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Seadra (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by erisia, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    [​IMG]
    "I'm as physically bulky as Tangrowth!"

    [Overview]

    <p>Out of the remaining bulky Water-types in the NU metagame, Seadra is the dark seahorse. It is almost universally ignored by competitive players due to its NFE status and somewhat lacking support movepool, which does not include moves such as Rapid Spin and Wish that give other bulky Water-types such as Wartortle and Alomomola their specific niches. However, underestimating Seadra can often be deadly, as it makes up for its lack of versatility in sheer physical bulk and exceptional offensive stats for a bulky Water-type. With Eviolite equipped and maximum EV investment in HP and Defense, even NU's most powerful physical attackers, Sawk and Swellow, can fail to 2HKO Seadra with their STAB attacks, whereas physically defensive Quagsire and Wartortle are usually beaten by these attacks. Unlike its competitors, Seadra has the offensive capability to directly threaten the sweepers it walls; Base 95 Special Attack lets it hit roughly 50% harder with its Scalds and Ice Beams than Quagsire, which is often enough to 2HKO many of the tier's sweepers. Some are even OHKOed if they are weak to these attacks, or have taken significant residual damage before Seadra comes in. Furthermore, the few supporting options Seadra has are relatively unique; Disable is a rarity amongst Water-types and is put to good use thanks to Seadra's above-average base 85 Speed. While it requires cleric support from teammates to truly shine, and while it lacks Special Defense and supporting capability, Seadra outclasses most of the more popular choices in terms of physical bulk and offensive power; making it a good choice for players who would prefer for their bulky Water-types to do something other than just sit there.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Disable / Toxic
    move 4: Rest
    item: Eviolite
    nature: Bold
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Seadra does not have a versatile enough support movepool for it to fill multiple roles on a team, but it fills the standard offensive tank archetype nicely. With the above EV spread, it has the equivalent of 314 HP / 475 Def / 187 SpD defensive stats, and thus has the same overall physical bulk as Alomomola, while packing only slightly lower special bulk. This means that Seadra can take physical attacks exceptionally well, with Seadra avoiding the 2HKO from many of the tier's common sweepers, and avoiding OHKOs even from boosted super effective STAB attacks. Any physical sweepers that lack a super effective move, and even some that don't, are going to have a very hard time taking out Seadra before they are either Disabled or killed by a Scald or Ice Beam. Swellow is usually KOed by a combination of Ice Beam + Toxic Orb recoil, whilst a -1 Sawk is 2HKOed by Scald 100% of the time. Likewise, many other offensive Pokemon, including those in the calculations below, are either hit super effectively by Ice Beam or hit decently hard by a STAB Scald, and with these attacks coming from Seadra's respectable 226 Special Attack stat, Seadra is able to take many of them out reliably with entry hazard support.</p>

    <p>As for those that can normally KO Seadra, most notably Eelektross, access to Disable and the ability to outspeed many of its targets can prevent the most potent of threats from laying a finger on it. Once an opponent, such as Coil Eelektross, is Disabled, Seadra can use Rest to completely restore the HP that the opponent worked so hard to deplete, whilst also removing any debilitating status effects such as Toxic poisoning. A physical attacker deprived of its best attacking option will most likely not even be able to 3HKO Seadra, meaning that Rest can actually be used without Sleep Talk with little disadvantage, so long as it outspeeds its target or manages to force a switch. If you do not fancy using Disable and would prefer being able to annoy the bulky Water-types and other walls that can switch into you, Toxic is a reliable choice as always, especially as the few Poison- and Steel-types in the tier mostly have bad matchups against Seadra.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The following damage calculations demonstrate how effective Seadra is at taking hits from the tier's hardest hitting physical attackers. Some of the most powerful neutral physical attacks only manage to 3HKO it, and many super effective or boosted attacks will also fail to OHKO.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculations">
    <li>Jolly 252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat: 45.22% - 53.5%</li>
    <li>Jolly 252 Atk Toxic Orb Swellow Facade: 40.44% - 48.08%</li>
    <li>Jolly 252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird: 44.9% - 52.86%</li>
    <li>Adamant 252 Atk Choice Band Emboar Superpower: 49.04% - 58.28%</li>
    <li>Brave 252 Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake: 41.08% - 48.72%</li>
    <li>Brave 252 Atk Eviolite Zweilous Outrage: 38.21% - 45.22%</li>
    <li>+2 Adamant 252 Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch: 59.23% - 69.74%</li>
    <li>Adamant 252 Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer: 78.34% - 92.35%</li>
    <li>+2 Jolly 252 Atk Leftovers Leafeon Leaf Blade: 85.98% - 101.27%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>However, whilst Seadra is amazing at taking physical attacks, it's entirely sub-par when it comes to taking special attacks. Although it can survive powerful neutral hits, such as Life Orb Haunter's Shadow Ball and Life Orb Gardevoir's Psychic, it will be forced to heal immediately with Rest, or remain crippled beyond use for the rest of the match. Furthermore, special super effective STABs and coverage moves, such as Thunderbolts from both Life Orb Magmortar and Eelektross, will almost always OHKO Seadra. Thus, when using Seadra on your team as a bulky Water-type, it is imperative to include teammates that can switch into special Grass- and Electric-type attacks and threaten their users; Specially Defensive Vileplume can be a good choice as it can also provide Seadra with Aromatherapy support and absorb Toxic Spikes, significantly increasing its longevity. Other clerics that can provide Seadra with the support that it desperately wants include Flareon and Altaria, who are also very effective at dealing with Grass-types. If you lack a Toxic Spikes absorber, Rest or a cleric, Seadra appreciates Rapid Spin support, as Toxic Spikes will render it useless, and the damage Seadra takes from switching into entry hazards unfortunately makes the difference between being 3HKOed and being 2HKOed against many opponents. Cryogonal is a good choice in this respect, as it can switch in on most Grass-types with ease and threaten them with STAB Ice Beam. Its extremely good special bulk also complements Seadra's physical bulk well, and as you now have a potent Ice-type on your team, Seadra can afford to run Disable or Clear Smog over Ice Beam without as many repercussions.</p>

    <p>Seadra has a few other options to consider when using this set, but they can be hard to recommend. Sniper is the default ability as Poison Point interferes with Scald's burn chance and Toxic's ability to stall out opponents in the end game, and Damp is pretty terrible considering the lack of Explosion users in NU, combined with Seadra's ability to tank them easily. The most notable optional move that Seadra can choose to use is Clear Smog, as this allows it to take down boosting physical sweepers with impunity, especially when combined with Disable preventing them from using their most effective attacks. If you do not want to use Ice Beam, Toxic, or Rest, this can be a decent substitute. Speaking of Substitute, Seadra can use it to block status and to survive powerful special attacks, but it is extremely hard to fit in over one of Seadra's other movepool options, and Seadra can deal with status with Rest if necessary. Using a specially defensive EV spread is a more direct way of achieving the latter effect, and because of Seadra's ridiculous Defense stat, it still has good physical bulk even when uninvested. However, in comparison to Seadra using an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe with a Calm nature, Wartortle is bulkier against both physical and special attacks, meaning that unless you absolutely need Seadra's extra attacking power and Disable, Wartortle is usually the better choice in this circumstance. Finally, whilst it may seem unusual for Seadra to not run Sleep Talk alongside Rest on its moveset, Seadra tends to be extreme setup fodder when using Sleep Talk as it can no longer use Disable or an appropriate attack at will. Even if it does run Sleep Talk, it will still be a sitting duck whilst asleep, and thus it's usually more useful to run a different support move instead.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>If you don't care about burning opponents, which is understandable considering Seadra's already phenomenal Defense stat, then feel free to use a more powerful STAB attack, such as Surf or Hydro Pump; the extra power allows Seadra to kill more sweepers and reduces its dependency on entry hazard support to secure kills. In a similar vein, Seadra can divert EVs from its Defense to its Special Attack to increase the power of its moves, but without maximum defensive investment, Sawk and Braviary stand much better chances of 2HKOing it, reducing its effectiveness as a physical wall. Icy Wind can be used over Ice Beam for its Speed lowering effect, which may allow you to use Disable more tactically in certain situations. However, Ice Beam is preferable as Seadra should be abusing its relative power as much as possible, and other teammates can use Thunder Wave to reduce the Speed of opponents more effectively. Whirlpool is a niche option that lets you trap unsuspecting opponents and Toxic-stall them to death, but similarly to Clear Smog and Substitute, Seadra does not appreciate giving up another of its moves to use it. Like its big brother Kingdra, Seadra can also use Dragon Dance, as it has similar offensive stats to Altaria and its Defense stat allows it to set up easily on many opponents. However, Seadra significantly lacks power as it can't use a Life Orb to boost its strength, its Waterfall is significantly weaker than Altaria's Outrage, and it has few good coverage options to run alongside its STAB. Furthermore, physical walls such as Regirock can take Seadra's Waterfalls all day despite them being super effective, letting it set up Curses and prepare a sweep of its own.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Whilst Seadra is excellent at filling its specific niche, taking physical attacks whilst hitting their users hard, and stopping sweepers with Disable, it falls short in most other areas due to its low Special Defense and poor overall offensive coverage. Defensive Pokemon, such as Mesprit and Misdreavus, can switch into Seadra's attacks with ease, and can threaten with Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball, respectively. Bulky Taunt users including defensive Glalie, and again, Misdreavus, can prevent Seadra from healing with Rest or stop it from interrupting their setup attempts with Disable. Jynx can switch in on pretty much any move that Seadra can use, proceeding to setup with Substitute, Lovely Kiss and Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Unfortunately, Gorebyss can also switch into it with impunity and sweep with Shell Smash if Seadra lacks Clear Smog. Overall, most opponents that are not physical attackers, that do not take super effective damage from Seadra's offensive moves, and are not stopped short by Disable or Toxic, can deal with Seadra effectively.</p>
  2. tennisace

    tennisace BAPBAPBAPBAPBAPBAP
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    Fucking ridiculous bulk, but stress that any special hit will do SRS damage.
  3. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    Yeah I faced this earlier today and LOL was this thing a fucker to take down

    [​IMG]
  4. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    Yeah I faced this earlier today and LOL I brought Jynx in but still

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  5. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, this is written up. This is my first time including damage calculations in an analysis, so I apologise for any format errors.
  6. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    I don't know how damage calculations works when it is against the Pokémon in question, but we need to make sure the format is right before anyone checks this.
  7. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Should I just remove the calcs? Seems like more effort than its worth in this case.
  8. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    I would, but you could mention one or two of those Pokemon that you feel are important in a sentence like: "This Pokemon can't 2HKO Seadra at blah blah" or something.
  9. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    It's fine to have defensive calcs. This is how DPP Arcanine's Specially Defensive set has them set up:

  10. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Ok then, but like I posted, I just wanted to make sure that the format was correct before we GPers check this, since there were a issue with the formatting in a set before (I think Special Combusken). Was waiting for clarification but didn't get any. Well then, this is ready for checks when erisiascape has changed it to the same format Oglemi posted I guess(?).
  11. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    And if I'm using a boosted stat, should I just put the +2 before everything else?
  12. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Yeah, that would be the most reasonable thing to do. So yeah, do that.

    They'll correct it if I'm way off.
  13. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    In which case, this is ready for GP checks. :) I removed some of the more obscure calcs for brevity's sake.
  14. macle

    macle &macle: I literally bring frogs into the bedroom
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    so many whilst.....
  15. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Check has been implemented, can GP give it a stamp?
  16. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Wait, what? Macle, you told me that ibo had stamped your check on IRC.

    [​IMG]

    GP Approved 1/2
  17. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Just in case someone else gets to this before I do (if I decide to check it tomorrow, which I probably will if that's not the case), add % behind all the first numbers in all calcs (for example, the first one would be 45.22%).
  18. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, I've changed them. Thanks for pointing that out.
  19. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Ok, it's tomorrow now (lol'ing). Placeholder. Checking this now.

    EDIT:

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    [​IMG]
    "I'm as physically bulky as Tangrowth!"

    [Overview]

    <p>Out of the remaining bulky Water-types in the NU metagame, Seadra is the dark seahorse. It is almost universally ignored by competitive players due to its NFE status and somewhat lacking support movepool, which does not include moves such as Rapid Spin and Wish that give other bulky Water-types like such as Wartortle and Alomomola their specific niches. However, underestimating Seadra can often be deadly, as it makes up for its lack of versatility in sheer physical bulk and exceptional offensive stats for a bulky Water-type. With Eviolite equipped and maximum EV investment in HP and Defense, even NU's most powerful physical attackers, Sawk and Swellow, can fail to 2HKO Seadra with their STAB attacks, whereas physically defensive Quagsire and Wartortle are usually beaten by these attacks. Unlike its competitors, Seadra has the offensive capability to directly threaten the sweepers it walls; Base 95 Special Attack lets it hit roughly 50% harder with its Scalds and Ice Beams than Quagsire, which is often enough to 2HKO many of the tier's sweepers. Some are even OHKOed if they are weak to these attacks, or have taken significant residual damage before Seadra comes in. Furthermore, the few supporting options Seadra has are relatively unique; Disable is a rarity amongst Water-types and is put to good use thanks to Seadra's above-average base 85 Speed. While it requires cleric support from teammates to truly shine, and while it lacks Special Defense and supporting capability, Seadra outclasses most of the more popular choices in terms of physical bulk and offensive power; making it a good choice for players who would prefer for their bulky Water-types to do something other than just sit there.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Disable / Toxic
    move 4: Rest
    item: Eviolite
    nature: Bold
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    [space]
    <p>Seadra does not have a versatile enough support movepool for it to fill multiple roles on a team, but it fills the standard offensive tank archetype nicely. With the above EV spread, it has the equivalent of 314 HP / 475 Def / 187 SpD defensive stats, and thus has the same overall physical bulk as Alomomola, while packing only slightly lower special bulk. This means that Seadra can take physical attacks exceptionally well, with Seadra avoiding the 2HKO from many of the tier's common sweepers, and avoiding OHKOs even from boosted super effective STAB attacks. Any physical sweepers that lack a super effective move, and even some that don't, are going to have a very hard time taking out Seadra before they are either Disabled or killed by a Scald or Ice Beam. Swellow is usually KOed by a combination of Ice Beam + Flame Toxic (it's more common than Flame) Orb recoil, whilst a -1 Sawk is 2HKOed by Scald 100% of the time. Likewise, many other offensive Pokemon, including those in the calculations below, are either hit super effectively by Ice Beam,[remove comma] or hit decently hard by a STAB Scald, and with these attacks coming from Seadra's respectable 226 Special Attack stat, Seadra is able to take many of them out reliably with entry hazard support.</p>

    <p>As for those that can normally KO Seadra, most notably Eelektross, access to Disable and the ability to outspeed many of its targets can prevent the most potent of threats from laying a finger on it. Once an opponent, such as Coil Eelektross, is Disabled, Seadra can use Rest to completely restore the HP that the opponent worked so hard to deplete, whilst also removing any debilitating status effects like such as Toxic poisoning. A physical attacker deprived of its best attacking option will most likely not even be able to 3HKO Seadra, meaning that Rest can actually be used without Sleep Talk with little disadvantage, so long as it outspeeds its target or manages to force a switch. If you do not fancy using Disable and would prefer being able to annoy the bulky Water-types and other walls that can switch into you, Toxic is a reliable choice as always, especially as the few Poison- and Steel-types in the tier mostly have bad matchups against Seadra.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The following damage calculations demonstrate how effective Seadra is at taking hits from the tier's hardest hitting physical attackers. Some of the most powerful neutral physical attacks only manage to 3HKO it, and many super effective or boosted attacks will also fail to OHKO.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculations">
    <li>Jolly 252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat: 45.22% - 53.5%</li>
    <li>Jolly 252 Atk Toxic Orb Swellow Facade: 40.44% - 48.08%</li>
    <li>Jolly 252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird: 44.9% - 52.86%</li>
    <li>Adamant 252 Atk Choice Band Emboar Superpower: 49.04% - 58.28%</li>
    <li>Brave 252 Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake: 41.08% - 48.72%</li>
    <li>Brave 252 Atk Eviolite Zweilous Outrage: 38.21% - 45.22%</li>
    <li>+2 Adamant 252 Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch: 59.23% - 69.74%</li>
    <li>Adamant 252 Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer: 78.34% - 92.35%</li>
    <li>+2 Jolly 252 Atk Leftovers Leafeon Leaf Blade: 85.98% - 101.27%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>However, whilst Seadra is amazing at taking physical attacks, it's entirely sub-par when it comes to taking special attacks. Although it can survive powerful neutral hits, such as Life Orb Haunter's Shadow Ball and Life Orb Gardevoir's Psychic, it will be forced to heal immediately with Rest, or remain crippled beyond use for the rest of the match. Furthermore, special super effective STABs and coverage moves, such as Thunderbolts from both Life Orb Magmortar and Eelektross, will almost always OHKO Seadra. Thus, when using Seadra on your team as a bulky Water-type, it is imperative to include teammates that can switch into special Grass- and Electric-type attacks and threaten their users; Specially Defensive Vileplume can be a good choice as it can also provide Seadra with Aromatherapy support and absorb Toxic Spikes, significantly increasing its longevity. Other clerics that can provide Seadra with the status-removal support that it desperately wants include Flareon and Altaria, who are also very effective at dealing with Grass-types. If you lack a Toxic Spikes absorber, Rest or a cleric, Seadra appreciates Rapid Spin support, as Toxic Spikes will render it useless, and the damage Seadra takes from switching into entry hazards unfortunately makes the difference between being 3HKOed and being 2HKOed against many opponents. Cryogonal is a good choice in this respect, as it can switch into in on most Grass types Grass-types with ease and threaten them with STAB Ice Beam. Its extremely good special bulk also complements Seadra's physical bulk well, and as you now have a potent Ice-type on your team, Seadra can afford to run Disable or Clear Smog over Ice Beam without as many repercussions.</p>

    <p>Seadra has a few other options to consider when using this set, but they can be hard to recommend. Sniper is the default ability as Poison Point interferes with Scald's burn chance and Toxic's ability to stall out opponents in the end game, and Damp is pretty terrible considering the lack of Explosion users in NU, combined with Seadra's ability to tank them easily. The most notable optional move that Seadra can choose to use is Clear Smog, as this allows it to take down boosting physical sweepers with impunity, especially when combined with Disable preventing them from using their most effective attacks. If you do not want to use Ice Beam, Toxic, or Rest, this can be a decent substitute. Speaking of Substitute, Seadra can use it to block status and to survive powerful special attacks, but it is extremely hard to fit in over one of Seadra's other movepool options, and Seadra can deal with status with Rest if necessary. Using a specially defensive EV spread is a more direct way of achieving the latter effect, and because of Seadra's ridiculous Defense stat, it still has good physical bulk even when uninvested. However, in comparison to Seadra using an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe with a Calm nature, Wartortle is bulkier against both physical and special attacks, meaning that unless you absolutely need Seadra's extra attacking power and Disable, Wartortle is usually the better choice in this circumstance. Finally, whilst it may seem unusual for Seadra to not run Sleep Talk alongside Rest on its moveset, Seadra tends to be extreme setup fodder when using Sleep Talk as it can no longer use Disable or an appropriate attack at will. Even if it does run Sleep Talk, it will still be a sitting duck whilst asleep, and thus it's usually more useful to run a different support move instead.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>If you don't care about burning opponents, which is understandable considering Seadra's already phenomenal Defense stat, then feel free to use a more powerful STAB attack,[add comma] such as Surf or Hydro Pump; the extra power allows Seadra to kill more sweepers and reduces its dependency on entry hazard support to secure kills. In a similar vein, Seadra can divert EVs from its Defense to its Special Attack to increase the power of its moves, but without maximum defensive investment, Sawk and Braviary stand much better chances of 2HKOing it, reducing its effectiveness as a physical wall. Icy Wind can be used over Ice Beam for its Speed lowering effect, which may allow you to use Disable more tactically in certain situations. However, Ice Beam is preferable as Seadra should be abusing its relative power as much as possible, and other teammates can use Thunder Wave to reduce the Speed of opponents more effectively. Whirlpool is a niche option that lets you trap unsuspecting opponents and Toxic-stall them to death, but similarly to Clear Smog and Substitute, Seadra does not appreciate giving up another of its moves to use it. Like its big brother Kingdra, Seadra can also use Dragon Dance, as it has similar offensive stats to Altaria and its Defense stat allows it to set up easily on many opponents. However, Seadra significantly lacks power as it can't use a Life Orb to boost its strength, its Waterfall is significantly weaker than Altaria's Outrage, and it has few good coverage options to run alongside its STAB. Furthermore, physical walls such as Regirock can take Seadra's Waterfalls all day despite them being super effective, letting it set up Curses and prepare a sweep of its own.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Whilst Seadra is excellent at filling its specific niche, taking physical attacks whilst hitting their users hard, and stopping sweepers with Disable, it falls short in most other areas due to its low Special Defense and poor overall offensive coverage. Defensive Pokemon,[add comma] such as Mesprit and Misdreavus,[add comma] can switch into Seadra's attacks with ease, and can threaten with Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball,[add comma] respectively. Bulky Taunt users including defensive Glalie, and again, Misdreavus, can prevent Seadra from healing with Rest or stop it from interrupting their setup attempts with Disable. Jynx can switch in on pretty much any move that Seadra can use, proceeding to setup with Substitute, Lovely Kiss and Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Unfortunately, Gorebyss can also switch into it with impunity and sweep with Shell Smash if Seadra lacks Clear Smog. Overall, most opponents that are not physical attackers, that do not take super effective damage from Seadra's offensive moves, and are not stopped short by Disable or Toxic, can deal with Seadra effectively.</p>


    Good, but incredibly long... ;.;

    GP Approved 2/2

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  20. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Okay, this is done unless people want to edit it for conciseness or something. Thanks for the check. :)

    And yeah, I'm going to be unexpectedly busy over the weekend, but I'll try to redo the Electabuzz thread on Monday. :/
  21. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    No issues here.

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