Scizor (Full Revamp) +

[Colonel M]

We can discuss this. I dunno about making this exactly the standard set yet, but perhaps we can mention this in SET COMMENTS? I can easily add this in if wanted because I believe that adding a little extra bulk never hurt. But you are the Uber expert here Jibaku, so any other good Uber players should weigh-in about this too.

Here are the statistics for October, for reference.

| Scizor     | Usage        | 1990             |         |
| Scizor     | Ability      | Technician       |    81.3 |
| Scizor     | Ability      | Swarm            |    18.7 |
| Scizor     | Item         | Life Orb         |    44.9 |
| Scizor     | Item         | Leftovers        |    26.3 |
| Scizor     | Item         | Choice Band      |    21.9 |
| Scizor     | Item         | Other (3)        | <   2.5 |
| Scizor     | Nature       | Adamant          |    88.7 |
| Scizor     | Nature       | Careful          |     6.3 |
| Scizor     | Nature       | Impish           |     3.1 |
| Scizor     | HP EV        | High (150-200)   |    44.1 |
| Scizor     | HP EV        | Max              |    33.7 |
| Scizor     | HP EV        | Other (4)        | <   7.8 |
| Scizor     | Attack EV    | Medium (100-150) |    40.5 |
| Scizor     | Attack EV    | Max              |    35.9 |
| Scizor     | Attack EV    | Other (4)        | <   9.8 |
| Scizor     | Defense EV   | None             |    95.5 |
| Scizor     | Defense EV   | Other (2)        | <   2.0 |
| Scizor     | SpAttack EV  | None             |    99.8 |
| Scizor     | SpDefense EV | High (150-200)   |    47.4 |
| Scizor     | SpDefense EV | None             |    29.4 |
| Scizor     | SpDefense EV | Very High (200+) |    11.3 |
| Scizor     | SpDefense EV | Other (2)        | <   8.0 |
| Scizor     | Speed EV     | None             |    59.2 |
| Scizor     | Speed EV     | Low (50-100)     |    32.6 |
| Scizor     | Speed EV     | Other (3)        | <   3.4 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Bullet Punch     |    87.5 |
| Scizor     | Move         | U-turn           |    79.6 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Pursuit          |    79.4 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Roost            |    64.6 |
| Scizor     | Move         | X-Scissor        |    17.3 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Swords Dance     |    17.0 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Superpower       |    16.2 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Quick Attack     |    12.7 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Brick Break      |     7.6 |
| Scizor     | Move         | Other (6)        | <   3.6 |

Odd... we might have to emphasize how Choice Band Scizor works in Ubers too.

 

[Jibaku]

I think my EVs should be mentioned in the EV section, similar to Careful Tyranitar, because it appears that nearly 50% of the players are comfortable with Life Orb. The bulk from the defensive spread + Leftovers can obviously be handy, but at the same time it loses a significant amount of offense, meaning that whoever plans to use trapper Scizor must weigh whether if the power boost is worth over the bulk loss.

I think what makes it the standard set is the utility, and really much less of set ups. Scizor seems to find itself troubled to set up Swords Dances without many of its counters just swapping in and not really worrying about much. Bullet Punch IMO is a necessity because it lets Scizor pick away at weakened Rayquazas, Mewtwos and Darkrais. Pursuit can punish Kyogres stuck on Ice Beam, and U-turn punishes switch ins...unless it's Shedinja. Pursuit is -probably- the least useful, despite the set name "uber trapper", because you could simply just U-turn on whatever they bring in and counter it, and this is especially true if you decide to go with Lefties where Pursuit isn't strong enough to 2HKO a non switching Latias. Despite this Pursuit's still pretty useful when you want to score a kill on someone who's going to bother you later on, and helps punish choice attacks, and kills Shedinja.

As for CB Scizor, it pretty much follows the same thing but with much, much more power and inability to recover health. CB Scizor does crazy damage in ubers and can OHKO Dialga with CB Superpower. U-turn dents its counters so hard it's not even funny (unless it's Ho-oh), and Choice Band Bullet Punch does over 50% to Rayquaza so it's pretty scary. It's definitely viable.

CB Superpower from Max Attack Scizor to 276 Def Dialga: 368-434. That's a 13/16 chance of OHKOing with Stealth Rock against a 404 HP Dialga. Obviously Scarfdialga just plain dies to this.

CB U-turn does 39% minimum to 404/276 Kyogre.
CB U-turn does 60% minimum to 341/216 Kyogre.

Also I would like to mention to NOT maximize HP if you're using Choice Band Scizor. Because SR is very common in ubers, despite the increasing Darkrai leads, Scizor takes more damage from SR with 344 HP.

That's all I've got for now.

 

[Colonel M]

Sounds cool Jibaku. Now for Uber Scizor, would enough Speed for Shedinja do so it isn't exactly at max HP? And what other good benchmarks, other than max Attack, would you recommend? Just throwing the rest into HP. And damn, seeing those calculations make me want to play Ubers all over again.

 

[Jibaku]

You might as well just make it outrun Sheddy so you can catch it with Pursuit before it gets away with Baton Pass. I haven't caclulated any other benchmarks right now, though, so stick with enough Speed to outrun Sheddy, max Atk and rest in HP for now. It can always be updated later.

 

[green_flash]

Even tough it seems a shame using a normal move on Scizor now that it has all these new tools to play with, I am pretty firm on insisting on a mention of Return/Double Hit over U-turn on the Choice Bander. Historically, you will nearly always find good players using normal moves on Scizor in the past generations because of the lack of movepool, with not that bad results; and even tough DPP presents all of this new toys Scizor likes so much, you'll still find him struggling when it comes to hit Zapdos and Gyarados. Return lives a decent mark on both, 2HKOing Zapdos for what it's worth (20% residual damages grants the KO on a 252 HP/0 Def Zapdos switch-in if Stealths are in play), and hurts Gyarados as well (standard offensive set has a small chance at being 2HKO'd, facturing Intimidate but not Stealth Rocks). Maybe Return is still "too generic" for you; and so here comes Double Hit. 90% accuracy compared to 100 isn't without its flaws, though you have a slighty higher damage output (105 vs 102), a 12.109375 chance of one of the two hits being a critical hit (which really screws up Gyarados) and the capability of owning Focus Sash switch-ins and random guys putting up a Substitute in order to scout your move. Double-edge maybe could be worth a testing (you have a small chance at OHKOing Zapdos when Stealths are in play), I just do not like that much an oh-so-massive recoil on a Choice Bander.

 

[cim]

Multi-hit moves don't break Focus Sash.

U-Turn is very useful for maintaining pace in a battle and getting in Pokémon for free, so you'll need a bit more to pitch with than "2HKOs Zapdos with 20% residual and SR".

 

[green_flash]

Well, it OHKOs Zapdos with 20% residual damage and Stealths (you still 2HKO guaranteed without any support), which sounds very important to me given how much Zapdos is used (and Gyarados too). Having a generic hit on nearly everything is not bad too. Of course I know the importance of U-turning to a counter, I just think that being able to kill Zapdos rather than gettin' completely walled by him is, in DPP, an even more important task to accomplish.

 

[Darkmalice]

Sounds cool Jibaku. Now for Uber Scizor, would enough Speed for Shedinja do so it isn't exactly at max HP? And what other good benchmarks, other than max Attack, would you recommend? Just throwing the rest into HP. And damn, seeing those calculations make me want to play Ubers all over again.

Well, there's nothing seriously bad about putting EVs in Speed. I don't know any cases in which extra Att, Hlth or SpD EVs result in a 3HKO, 2HKO or OHKO difference. But I haven't seen a Shedninja in Ubers since Plat came out. Most Uber teams I see have Stealth Rock (and those that didn't may have not had to opportunity to use it e.g. my Kyorge OHKOs their SR Groudon.) And Shedninja would survive a Pursuit by a Focus Sash anyways. Rapid Spin is extremely difficult in Ubers and it's very rare, and no spinner can get past Giratina, ever.
Personally, I consider those EVs a waste, though I am very biased agaisnt Shedninja, who has never ever caused me problems, and 90% of those I faced died as they swap in. I think two different EV sets should be mentioned, to suit both sides, one with the Speed and one without.

 

[Colonel M]

Some EV suggestions:

Jibaku (Trapper Ubers)

Scizor @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 246 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Pursuit
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Now I have my own reasons to pick these EVs and item choice. First of all, the ordinary uber trapper Scizor is honestly not bulky enough to fit my team. I need something that doesn’t die in two Thunders from Latias, and the HP EVs also help when taking Outrages from Giratina-O or something. U-turn and Life Orb is a pretty bad combination imo, because 1) If you kill something with U-Turn, your opponent gets a free switch in to counter your replacement Pokemon. This can be good sometimes but it is bad for the most part, and 2) you still get Life orb damage after U-turning to someone which can limit your chances of switching back in, especially with rocks up. Losing a lot of power doesn’t really phase me because my team has a substantial amount of power already and I’d much prefer the bulk on Scizor who’s place in my team is to absorb moves like Spacial Rend, something that the normal Life Orb trapper struggles to do with no Lefties recovery, forcing it to Roost a lot, and Life Orb damage from U-turn which gives it problems switching in. EVs allow it to survive 2 Thunders without SR factored in from a 307 SA Latias, but people generally don’t run that much so I have better chance of surviving. With SR being common, though, this might not be an easy task. You need at least 271 SA on Latias, I believe, to even have the smallest non haxed chance to 2HKO Scizor with Thunder after Stealth Rock damage…I really don’t know how much people run these days. I can try to maneuver around it with the Sun I guess. But the bulk is still really handy.

Add

Skarmblisscounter

I've had success with a 252 HP / ~196 Atk / Rest in SpDef bulky Scizor with SD / Bullet Punch / Roost / X-Scissor which although walled more easily by heatran and skarm allows you to switch into Gengar and Tyranitar with "impunity" and also beats stuff like Rest Talk Gyara that can't kill you quick enough with Roost

EV section perhaps?

Caelum:

As far as the EVs go, generally it's your spread or max HP. I personally prefer a middle ground spread with enough to outrun Skarmory. Doesn't matter to me either way to be honest as long as its discussed in set comments.

Your missing Specs Scizor. ^_^ <---- IMPORTANT!

Yeah this seems good to mention too.

 

[Havak]

Okay, this is "done" now.

• Full Revamp is done.
• Sticking to the one Swords Dance set, with many mentions of alternate EV Spreads.
• RaikouLover's sets have been left as noted in Other Options for now at least. One reason is Jirachi pretty much outclasses the Rain Dance version, and the Swarm seemed a bit "meh" (it can basically be created within the Baton Pass set anyway).

I'm not sure what we'll need to discuss now, bar any spelling or grammatical errors anywhere. If enough people are adamant about adding a defensive Swords Dance set, then someone else can write it at a later date and it can be discussed further.

For now, if no one can find anything worth nitpicking at, we could probably do with adding this to the SCMS now so we've definitely got something on-site for members to refer to easily.

Anything else?

 

[Colonel M]

Grammar check as usual then update IMO. Good job Havak with what you've done.

 

[Caelum]

Arcanine in counters for Intimidate.

 

[Bologo]

On top of this, Scizor has the third strongest priority attack in the game with its Technician Bullet Punch.

Minor nitpick, but this is incorrect. It goes:

#1 Absol (Sucker Punch)
#2 Honchkrow (Sucker Punch)
#3 Arceus (Extremespeed)
#4 Scizor (Bullet Punch)

I suppose that if you go by the fact that he can boost his attack, it's the third strongest, but I'm not sure which one you're going by.

Will come back with some grammar edits.

<p>Scizor is without a doubt one of the most lethal physical attackers in the game. He sports 130 base Attack, Technician, Swords Dance and priority moves such as Bullet Punch and Quick Attack to accompany them. (It was a sentence fragment before) With all of this backed up by Life Orb, Scizor is going to be dealing a lot of damage.</p>

<p>Choice Band Scizor is a real force, being able to revenge kill many threats with Bullet Punch, or even tear through whatever switches in (no comma) with its 591 Attack stat (with Choice Band).</p>

X-Scissor does have a 10 base power advantage (no comma) though.

With the Special Defense EVs Scizor, has the ability to switch into Dragon and Dark Pulses from Latias and Darkrai, respectively.

<p>Life Orb is the best item for this set. It guarantees the OHKOs and 2HKOs (no apostrophes)

Light Screen, Rain Dance and Safeguard are stand-outs as they work well with U-turn and Roost. (sounds like a sentence fragment with the "being" there)

You could also meet somewhere in the middle, with enough EVs to outspeed minimum Speed Skarmory with a neutral nature (56 EVs) or minimum Speed Suicune with a neutral nature and maximum Speed, and boosting nature Marowak (168 EVs) with the remaining EVs going in HP.

Most good physical walls should fare well against the Choice Band set, such as Hippowdon and Gliscor.

If Scizor is carrying Roost, then it should come out on top against Skarmory: a Swords Dance Superpower also 2HKO’s. (colon needs to be used when you have 2 independent clauses, but the 2nd clause is explaining the 1st one)

Those errors aren't huge errors. This is actually a pretty impressive write-up if you ask me, especially considering the pressure of making such an important analysis. Good job Havak and CM.

 

[Jibaku]

Minor nitpick, but this is incorrect. It goes:

#1 Absol (Sucker Punch)
#2 Honchkrow (Sucker Punch)
#3 Arceus (Extremespeed)
#4 Scizor (Bullet Punch)

Actually that's still incorrect

1) Absol
2) Honchkrow
3) Arceus
4) Cacturne
5) Deoxys-A
6) Shiftry
7) Togekiss (Hustle)
8) Skuntank
9) Spiritomb
10) Slaking
11) Houndoom/Mightyena/Darkrai
12 (or 13/14)) Scizor

 

[Havak]

Wow, I didn't realize how low down Scizor really was (though I kind of just took this from the old thread and thought all the possibilities had been worked out, I should've asked I know...).

Anyway, I'll just update that error with "one of the most powerful" or something when I add Bologo's changes a little later on tonight (in about two hours).

 

[diinbong]

Actually, there are even more pokemon with more powerful priority moves. Shiftry's Sucker Punch comes to mind.

 

[Jibaku]

I'm not sure if "one of the most powerful" still applies when you have the 14th strongest priority move in the game. However, Scizor does have the 4th strongest non Sucker Punch priority move, so you can mention that.

 

[MetaNite]

Why not say "Scizor has one of the strongest priority moves, that hits even if the foe doesn't attack."

Then fit in something small noting that you are reffering to Sucker Punch. I'm not sure how to put it though.

 

[Havak]

Yeah MetaNite, I was actually just going to suggest that lol.

 

[Havak]

Oops, forgot to mention I made the changes to this already. It could still do with a lookover, but Scizor is pretty important so I'd like it to be added ASAP really.

I'd do it myself now, but Sage only wants Site Staff to add things.

Edit: Also just added Salac Berry and Liechi Berry to Other Options since "pinch berry" was mentioned with Swarm.

 

[darkie]

uploading

 

[Crystal]

I've been having success with a lategame Agility/Leichi/Swarm set... (Like Empoleon's TorrentAgilityPetaya set) The Iron Head Flinch really is good.

It gets stopped cold by the usual Scizor counters, though. @_@

 

[darkie]

evs/moves/etc ?

can you be a little more specific, please

 

[Crystal]

Err. Let's see.


[SET]
name: Agility SubLiechi (I guess...)
move 1: X-Scissor
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Agility
move 4: Iron Head / Brick Break / Baton Pass
item: Liechi Berry
ability: Swarm
nature: Adamant
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe

(Not intended to be [SET COMMENTS]...)
There you go. I suppose the main advantages over the Swords Dance/LifeOrb set are the fact that you now outrun things like Hidden Power Fire Celebi, and Heatran, which could otherwise revenge kill you easily. There is also the fact that you can abuse Iron Head's Flinch rate! :D
And, the typical anti-status properties of substitute are yours, too...

This set's power comes from the utilisation of Scizor's oft-overlooked trait, Swarm. This makes X-Scissor a very powerful move, and you can use it a lot faster than you'd be able to on an SD set thanks to Agility.

Iron Head is probably the best fourth option, despite the flawed coverage of Steel/Bug. Because of STAB and the mentioned Flinch Chance.

Brick Break is mainly for Steels, especially Heatran and Magnezone.

Baton Pass has the oppurtunity to give your Sub, Agility and Liechi boosts to another powerful sweeper should an appropriate wall (or other threat) appear.

:)?

 

[QibingZero]

I can't help but ask: why not Reversal on that set over Brick Break? By the time you get your Liechi, Reversal will be 80BP anyway, and that only increases to 100BP if you switched into SR. If the point of the set is to sub down and smack things hard, you might as well use the attack specifically designed for that purpose, right?

Oh wait, you're using an odd HP number anyway - so Reversal is getting maxed after all. I hope you weren't actually using Brick Break. O.O