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Season 4 Special Battle changed to Inverse Battles

Discussion in 'Battle Spot' started by Pyritie, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. Pyritie

    Pyritie

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  2. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    Holy crap, I did NOT expect Battle Spot Special metagames to go out of the way to change their mechanics! This is awesome!

    Anyways... Wow, how do you guys beat Mega Kangaskhan here? Normal isn't super effective vs anything normally, so now there isn't even a normal resist o_O
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  3. Aura Flare Riolu

    Aura Flare Riolu

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    Since every team is gonna have a Mega Kangaskhan, we gotta run stuff to stop it somehow. Thinking of bringing out the Swagplay unfortunately...But Mega Kangaskhan is more broken in Inverse Battles than Swagplay is so...
  4. ethan06

    ethan06

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    Due to the way immunities work in Inverse Battles, Normal is now weak to Ghost... so Shadow Sneak. But, also keep in mind that Ghost is weak to Normal... and that Aegislash is 4x weak to it. Ouch. Fast Psychic- and Ghost-types seem like the way to go, seeing as they resist Sucker Punch and often pack Shadow Ball.
  5. Pyritie

    Pyritie

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    can they survive a fake out though, which might see more use here than sucker punch?

    calcs are at level 50 and I fiddled with types to account for type effectiveness:
    252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 165-198 (121.3 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 27-31 (19.8 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 174-211 (82 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 204-242 (96.2 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO


    as an example

    specs gengar can revenge bulky kanga with a tiny bit of chip damage but can't switch in

    chandelure can't ohko with a scarf, has a ~50% to ohko with LO, and ohko's with specs, and naturally outspeeds bulky kanga but of course loses to speedy kanga

    maaan how are you supposed to counter this
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  6. ethan06

    ethan06

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    Fake Out is blockable by Protect, which is a fairly safe move considering Kangaskhan doesn't really have a setup move that bypasses Protect besides Substitute, which could see use to make it well and truly broken. The ideal counter to MKang in this format would need to be neutral to Fake Out, possibly resistant to Sucker Punch (no way to predict how often this move will show up - probably reasonably often given that it still has fairly good neutral coverage), faster than 100 base Speed and able to at least 2HKO with Shadow Ball. In order to meet the first two parameters, it would need to be a Psychic-type, and physically bulky Psychic-types that outspeed Mega Kangaskhan just flat-out don't exist.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  7. Pyritie

    Pyritie

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    ...power up punch? though yeah it's also blocked by protect

    also edited my above post before I saw your reply, sorry!
  8. Age of Kings

    Age of Kings of the Ash Legion
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    Oh fuck yes.

    RE: Kanga: Avalugg is the best physical wall in the Inverse metagame. It is also the most used Pokemon in the Inverse ladder on PS! at 1500 rating+ (i.e. not little kids).
    252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 148-175 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Without PuP to boost its Attack, Kanga will not be winning versus Avalugg 1v1. Since I'm guessing this ladder is 3v3, Avalugg can afford to eschew Rapid Spin in favor of Toxic or more coverage.

    Think outside of the box because Ice is one of the better defensive types in the tier!

    P.S. Immunities gained from abilities are still retained. Levitate, Flash Fire, Water Absorb etc still grant their immunities so don't you go using EQ on Latios.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  9. Aura Flare Riolu

    Aura Flare Riolu

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    It's amusing how crazy this Metagame is. Suddenly Steel types have so many weaknesses, Garchomp gets destroyed by Pikachu, heck Mega Kangaskhan has a 87.5% chance to OHKO Aegislash-Shield...with Fake Out!

    I do hope they release a patch to allow this over the Wi-Fi with friends.
  10. Vryheid

    Vryheid fudge jelly

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    I got in the top 5 on the Inverse ladder before the big reset and I still play from time to time, and from what I've seen the core strategies haven't changed much. Stall cores still rule the day and Curselax (a set that I pretty much introduced to the ladder) is still hella powerful at winning games. Of course, Mega Kang is going to throw a wrench into the meta, but we've dealt with tons of bulky Normal types in the past and it honestly isn't too much for established teams to handle.

    Since there haven't been any really great guides for helping people get into the meta, here's a general strategy to winning in 6v6 Inverse:

    1. Toxic/Rocky Helmet stall all their offensive threats to death with Avalugg/Chansey, wiping out all the Steels/Poisons immune to it with Jolteon/Mega Kang

    2. Send Snorlax in when they invariably send in Chansey to try to Aeromatherapy/Wish up their battered team

    3. Curse up and sweep

    Okay, so it's never going to be that easy against an experienced player, but it will allow you to beat 99% of players who attempt to win with a standard OU team. Here's a team I came up with using Mega Khan that will consistently threaten practically any team archetypes:

    Team Parallax Omega Destroyer Fist (open)
    [​IMG] Avalugg @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Roar
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin

    THE BEST physical wall in the tier, it is practically mandatory on every team to prevent them from being laid to waste by all the ridiculously hard hitting physical normal types like Swellow, Ambipom, and Diggersby. Come into one of these threats and choose the appropriate move, Toxic usually being the best option. Avalugg is also your best answer to Mega Khan- it will ALWAYS beat Mega Khan 1v1 thanks to Rocky Helmet + Recover, though it has about a 50% chance of dying in the process if you let it hit you with a +4 Return. Generally, if they Return/Fake Out you you need to be spamming Recover, if they Power Up Punch you need to Roar it next turn (unless it's been previously weakened and can't survive a second turn of Rocky Helmet damage). Leftovers is not an option because you absolutely need to be punishing Power Up Punch and Fake Out. Bold/0 IV nature is used to minimize Swagger damage- you should NOT be using Avalugg to deal any sort of damaging attacks. As the blockhead will have tons of opportunities to switch in, it is also the best spinner in the tier and should be used to stop Spikes/Sticky Web from giving your team a hassle.

    [​IMG] Snorlax @ Leftovers
    Ability: Immunity
    EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 112 SDef / 16 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Curse
    - Return
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest

    The beast. This monster will be your win condition in many, many games, as it has the sheer special bulk to tank even super effective Ghost type moves and hit back hard with Return. The seemingly random speed stat is used to outpace other Snorlax at +6 in a Curse war, which happens more often than you might think (especially if your opponent is getting desperate). Immunity vs Thick Fat is a tough choice, but I've generally found that Immunity is better because Snorlax really hates having to constantly use Rest against Toxic stallers and when Toxic Spikes is up. Try to send in Snorlax on either a sleeping move (from something like Amoonguss or Smeargle) or on a fat wall like Chansey, but be aware that Avalugg is too bulky to be threatened after one boost and will almost invariably phase you out. If their only defense against Snorlax is Avalugg, however, a last-Pokemon Snorlax sweep can practically guarantee you the win.

    [​IMG] Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Aromatherapy
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss

    In much the same vein as Avalugg, Chansey is your primary defense against Boomburst Explouds and Draco Meteor spammers who would otherwise rip through teams. Chansey generally definitely needs Toxic and Aeromatherapy to be successful, though Wish passing is viable if you are willing to lose access to Seismic Toss. Mega Gengar is a huge threat if you don't have Toss, however, and losing Chansey early can potentially be game ending.

    [​IMG] Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
    Ability: Parental Bond
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Power-Up Punch
    - Return
    - Sucker Punch

    The obligatory monstrously powerful Normal sweeper that seems to be present in every Inverse team, this guy will almost certainly get 2-3 KOs in every match if you abuse Fake Out and don't let it get killed against opposing Avalugg sets. Remember that nothing resists Normal in Inverse, so even threats like Aegislash which would normally have no problem against Kang cannot stay in against super effective Returns. There's really nothing you should be changing in this set, as Kang will be doing plenty of damage already with his priority options and needs all the bulk it can get to switch in over and over again.

    [​IMG] Jolteon @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Shadow Ball
    - Signal Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Fantastic lead that can threaten bulky Grass types and all those extremely annoying Diggersby sets with Volt Switch, punch through Aegislash/Gengar with Signal Beam, and finish off weakened Normal types like Exploud or Ambipom with a devastating Shadow Ball. An Earthquake resist is rare in the meta but sometimes useful if you can predict one about to rip up Dragonite. Hidden Power Grass OHKOs Volcarona, Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame (watch out for Brave Bird though) and Salamence. Can potentially be set to Modest for even more Snorlax/Chansey breaking power, but really, you should be using Mega Kang/your own Snorlax to force them out.

    [​IMG] Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
    Ability: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 96 SAtk / 160 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Extreme Speed
    - Ice Beam
    - Dragon Claw

    Great mixed stallbreaker that can obliterate Avalugg/Chansey cores and is borderline unstoppable if Weakness Policy gets activated (which it probably will, thanks to it having a bunch of weaknesses). Generally saved until lategame when it an opponent is trying to toxic stall a game out, at which point Dragonite can set up and sweep. This set is also your best Cloyster counter, who can only OHKO Dragonite with a +2 Hydro Pump if Multiscale is down. Lum Berry is also also an option here, as well as sets using more special investment and Blizzard to try to OHKO Avalugg before it can Roar. This set has just enough speed to outpace the Genies after a Dragon Dance boost, as everything faster tends to get blown apart by Extremespeed.


    This all being said- I am still not clear from looking at Nintendo's page whether or not this is a 3v3 or 6v6 meta. In the event that it is a 3v3 meta, a core consisting of the Avalugg, Chansey, and Mega Kang sets is probably an excellent bet here- barring shenanigans like Trick, the core will stall everything to death and still have the power to clean house. Obviously Rapid Spin will not be necessary (consider using Mirror Coat instead), and you might try going max physical bulk on Chansey, but other than that the team is pretty solid. Snorlax is also a potential replacement for Chansey or Mega Kang if you are predicting Sleep shenanigans, but since 3v3s tend to lean more towards hyperoffense it may not have as many chances to set up.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
    Pyritie likes this.
  11. Pyritie

    Pyritie

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    Cool team! Only thing I'm curious about is how much of a role hazards are going to play. From my experience, hazards are almost never seen in 3v3 compared to 6v6, so I'm unsure if the rapid spin support is necessary or not. Also like you said, 3v3 is way more offensive than 6v6 is
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  12. JeremiahBrewski

    JeremiahBrewski

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    So, my post I had in the wrong forums. Here are my thoughts.
    Normal. Mega Kangaskhan just got stronger. Pretty much all the Normal Type drastically. The one in particular is piquing my interest is Ambipom.

    Ambipom @ Silk Scarf
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Nature: Jolly
    Ability: Technician
    - Fake Out
    - Last Resort
    -
    -

    I know this build is not terribly original. Also leans towards gimmicky, but think about it. Normal gains three types it is SE against and nothing is resistant to it. Fake Out gets a buff from STAB, Technician, and Silk Scarf. Also throw in that auto flinch. Baller. Since after that first Fake Out you have no available moves to use, Last Resort is your last resort (heh). 140 Base Power also with buff from STAB and Silk Scarf. Potentially will throw off a lot of people's game with the solid Attack power and Speed that Ambipom has.

    The other one that stands out to me is Mamoswine.

    Mamoswine @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Band
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Nature: Adamant / Jolly
    Ability: Thick Fat / Snow Veil / Oblivious
    - Ice Shard / Icicle Crash
    - Earthquake
    - Return
    - Stone Edge / Rock Slide

    So this guy. With that Ground/Ice typing, he comes out having five Resistances (Fire, Water, Grass, Fighting, Steel) and only one Weakness (Poison). I am sure my EV set up is still pretty basic and standard, but that doesn't make it any less effective. Even though Ice has lost a lot of what it was super effective against, (Dragon, Ground, Grass, Flying) it has gained effectiveness against Fire, Water, and Ice.

    I see Ice being quite a popular type in this format. I personally prefer the priority of Ice Shard, but I can see Icicle Crash being very effective with the extra attack power and chance to flinch. Similar situation with Earthquake, I can also see Grass being quite popular and Earthquake will have very good effectiveness over that. Return is the new move I added since Normal is what I believe the most common Pokemon type in this format. It can now hit Ghost and is super effective against Rock and Fighting. Add that to Mamoswine's huge attack power. You know where this is going. I was thinking of going with the extra power in Stone Edge, but Rock Slide is still likely to be more popular due to its better accuracy and chance to flinch.
  13. BlakDragon

    BlakDragon

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    Mamoswine would also be weak to electric-type attacks in this metagame; immunities become weaknesses.
  14. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Is there anything that can kill Kangaskhan in one hit? Preferably something reliable.
  15. Age of Kings

    Age of Kings of the Ash Legion
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    Normal's only weak to Ghost and Ghost types are weak to Normal so any check should outspeed Kanga. Unfortunately only Gengar, Mismagius, and Froslass outspeed Kanga. Timid LO Gengar comes really close to an OHKO but stops just short:
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 174-211 (82 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 168-198 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 Timid Mismagius manages an OHKO if it manages to get NP off, but Fake Out OHKOs Mismagius and Gengar (87.5% chance of OHKO on Mega Gengar) so neither of them can stay in. The problem is that most hardhitting Ghost types are really frail and susceptible to Fake Out or something else, and the usual burners can't get away with burning it (252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Banette: 177-208 (103.5 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO). I did all calcs with Adamant 252 HP/252 Atk so you might have a better time versus Jolly but I wouldn't take that chance.

    I posted calcs above, Avalugg can tank Kanga pretty well and because it gets sustain in Recover, you can safely run Rocky Helmet over Leftovers. You should run Avalugg because it's one of the best, if not the best physical tanks in the tier - the fact that you won't have to run Rapid Spin for 3v3 makes it even better so you can run Toxic or something to whittle things down while it takes hits like a champ.
  16. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Avalugg, eh? It may not be as effective as my bulky Yveltal, or have Foul Play, but I'll give it a try. Thanks.

    One thing though: you know how Blissey & Chansey max out their Defense stat? Should I max out Avalugg's Sp. Def in this case?
  17. Age of Kings

    Age of Kings of the Ash Legion
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    Really depends in a 3v3 format, I can't give you a straight answer. However, I would personally go 252 HP/252 Def Relaxed (to beat other Avalugg to the 120 BP Avalanche and for Gyro Ball if you choose to run it). Most of its useful resistances (Steel, Rock, Fighting) are physical and is the best answer in the tier to Mega Kanga, Mawile, and most (but not all) physical Pokemon. I would stack on its strong point as much as one can because walls like that are few and far between and given the hits it's supposed to tank, it needs all the defense it can get if you want to abuse Rocky Helmet. Keep in mind that unlike Chansey, Avalugg has Sturdy to fall back on in an emergency.
  18. Guilan

    Guilan

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    YEY! Can't wait to try this out.
  19. ethan06

    ethan06

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    Totally wanna try out Parasect as it gets two 4x resists (Fire is 2x with Dry Skin) and two possible immunities to types it would otherwise be weak to thanks to Dry Skin and Air Balloon (should you choose to run it; it's a convenient way to dodge Ground attacks but Leftovers is probably generally better for a SubSeed set). Spore is a ridiculous move in whatever format it's in so there's that, and it has some useful resistances to take advantage of to start sleeping the whole meta. Here's a sample set, I guess:

    Parasect @ Air Balloon
    Impish
    Dry Skin
    252 HP/252 Def/4 Sp. Def
    -Spore
    -Substitute
    -Leech Seed
    -Protect

    Checking Kang if Avalugg fails is an interesting topic. The only Pokémon with a Defense stat equal to or higher than 125 that are not weak to Normal (not counting illegal legendaries): Avalugg, Cloyster, Torkoal, Leafeon, Uxie, Tangrowth and Gliscor. It's a fairly uninspiring palette of Pokémon, and obviously Avalugg is the best of those.

    Cloyster seems to work almost identically to Avalugg, with access to Rapid Spin, Ice Shard and a strong Ice STAB. It has a few advantages in Skill Link Icicle Spear and Rock Blast, Water STAB and the ability to lay Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but it also has significantly less HP and lacks Recover so I don't see it contesting Avalugg's dominance too much. Torkoal is crippled by no recovery but gets Will-o-Wisp, so it has a better bet at shutting Kang down than any other Pokémon on this list. However, it's not good for much afterwards, as a RestTalk set isn't conducive to a move like Will-o-Wisp and Torkoal isn't bulky enough to fish for Lava Plume burns in front of Mega Kangaskhan. I doubt anything is. Uxie can't really do anything in return, even though it resists Sucker Punch and takes little from Power-up Punch; it can get screens up, however, and phaze with Yawn. Leafeon and Tangrowth both get semi-reliable recovery in Synthesis and Tangrowth can use it's Assault Vest set to decent effect here, but neither Pokémon can significantly damage Kangaskhan enough to stop it (even at +2 Leafeon needs a Life Orb to have a chance to OHKO with Leaf Blade). Leafeon, however, is a decent attacker in it's own right with a set of Swords Dance/Synthesis/Leaf Blade/Return. Lastly, Gliscor has a decent chance thanks to Poison Heal and can land Toxic on Kang in return but will most likely need to run Roost and Toxic Orb together to stay in the running. Here's some more sets for the viable-looking ones:

    Leafeon @ Life Orb
    Adamant
    Chlorophyll
    252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
    -Swords Dance
    -Synthesis
    -Leaf Blade
    -Return/X-Scissor

    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Impish
    Poison Heal
    252 HP/232 Def/24 Atk
    -Roost
    -Protect
    -Earthquake
    -Return

    Also worth noting that all Water-types are now completely destroyed by Freeze Dry, as the secondary effect remains the same... Lapras? Vanilluxe?
  20. Vryheid

    Vryheid fudge jelly

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    I've been trying out the team I posted here on the ladder, with the modification of Mirror Coat over Rapid Spin for Avalugg. Turns out it is indeed pretty good at stopping Kang- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/xybattlespotspecial4-117734916

    Dragonite has also saved me a surprising number of times, the damage it can deal with Extremespeed after a Weakness Policy boost is phenomenal.
  21. Dragonbums

    Dragonbums

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    My head is already reeling. Oh man this is gonna be fucking fun!
  22. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Question: if I decide to use Ditto, what should its Hidden Power be?
  23. ethan06

    ethan06

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    ^Grass. It hits a total of 7 types super-effectively, including Bug, other Grass-types, and Poison-types, and is only resisted by Water, Ground and Rock. The second best one is Bug.

    ----
    The Inverse Battle ladder goes up tomorrow, so here's a few more thoughts I had: DD Mega Gyarados looks to be quite fearsome here as a cleaner and sweeper. With Intimidate before mega-evolving and Mold Breaker afterward, Gyarados has a fair chance of setting up on some of the meta's most common Pokémon. Waterfall/Ice Fang/Earthquake has great coverage even here, allowing it to put severe dents in most Grass- and Bug-types. Water/Dark is a much better typing in Inverse, allowing it to hard-wall Specs Jolteon and set-up as it brings in a check. Unfortunately, Avalugg still walls it even after a boost, so running something that can OHKO it is recommended. (An interesting thing to note here is that Mega Gyarados is capable of 2HKOing Avalugg with Ice Beam with only a small amount of Sp. Atk investment - 52 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%))

    Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
    Naughty
    Intimidate
    252 Atk/204 Spd/52 Sp. Atk
    -Dragon Dance
    -Waterfall
    -Earthquake
    -Ice Beam

    Speaking of things that can bring Avalugg to Sturdy, Abomasnow is able to strip Avalugg of it's health without any investment whatsoever, and thanks to it's massive swathe of resistances can afford to set in front of a team and spam Blizzards as much as it likes. On top of that, it can easily tank an Avalanche and knock off Avalugg's last sliver of health with little trouble due to naturally higher Speed, unless of course it Mirror Coats, in which case it's done it's job and given your physical win condition the opportunity to sweep.

    re the EV spread: it needs to run a Life Orb and at least 212+ investment in Special Attack before it's able to guarantee a 2HKO on Kangaskhan with Shadow Ball. A Specs set is probably better as Abomasnow's impressive list of resistances and decent bulk means that a Life Orb would be counterproductive, and Specs allows for a greater investment into bulk (with Specs, Abomasnow only needs to invest 60+ into Special Attack to guarantee the 2HKO). Here's my set.

    Abomasnow @ Choice Specs
    Modest
    Snow Warning
    252 HP/196 Def/60 Sp. Atk
    -Blizzard
    -Shadow Ball
    -Giga Drain
    -Hyper Beam

    (Hyper Beam for the last hurrah against a Ground-type or something that takes less damage from Abom's other moves)

    Oh, the gimmicks. This meta will be so much fun~
  24. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Okay, so its Grass or Bug then. Thank you ethan.
  25. BlakDragon

    BlakDragon

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    The format's live now, yes cool.

    Played a few battles today; I learned so far that Umbreon with Rocky Helmet matches up against Mega Mom pretty well;
    Umbreon can carry Inner Focus so it can't lose turns from flinching and can answer back with Foul Play,
    which will fell the beast if she tries to boost. D:
    Mega Mom will still win this matchup if it already has boosts to play with before Umbreon can move.

    Dang it I want to play this format more but I also need to getting a team together for the International Challenge of May.

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