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Special Season 1: Alola, Solgaleo and Lunala!

Discussion in 'Battle Spot' started by Theorymon, Nov 17, 2016.

  1. Theorymon

    Theorymon Time to Jam to the Mania!
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    [​IMG]

    The first Battle Spot Special ruleset is now live!

    What is Battle Spot Special?

    Battle Spot Special is a ladder that is hosted on Pokemon Sun and Moon. Unlike the other ladders on cart, this one changes every season, with each season lasting around 2 months.

    These are Battle Spot's way of shaking things up. You never know what crazy ruleset Gamefreak will challenge us with next!

    The Gimmick This Time!

    Say Alola to Solgaleo and Lunala, because its 3vs3 pre Pokebank Ubers!

    The Rules

    -This is a singles ladder.

    -This is 3vs3. You bring 6 Pokemon, and choose 3 to send out for battle.

    -For this ladder, items are banned! Note that items are still fine on the other ladders and often in other specials, I guess gamefreak just didn't want people running Weakness Policy Lunala for this one!

    -Any Pokemon that is catchable in Pokemon Sun and Moon are allowed. This includes island search Pokemon and stuff that are usually banned, such as Solgaleo, Lunala, Magearna, Zygarde, and Ash Greninja! For a full list of allowed Pokemon, check out this handy datamined list! http://pastebin.com/jqZzdtTn

    -For more information, check out the regulations page: https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/battle/201/regulation/

    Viability List

    S

    Lunala

    A

    Magearna
    Solgaleo
    Alolan Ninetales
    Zygarde 50% (with Power Construct)
    Garchomp
    Celesteela
    Tapu Koko
    Tapu Bulu
    Aegislash
    Alolan Muk

    B

    Hydreigon
    Mandibuzz
    Weavile
    Incineroar
    Pheromosa
    Kartana
    Greninja
    Mimikyu
    Snorlax
    Gyarados
    Blissey

    C

    Alomomola
    Nihilego
    Necrozma
    Tapu Fini
    Tapu Lele
    Golisopod
    Toxapex
    Skarmory
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    EmmatheBest, Pilo, Solerme and 7 others like this.
  2. Theorymon

    Theorymon Time to Jam to the Mania!
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    To get this discussion started, I want to list the natures that would make sense to soft reset for in this metagame. Don't want to be stuck with a Lunala or Solgaleo with the wrong nature! I may edit this into the OP as well (and use this space for some other resource). There may be more viable natures as well depending on the set, but I just wanted to mention the obviously good ones first.

    Solgaleo: Adamant, Jolly

    Lunala: Timid (reason this is the only nature is because Lunala speed ties sound EXTREMELY deadly!)

    Magearna: Modest, Timid, Quiet

    Zygarde: Adamant, Careful, Jolly

    Ash Greninja: Timid
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    TheLastAce and DuplexBeGreat like this.
  3. Darvin

    Darvin

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    Jolly looks useful for preventing Zygarde-Complete from being revenged by Pheromosa if you aren't running Extreme Speed. Pheromosa hits 441 speed, but Jolly Zygarde-Complete hits 442 at +1.
    Theorymon likes this.
  4. Corrin

    Corrin

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    It's weird that they'd excluse the use of Z-crystals from the very 1st season. I was dying to try out some cheeky stuff like Z-Parting Shot or Z-CursePass, but oh well.

    Anyway, it seems like this could be a very slow metagame since there's only a handful amount of things that are above the 100 speed benchmark and a lot under 70-60ish so Trick Room could be a thing, specially with things like Wishiwashi that hit like a TOW missile but don't have enough speed to actually do anything before being bopped itself. However, as optimistic as I am about diversity, I could see the few speedy & powerful things that we do have available completely dominating everything else.

    It'll be interesting to watch what this season grows and develops itself into.
    Theorymon likes this.
  5. Theorymon

    Theorymon Time to Jam to the Mania!
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    Well, interestingly enough, Solgaleo, Lunala, and Magearna actually learn Trick Room. I don't think Solgaleo and Lunala have much use for it beyond getting the jump on faster Lunala while TR is up, but Magearna could be a good user of it against faster teams.
    Corrin likes this.
  6. mhykah

    mhykah

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    I'm looking through the list and Lunala seems extremely deadly with a great ability and a vast movepool. It might even be what the meta will center around, I'm struggling to find anything that can counter. Consider bringing hazards somewhere to break Shadow Shield! One idea I got was Mandibuzz like so:

    [​IMG]
    Mandibuzz (F)
    Ability: Overcoat
    Level: 50
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Foul Play
    - Snarl
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost

    vs Modest Lunala:
    252+ SpA Lunala Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 92-110 (42.5 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

    vs Timid Lunala:
    252 SpA Lunala Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 86-102 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    The idea is to Snarl to weaken Lunala's SpA then Roost. It can also live a Pheromosa High Jump Kick before knocking it out with Brave Bird

    vs Adamant Pheromosa:
    252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Mandibuzz: 120-142 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  7. Corrin

    Corrin

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    Yeah, Shadow Shield is definitely problematic but the thing with entry hazards is that they're complete momentum killers in 3v3. The one turn you waste setting up x or y hazard is the one free turn your opponent might need to make their move and win. It's not uncommon for Battle Spot matches to be decided in less than 3 turns--I've both won and lost battles this fast, so that rogue Stealth Rock might not even make a difference in the end.

    Another thing that I take from those calcs, besides how fat Mandibuzz is, is that Lunala + Pheromosa looks like a really fearsome offensive core.
    mhykah likes this.
  8. Theorymon

    Theorymon Time to Jam to the Mania!
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    Yeah from the discussion we had on the Smogon discord a few nights ago, we all figured that Lunala is going to be the Pokemon the metagame centers around.

    Because of this, I thought of a Solgaleo that could be used as a reaction to it.

    Sogaleo
    Ability: Full Metal Body
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 228 SpD / 20 Spe or 252 HP / 156 Atk / 4 Def / 76 SpD / 20 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    -Sunsteel Strike
    -Flame Charge
    -Crunch
    -Earthquake

    So the idea here is that I wanted a bulky offensive Solgaleo that could survive an unboosted, Modest, max SpA Moongeist Beam from Lunala. The first spread does that, and lets you KO Lunala with Flame Charge + Crunch. Since you outspeed Lunala after the Flame Charge AND break Shadow Shield, Crunch works out pretty well here, OHKOing even max HP Lunala after the Flame Charge! Earthquake is just here for random Fire-types and other Solgaleo, but Flare Blitz will hurt Steel-types more (and own Celesteela if anyone ends up using that). I guess you could also use Morning Sun to tank mons depending on how the metagame develops as well, but you will lose coverage!

    The other spread is the old spread. It takes physical hits quite a bit better, which is cool! However, the attack drop means that Flame Charge + Crunch wont always KO max HP Lunala.

    Regardless of the spread, the 20 Spe is to outspeed Gengar after a Flame Charge, since I expect that to be the fastest Pokemon that hits Solgaleo hard besides Weavile. You can outspeed Weavile, but it forces you to lose either a lot of bulk or power.

    I have some other Pokemon in mind to combat Lunala, including Clefable, Incineroar, and Alolan Muk, but I need to nail the EV spreads and movesets first. Just know that all 3 of them had bulky spreads in the making, and all 3 do lose to specfic Lunala sets sadly.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
    Khaytra, NixHex, cant say and 2 others like this.
  9. Bench Warmer

    Bench Warmer

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    Well if you want to 1v1 against Lunala, standard Weakness Policy Aegislash seems to be a good option because it can OHKO through Shadow Shield. You have to be very careful on taking chip damage because Moongeist Beam calcs cut it close.

    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 158-188 (74.5 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 158-188 (64.7 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 318-374 (130.3 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 126-150 (75.4 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 138-164 (82.6 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I'm a broken record but Aegislash was great in gen 6, it'll be even more absurdly pre-Bank. Lots of good resistances to all the new Bug, Fairy, and Steel types and lots of mons weak to its STAB.

    Chansey and Snorlax are more reliable checks due to immunity to Moongeist Beam but less versatile than Aegi. For stall teams, perhaps an Eviolite Type:Null? I've done no Psyshock calcs though, so those may be out of the question.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  10. GundamExia

    GundamExia

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    thankgod solgaleo didn't turn out to be a worse mega meta, sunfire steel is gonnna hit things hard. overall i am glad how good the cover legendary turned out to be. through cosmog it gets splash for some weird z-splash gimmick set, sweep anything and everything. feel the power of the sun

    also magearna is allowed in this?? lol wow
  11. Corrin

    Corrin

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    No items meta, that means Aegislash can't hold Weakness Policy. I personally think that physical Aegis is looking way better than special in this format and I'm pretty sure Lunala gets 2HKO'd by Shadow Sneak even if Aegi isn't fully invested; I'll be shocked if it isn't.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  12. Bench Warmer

    Bench Warmer

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    Oh damn I failed to realize that. I need to read more closely....
  13. I dont care

    I dont care

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    Any tips for a Xurkitree set? I heard he can use tail glow.
    Belly drum now recover you at full life and then take 50%, Azumarill seems really good, what do you think about?
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  14. Corrin

    Corrin

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    I haven't really grasped the new pokes yet so I can't comment on your 1st question, but Z-Belly Drum is not that much better than the standard Sitrus Set, tbh. Yeah, it allows you to set-up even if your Health is below half, but the Sitrus set has the benefit of potentially letting Azul's health at 3/4 instead of 1/2, which could come in clutch sometimes, and besides, with a Belly Drum set you'll want to set-up as soon as possible so you shouldn't be taking damage in the first place.
    I personally wouldn't run Normalium-z over Sitrus; I'd save that Z-crystal slot for someone else who might appreciate it a little bit more.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
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  15. I dont care

    I dont care

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    Oh wait, i did not know that was the effect if you use it as z-move. Sorry then.
  16. NixHex

    NixHex Feels like standing still for eons and eons
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    Since people are talking about Z moves fsr, I just need it clarified: they require the Pokemon to hold an item, thus they are banned and any discussion of Z moves will just derail the thread.




    Unless there is an exception for the Z crystals that I didn't see listed on the rules page?
    Theorymon and cant say like this.
  17. LegoFigure11

    LegoFigure11 :thinking:
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    There's not.

    Also, the ladder is completely dead. I was searching for over an hour yesterday and got 3 battles :/
    All of you Europeans had better join the Special ladder once you eventually get the game because it sure is lonely without you
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
    4lexander3, Theorymon and a0161613 like this.
  18. NixHex

    NixHex Feels like standing still for eons and eons
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    People not finishing the game yet is probably exactly why the ladder isn't packed. I myself have not finished (just moved onto the third island). Hopefully by the time I finish the game, activity will pick up.
    Theorymon and cant say like this.
  19. Theorymon

    Theorymon Time to Jam to the Mania!
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    BREAKING NEWS EVERYONE!

    Our old pal Jibaku just tested how Shadow Shield works, and as it turns out, Mold Breaker, Moongeist Beam, and Sunsteel Strike DO NOT BYPASS IT!

    This is big news, it means that Lunala speed ties might not be as brutal anymore! I guess Modest and Bold might be viable now too with that news. I still prefer Timid however.
  20. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let marco in here????
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  21. The Immortal

    The Immortal They Don't Want None
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    It's on PS! now. Let me know if there's anything wrong.
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  22. NOVED

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    It's saying Kingdra isnt legal when it should be.
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  23. Jhon

    Jhon Someday in the Rain
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    Zygarde is also being flagged as illegal.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  24. The Immortal

    The Immortal They Don't Want None
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    Kingdra should be fixed already, and Zygarde will be fixed on the next update/restart.
    ethan06, Corrin, cant say and 2 others like this.
  25. Theorymon

    Theorymon Time to Jam to the Mania!
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    Before I go back into my study cave, I got an update: While studying, I laddered a lot today, and got here:

    So basically I'm probably going to be #2 in the world for Battle Spot Special in the next update!

    Here are some impressions from my laddering today.

    1. Be warned: this ladder is sadly not as high quality as the other in cart ladders, as I ran into my fair share of people using ingame teams. Ladder isn't as active as I hoped either, but getting a match is sill reasonable, so this isn't some Rotations-like situation at least!

    2. Magearna is a LOT better than I expected! A lot of people are using multiple Dark-types for Lunala and Solgaleo, so Magearna can show those mons whose boss! Trick Room is surprsingly good in this format too, it allows Magearna to be bulky unlike Shift Gear, and it lets certain Pokemon go on a rampage. Shift Gear is still probably reasonable though, but with max HP, Trick Room Magearna isn't KOed by Solgaleo's Flare Blitz, which is a huge plus imo!

    3. I'm sure some of you are wondering: "Why the hell are you using Incineroar?" Well, I'm currently using Trick Room Magearna, and god damn Incineroar is INCREDIBLE under Trick Room in this metagame! Flare Blitz does a crap ton of damage to Solgaleo, OHKOs Magearna (who you thankfully underspeed), and Darkest Lariat owns Lunala once Shadow Shield has been broken. It also helps that Lunala won't OHKO Incineroar without a boost, and neither with Solgaleo thanks to Incineroar's decent bulk! Just be warned: Zygarde can be a big problem for this thing, since you will need a good chunk of damage to be already done so Outrage doesn't activate Power Construct. I'm actually considering Will-O-Wisp because of this, to at least burn the Dragon Dance variants (and also screw with Garchomp).

    4. I've been seeing a TON of Greninja. I don't think Greninja is bad, but I feel like it needs residual damage to really succeed, since It won't break through Lunala is Shadow Shield is up, and Moonblast is an easy KO on it from Lunala. While other Dark-types also fail to OHKO Lunala, they also tend to be packing more power than Greninja is (mainly Weavile and Hydreigon). I wonder if there are any decent hazards setters to choose from besides Garchomp and maybe Necrozma...

    5. Since so many teams were running Garchomp, Tapu Bulu is pretty cool for helping out Magearna and Solgaleo. Just remember though, Zygarde can still be a problem!

    6. A lot of teams have Zygarde but very few people were sending it out. At the very least, Zygarde is really bulky and is a great Solgaleo check, so I think further experimentation is a good idea! I've been using a bulky Dragon Dance set with 100 Atk / 204 SpD / 204 Spe to survive Lunala's +1 Moonblast and KO it with +1 Crunch after Shadow Shield is down. I imagine the Coil set may have its uses though.

    7. As expected, Lunala seems to be the most common Uber among competent players. It's more versatile than expected too, since I've seen them give up coverage for status moves (watch out for Hypnosis in particular) and Substitute.

    For now I have put up an early viability list for you people to chew on. I will update it more after my final exams are over. Feel free to discuss the intricacies of it, I might be able to respond during some small pockets of time!
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
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