Scarf-dos Team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by pidj, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    Yo, I'm back with another team.

    Updated team following trinitrotoluenes rate. Changes in red

    First point to note: I'm still quite new to competitive battling. Having said that I put quite a lot of thought in to this team and think I have something that seems to be going OK. The team has had moderate success but maybe it could be better if I was a better player!

    Second point: I first made this team before the genesect ban.

    Third point: I saw someone else using a scarf Zapdos and I thought that it looked like a fun check/counter Genesect that could surprise people. Short summary of that - it does.

    Team Building Summary:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    - So I started out with my scarf Zapdos. It was faster than Genesect and has access to Heat Wave. Simple.

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    - As Zapdos had access to Volt Switch I thought Volt-turn would be fun. So I added Scizor, who also covers Zapdos' two weaknesses

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    - I next added Vaporeon. Always wanted to try one and appeared to have fairly good defensive synergy with the other two.

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    - I wanted to add to my Volt-Turn core. I looked at potential other users and settled on Mienshao. I'm also a fan of Infernape but I decided to go with Mienshao this time (more on why later).

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    - I also like having an FWG core if possible and I like to have a grass type attack as back-up to hit grass-types with. I'm looking at you Gastrodon and co. I normally would go for Breloom but as I have a fighting type and no hazards I decided to go for Roserade. Ferrothorn was another option but I didn't want another x4 fire weakness.

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    - As my team was made for Zapdos and it has an SR weakness I thought I needed a spinner. Starmie is my spinner of choice.

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    - Celebi does pretty much all the same things Roserade did and outclasses it so in came Celebi for Roserade.

    So that's how I got the team!


    The Team


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    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @Leftovers
    Pressure
    248HP/76Def/184Sp.D
    2Atk/30Def

    Timid nature
    - Roost
    - Heat Wave
    - HP Ice
    - Thunderbolt

    As I said in the intro the purpose of using scarf Zapdos was to be my answer to Genesect. At 100 base speed it outsped Genesect by a point and would OHKO with Heat-Wave. I know Thundurus-t is another option to this set but I do like having bolt-beam and heat wave. I think it gives me very good coverage. Zapdos also outspeeds Gyarados and D-nite after one DD and will outspeed and OHKO Gyarados with T-bolt and KO Dragonite with HP Ice if the Dragonite is not at full health. I'm slightly hurt there by the lack of SR support. Now Geneseect is banned I'm tempted to try Thundurus-t but I think I'd like a fire type move in here somewhere. The attack spread on Zapdos also allows me to check rain teams and the grass component of sun teams. The STAB bolt-beam combo also deals with the Therians unless they're running scarf. It also functions as a nice revenge killer.
    Scarf-dos is dead, long live Scarf-dos. As I originally used Scarf-dos to counter Genesect I'm not bothered about removing the scarf. And not being trapped into a move helps for obvious reasons. I've changed my Zapdos following the suggestions from trinitrotoluene and the extra bulk and roost is really useful. I've lost a VoltTurn here but I gain one back with other changes so I'm happy. The moves haven't changed much so Zapdos still has great coverage. In not having any speed investment a Sub+DD Gyarados could now be an issue. Need to think about how to deal with that.


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    Scizor @Choice Band
    Technician
    248HP/252Atk/8Spe
    Adamant nature
    - U-Turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

    When I decided to use Zapdos I originally wanted to try to use a bit of a Volt-turn strategy. I didn't want to use Genesect and Scizor sprang to mind. I went with the standard Band set and it does it's job. It covers Zapdos' weaknesses well, hits hard, revenge kills and keeps the momentum going. Basically I use it for the same reasons most people cite for using it. I stuck 8 EV's into speed to allow it to (hopefully) outspeed other Scizors.


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    Vaporeon @Leftovers
    Water Absorb
    252HP/252Def/4Sp.D
    Bold nature
    - Scald
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    I'd never used a Vaporeon before and I wanted to try it out. I like it a lot. I wasn't sure what to use in the 4th slot but Toxic does the job nicely. Other options were Roar and Ice Beam (see the analysis :p) but Topxic helps and it stops me being completely walled by a Jellicent. I knew I wanted to try Wish support because my team would appreciate it. Scald for the potential burn to give me dual status. Vaporeon is also my only answer to Terrakion but it's still a 2HKO and coupled with Scizor/Zapdos/Starmie helps me deal with Garchomp. I couldn't use Chansey/Blissey as wish support because Terrakion would just rip me to shreds. As for EV's I just maxed HP and Def to give me as much bulk as possible.


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    Mienshao @Choice Scarf
    Regenerator
    4HP/252Atk/252Spe
    Naive nature
    - U-Turn
    - Hidden Power: Ice
    - Hi Jump Kick

    - Stone Edge

    My 2nd UU poke is the next and final member of my Volt-Turn core. This guy is essentially the reason I'm not running a FWG core too because this is the place that I feel is up for grabs for the fire type poke. I chose Mienshao over Infernape because of the simple reason that I wanted to try something different. Also, if I used Infernape I normally like to make it Scarf because it's an ideal counter to Sun teams IMO. Life Orb w/ regenerator works really nicely tooAs Zapdos isn't scarfed anymore Mienshao has been scarfed to become my revenge killer. It's not the fastest but so far so good. I used Drain Punch because I'm a wuss and am scared of a HJK miss (changed to HJK following a suggestion. Still scared of the miss). Stone Edge provides me coverage I'm otherwise missing. Fake Out to add some priority but if I'm honest I'm underwhelmed by it. Overall maybe I should give Infernape a try, especially if I change Zapdos to Thundurus-t, then I'll just have to deal w/ 4MSS on Infernape. HP Ice for Fake Out as Mienshao is now scarfed.

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    Celebi @Leftovers
    Natural Cure

    252HP/232Sp.D/24Spe
    Calm Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-Turn

    Celebi in for Roserade. An apparently glaringly obvious change. I spotted it and so did trinitrotoluene. Thanks to him/her for the set though. I wouldn't have known what to run. Celebi does everything Roserade did - it has natural cure, access to hazards (SR over Spikes, which is much better), a recovery move and it's a grass type. It doesn't absorb toxic spikes like Roserade did but that's not that much of an issue as I still have a spinner. Celebi has overall better bulk but doesn't hit as hard as Roserade, but it does have U-Turn and this is a largely VoltTurn team so all in all Celebi fits nicely and I'm pleased with it.

    OLD TEAM MEMBER
    Show Hide

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    Roserade @Black Sludge
    Natural Cure
    4HP/252Sp.A/252 Spe
    Timid nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Rest
    - Spikes
    - Sludge Bomb

    Another UU poke?? Yes it is but I feel that Roserade provides several good functions for me. It's my first status-absorber, my toxic spikes absorber, my only hazard setter, has a monstrous grass-type attack with Leaf Storm and what would be the G in my desired FWG core. I'd have preferred stealth rocks but I settled for spikes. That's a slight shame because SR would be a massive boost versus Dragonite. Roserade is relatively fast which is also useful and also has some good resistances. I've wondered if Celebi would be good here but as of yet I'm undecided. Thoughts are most welcome.



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    Starmie @Leftovers
    Natural Cure
    4HP/252Sp.A/252Spe
    Timid nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam

    My required spinner. I felt that in running Zapdos I needed a spinner. 25% health loss each time it switches in is not cool. So Starmie is my spinner of choice. I like it's speed. It has nice coverage, although similar to Zapdos. Tentacruel didn't seem worthwhile because I already have a water type status spreader and I'm not really too much of a fan of Donphan. It's a tough one for me and at the moment Starmie just seems like the best fit. Dropping one of it's coverage moves to put in Psychic/Psyshoch is definitely an option though.

    So that's my team. Please let me know what you think. It is UU heavy but I feel that the UU pokes generally are good options for the roles that I have chosen them for.

    Known Threats

    • I've tried to cover most of the top used threats in the OU tier and I think I've done an OK job. Terrakion appears to me to be my biggest issue and I think Keldeo has potential to be an issue.
    • Surprisingly a Jolteon is a pain in the neck. It's faster than a lot of my team and I don't have Earthquake(gasp! must be a noob) anywhere to hit it for SE damage. - Scarf Mienshao will hopefully help here!
    • I think Heatran could be bothersome because of the same reason but I'd like to think I've got it covered with Mienshao, Starmie and maybe even Vaporeon.
    • I have had issues with a Sun team but I think I would have fared better if I didn't have heat wave and stone edge misses at vital points in the game. - With extra bulk to Zapdos I'm a little better equiped now but still a threat.
    • Volcarona is an issue. If it starts boosting and Mienshao is down/slower I am in serious trouble.
    • With the changes I think Sub+DD Gyarados could be an issue. Yet to face one so can't confirm.
    Import/Export
    Show Hide

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 184 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Heat Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Roost

    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 248 HP / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Pursuit
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower

    Vaporeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 232 SDef / 252 HP / 24 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump


  2. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    I refuse to believe this team is so good that it can't be improved. For a start it doesn't have any Luvdiscs :p

    I hope its not so bad that its a lost cause too - so BUMP.
  3. TheRealCynthia

    TheRealCynthia

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    I like that you added a Roserade. Roserade is one of my personal favorites.

    BTW, Genesect is 'uber,' so you don't have to worry about him.
  4. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    Thanks.

    I first made the team a couple of weeks ago before the ban. I'm wondering if it makes the zapdos a bit redundant now. I'm undecided. It still has a surprise element that a scarf thundurus-t won't necessarily have.
  5. Nutrix

    Nutrix

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    Rocks would be really helpful for a few reasons:

    First they're easier to get up than multiple layers of Spikes. Second, you're going to be forcing a lot of switches with 3 Volt-Turners. Finally, you mentioned issues with a sun teem.. Just my thoughts

    Maybe replace Roserade? With Ferrothorn? Ferrothorn would still have a pretty powerful Grass-type attack, be able to set up SR and Spikes, and form a nice defensive core with Vaporeon. You'd lose a Fighting resist, but you'd still have 2 of them and a Wish-passer to make up for it. Also, if you gave it Gyro Ball, is could counter Jolteon pretty effectively.
  6. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    Hey Nutrix,

    Thanks for the rate. I'm a little wary of having two 4x fire weaknesses but I will give Ferrothorn a try. Thanks again.
  7. Nutrix

    Nutrix

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    I would think that it shouldn't be too much trouble, with 2 resists including Vaporeon. Just a nitpick, but Psyshock on Starmie would help against Terrakion and Keldeo, but I don't know what coverage move you'd replace.
  8. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene MY GIANT SIXTY CHARACTER ALL-CAPS CUSTOM LOSER TITLE OF DOOM
    is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,036
    It's actually kind of funny, because you mentioned using Celebi over Roserade, which is a suggestion that I am going to make. Specifically, you should use a Specially Defensive Celebi, which helps your team beat apart Sheer Force Landorus, which can set up with ease on Scizor and Zapdos locked into the wrong move, and Jolteon that lack Signal Beam, taking a major headache off your team. This change also gives your team Stealth Rock, something which every team needs to succeed in the OU metagame. Even with these changes, Volcarona will still be a problem for your team to face. It's because of this that I'd recommend going with either Scarf Mienshao over your current set or Scarf Infernape. The former is stronger, but slightly slower, and the latter is fast enough to speed tie with Scarf Terrakion, but at the cost of a bit of strength. Both of them also help contribute to your VoltTurn chain. Anyways, now that you have a Scarfed VoltTurner in the form of Mienshao / Infernape, I'd recommend making your Zapdos a Specially Defensive variant. This change gives your team much more durability on the special side, and it also gives your team a means of keeping Tornadus-T, and rain teams that focus entirely on it, down.

    Now, for some nitpicks. For Mienshao, I'd prefer it if you would use Hi Jump Kick over Drain Punch. For one, this gives it a much stronger Fighting-type attack. You're also using Regenerator on Mienshao, which allows you to be a bit more reckless with spamming Hi Jump Kick, since you can use it to recover some of the HP lost if you do end up missing the mark. For Starmie, you could opt to use Psychic over either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to take Conkeldurr down without a hitch. A summarized list of changes can be found below.

    Sets:
    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Calm | 252 HP / 232 SpD / 24 Spe
    Giga Drain | Recover | U-turn | Stealth Rock


    [​IMG]
    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf | Regenerator
    Naive | 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe | 30 HP / 30 Def
    Hi Jump Kick | Stone Edge | Hidden Power | U-turn


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    Infernape @ Choice Scarf | Blaze
    Naive | 108 Atk / 148 SpA / 252 Spe
    Close Combat | Fire Blast | Stone Edge | U-turn


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    Zapdos @ Leftovers | Pressure
    Calm | 248 HP / 76 Def / 184 SpD | 2 Atk / 30 Def
    Thunderbolt | Hidden Power | Heat Wave | Roost


    Nitpicks:
    • [​IMG] ----> [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
      • Life Orb set ----> Choice Scarf set*
      • Drain Punch ----> Hi Jump Kick
    • [​IMG] ----> [​IMG]*
    • [​IMG]
      • Choice Scarf set ----> Specially Defensive set
    *: Pick one of these, but not the other.

    These changes should make your team a lot more stable. Good luck with your team!
  9. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    Hey, thanks for the comprehensive rate. I really appreciate it. I've started testing your suggestions and I like the changes.

    Once I made the team I looked back at the sets to see if any of my choices could be outclassed by another pokemon. I saw the benefits of Roserade in Celebi too and it had rocks. I didn't know how to implement the change really and your recommendation seems like it will work. Having said that one of my test matches was against a mono-poison team so Celebi didn't make an appearance in that one. I do have a couple of questions regarding your Celebi set. 1. Is Recover and Giga Drain potentially overkill? 2. This is really just an observation but is Calm the best nature as it hinders U-Turn? I think I know the answer and I expect your recommendation was based on U-Turn providing me momentum rather than being there to hit hard.

    I've started with Scarf Mienshao and it's worked out nicely thus far. I've used ScarfApe before and I am a fan but it's nice to try something different. My Ape set I normally run would be 252Atk/4Sp.A With Overheat instead of Fire Blast as in your example. What's the value of the extra Sp.A EV's? Do I miss any important KO's with Overheat and 4 Sp.A EV's? I can see the benefit of not using Overheat due to the Sp.a stat drop.

    And the Zapdos set has been excellent so far. My only concern would now be Gyarados/dragons. With no speed investment I can see issues with Sub+DD Gyarados. Having said that the bulkier Zapdos set with Celebi makes my team a lot less frail which was one of the biggest issues I was having with it.

    Finally, you're observation is correct. If Volcarona starts to boost I am in trouble. I came across one before I made changes and at that point I just couldn't deal with it after a quiver dance.

    Thanks for your help.

    Tested Ferrothorn very briefly as per earlier suggestions. I normally like Ferrothorn but I was uncertain about the set to run here (apart from using SR) and as such it didn't seem to gel well. I will probably go back and test it properly at some point.


    EDIT: Updated OP with changes in red!
  10. King of Blades

    King of Blades

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    160
    Hi there.

    This is a good team, but I do see some changes to be made to it. First of all, your team looks quite weak to sun teams. Volcarona, a common sun sweeper, can outspeed your entire team after a quiver dance except for mienshao. Sawsbuck has great coverage on all your team and outspeeds it all under sun, except for scizor's bullet punch. When seeing this, it appears that the only stop to the chlorophyll sweepers, scizor, is stopped by ninetales and any fire sun sweeper. You also have no steels to absorb powerful dragon type moves. The easiest way to fix this is by replacing vaporeon with air balloon heatran. Air balloon heatran packs immunities to fire, and air balloon keeps ground moves from hitting. It also carries helpful resists to dragon and grass. This means that heatran can provide many an answer to the threats that plague your team.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @Air Balloon
    EVs: 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP | Flash Fire | Timid
    ~Fire Blast
    ~Earth Power
    ~Hidden Power Ice
    ~Flash Cannon

    Well, this is the standard offensive heatran, except for lack of stealth rock because celebi filled the slot. Heatran and celebi share perfect defensive synergy with each other, forming the celetran combo. Fire Blast is strong STAB. Earth power hits other heatran as well as rock and fire pokemon. Hidden Power Ice hits dragons. Flash Cannon is there because there's nothing better. At least it hits rock types stronger than earth power.

    Heatran provides great offensive power, and it can sponge a variety of dragon attacks and hit back hard.

    As for celebi, I would assume trini meant calm. Also, recover + giga drain is not overkill. Recover is a staple on any defensive celebi set. Giga drain only has five less power than energy ball, and it has the benefit of recovery.
  11. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    Thanks for the rate and for answering my questions. I've since had a look at the Celebi analysis and have realised the Celebi set came straight from there.

    Heatran looks like an interesting choice. My biggest concern with losing Vaporeon is losing the wish-passing. That's proved to be really helpful. Toxic Stalling has also been a real benefit. My concern with bringing in Heatran is Terrakion. At the moment I can use Scizor and Vaporeon (especially with wish passing) to get around Terrakion. Without Vaporeon I think that task could become more difficult.

    I will try the suggestion though and see how it goes!

    EDIT: Thakn you to whoever gave my team Luvdiscs. That's a first! :)
  12. pidj

    pidj

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    It's been a while but I have tested Heatran out now... and I have mixed feelings about it. It's yet to do anything really noteworthy but it's not letting me down either. I miss having Wish but that has not been a huge issue yet during my testing. I had huge trouble with a rain-stall team, which I think was an exact copy of the RMT called Envincible Armada. I had trouble with the Ferrothorn and Tentacruel on that team as I lost the Heatran early on and I obviously couldn't change the weather. I'm not too disheartened by the defeat though becasue the team got to #1.

    Any more rates?

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