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Season Unending

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Intergalactic, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    [​IMG]

    Hello there, Smogon. Intergalactic here with my fourth RMT, first of the new year, and probably the last for a good while. Big loss. But anyway, returning to Smogon after a couple of weeks otherwise preoccupied only to find that a ban on Genesect had been put in place was a surprise, and not a pleasant one at that. I'd had a team in the works built around a Genesect set, something that nothing else could replace. I'd not had a chance to post that before I left for a while, so it was obviously time to make a new beginning with something else.

    Even with Genesect gone, the concept of stall teams, still my personal favourite, faces a challenge with the new hard-hitting Dragon-type in the tier - Kyurem-B, of course. It has things able to slow it down, yes, but it's hard on anything you can put in any team. As with my last RMT - Son of Hyperion - I wanted to aim more towards the offensive side of battling, still having not had much experience with it - nowhere near as much experience as I have with stall teams, anyway. Able to use Garchomp to good effect in my previous team, I decided that it was again going to be the lynchpin of the team.

    Now, when I say that I want to aim for an offensive team, I took that head-on this time, no playing around with new Pokémon, or testing weather and how it changes battles in my favour like last time. This was going to be a, hopefully, full-on hard-hitting team, with the ultimate aim to put as much pressure as possible on the opponent in as short a time as I could. Without wanting to resort to a generic-looking Hyper Offensive team, I would decide to not go down the route of using a Deoxys-D, or abusing xDragxMag in any way (not just because I have a personal vendetta against all forms of Deoxys).

    I've said before, I am by no means a good battler. I can make teams that seem to work on paper, hell, ones that even work when put into action, but I am not good with using teams that other people see as great. The last two RMTs I've made here, I've only been able to ladder as high as ~1300 on Pokémon Showdown! However, this seems to be a change. I'm still battling poorly, but it's somehow bought me some satisfaction while laddering, hovering around the high-1500s and (very) low-1600s on the simulator under the alt Fries With That? - while it's by no means impressive when compared to any of the huge and successful players of the OU tier here, it's definitely impressive when compared to what I can usually manage with "good" teams. I've not been playing well, so it must be the team, right?

    To conclude this introduction, the short etymology of the team's name. I've gotten back into playing The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim lately (don't worry, there's more meaning to it than that), and one of the quests is named Season Unending, related to a favourite quote of mine from the game. "They may put their weapons down for a moment, but only to gather strength for the next bloodletting. They are not yet tired of war. Far from it. Do you know the ancient Nord word for war? 'Season Unending'... and so it has proved."


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    [box]I did say this was an offensive team, and that is what I aimed for right off the bat. Considering the current metagame, a heavily offensive approach is probably the best - this is coming from someone that wants to believe stall is still as dominant as it once was - so I got to thinking; "what can I use to form a highly damaging core?" It was an easy question to answer. Terrakion and Garchomp, one relative newcomer that threatens most teams and the defining force of an entire generation, both in OU together. I know how popular teams with two Choice Scarf Pokémon are at the moment, and so I decided that I should try that with a little twist. Not caring too much about Speed, as always, I opted for two Choice Band sets. They don't compliment each other in any way, they don't synergise well at all, but, you have to admit, these two together will be piling the pressure on opponents.[/box]

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    [box]A habit from the past (probably a good one, to be honest) is needing to have a Rapid Spinner in every team, even if the team isn't that bothered by entry hazards. Honestly, every team should have one. Out of all the Rapid Spinners, only one struck me as being able to do some real damage by itself, and to have some actual Speed behind it as it does - Starmie, of course. This paved the way for a FWG core in the middle of the team, wanting at least a respectable backbone for the team to fall back on.[/box]

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    [box]Originally suggested to me by Trinitrotoluene for the team that came before this (it took to the sidelines after a while, putting it aside for this), Celebi is an amazing answer to Pokémon such as Rotom-W, Breloom, rain teams in general, and most Keldeo sets. I'd never noticed before exactly how much raw bulk this thing has, with a great recovery move to back that up. Not only that, but it's actually able to chip away at opponent's HP well enough, usually netting at least one KO per battle. With an offensive core so obviously outsped by Pokémon such as Gengar, Starmie and Tornadus-T, the paralysis support that it could bring was definitely welcome, and made it possibly the most useful member of the team in many situations.[/box]

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    [box]A Steel-type was definitely needed, as they are in any team, and Heatran was of course chosen to complete the nice little core I had going. Instead of opting for a specially defensive set - that job was taken well by Celebi - a more offensive set was called upon to fill the slot. Having used defensive sets and semi-gimmick Specs sets in the past, I wasn't initially sure what to expect from this somewhere-in-the-middle combination of the two, but it was a great set to choose in the end, and being a great way to beat two Pokémon that usually take a pleasant evening stroll through my teams - Breloom and Scizor - was perfect. People seem to forget exactly what outspeeds their Breloom an Scizor when invested in an unusual way, and they end up paying for it.[/box]

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    [box]Now, this slot took some deciding, and it ultimately wasn't me that got it right. At first, I decided that the best way forwards was to simply add more power and a late-game cleaner (moreso than Garchomp and Terrakion), which lead me to assuming RP Landorus-T was right for the job. I won't say it did badly, because it didn't, but it wasn't quite working out as well as I thought. Most of the time, the game-changing and game-deciding moments were made by either Celebi or Garchomp/Terrakion, with Landorus-T rarely even seeing action (and usually getting its face kicked in when it did).[/box]

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    [box]So the last slot needed a rethink, and I decided that, yeah, the team wasn't fast enough. I'd tried to remedy that using Landorus-T, but I needed something with immediate Speed and offensive presence. Noticing that I more often than not had a problem with it myself, I decided to try out a Scarf Thundurus-T, which seemed to work well too. It solved the problem I had when facing faster Pokémon such as Starmie and Tornadus-T, obviously, and the Stealth Rock weakness didn't even seem to hold it back too much. Three Choice Pokémon was something I'd usually do whatever I could to avoid like the plague, but it seemed to work here.[/box]

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    [box]Feeling relatively happy and confident with the team at that point ("relatively" being the key word), I shared it with Trinitrotoluene, knowing that he's one of the best when it comes to spotting flaws and such in teams. He suggested a change to two slots, which I must admit I was at first rather disappointed with - I thought it was doing well as it was - but I'm glad I listened, because it changed a whole lot for me. He noted that the team lacked serious win conditions, and suggested replacing Terrakion's Choice Band set with a SubSalac, which I'd seen talked about a lot, but never actually used, as well as replacing Scarf Thundurus-T with a Scarf Latios. These two changes managed to net me an admittedly modest peak in the simulator, much to my happiness.[/box]

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    [box]After the RMT was posted, it seemed that the general consensus was that the team needed a) SDef Rotom-W and b) some kind of Jirachi. Initially, Jirachi was going to be a Scarf set and take Latios' place, but with the persuasion of Shurtugal, the spot was taken by a Choice Scarf Latias instead, doing the exact same job that the Latios that came before it did, but being able to take Fighting-type attacks a little better - which would have been a problem for the team had Jirachi taken the slot as I intended. On top of that, it provides a means to bring a team member back from near-death, something that I can see definitely being helpful.[/box]​


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    Pokémon Showdown! Importable - NEEDS UPDATING (open)
    Garchomp (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Fang
    - Dragon Claw

    Terrakion @ Salac Berry
    Trait: Justified
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Psyshock
    - Rapid Spin

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 SDef / 24 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave

    Heatran (F) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Trick


    Pokémon Online Importable - NEEDS UPDATING (open)
    Garchomp (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Fang
    - Dragon Claw

    Terrakion @ Salac Berry
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Trait: Illuminate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rapid Spin

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 SDef / 24 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave

    Heatran (F) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Trick


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    [box]I'd be lying if I were to say I wasn't immediately surprised by the effectiveness and power of Choice Band Garchomp. As a rule, I tend to avoid Choice Band and Choice Specs sets on Pokémon - hell, I'm iffy about Choice Scarf sets most of the time - but in all honesty, I do not regret using CBChomp at all. Even only hitting on the physical side of the coin, it finds almost no problem with driving through a defensive threat using only force.

    Garchomp is usually the member of the team that I'm most careful in bringing out, even though it tends to be able to take a hit or two before being in any real danger. Between Garchomp and Celebi, stall or bulky offense teams tend to have their work cut out for them in trying to make an impact, the former having little problem in its role as the almost ideal wallbreaker. With a decent enough Speed stat itself, the lack of improvement that a Choice Scarf would bring to the set isn't much of a problem on this team - used mostly for wallbreaking, outspeeding defensive threats isn't that hard.

    That being said, it manages to make a stand against a great number of offensive threats too, and put a huge dent in them. For example, Garchomp obviously outspeeds Dragonite and usually manages to do around 90% damage with Outrage through Multiscale. Garchomp is also a help against Pokémon that are more rarely seen that can pose a huge defensive threat, such as Wobbuffet - if one ever comes up against Garchomp, Outrage manages to OHKO.

    Additionally, with the paralysis support that Celebi can bring to the table against most common Pokémon - notable ones being Lati@s, Tornadus-T, fast and hard-hitting Pokémon such as them - Garchomp can act as a cleaner of sorts, facing little-to-no threat from these cripples opponents that would normally have the upper hand.[/box]

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    [box]Trinitrotoluene mentioned that the team lacked serious win conditions even with two Choice Band sets, and introduced me to this Terrakion set, which I thank him for deeply. I'd wanted to steer clear of Terrakion sets that only use its STABs for coverage - the coverage is good enough, true, but I always prefer having a third attack on any Terrakion set - but this set definitely brings an added layer of protection to the team. While I may not use it in the way he intended, as a late-game Pokémon, it finds little problem setting up a Substitute on most defensive Pokémon that the opponent uses, adding to the team's stall-breaking nature.

    The higher Speed stat that Terrakion possesses, as well as the (debatably) superior STAB options in Fighting-type and Rock-type, made it the more preferable of the two to sport the SubSalac set, appreciating the Speed boost it brings to no end, enabling it to put Pokémon such as Keldeo, Starmie and Tornadus-T to their ends. Again, Terrakion also appreciates facing down a paralysed opponent, giving it an even greater chance of being able to set up a successful Substitute and proceed to boost its already impressive Attack stat behind it.

    While this offensive core might not work as a typical core would - covering each other's weakness and patching up each other's threats - that's not the aim here. The aim is to simply do as much damage as quickly and efficiently as possible, preferably involving forcing a few switches while doing so. The two manage to do this together extremely well, piling the pressure on the opponent with support from the rest of the team until they crack.[/box]

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    [box]Upon getting rid of Thundurus-T from the team, there was a lack of Stealth Rock weakness, but I'd decided to keep Starmie around anyway, thinking it to be for the best. Entry hazards not much of a hazard at all for the team, it was suggested that a Rotom-W replace it here for a couple of reasons. It was able to slow Tornadus-T down immensely, a Pokémon that could in fact be the largest threat to the team, and work in conjunction with Celebi to spread paralysis throughout the opponent's team (including the Therian).

    As Starmie was able to, Rotom-W is also able to help the team's situation against forms of opposing Keldeo, which also threatened to KO the team with powerful Water-type attacks (especially a threat if either Scarfed or Specs'd), as well as being an aid against Drizzle teams in general, again working with Celebi in that respect.

    On top of that, it also gives me another good option against Heatran, Hippowdon and many defensive threats in general, something that the rest of the team would greatly appreciate. In all, a seemingly great replacement (on paper thus far, at least) for a team member that I couldn't seem to get rid of myself, and I thank everyone that suggested it for the team.[/box]

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    [box]While Garchomp is the hardest hitter of the team, I'm reluctant to call it the MVP in most of the battles that it's involved in. That title will most likely go to Celebi, who ends up being my 'lead' the vast majority of the time. The way it can match up against most of the OU tier is impressive, especially against special attackers such as Latios, which always seem to stay in anyway, believing that Draco Meteor can do much damage to the grass pixie. They are mistaken. Specially defensive Celebi is a true thing to behold, able to take some of the most powerful special attacks and heal the damage right off.

    Obviously, the main reason Celebi is here is to spread paralysis, a job that it manages to do incredibly well. With the bulk that it brings, it's able to cripple fast and hard-hitting Pokémon such as Latios and Tornadus-T that would definitely be giving the rest of the team a hard time. To give an idea of how much punishment this thing can take, Modest Specs Latios' Draco Meteor does a maximum of 80%, and a Timid Life Orb Tornadus-T's Hurricane fails to OHKO. While it won't be labeled as a counter to the latter any time soon, the scenario in which those attacks are used are always nearing the start of the battle, and end with the opponent finding their precious sweeper paralysed and helpless to the force the rest of the team can bring.

    Even with an uninvested Defence stat, Celebi also still manages to pack a surprising amount of bulk there too, with it being my number 1 switch-in on Breloom, which fails to do much damage at all, and that can be either shut down with Thunder Wave or chipped away at by Hidden Power [Fire].

    Celebi manages to carry the entire team with ease, providing paralysis support that every member can take good advantage of, while still managing to stay around for a depressing amount of time. It's not uncommon to battle a team that's unprepared for the bulk it brings, allowing it to stay in play for long periods of time as a consequence. I really can't sing enough praise for the help that it beings the rest of the team.[/box]

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    [box]While an offensive Heatran may be a strange thing to have in a supposed "strong backbone" of a team, it does the job that it's given well. Mostly, that consists of scouting for Terrakion, throwing up Stealth Rocks and netting surprise KOs on any Breloom or Scizor that decide to try to stare it into submission. People honestly seem to forget that this thing is by no means the slowest thing in the tier, giving it a chance to grab some unexpected KOs against unprepared opponents.

    The Air Balloon makes Heatran a surprisingly good switch-in to opposing Garchomp, resisting or having an immunity to the most common coverage moves, if only for one turn. This can also be said for any opposing Heatran, especially the more defensive sets, walling them completely and threatening immediately with Earth Power.

    While Celebi is able to take on the majority of Drizzle teams, Heatran is able to be a safe bet to face down the Drought teams out there, the sun only strengthening its main attack. Unlike most of the Pokémon on this team, either forced out by Dragon-types or set up on, Heatran manages to hit back well, most of the reason for which being down to its Hidden Power, the number of resistances and immunities it carries with it and the deceptive Speed it possesses.[/box]

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    [box]The predecessor of Trinitrotoluene's Latios suggestion comes in the form of Latias. A great change that I'm annoyed I didn't spot myself, it does the exact same job that Latios managed to do so well, plus a little more on the side. The team still has a weakness to Keldeo - all sets, essentially - though lessened a little due to Rotom-W's presence, though Latios was going up for replacement. What better to replace it with than something that can do its job equally as well?

    With the team suffering as much as it does from Fighting-type attacks - there aren't exactly many resistances here, and almost too many weaknesses - Latios still taking a large chunk of damage from them wasn't ideal. Latias manages to take the same hits a little better, while still being able to hit back nearly as well as the Dragon-type that came before it did. Most importantly, this means that it's yet another Pokémon on the team that can stand up against Breloom and take it down, as well as others.

    Sharing mostly the same moveset that Latios had, it still manages to take on Keldeo sets with Psyshock, and hit hard when it needs to with Surf and Draco Meteor, but there's another ace up its sleeve. Healing Wish faints Latias, but heals whatever I send in next - crucially, before it takes any damage from attacks or any entry hazards. Being able to give a Garchomp or Terrakion nearing its end a new chance to shine in the battle, I'm sure will be a huge help in the future.[/box]

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    So, that's finally it for my fourth RMT. Just a few more words before the boring stuff in the post below. I have to say, no matter how much attention this team gets in comparison to the last couple I've posted, I have had more fun with this than with either of them. In my own mind, this team's not only more fun, but just better than the previous two as well. It's made me happy working on it, battling has been enjoyable, and as I mentioned in the introduction, it's gotten me a vastly improved ranking on the PS! ladder compared to what I could manage with previous teams.

    Finally, I'd like to thank anybody that's helped me out with the team, be it creating or battling. Especially Trinitrotoluene, who took the team in only good directions when I asked for help, and Electrolyte for the advice and set suggestions given that I will be testing over the upcoming few days (I have a good feeling about them). Thank you all.
  2. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
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    Discontinued after about 20 hours because fuck, I'm not updating this every time the team changes.

    [​IMG] Stoutland:
    • Choice Band: Probably the biggest threat to the team. If I can't get some good damage on it early, or hit it as it switches in, there's a good chance it's going to beat me. Terrakion that's ready behind a Substitute should be able to beat it, however, but even that's tricky. Nothing I have can outspeed it, the power behind its attacks is truly stupid, and there's just no way I can counter it if the situation arises. It's a shame, it seems to be the only huge gaping weakness the team has.

    [​IMG] Jirachi:
    • Sub + CM/3 Attacks: Definitely a threat, Garchomp and Heatran the only Pokémon that can hit it for good damage. Beatable, but still tough to work around nonetheless. Honestly, one of the only ways I can think to beat it with the current lineup is to somehow manage to paralyse it with Celebi (actually rather straightforward to do) then hope I can get Garchomp in well enough to hit it with an Earthquake or two.

    [​IMG] Landorus-I:
    • Rock Polish: If it gets boosted, definite problems. Celebi may be able to take a hit or two, but I'm not sure if it can do enough damage to KO fast enough. Nothing on the team will be able to outspeed it, and I'd have to rely on there being some kind of miracle in which I'm given a chance to attack once to have any hope of coming out of the other side.

    [​IMG] Espeon
    • Calm Mind: Since the coverage moves that this Pokémon carries are far from diverse, the best course of action here seems to be throw big attacks at it and see what happens then. Garchomp is assigned this lovely duty the majority of the time. Unfortunately, if it's allowed to reach even +1 then it's a definite threat, especially since the only Pokémon I have that can otuspeed it attacks from the side that Espeon is strongest.

    [​IMG] Latias:
    • Reflect/Refresh + CM: A lesser-seen set, but one that's actually quite dangerous for me. Paralysis is one of the main factors in battles with this team, and with Refresh getting rid of that, being able to beat this Latias is actually a challenge. It outspeeds Garchomp, so without paralysis it can't launch an Outrage, Latias' bulk will most likely protect it from Latios if it boosts enough. The chance of beating this thing boils down to whether or not I can switch quickly and well enough to be able to have Garchomp in just before they hit Refresh - then it's their choice of either stay paralysed and be Outraged to death or hit Refresh and be Outraged to death. Not simple by any means. I'm so glad this set is relatively uncommon.

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    Offensive Threatlist (open)
    [​IMG] Abomasnow
    • Mixed Attacker: Easily walled and beaten by Heatran, mauled by Garchomp and Terrakion.
    • Choice Scarf: Even with Choice Scarf, outsped by Latios, Terrakion wins under a Sub or with Salac activated.

    [​IMG] Alakazam
    • Focus Sash: Tricky, but dealt with by Latios outspeeding and Terrakion behind a Sub/Salac activated.
    • Offensive Calm Mind: The same, I imagine. More reliance on Terrakion and Garchomp and hoping that it doesn't carry HP Ice.

    [​IMG] Azelf
    • Lead: Celebi can chip away at its HP and tank any Fire Blasts and paralyse. Latios outspeeds if all else fails.
    • Dual Screens: Same as above, more reliance on Celebi to stick around for a little longer.

    [​IMG] Azumarill
    • Choice Band: Moderate threat, but Celebi and Heatran can threaten between themselves to mostly force switches. Latios can take a not very effective priority move.

    [​IMG] Breloom
    • Techniloom: Celebi can wall, Heatran outspeeds and OHKOs with Fire Blast, most of the team can either outspeed or not take much damage from Mach Punch and do enough to KO.
    • SubPunch: Celebi walls it to hell and back, even through Spore. HP Fire does ~60% most of the time, Heatran outspeeds if all else fails.

    [​IMG] Celebi
    • Tinkerbell: Terrakion can take damage behind a Sub and do good damage with Stone Edge, Heatran tanks Leaf Storms.
    • Nasty Plot: Again, Heatran can take anything it dishes out if Air Balloon is intact. Latios outspeeds.

    [​IMG] Cloyster
    • Shell Smash: No priority makes this a potential threat. Only thing that stands a chance being Heatran, possibly.

    [​IMG] Conkeldurr
    • Bulk Up: Battering it with Latios' Draco Meteor seems to be the best way to deal with it. Doesn't fear Mach Punch that much. Garchomp can help provided it's unboosted/+1.
    • Flame Orb + 3 Attacks: Same as above, though Garchomp becomes more of a realistic option. Starmie can hit well with Psyshock, as can Latios if needed.

    [​IMG] Darmanitan
    • Choice Scarf/Band: Can be worked around with smart switching, hopefully can catch with Celebi on a switch somewhere and paralyse. Latios' Surf OHKOs after Stealth Rock.
    • Life Orb: Less common than above, but can be worked with in the same way.

    [​IMG] Deoxys-D
    • Fast Spiker: Half the team fear the uncommon Thunder Wave. Best course of action would be to throw Garchomp in at the deep end straight away - Outrage 2HKOs easily.

    [​IMG] Dragonite
    • Dragon Dance: Sets up on Celebi, gets paralysed. Garchomp's Outrage has a high chance to OHKO through Multiscale. Terrakion wins under Sub, Latios outspeeds even at +1 for the Draco Meteor hit.
    • Choice Band: Again, Garchomp, Latios and Terrakion under Sub takes care of this with relative ease.
    • Mixed: Once again, the above three can take it on.
    • Parashuffler: And again, Garchomp doesn't fear Thunder Wave, as with Starmie.
    • Rain Abuse: Who's the top Dragon-type now, bitch.

    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    • Focus Sash: Screwed if it switches in on Stealth Rock. Heatran trolls it with Air Balloon intact, must resort to a weak Reversal to break it or just run away crying as it's hit with HP Ice. Latios outspeeds, Terrakion wins under Sub.
    • Choice Band: Same situation as above, only easier to deal with, as it happens.

    [​IMG] Empoleon
    • Agility: Garchomp can catch it out if unboosted, Celebi can take Ice Beams and paralyse or hit with Giga Drain, Latios outspeeds at +2 and can pick off low HP if needed.

    [​IMG] Espeon
    • Baton Pass: As a set by itself, little problem. Celebi takes little damage from coverage moves, though can't do much in return. Perish Song would help, but 4 moveslot syndrome is hard.
    • Dual Screens: Hopefully get an early hard hit in with Garchomp or Latios, still can't touch Celebi if it comes to that.

    [​IMG] Garchomp
    • Swords Dance: Heatran can most likely take a +2 Outrage from full HP - 86-101% - and hit back with HP Ice. Latios outspeeds.
    • Choice Band: Heatran fares better here, can take a Banded Outrage and definitely hit back with HP Ice, Latios still outspeeds and can finish with Draco Meteor.
    • Choice Scarf: Same two as mentioned, Latios still outspeeds, Celebi can take Outrages and heal off the damage relatively well.

    [​IMG] Gengar
    • SubDisable/Split: Best hope here is for either Latios or Starmie to outspeed, or to have Terrakion ready and behind a Sub, or with +1 Spd.

    [​IMG] Gorebyss
    • SmashPass: Nail it with high-powered attacks or paralyse it as it boosts. Celebi can take Surf and Ice Beam even at +2 SAtk and regain HP through Recover or Giga Drain if the oppotunity arises.
    • Shell Smash Sweeper: I've never even seen this set, but I imagine if I manage to paralyse it it shouldn't be much of a problem. If not, Latios still outspeeds at +2.

    [​IMG] Gothitelle
    • Choice Scarf/Specs: The only time I've come across this and Celebi managed to take it down herself. Still doesn't seem to hit Celebi that hard, good play with recovery and attacks can beat it one-on-one.

    [​IMG] Gyarados
    • Offensive/Bulky DD: Celebi hopefully paralyses and reduces threat, Latios can outspeed boosted anyway. Terrakion under Sub wins.
    • Choice Band: Again, Terrakion. Starmie outspeeds and can hit neutrally, as can Latios.
    • Choice Scarf: Still, Latios outspeeds, and Terrakion can still win under Sub.

    [​IMG] Haxorus
    • Choice Scarf/Band: Garchomp wins VS Band sets, Latios wins VS both anyway. Heatran should be helpful with prediction.
    • Dragon Dance: The usual with boosting Pokémon, hope to get lucky with paralysis, Latios can outspeed up to a point with its own Scarf.
    • Swords Dance: Outsped by Garchomp, Terrakion, Latios and Starmie. As with Band sets, is can be dealt with through brute force from a few different fronts.

    [​IMG] Heatran
    • Choice Scarf/Specs: Latios seems useful here, still able to outspeed. Terrakion wins under Sub, Garchomp wins VS Specs sets, and my own Heatran wins with prediction.
    • Air Balloon: Latios, Starmie and Terrakion give it a reasonable challenge between them. Once Air Balloon is burst, Garchomp enters as the largest threat to it.

    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    • Mixed Attacker: Latios and Garchomp don't care if you're mixed or not, they both still outspeed. Same situation with Starmie, though needs to be more careful about being hit by a Crunch in the event that it fails to KO.
    • Choice Specs/Scarf: My own two Dragon-types still do well here, Garchomp is outsped by Scarf though Latios is still there for support. Terrakion decimates it with a Salac boost or just good Close Combat prediction.
    • Substitute: Garchomp most likely can't take it on, down to Starmie and Latios. Terrakion can engage in a Sub war, though may lose due to higher Speed.
    • Expert Belt: With no Speed boost behind it, seemingly easy prey to a few members of my team - namely my Dragon-types, Terrakion and possibly Starmie. Careful play with switching can make it absolutely useless.

    [​IMG] Infernape
    • Choice Band/Scarf: Band falls to Garchomp, Heatran with prediction, Starmie and Latios. Latios seems the only real solution to Scarf, doesn't fear HP Ice much.
    • Mixed Attacker: Again, Starmie and Latios are the only Pokémon I have that outspeed. Luckily, they both have powerful attacks, and Water-type moves at their disposal.
    • Nasty Plot/Swords Dance: As long as I avoid an untimely U-Turn with Latios and Starmie, taking care of it should be relatively straight forward.

    [​IMG] Jirachi
    • Wish + CM: High-powered attacks from both Garchomp and Heatran manage to wear it down over time well enough, the former preferable for obvious reasons.
    • Choice Scarf: Thankfully rarely used, Garchomp becomes unusable due to the presence of Ice Punch. Latios doesn't do much damage, but Heatran becomes easier to use.

    [​IMG] Keldeo
    • Choice Scarf/Specs: Both Latios and Starmie outspeed and both carry Psyshock, dealing great damage to something that used to threaten the whole team badly.
    • Calm Mind: As above, duty falls to Latios and Starmie to take care of it.

    [​IMG] Kingdra
    • Rain Dance: Usually seen as a lead for some reason, Celebi Thunder Waves on setup, can take care of it herself from there with Giga Drain if needs be. Otherwise, can take any hit it tries to dish out anyway.
    • Dragon Dance: Latios outspeeds up to a point, Celebi can still take a reasonable number of attacks. Shouldn't take me more than a couple of turns to work around that. If allowed to set up, can be a huge problem, but that can be said for anything.

    [​IMG] Kyurem
    • Choice Specs/Scarf: Garchomp and Terrakion take down Specs sets, Latios still outspeeds if it's Scarfed, able to take it down with Draco Meteor.
    • Sub + Roost: Same as above, slightly easier with the lower Speed.

    [​IMG] Kyurem-B
    • Substitute + Dragon Tail: Manage to paralyse most Kyurem-B sets on switch-in. If not, every set is the same - kill before it kills me. Garchomp, Terrakion and Latios outspeed. Terrakion preferable due to not being phased out by Dragon Tail if using a Sub.
    • Choice Band: Sadly, usually sack something to it to be able to bring out one of my Dragon-types or Terrakion. Heatran is usually the one to go, sometimes manage to get off a hit on it. Not too difficult to take it down if I can get a hit on it.
    • Mixed: I've never even battled one of these, but I can guarantee that Heatran will have fun with it. Other than that, the usual Terrakion, Garchomp and Latios combo.
    • Choice Scarf: Thankfully, I've never gotten to see one in action. Only Latios or a boosted Terrakion could save me.

    [​IMG] Landorus
    • Swords Dance: Outsped by Latios and Starmie, as well as Garchomp that can do reasonable damage with an Outrage.
    • Sheer Force: Celebi doesn't fear Focus Blast or Earth Power, and takes shruggable damage from HP Ice. Can absorb HP with Giga Drain and just stall it out if needed. Starmie and Latios fast enough to KO otherwise.
    • Choice Scarf: Latios outspeeds and can hit it well with either Draco Meteor or Surf. Celebi should be able to take a couple of hits well enough.
    • Sub + 3 Attacks: Assuming that these three attacks are specially-based, Celebi should be able to take anything it throws. If caught without a Sub, Latios can come in and clean up.

    [​IMG] Landorus-T
    • Rock Polish: As with Landorus-I, if I allow it to boost then it's definitely a problem for the entire team. Best hope is to catch it out with Heatran's Air Balloon and get off a HP Ice on it before it does too much damage.
    • Swords Dance: Not much of a problem. Latios and Starmie outspeed, and Garchomp's Outrage can even 2HKO at -1 while outspeeding.
    • Sub + 3 Attacks: Tougher considering people wouldn't be using a special set on it. Best hope is to have Terrakion behind its own Sub and hope that Stone Edge is doing enough damage to break his, or just catch it outside one with Starmie, Garchomp or Latios.
    • Choice Scarf: Heatran is bought in with prediction, Latios can be used to outspeed and still do super-effective damage.

    [​IMG] Latias
    • Life Orb Tank: For some reason stays in on Celebi almost without fail only to be paralysed. Can be easily picked off by Latios or Garchomp afterwards, or Starmie if it's weak enough.
    • Calm Mind: Again, stays in on Celebi, assuming it can beat it. Heatran can wall well enough and chip away with HP Ice, Latios outspeeds for the KO in most cases.

    [​IMG] Latios
    • Life Orb/Expert Belt: Celebi paralyses almost every single time they meet, turns into easy prey for my Dragon-types.
    • Choice Scarf: Same as above - people, why do you keep Latios in on Celebi, your Draco Meteor doesn't work...
    • Choice Specs: Once again, Celebi lives and can paralyse, removing it from the battle almost altogether. Does between 61% and 73%, while Celebi can just heal off the gradually decreasing damage.
      [*]Calm Mind: A little more of a challenge, though still paralysed a lot of the time. If not, and if it gets boosts, definitely a problem. Best hope is having Terrakion set up for a sweep.


    [​IMG] Lucario
    • Swords Dance: Garchomp is the one to take care of this, being able to shrug off unboosted priority - boosted in some cases - and OHKO with Earthquake. Heatran also a reasonable solution with good prediction.

    [​IMG] Magnezone
    • Substitute: Celebi walls to hell and back, Garchomp and Heatran wreck it with Ground-type and Fire-type attacks, and Terrakion can get involved if the opponent is sans Flash Cannon.
    • Choice Scarf/Specs: Much the same solution. Without a Sub as a resource, a better target for paralysis. Even with Scarf, Garchomp still an option due to resisting both STABs.

    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    • Physical Attacker: With Stealth Rocks factored in, Latios can OHKO with Draco Meteor and should be able to take an Ice Shard. Terrakion can Close Combat it to death, and Heatran can avoid the Ground-type STAB for at least one turn to do some good damage.
    • Focus Sash + Endeavour: A slight problem without priority on the team, will usually net a kill before I can dispose of it, unless it switches in on Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG] Metagross
    • Choice Scarf/Band: Garchomp doesn't care for Trick at all, and can decimate with STAB Earthquake. Heatran can outspeed Band sets and ruin with Fire Blast, and won't exactly mind a free Choice Scarf if it comes around.
    • Stealth Rock: Heatran and Garchomp again team up to make Metagross a non-issue to the team.

    [​IMG] Mew
    • Baton Pass: This team hates Baton Pass with a passion, not having any way to phase opponents out. The fact that it doesn't resist Dragon-type moves is helpful, however, and the normal course of action can be used well here.

    [​IMG] Mienshao
    • All-Out Attacker: Assuming Life Orb, still not much of a bother. Latios outspeeds and can OHKO with Psyshock, much like Starmie.
    • Choice Scarf/Band: Again, Latios outspeeds both sets. Starmie can help with taking care of the Band set.

    [​IMG] Ninetales
    • Special Attacker: Heatran is the way to go here, having a super effective Earth Power for Ninetales in the event of anything but an Air Balloon, and still a superpowered Fire Blast if it does.

    [​IMG] Politoed
    • Choice Specs/Scarf: Specs can be beaten down by Garchomp and Terrakion, while Scarf can be taken head-first by Celebi with no fear. Latios remains as backup, outspeeding and out-gunning Politoed.
    • 3 Attacks: Most of the team's force can be set upon this set without much worry. Garchomp, Terrakion and Latios can outspeed and outpower, while Celebi can still take attacks like there's no tomorrow, chipping away with Giga Drain.

    [​IMG] Reuniclus
    • Offensive Trick Room: Potential threat, then outspeeds my entire team. Celebi should be able to take any attacks, and hopefully paralysis would aid me in switching something more powerful in to just bombard it with attacks.
    • Calm Mind: Big threat, after one boost Celebi becomes useless. Hopefully manage to get Terrakion or Garchomp in early to pile some good damage up.

    [​IMG] Rotom-W
    • Choice Scarf/Specs: Scarf can be dealt with through Latios and Celebi, while Specs through those two and both my physical attackers. The relatively low Speed on Rotom-W makes it a good target for a good number of team members.

    [​IMG] Salamence
    • Dragon Dance: Assumes it can set up on Celebi in most cases, ends up getting paralysed. Latios can outspeed up to a point otherwise, and Heatran is a good backup option if everything else goes south.
    • Mixed: Again, Celebi can do pretty well here, as can Heatran and Latios. Same plan as above.
    • Choice Scarf: Latios becomes the most important member of the team for dealing with these sets. Easily outspeeds, and can obviously do some damage with Draco Meteor.

    [​IMG] Scizor
    • Choice Band: As long as Celebi avoids the inevitable U-Turn or Bug Bite, she can take Band sets on all day. HP Fire doesn't quite OHKO, but does a good chunk of damage anyway.
    • Swords Dance: Again, Celebi can deal with until a Bug-type move comes along. If it goes badly, it's up to Garchomp or Latios to clean up the mess quickly, which is perfectly doable.
    • Bulky Swords Dance: A slight challenge, but not exactly impossible. Most sets decide to forgo Superpower on sets such as this, seemingly, so Heatran becomes a great choice, outspeeding Scizor and OHKOing with Fire Blast.

    [​IMG] Scrafty
    • Dragon Dance: I've not battled one, but since it's not the bulkiest thing the metagame has to offer, I can guess that it won't much enjoy repeated Draco Meteors or Close Combat, which is what I would most likely automatically go to.
    • Bulk Up: Terrakion becomes less of an option, but can still be the answer if it can be caught with little or no boosts. Otherwise, Latios can launch its own assault against it.

    [​IMG] Sharpedo
    • Speed Boost: Probably seen on Drizzle teams, I doubt I have anything that could really take it to Sharpedo. Latios will most likely be outsped by the time I get it in. Terrakion under Sub seems like the best chance for victory here.

    [​IMG] Smeargle
    • Baton Pass: I probably can't do anything here. Best hope is to get Celebi to land a Thunder Wave before sacking her to Spore (which she doesn't even mind that much). Once that's done with, it's a simple matter of bringing something else in to clean up.

    [​IMG] Starmie
    • Life Orb Spinner: Celebi manages to take the usual attacks well, and do some damage back while doing so. Latios outspeeds, Terrakion can do some damage from behind a sub, though nothing will save my Stealth Rocks if it decides to spin. Ah well, takes one turn to set up.

    [​IMG] Stoutland
    • Non-Choice: The lessened power of attacks makes Heatran a more reliable Pokémon to use than if it had a Choice Band, and stands a chance of hitting a couple of attacks on it in the process. Still a threat, just less so than the Band set.

    [​IMG] Terrakion
    • Sub + Swords Dance/Salac: Both Starmie and Latios have the ability to outspeed and get some good damage on it, though only the latter can still outspeed it after Salac activates. It's possible that Celebi can take a couple of attacks, but it's iffy.
    • Choice Band/Scarf: Band falls to Latios, Celebi and Starmie - Garchomp too if an Adamant nature is used - while the Scarf set can take some more predicting to beat. Latios still does a good chunk of damage with Psyshock, however, and is the go-to Pokémon here.
    • Double Dance: Handled largely in the same way as the first set, but with extra care put into prediction and playing due to the increased Speed multiplier.

    [​IMG] Thundurus-T
    • Nasty Plot: Though Celebi can take most attacks that it gives, the only way I can actually beat it would be through either Starmie or Latios managing to hit it well, usually meaning that something must be sacrificed.
    • Choice Scarf: Much like above, though Latios is the only Pokémon seemingly that can actually defeat it. Celebi can be switched to to take pitiful damage from Volt Switch, then switch out to another counter.

    [​IMG] Tornadus-T
    • Standard: The majority of the time paralysed on switch-in after people think it's a free and clear move, Latios can still outspeed in the event of that going awry, doing reasonable damage with Draco Meteor or Surf (depending on the weather).
    • Choice Specs: Again, Latios takes the stage as being the Pokémon to go to to take care of something. If not paralysed, can be a major threat.

    [​IMG] Toxicroak
    • Swords Dance: Catching it on the switch-in or setup seems like the best plan here, as boosted Sucker Punch will do a number on the team. Starmie or Latios with Psyshock are good here, though Heatran can make a stand in extreme circumstances.
    • Bulk Up: Again, Starmie and Latios are the best to take it on. Garchomp can hit it for a great amount of damage with Earthquake if I catch it early on.
    • SubPunch: Celebi manages to shrug off Focus Punches even without any Defence investment, recovering when needed. Can PP stall Focus Punch easily, and paralyse whenever it's without a Sub.

    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    • Choice Band: Terrakion is, of course, the go-to Pokémon for taking care of Tyranitar, decimating it with STAB Close Combat. Celebi can win this matchup too in some situations, taking 53-64% from repeated Pursuits and gaining back from Recover and Giga Drain.
    • Choice Scarf: A little harder to take care of, the duty once again falls to Latios or Terrakion, depending on whether a Sub is realistic or not.

    [​IMG] Venusaur
    • Growth: Heatran can take on Venusaur with relative ease, not fearing mixed sets until its Air Balloon is broken. Celebi is also able to take a few attacks, and paralyse back while Latios can clean that up afterwards.

    [​IMG] Victini
    • Choice Band/Scarf: Heatran should be close by for these sets once again, resisting the obvious V-Create and being able to hit back well. Latios can finish off with Surf, but with Drought probably in effect maybe isn't realistic.

    [​IMG] Virizion
    • Calm Mind: Latios and Starmie both outspeed well and can both OHKO.
    • Swords Dance: Same as above, both sets can be taken care of in the same way.

    [​IMG] Volcarona
    • Offensive Quiver Dance: With Stealth Rock in effect, this is a lot easier than it could be. Either way, Terrakion and Latios between them can handle mostly any sets that Volcarona throws at them.
    • Bulky Quiver Dance: Terrakion OHKOs with Stone Edge, outspeeding without a boost anyway, and Latios should do some good damage with Surf, or Psyshock if a few boosts are accumulated.
    • Substitute: Terrakion becomes more useful here than against other sets, with its own Sub being a large part in winning this against Volcarona. However, if caught outside of a Sub, Latios is free to do some damage.


    Defensive Threatlist (open)
    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    • Standard: Heatran, Latios and Starmie all have the right moves to be able to take this thing out with relative ease - Fire Blast for the former, and Psyshock for the latter two - while taking little-to-no damage themselves.

    [​IMG] Blissey
    • Support: This team has almost no trouble with Blissey at all. Garchomp and Terrakion are both able to rip through her with their physical moves, while Starmie and Latios both have Psyshock to take advantage of her low Defence.

    [​IMG] Bronzong
    • Tank: Heatran is the closest thing I have to ensure that Bronzong doesn't get in the way. Fire Blast still has a chance to OHKO, with the only danger Heatran faces coming if its item is destroyed.

    [​IMG] Celebi
    • Physically Defensive: Heatran is the best to choose for this provided either Air Balloon is intact or the opponent lacks Earth Power, but both Starmie and Latios have the moves to stare it down and survive too.
    • Specially Defensive: Again, Heatran can stand up against the pixie and come out alive - the increase in bulk doesn't really matter that much in this case.

    [​IMG] Chansey
    • Support: Bitch I murdered your mother.

    [​IMG] Cloyster
    • Utility: Even with the ridiculously high Defence stat, Terrakion still manages to do some impressive damage against Cloyster, though Heatran is there too as insurance.

    [​IMG] Cresselia
    • Support: While I have nothing that can OHKO this thing, Celebi stands a great chance of being able to out-stall it, not caring about paralysis, and being able to live through moderately weak Ice Beams. Garchomp is always there for pure force if it's needed to finish it off, however.

    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    • Standard: Most of the team is able to deal with Ferrothorn in one way or another, but Celebi most often finds that job easiest. HP Fire isn't a OHKO, but doing it in two moves is great, and definitely comes handy, as does being immune to Leech Seed, and not taking huge damage from Gyro Ball.

    [​IMG] Forretress
    • Physically Defensive: Since Ferrothorn and Forretress are quite similar, especially in terms of typing and movesets, Celebi does a fine job at handling the latter too.
    • Specially Defensive: Even with the investment in SDef, Celebi's HP Fire is still a definite 2HKO. There's always Heatran to fall back on, so the Forrteress situation seems covered.

    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    • Tank: Celebi really cemented its place in the team with its first battle against Gastrodon, making me realise that Celebi, on this team, can take on a ridiculous number of stall Pokémon. Gastrodon's Ice Beams don't hit particularly hard, so Giga Drain is the go-to move here. Garchomp or Terrakion could always try to power their way through, but bar an unlucky crit, they'll never have to.

    [​IMG] Gliscor
    • Sub + Protect: Heatran manages to lure Gliscor in whenever I'm up against them, putting it in a great position to grab a KO with HP Ice. Starmie can also use Ice Beam for the OHKO, and even Celebi is able to hold ground in a pinch.
    • Swords Dance: Easier without Substitutes to work around, using the same Pokémon mentioned above.[/lift]

      [​IMG] Heatran
      • Specially Defensive: My own Heatran manages to 2HKO with Earth Power, and Garchomp manages to grab an undisputed OHKO with Earthquake. On top of that, Latios and Starmie with powerful Water-type moves make Heatran not much of a problem.

      [​IMG] Hippowdon
      • Physical Tank: Celebi 2HKOs with Giga Drain, as does Latios with Surf, with Starmie OHKOing with Hydro Pump. Even with Slack Off recovery, not particularly threatening.
      • Specially Defensive: Celebi and Latios still do respectable damage, as does Starmie. Garchomp's Outrage 2HKOs, and a boosted Terrakion will be doing good damage too. Still not much threat, as everything in my team can do something.

      [​IMG] Jellicent
      • Utility Counter: Celebi can take Scalds and Shadow Balls well and heal off the damage, Garchomp's Outrage 2HKOs again, Latios' Draco Meteor manages to just about OHKO. There may be a couple of burns involved, but there are multiple ways of getting rid of it.

      [​IMG] Jirachi
      • Specially Defensive: Celebi manages to outspeed and paralyse, which helps a great deal. Garchomp can take care of the situation easily with Earthquake, and Terrakion should be able to boost once or twice with the paralysis support factored in. Not as much of a threat as more offensive Jirachi sets.

      [​IMG] Latias
      • Support: The usual steamrolling with Latios, Starmie or Garchomp can work here, as usual. It's just a matter of being able to do as much damage as quickly as possible, which isn't that hard for a team full of powerful attacks, right?


        • [​IMG] Mew
          • Stallbreaker: Terrakion being faster than Mew lets me set up Subs before a Will-o-Wisp, so that's not an issue. It it lacks the coverage move Shadow Ball, then being able to Draco Meteor it to death is a real possibility. Not much of a threat, but can be annoying if I accidentally let it burn something that really could have done without it.

          [​IMG] Ninetales
          • Specially Defensive: The coverage moves given to most Ninetales like this are an obligatory Fire-type attack and seemingly HP Rock, both of which Garchomp resist. Probably the best bet for getting rid of it quickly, though Heatran could still do well despite the added bulk.

          [​IMG] Politoed
          • Defensive: Not really a threat at all as long as either Latios or Celebi are still kicking. Latios can fire out Draco Meteor, while Celebi can survive the defensive set well and Giga Drain it to death.

          [​IMG] Porygon2
          • Defensive: Again, I've not faced one in battle, but it seems it would be down to Terrakion to get the job done by boosting its Attack stat, with perhaps Latios waiting as backup with some power ready.

          [​IMG] Quagsire
          • Physically Defensive: Weak SDef and not great HP, along with that typing, means that it's an obvious target for Celebi. Latios just falls short of OHKOing with Draco Meteor, but is also an obvious option, as is Starmie for the neutral coverage.

          [​IMG] Rotom-H
          • Choice Scarf: Latios outspeeds, and is able to OHKO with all three of the damaging moves it has. Heatran can switch in on the obvious Overheat, and Garchomp resists or is immune to both of the STAB types that Rotom-H carries.

          [​IMG] Rotom-W
          • Specially Defensive: Potentially a problem, but the low Speed means that it becomes prey to both Garchomp and Terrakion, which can dispose of it quickly. The offensive sets are more of a threat than the defensive set.

          [​IMG] Sableye
          • Prankster: Heatran manages to do well in walling the Prankster set, immune to Will-o-Wisp, with it only powering up the Fire Blast that it beats the Ghost-type with. Both Garchomp and Terrakion fear being burned by priority Will-o-Wisp, though Celebi would probably also fare well against it.

          [​IMG] Skarmory
          • Physically Defensive: Heatran and Celebi can share between them the job of taking care of Skarmory sets, with neither of them really caring for Brave Bird's damage - not very effective against Heatran and easily healable for Celebi - and roast it with Fire-type attacks instead.
          • Specially Defensive: The added special bulk in the set doesn't help a whole lot, much like Forretress. Heatran and Celebi are still able to defeat it using the exact same means.

          [​IMG] Slowbro
          • Tank: Any sets lacking Flamethrower or Fire Blast can be dealt with by Celebi, but it does take a surprising amount of damage from them if they are used. Latios seems to be a good go-to for this threat, Draco Meteor OHKOing, and in a pinch Garchomp can also OHKO with Outrage, though must be wary of Ice Beam or Scald burns.

          [​IMG] Starmie
          • Bulky Rapid Spin: Just like the more offensive Starmie set, it can be dealt with by Celebi and Latios separately - the former tanking attacks and the latter just flat-out pulling it apart.

          [​IMG] Tangrowth
          • Defensive: Sets lacking Earthquake - or if Air Balloon is still there - can be handled pretty well by Heatran's Fire Blast. Celebi is also up there for good counters, taking little damage from Power Whips and weak HP Ice, being immune to Leech Seed and being able to hit back semi-hard with HP Fire.

          [​IMG] Tentacruel
          • Sub + Toxic: Latios manages to outspeed Tentacruel and OHKO with Psyshock, while Tentacruel can do little in return - the same situation with Starmie. If that fails for some reason, Celebi would be able to hold up fairly well, doing neutral damage with Giga Drain while keeping up recovery.
          • Protect: Exactly the same as above, just with less faffing around with working around Substitutes involved. Latios and Starmie both OHKO with Psyshock easily.

          [​IMG] Tyranitar
          • Specially Defensive: As with the offensive sets, Terrakion is of course able to do simply huge amounts of damage. Garchomp is also there, with Earthquake being a solid OHKO.

          [​IMG] Vaporeon
          • Rest Hydration: Usually an incredibly annoying set to face, this team manages to work around it this time using sheer force. Garchomp's Choice Band Outrage straight-up OHKOs 248/252+ Vaporeon, with there always being the option to send in Celebi and Latios, both of which are perfectly able to cope with it by themselves.
          • Wish Support: The same as above, the power of the team manages to finally push straight through something that should be a rather large threat for once.

          [​IMG] Venusaur
          • SubSeed: Celebi manages to wall this set completely, even with Drought powering up HP Fire, and hit back with its own. Being immune to Leech Seed is a blessing in a situation like this, taking little damage from the set in general because of that.

          [​IMG] Wobbuffet
          • Max Speed: It's said that one of the best Wobbuffet "counters" is to simply deter it from switching in by throwing around powerful attacks. Garchomp and Terrakion are my Wobbuffet "counters", both able to take it on and win, the former in the most spectacular way - by OHKOing it.
          • Bulky: By. OHKOing. It.

          [​IMG] Xatu
          • Standard: The main Pokémon used to defeat Xatu here is Heatran. It isn't affected by Toxic, doesn't care for Heat Wave, though this set does care about being paralysed. Oh well, two out of three isn't bad. Terrakion is always an option in the background, STAB Stone Edge scaring the bird away, and Latios is sure to do a huge chunk of damage with Draco Meteor.
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

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    This is a pretty solid team, but I feel as though there are some common archetypes that will give you quite a few headaches. For one, you're going to hate rain offense. The only reliable answer you have is Celebi, as both Latios and Starmie are 2HKOed by resisted Water-type moves (Choice Specs Politoed can even OHKO your Starmie!). While Celebi threatens rain teams with Thunder Wave paralysis, the problem of opposing Thundurus-T or other status absorbers still looms overhead. I also see a bit of a Tyranitar weakness, though this is more to the less common offensive variants without Choice items. They pick off Latios, Starmie, and Celebi (though admittedly, they probably can't take all three down in one game) and while you can threaten them with Terrakion, they can stay in to prevent the setup and bring out the appropriate answer.

    I didn't really want to take apart your FWG core to patch this up, but you have to realize that FWG cores are no longer very relevant in this metagame. Tornadus-T, Dragons, and many other prevalent offensive threats can pick these cores apart, so it's more important that you carry a Steel-type and an appropriate answer to incoming Hurricanes. While specially defensive Rotom-W is no permanent answer to Tornadus-T by any means, if you play well, you'll be able to prevent its onslaught. I think that you should give Rotom-W with a spread of 248 HP / 32 SpA / 228 SpD, a Calm nature, and a moveset of Hydro Pump / Volt Switch / Thunder Wave / Pain Split a shot. You say you want an answer to Breloom, but Celebi is really not a longterm answer, and you already can take it down with Garchomp or Starmie if you play well. This change keeps rain teams at bay for a little while longer than they would normally be, but it does cost you an answer to Keldeo. However, you've got Latios to pick up some slack if need be, and if you're facing Choice Specs or Calm Mind variants, Starmie is more than enough. Thunder Wave cripples any switch-in, and it's especially handy for nabbing setup opportunities and forcing switches.

    If you decide that Celebi is too important to give up, there are other fixes you can try. A specially defensive Jirachi can work in the place of Heatran, and with Body Slam, you can spread paralysis even further, easing a Terrakion or Garchomp sweep. A simple set with a spread of 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD with a Careful nature and a moveset of Body Slam / Iron Head / Wish / U-turn should suffice, as it preserves momentum, threatens switch-ins with status, and beats down Tyranitar with STAB. Wish can also come in handy when you need to replenish one of your sweepers, though you can try Protect over U-turn to trade longevity of Jirachi for momentum. However, you'll need to depend on two Pokemon to cover rain teams, which can be a bit annoying at times when you can't get Stealth Rock off the field without losing momentum. I don't have much else to say. Cool team and good luck. I hope this helped.
  4. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

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    Hi

    Your team has a couple of issues, but the main problem I see with it is that it's pretty weak to strong Special Attackers, especially Tornadus-T and Latios. Tornadus-T is faster than 5 out of your 6 Pokemon and beats pretty much everything on 1 on 1, except Latios, who can't really switch in except if you double switch Pokemon 1 -> Heatran -> Latios, but even then, odds are Tornadus-T is U-turning out anyway. Latios is pretty much in the same situation as Draco Meteor deals at least 50% to everything on your team, including Heatran, your only Dragon resist. I think that Latios isn't that great of a scarfer either; it's extremely easy to trap by Tyranitar and Scizor as they switch in without taking a lot of damage and can just Pursuit, meaning your scarfer is dead. Keeping your scarfer alive for the whole game is pretty important in my opinion as it's going to be something you want to fall back on often. I'd recommend using Scarf Jirachi instead of Latios. Jirachi does a lot for your team actually. While it certainly isn't the bulkiest version of Jirachi, it's a pretty neat check to Tornadus-T and Latios, and it can also keep up the momentum with U-turn, something that Starmie, Terrakion and Garchomp are definetely going to appreciate.

    However that makes you weaker to Venusaur, so I'd recommend changing Heatran's held item to Shed Shell, allowing it to escape Dugtrio. Air Balloon is neat but you won't be lasting very long against Sun if Dugtrio traps Heatran.

    Since you said you're using Starmie to check Keldeo, perhaps you should be using a different set. Without Latios to take Fighting/Water attacks too, I think that you should be using the bulkier Starmie set. This set will allow Starmie to last for the entire game, which makes it a lot more effective as a Keldeo check, and also as a Rapid Spinner. I don't think your team really needs the offensive presence Life Orb Starmie provides as it isn't extremely offensive.

    Here are the sets you should use:
    Jirachi and Starmie (open)

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Serene Grace
    Jolly
    EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
    ~Iron Head
    ~Ice Punch
    ~Fire Punch
    ~U-turn

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Natural Cure
    Timid
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
    ~Scald
    ~Psyshock
    ~Recover
    ~Rapid Spin


    Good luck!
  5. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Hey!

    I wanted to rate this team yesterday but it was late so I didn't get to it. I remember rating one of your teams before so why not another right? x3

    Okay so your new to Heavy Offense! Offense > Stall, imo, and I'll be glad to help you out:

    Firstly, Starmie is ass unless you have a SR weak Pokemon. Deo-D teams aren't that threatening, and none of your Pokemon have a soft spot for SR so I would say you really don't need it. The reason I want Starmie gone is bad is beacuse you have three, goddamn psychic types, and you are really, really, really Banded Tyrantiar Pursuit weak.

    CM Jirachi looks like a serious threat, so I recommend taking Thunder Wave off Celebi for Perish Song so CM variants are forced out (and thus solved). I know its a defensive tactic (and I hate those) but it gets the job done so try that out.

    You say Starmie checks Keldeo, but bullshit Celebi does it better. Keldeo literally cannot touch Celebi unless it has like +3, even the specs variants have trouble getting past Celebi.


    RP Landorus-I sweeps you. Basically, you said your best plan was a miracle, and since I don't believe in the ladder we have some fixing to do.

    Okay, so I think it's obvious I'm going to recommend you take Starmie the fuck off this team. I'm going to recommend SDef Rotom-W in Starmie's place. Heatran is the only thing that can take a Hurricane, and quite frankly, rain beats Heatran every time. Rotom-W puts ease rain alongside Celebi (since they practically cover every rain threat bar NP Thundy-T, which Latios and Rak take quite nicely). With that said, Lando-I can only do around 53% to Rotom-W with Focus Blast so it's literally the best offensive counter you can find. It also maintains your FGW core (however; like Harsha said, that doesn't really matter. Especially offensive teams, we don't give a fuck, but its nice to have).

    Ok, so now that we've replaced Starmie for Rotom-W, I would like to make a few changes to Celebi. I would use Psychic over Hidden Power Fire to hit Breloom harder (since quite threatening otherwise). Like I said earlier, by using Perish Song over TWave to solve your CM Jirachi issues (you could also replace Recover if you want to keep Thunder Wave but the downsides are a lack of recovery so your pick).

    On Heatran, 2 Atk IVs lower the HP's base power. So go back to 30. Same for Celebi smh. Never invest 4 HP on an offensive pokemon since it increases SR damage. Put into Def / SDef.

    I'd recommend that Jirachi > Heatran (sicne rachi is usually better) but your sun boned otherwise so D: GL!
  6. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ᴜияᴇᴄᴏɢиɪsαβʟᴇ
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Messages:
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    I don't intend on sounding mean, but this statement is utter crap. 2 IVs are used in Intergalactic's sets to minimize confusion damage, and Hidden Power Fire / Ice can substitute 2 IVs in for stats that require 30 IVs. A list of IVs that grant Hidden Powers with a base power of 70 can be found here. Also, image proof of the invalidity of your statement can be found below.

    2 Atk / 30 Def -> base 70 HP Ice (open)
    [​IMG]


    30 Atk / 30 Def -> base 70 HP Ice (open)
    [​IMG]


    Basically saying, either one works. It's just that Intergalactic likes having the lowered Attack IVs so he can minimize confusion damage.
  7. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
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    1,125
    Hi there.
    It is a very solid and very effective team, then I appreciate a lot your Celebi set, but I see that you are weak against Tornadus-T, even if you possess Heatran, he is OHKO by Focus Blast because Tornadus-T has the item (Life Orb), then the opponent can switch if you put Latios and come after to continue, then I see that you are also weak against Latios Scarf/Life Orb, as Latios has the move Surf and it OHKO Heatran, Celebi is 2HKO by Hidden Power Fire + Draco Meteor , then you are very disadvantaged against Reuniclus CM Bulk, it is 3HKO by Draco Meteor of Latios after a Calm mind and Garchomp 2HKO him with Outrage and Celebi can not do anything. If the opponent has Volcarona with Hidden Power Ground you can not do anything, it OHKO Terrakion, it OHKO Heatran, you're very disadvantaged against Gyarados DD also, I suggest you to Rotom-W on Starmie, Rotom is a very good pokemon for your team, it is a very good counter for Landorus-I/Volcarona and it has Will O Wisp + Paint split, then it can easily come on Gyarados, but your team is weak against Latios/Reuniclus/Tornadus-T, I suggest you to Jirachi on Latios, Jirachi is a very good counter Latios/Reuniclus/Tornadus-T because it has his ability (Serene Grace) with Iron head+Body Slam, and then Jirachi has Wish with this move you can heal your pokemon because you have an offensive Team, and then now you can come easily on Espeon/Stoutland (without Fire Fang) / Latias/Alakazam.

    Jirachi (open)

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Wish


    Rotom-W (open)
    Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Pain Split


    Hope I Helped and Good Luck with your Team.
  8. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    Thank you all very much for your rates, they're very much appreciated, especially since I barely know what I'm doing when it comes to offensive teams. It looks like the general consensus is that the team needs Jirachi and SDef Rotom-W, which is good, at least I know how to use those two, so Starmie will definitely be going in favour of the latter. With the variety of Jirachi sets proposed in the thread so far, the Scarf Jirachi suggested by Jirachi (huh) jumps out at me as being my favourite. I don't lose a Choice Scarf Pokémon, the team keeps at least some respectable Speed, and it gives me yet another Pokémon to use that I am familiar with, so thank you very much for that.

    As Trinitrotoluene mentioned, the IVs used for all the Hidden Power moves used on the team are perfectly fine, and give it a Base Power of 70 for whichever type it may be, so there is no problem there. I didn't realise that putting 4 EVs into HP on sweepers was that bad of a thing, however, so I will be changing that - thanks for bringing that to my attention, Shurtugal.

    I'm not really open to the idea of replacing Heatran's, as was mentioned, it would leave me definitely open to Drought teams, so I'm afraid I'll have to decline any suggestions as to what to replace it with. Sorry about that, but I would be torn apart by Venusaur otherwise. I mean moreso than I am now.

    Thanks for all the rates, guys. Looks like posting an RMT for this team was a good idea after all. Time to change my set images and such now, I guess. Screw changing the threatlist, I don't know why I bothered writing it in the first place - it was always going to change immediately.

    Changes (open)
    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf | Serene Grace
    Jolly | 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spd
    Iron Head | Ice Punch | Fire Punch | U-Turn


    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W @ Leftovers | Levitate
    Calm | 252 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Spd
    Will-o-Wisp | Hydro Pump | Volt Switch | Pain Split


    Garchomp: 4 HP EVs < 4 Def EVs
    Terrakion: 4 HP EVs < 4 SDef EVs
  9. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Please. Banded Garchomp and SubSalac Terrakion appreciates TWave Rotom-W over WoW. Also, can you tell us which pokes (besides Starmie) that you replaced for Jirachi? Also, the standard set is 248 Hp / 28 SAtk / 232 SDef. Walls Tornadus-T and Landorus-I better imo.

    On Jirachi, I just don't feel Fire Punch is needed with Heatran so change that for either Healing Wish (Terrakion late game sweeps ~~~~) or Trick.

    Also, wouldn't you want max speed Jirachi to speed tie with Scarf Salamence, I would hate you to switch into it and get 2HKO'd because of +1 and lack of speed to outpace it. This is also helpful for outpacing +1 base 100s in general (mainly DD Salamence) but also outpacing max timid scarf Genesect for PO tiers.

    ~~ GL :D
  10. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    Paralysis support is still provided by Celebi. CM Jirachi can be beaten in other ways, and I'd rather not sacrifice a moveslot that's proven itself time and time again just to cover one main threat. On top of that, I believe Will-o-Wisp will be of some use - I currently have two specially defensive Pokémon with nothing physically defensive, I'll be appreciating the burns whenever they come.

    Jirachi has replaced Latios as the Choice Scarfer of the team. I'll think about replacing Fire Punch with Healing Wish, I know how useful that can be, thank you.

    Since PO still see Garchomp as Uber, I don't battle using it much anymore, but I guess max Speed would be the better option. I don't know why I'm not picking this kind of thing up today, ugh.

    Oh wait, yes I do, I've had 3 hours sleep since I posted this RMT.

    edit: Why do you keep suggesting things that make sense. ;~; Stop, you're embarrassing me.

    Scarf Latias intrigues me, as I mentioned through VMs. And yes, now that you mention it, Thunder Wave on Rotom-W does make sense. At least it will give me a much better chance (read: a chance at all) of paralysing something like Tornadus-T, which would still be a small problem for the team. I'm going to assume Scarf Latias is exactly the same set as Latios?
  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
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    Scarf Latias > Scarf Jirachi. I was thinking this so you tank fighting hits better since obviously they bone you right now (otherwise think SDSalac Terrakion getting into salac range at +2.... yeah easy 6:0).

    Just because celebi has twave doesn't mean wash can't run it either. The double coverage between them and synergy is amazing and running twave on both only ensures a very slow opposition. WoW has almost no utility in this metagame bro

    edit: Yep. Same spread. However, you could use Healing Wish over Trick ~~~~~~
  12. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor

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    Hey I got your request nice weatherless team! I love the Celetran core and its good to see it get some love.

    Ok so as your threatlist mentions your team does have a tough time against some Calm Mind sweepers namely Espeon, Jirachi and Latias. Espeon with its great speed threatens your team at +1 and it also outpseeds your whole team regarding Latias who can't do much in return. Substitute+Calm Mind Jirachi can gain set up oppurtinities on Rotom-W, Celebi, Heatran, and Latias. While behind the safety of a Substitute can threaten Garchomp and Terrakion. Latias works in a similar way using its great speed and ability to set up on Rotom-W and Celebi to its advantage.

    The simplest way to help you against these Calm Minds sweepers without changing to much would be using a Specially Defensive Heatran>Current Heatran with its good resistances, special bulk and Roar Heatran can continue to phaze out these special attackers making it harder for them to gain set up oppurtunities. Although Heatran itself can't ko these special attackers with its ability to phaze out these Pokemon you get more oppurtunities to beat them with other Pokemon like Terrakion and Garchomp. The change is also just a moveset change meaning it doesn't wreck anything synergy wise. Lava Plume is used over Flamethrower for its 30% burn rate.

    Good luck with the team I hope I helped!

    Set
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
    Timid | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock | Lava Plume | Earthpower | Roar

    TL:DR
    Show Hide

    Heatran
    .Offensive Set--->Defensive Set



    ~Superpowerdude
  13. Intergalactic

    Intergalactic

    Joined:
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    Sorry for the (very) late reply, the last few days have been pretty busy with college and whatnot. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Roar's not going to do much (or anything) for the team versus Espeon, but I can definitely see how it's going to help against other CM sweepers. The burn chance of Lava Plume should be useful, and keeping the Speed of the previous set will be great. I did some testing on it last night, and I didn't really find myself missing the Hidden Power the previous set had, so I'll be editing it into the RMT shortly. Thanks very much, man.

    And thanks to everyone else that's commented and Luvdisc'd this thread. Seriously.

    EDIT: And I only just found out that this RMT was in the running for RMT of the Week. How slow am I at picking this kind of thing up? It ended up third out of three in the polls, but I'd like to extend a simply huge and sincere thank you to the five people that voted for it, it really means a lot. Show yourselves so I can hug you, please.

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