaphy would be markedly worse without Scald, for the others it's pretty much just icing on the cake for a Pokemon that is already good by its own merits. This seems to indicate that Scald's power is more correlated with what is using it rather than the move itself, which raises serious doubts as to whether Scald the move is actually uncompetitive.

I'm not arguing that Scald is a bad move (it isn't) or that it won't potentially screw you out of a win (it can, like any other move with a percent chance to do something other than inflict damage), but I'm not convinced it's superior distribution makes it so much better to where it is considered an uncompetitive or unreasonable game element.
 

kokoloko

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i mean, if we're going to stawman arguments... you missed the part about how--actually ima just c/p:

[16:05] <jeff48> scald is dumb cause it rewards the safe move. lets say u got a keld vs tran and u know hes got a venusaur out back. rather than anticipating the venusaur switch and doubling to pinsir or whatever, u can just scald and potentially win either way depending if it burns
[5:13:36 pm] <~Nails> scald is dumb because the only type that is immune to the status it inflicts is weak to the move
[5:13:50 pm] <~Nails> discharge is resisted by electrics and grounds and can't paralyze either
[5:14:12 pm] <~Nails> sludge bomb is resisted by steel and poison and can't poison either
[5:14:18 pm] <~Nails> lava plume is resisted by fires and can't burn them
[5:14:30 pm] <~Nails> body slam is resisted by ghosts and may as well be resisted by electrics and can't paralyze either
[5:14:38 pm] <~Nails> also make a note that jeff48 is heist/babidi1998
i rly don't get whats so hard to understand about this. scald is not body slam, lava plume, sludge bomb, or any other move. scald is scald and it has a unique set of circumstances surrounding it. quite frankly it's kind of sad to see a current tier leader straight up ignore this fact and strawman a post in this way.

anyway, my days of fighting for this lost cause are long done but let the record show i was the first to try!!!
 

Bad Ass

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If you want to ban Scald for being a "too overbearing probability factor," are you not trying to classify it in the same category of moves as Evasion or OHKO? Obviously the surface effect isn't as bad (30% chance of burn sounds less bad than, say, 30% chance of a free KO or a 50% chance to not perform an action), but in arguing for its ban you are still trying to prove that the practical effect (makes too many games come down to luck) is similar.

You will find this difficult to prove since Scald simply isn't as bad as other moves we've banned in the past. An untimely burn is less likely to be as costly as an untimely KO or lost turn from flinch/paralysis. Scald has multiple and varied countermeasures (albeit imperfect, but this is true of every status effect) that can be viably fit on most teams except for hyper offense (which is inherently prone to instances of bad luck simply because they aim to end games as quickly as possible). Burn isn't an overpowered status effect and doesn't harm everything universally in the same way a lost turn or instant KO does. Ferrothorn getting screwed by a Scald burn because it tried to Spike on Suicune doesn't sound much worse than Azumarill or Gyarados getting screwed by a Lava Plume burn because they tried to set up on Heatran, or getting bailed out because your back was against the wall and you went for (and got) the FP/Rock Slide flinch/miss because it was your best path to victory.

At the end of the day, Scald is, like many other moves in Pokemon, a moderately powerful attack with a 30% chance to do something that ranges from "mildly annoying" to "outright crippling" depending on what it hits and when. The only thing that really sets it apart is distribution, because Water is a good type and most Water-types learn this move.
I'd like to address this part first. I will not spend a lot of time on the part of your argument which claims that the rewards of a Scald burn are minimally more advantageous compared to other status effects. If you wish to read my argument against this, check the link I have on the bottom of the page.

What I would like to point out is this: I think that this logic is inherently representative of a highly flawed model for tiering. Your argument:

1) If we ban Scald, it would be not for being overpowered (as we might ban Primal Groudon from OU), but for making games come down to luck.
2) We have banned other moves for making games come down to luck. I will use the example of OHKO moves
3) If we are to ban Scald, then its 'practical effect is similar to OHKO moves' because we are banning it under the same pretense.

Simply put, your argument is that we cannot ban Scald for being a luck-based move because there are other, more overpowering luck based moves (i.e. OHKO moves). If we followed this tiering model for banning Pokemon, we could only ban the top few percent MOST overpowered Ubers, and would have to leave the rest free because their 'practical effect in the game' is not comparable to those we have banned.

The broken-ness, uncompetitive-ness or by any means 'ban worthy-ness' of a move, ability, Pokemon, or any combination thereof is not dependent on that of another move, ability, or Pokemon. So let's cut that argument right there.

Sounds like a huge discrepancy, right? Except for the fact that Heatran gets more usage than Slowbro, Suicune, Politoed, Tentacruel, Quagsire, Kingdra, Seismitoad, Empoleon, and Gastrodon combined, and others on that list like Omastar/Mega Blastoise/Jellicent are extremely uncommon. Even if you whittle that percentage down more by factoring in moveset stats (65% of Heatran used Lava Plume), you are more likely to see a Lava Plume Heatran than encountering any variant of a Pokemon on half your list.

If you don't trust ladder stats (fair), Heatran was still used more than pretty much every Scald user combined in SPL not named Keldeo, Slowbro, or Starmie. The list in a realistic usage setting should look more like this:

List of common users of nasty 30% burn moves: Keldeo, Manaphy, (Mega) Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran, Heatran

And jeez man, I dunno about you but I hate switching into Lava Plume Heatran! My Water/Dragon types and Tyranitar/Garchomp are always getting screwed by burns when they SHOULD beat a Fire/Steel-type, and even if they don't get burnt Heatran can just eat a hit from most of them and use Toxic! So annoying! What's that? Use a Fire-type? But isn't Heatran commonly used as a check to other Fire-types? What if I get Toxiced, or Earth Powered, or Stone Edged, or Roared when Stealth Rock is up? Use Gliscor or Manaphy? What if it's one of those hipster offensive sets that can destroy them? This is hard!

Point being, Scald's wide distribution makes it better than things like Lava Plume on paper. But in reality, that one Lava Plume user is way more dangerous and common than most of the stuff on your list in any given battle. The distribution discrepancy isn't as bad when you consider how often each thing is actually used.
I would first like to say that I do not appreciate facile misrepresentations of the anti-Scald argument such as this:

And jeez man, I dunno about you but I hate switching into Lava Plume Heatran! My Water/Dragon types and Tyranitar/Garchomp are always getting screwed by burns when they SHOULD beat a Fire/Steel-type, and even if they don't get burnt Heatran can just eat a hit from most of them and use Toxic! So annoying! What's that? Use a Fire-type? But isn't Heatran commonly used as a check to other Fire-types? What if I get Toxiced, or Earth Powered, or Stone Edged, or Roared when Stealth Rock is up? Use Gliscor or Manaphy? What if it's one of those hipster offensive sets that can destroy them? This is hard!
If you wish to argue against a Scald ban I suggest you do not misrepresent our argument. You may view my post on page one if you want a concise version of my views, which I believe to be representative of a strong argument to ban Scald. I have never claimed that any one Pokemon "should" be able to beat another Pokemon. I have never claimed that Lava Plume was not a good move. This is a blatant misrepresentation of my argument.

Secondly, I wish very, very greatly to quash any shred of the long standing argument from anyone who reads this post regarding the comparability of Scald to: Sludge Bomb, Lava Plume, Body Slam, Moonblast, Discharge, [insert literally any 30% effect move here]. I will attempt to do so.

The problem with Scald over other 30% moves is threefold. Firstly is its capacity to be used as an offensive tool. Other Pokemon with large attacking stats or who otherwise throw out a lot of attacks get access to these 30% moves, but they often do not harm their counters very much. Take offensive Fairies for example. The 30% Moonblast drop is great -- but it does not allow them to do much to their counters, whose numbers are largely Steel-types attacking from the physical side. A notable exception to this is M-Venusaur, who can throw out high powered Sludge Bombs to severely annoy Talonflame, Tornadus-T, and Latios. This differs GREATLY from Pokemon such as Keldeo and Manaphy, who have very high usage (Keldeo especially), are already difficult to wall, and receive enormous benefit from Scald burning their targets. A burned Amoonguss, M-Venusaur, Slowbro, etc. etc. is so much less useful than a non status-ed one, and can make it realistic if not expected for Keldeo to blow past things its own checks.

Now, you may construe this last point in a manner similar to what I pointed out earlier. Don't. I do not mean that certain things are /supposed/ to check Keldeo (for instance). I rather mean that them functioning as checks to Keldeo 70% or the time, or 49% of the time, or 34% of the time, etc. is not something that can be accounted for in team building.

Hence where the second difference comes in: Distribution. Scald has a simply massive distribution compared to any of these other moves. The only two which are comparable in distribution are Moonblast and Lava Plume. Notice how I say comparable. Scald is certainly more widely distributed than these moves. If you want to nitpick about what is actually common in the tier, consider these users of moves:

Scald:
Keldeo, Manaphy, Slowbro, Suicune, Starmie (note the 4 very top tier OU Pokemon here)

Lava Plume:
Heatran

Moonblast
M-Diancie, Clefable

If you want to argue that Scald does not have a better distribution than other 30% moves, you are wrong.

The last difference is the nature of a Water type move distributing burns. I will focus on Lava Plume here since you seem to believe that the two are directly comparable. The ways in which one would traditionally circumvent being burned: Using a Fire-type (own Heatran, M-Zard), using a Gliscor or other self-statusing Pokemon, using a Starmie, using Natural Cure Pokemon, using Heal Bell.

Natural Cure and Heal Bell are viable, though have very limited distribution (Chansey is great for both, Celebi is not a particularly good Pokemon, Starmie is good). Note how the other two methods of absorbing burns are completely unviable to tank Scald. The realistic counterplay for Scald is limited to one of the aforementioned three Pokemon (note how none, using Natural Cure, are all very passive) or using a Water Absorber (i.e. Gastrodon).

Let me make clear -- abundantly clear -- that I do not think any one of these three characteristics apart from the others make Scald uncompetitive. It is the combination of all three of these characteristics which no other 30% move possesses which differentiates it so totally as to rend comparison pale and ineffectual. So no, I am not saying that Heatran's counters are not susceptible to Lava Plume. I am saying that Heatran is not also an offensive juggernaut, as well as that there are not multiple Pokemon, both defensive and offensive, using Lava Plume to great advantage.

Regarding your point about Pokemon not getting worse with Scald. If you do not think that every single Water which employs Scald would be markedly worse off without it, I don't know what to tell you. This is a simple fact of the case. If you believe otherwise, you are unqualified to speak on this matter. Defensive waters now can't threaten things like Grass types, SPD Skarm, Ferrothorn, etc. ad nauseum, and all Special offensive Waters can't threaten their counters directly.

I really, really hope no one EVER brings up the "other 30% moves" argument. If you want an account of why I think Scald should actually be banned, please be directed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scald.3541817/#post-6287375 (really though read this if you want to know why I am positive Scald is uncompetitive because I did not direct this post to that aim).
 
I don't think the logic behind banning Scald is being properly elucidated.

Consider that Sacred Fire, for instance, is almost a direct upgrade of Scald. It's not considered a problem, because it's specific to Entei and we accept that Entei's gimmick is reliably burning its switch-ins. But Scald is a problem, simply because it gets used more and because its abusers are better.

The logical basis of this is that a move's distribution, and the quality of Pokemon which can abuse it, are functions of the move itself. Scald is unhealthy not because of its power, accuracy, typing, and side effect, but because a) Keldeo and Manaphy get it, and b) all the defensive Waters get it.

But here's another thought experiment. What if every Water type got their own signature move, a la Sacred Fire, each of which had essentially the same qualities as Scald? None of these moves would be considered unhealthy in their own right, and we couldn't ban them. We're only considering banning Scald because it's one move that all of these Pokemon use.

The conclusion is that we're simply targeting Scald because banning it would be an easy way to remove en masse a lot of the luck-dependence from the tier.

Therefore, if we proceed in banning Scald, we have to recognise that there's no real consistency or objectivity behind doing so. We'd be doing it because, for most of us, it would make the metagame more enjoyable. I'm personally very happy to proceed on this basis - in fact, I think this logic is at the heart of all our tiering decisions. But I understand a lot of people are likely to disagree with it.
 
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Not sure if I'm qualified to post here or if I need certain badges, but I have quite a bit to say regarding Scald.

Personally, I have always hated this move in the metagame. Scald is a move that brings together a number of factors that put it far above not just most of the "Base 80 with 30% Effect" moves, but above most of the moves in the game in general as far as risk:reward goes. To list off the factors and keep my thoughts organized.

- Scald is a move that offers Utility that is almost impossible to replicate the combination of. Thunder Wave is the better choice if predicting a switch-in to Paralyze, and anything you wouldn't use TW on you probably wouldn't choose Discharge for either. Scald's Status condition and typing are typically mitigated by completely different characteristics whether in concept (Fire types absorbing Burns) or in practice: The only Self-Status Mons that can stomach Water Damage are Guts users and some Resttalkers, with Gliscor being the only OU Poison Heal user. Every other mon fears one aspect too much to be a consistent answer to the other.
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 114-134 (32.3 - 38%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Quagsire's not winning that 1 v 1, but 30% is a decent chunk to have knocked off Gliscor, one of the only things that doesn't suffer from the match up solely on the burn chance. And this is for a Base 55 SpA defensive user. I don't think I need to point out the issue with offensive users like Keldeo or even unboosted Manaphy. Unlike other secondary effects, there is no mon in the game that can completely ignore being burned in how it is played (whether for passive damage or the ATK drop), the way most Steel types are Physical and ignore Moonblast's SpA drop or Ferrothorn is too slow to worry about Paralysis's Speed drop (the turn loss is RNG even after getting the status). So this to note, Scald's combination of potential benefits is extremely unique and has very few viable and reliable methods of preparation in the current Metagame.

- Scald has very few options on most potential users that outperform it over the course of a game. The most obvious things to consider are Hydro Pump and Surf, the other widely distributed Special Water moves on offensive mons. Both have higher BP, but over the course of a game those numbers don't quite have the same discrepancy unless you're looking at a very specific target that one OHKO's/2HKO's and the other doesn't, which often is not the biggest case since the scenario to predict around tends to be a resist or something bulky enough to eat either hit. Hydro Pump's lower accuracy makes its effective damage over the course of a longer sample size (as could be the case fighting a bulky team) 88 BP (110 BP * 80% ACC), and that's without mathcrafting the damage added from Burns Scald inflicts. An additional 12% damage per turn once inflicted is a big difference with powerhouses like Keldeo; the obvious mention is that Scald makes it much easier to get around Mega Venusaur, which would otherwise be a flawless counter to this ridiculous wallbreaker.

- Finally, Scald's design does very little to discourage its use: Hydro Pump's 8 PP is much easier to PP Stall than Scald's 24, and unlike HP or Surf, it benefits the Scald user to spam it since, unlike the other moves, Scald statistically stands to benefit the more it's used since the Burn inhibits the opponent sitting in front of it. Amoongus can switch into Hydro Pump from Keldeo and win the match up no worse for wear, but if it gets burned by Scald, it suffers either in the Keldeo match up (if it comes back in later after forcing the Pony out) or against anything else it may need to check on the team. Scald is a move that stands to benefit the user more as it is spammed, without necessarily sacrificing its overall viability when compared to other moves.

There is not a single mon using Scald in the current Metagame that would not see a significant blow to its viability if the move were to be in some way limited: As good as the move is on it, Keldeo runs Hydro Pump + Scald because its movepool is that barren (and I almost would argue Scald is the primary STAB in many games). Scald is a move that is extremely low-risk/high-reward because it offers a decent power move with good coverage and a secondary effect that is mitigated by two almost opposite types of opponents, meaning there are very few reliable answers to the move, much less the combination of the move and its common user whether its a powerful attacker or a versatile support, both of whom can use the move to tremendous effect. The move has a wide distribution of viable users, whether it is the main factor or just another boon in their pool, making it a general commonality rather than one tool on a single top tier threat to prep for as is the case with something like the previously mentioned Lava Plume Heatran. This move takes nothing away from most viable users by being chosen and there are very few teams that do not benefit from a user's inclusion, and certainly none that can succeed without careful consideration of how to handle them using this move.

I don't know if Scald can be called the most noncompetitive element in the game right now, nor will I say I'm versed enough to pass a verdict on its fate. With that said, its undeniable this move has a huge influence on the metagame in both teambuilding and competing, and I personally see the sum of its effects as bringing more significant negatives than positives in many cases.
 
you are more likely to see a Lava Plume Heatran than encountering any variant of a Pokemon on half your list.
That's not totally true. You took in account that every Heatran in OU uses Lava Plume which is actually false. Heatran's almost unique set using Lava Plume is the Specially Defensive one, which is prone to be used in some balanced and/or stalls. This set has to compete with the Magma Storm (both PowerHerb+Solarbeam and Taunter), the Scarfed, etc and those sets don't run Lava Plume because the low power, compared to other STABs as indeed Magma Storm and Fire Blast, doesn't make that move worthy, despite having 30% burn rate. That's because Heatran struggles against several Fire types without Toxic/EarthPower, and it can't do too much vs tons of bulky Waters, unlike some Scald users. If you take a look at that Scald users list, you surely note that you will not see any of those mons not running Scald. Scald is too "win/win" to not get used. Heatran Lava Plume's targets can usually deal with burn, while most of the water resistors, especially grass types, can't deal with it (Venu Ferro Latwins etc).

EDIT: I would like to note another thing: Lava Plume in only used by Heatran, on defensive sets. While Lava Plume can make its targets get burnt, it actually does not make further pressure on them, since defensive sets lack enough power to force some switchins or recovers etc.
Scald is used by several mons, in both offensive and defensive situations.
Offensive mons are like Keldeo, Manaphy, Kingdra. They can spam Scald, burn their "counters", forcing them to deal with their staying power even before dealing with Scald user. Scald offensive users then can just switch-in and repeat that process until their counters go in 2hko range and that's not so hard since burn takes off 13% per turn, plus hazards and/or other residuals + lack of leftovers for many of their switchins (Venu+Latwins)
Defensive mons are Slowbro, Alomomola, Gastrodon, Starmie, etc etc. While they can't pressure some of their switchins, or at least they can't put the same pressure that offensive scald users do, they can easily prevent to be fodders for some statupper mons like Mega Scizor, Drum Azumarill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Mega-Altaria, just spamming Scald. This situation is almost unique and even if you switch-out your statupper and make your usual water resistor to take that Scald, you will risk to make it burned blablabla.

So, again, comparing Scald to Lava Plume doesn't make any point, even though Heatran is more used than some Scald users. The point is the impact of Scald vs his common switch-ins in long-terms aftermaths, and the easiness wherewith you can pressure lots of water resistors with burn (most of the time mindless: remember BW Tentacruel vs Ferrothorn).
Why would you make a good switch predicting the grass type when you can just spam Scald and hope for 30% burn? You can try to recreate that situation as many times as you like if you wanna burn a certain target. I don't find skillful that every time Keldeo comes in I have to pray that Latios won't get burned, so I don't have to Roost and see Tyranitar coming in ready to Pursuit me (or at least I can Defog without going in Pursuit 40bp kill range), or just switchout to die to next SR+Scald+Burnresidual+whatever else. Why would I switch on Venusaur when I can burn it and force to use his poor 8 PP Synthesis (which can't even recover properly if sandstorm goes on)? Scald, most of the times, is too stupid and too good at the same time, a lethal combination for games-that-would-like-to-not-get-their-outcome-compromised-too-much-by-those-unpleasant-but-unavoidable-secondary-effects.
 
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Jibaku

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Clair

This is interesting and will be relevant very soon with Volcanion's release. If we do decide to ban Scald, how would we handle Steam Eruption? Do we identify Steam Eruption as a Volcanion-defining move and decide Volcanion's tiering based on that? Or do we treat Steam Eruption like Scald and ban the move instead?
 
Clair

This is interesting and will be relevant very soon with Volcanion's release. If we do decide to ban Scald, how would we handle Steam Eruption? Do we identify Steam Eruption as a Volcanion-defining move and decide Volcanion's tiering based on that? Or do we treat Steam Eruption like Scald and ban the move instead?
My thoughts about this:
Steam Eruption is a unique move, the Volcanion signature one. Imo it seems not that Volcanion will be a huge utility mon, and as long as Scald isn't around, it will be "fine" that there will be a only one monster capable to use that move with that effect, considering that monster won't probably reach high viability (SR weak, meh coverage, slow, average defensive stats + lack of reliable recovery). I theorized Volcanion would do something good vs Keldeo and Azumarill, then I saw that CB Knock off Azu takes half life so it means that SR + Knock off = burn azu or be dead (or be specs sludge wave and kill).
Secret Sword from Specs Keldeo is 53% chance to 2hko w/out SR so rip Volcanion.
 
Clair

This is interesting and will be relevant very soon with Volcanion's release. If we do decide to ban Scald, how would we handle Steam Eruption? Do we identify Steam Eruption as a Volcanion-defining move and decide Volcanion's tiering based on that? Or do we treat Steam Eruption like Scald and ban the move instead?
Steam Eruption and Volcanion would be tiered as one package. If a few other viable Pokemon learnt Steam Eruption, though, the move could be banned, because it would then stop being perceived as something intrinsic to the Pokemon that learns it, and more its own separate entity in the metagame.
 
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I actually think Scald performs a necessary defensive function in the metagame. Preventing bulky Water types from being extremely passive and/or set-up fodder helps keep all the offensive threats in check. It's a band-aid solution, and unhealthy due to the luck reliance, but it might actually be the lesser evil.

Of course the optimal solution (or it would have been, earlier in the generation) would be to ban both Scald and Sableye, and hope that other dominoes start to fall (probably beginning with Medicham).
 
I actually think Scald performs a necessary defensive function in the metagame. Preventing bulky Water types from being extremely passive and/or set-up fodder helps keep all the offensive threats in check. It's a band-aid solution, and unhealthy due to the luck reliance, but it might actually be the lesser evil.

Of course the optimal solution (or it would have been, earlier in the generation) would be to ban both Scald and Sableye, and hope that other dominoes start to fall (probably beginning with Medicham).
I disagree, and you only need to look at past gens to see why that isn't necessarily true. Players had to rely on phazing, status, coverage moves and double switching in order to prevent Water types from being set up fodder. Scald as you know, bypasses that almost entirely, since it's always the "easy" and optimal choice to make. It's also worth noting that offensive Pokemon also benefit from Scald (sometimes to an unreasonable degree, like in Keldeo's case). It's definitely one of the bigger concerns in each of the metagames, I feel.

But yeah, it's unfortunate that we never had a Scald suspect in Gen VI. I'm absolutely not pointing any fingers, but I imagine it will be a long, long while before Gen VII is settled to a point where we can suspect Scald.