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OU Seismitoad

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by SomePumpkinPie, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Overview
    ########

    Seismitoad is an unusual rain sweeper that has carved a niche in OU as the only Swift Swim user with an Electric immunity. This immunity means that Seismitoad's sweep cannot be cut short by Prankster Thundurus's Thunder Wave and grants it easy switch-in opportunities against threatening Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou. Seismitoad also sports respectable 105 / 75 / 75 bulk and access to useful coverage moves such as Focus Blast and Sludge Wave, which allow it to hit common threats to rain teams such as Ferrothorn and Azumarill for super effective damage.

    Seismitoad's main weakness is its sub par base 85 Special Attack stat; while its rain-boosted Hydro Pump is still powerful, Seismitoad's coverage moves are often disappointingly weak, and it can struggle to make an impact against more defensive teams. Seismitoad is also totally dependent on external rain support from Politoed or Damp Rock Rain Dance users to function in OU, as it is far too slow and weak to sweep without it.

    Rain Sweeper
    ########
    name: Rain Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Sludge Wave
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Seismitoad's strong Water-type STAB and very high Speed thanks to its Swift Swim ability make it an effective sweeper in the rain. Rain-boosted Hydro Pump is by far the most powerful move in Seismitoad's arsenal, dealing excellent damage in spite of its low base Special Attack. Earth Power is a reliable secondary STAB. Focus Blast is mainly used to land the 2HKO on Ferrothorn, a problematic Pokemon for many rain teams, but it also hits other notable Pokémon such as Kyurem-B. Sludge Wave deals great damage to Azumarill, another Pokemon whose resistances, bulk, and offensive power cause rain teams trouble.

    Surf and Scald can be used instead of Hydro Pump if the latter's accuracy is a sticking point, but Seismitoad really wants the power granted by Hydro Pump to score the 2HKOs and OHKOs it needs to sweep. Knock Off is an interesting option that punishes Chansey and Blissey for switching in, and 2HKOs Latios and Latias, but Seismitoad struggles to fit it into its moveset as its other coverage moves are generally more desirable. Finally, Sludge Bomb can be used over Sludge Wave; while the added chance to poison would usually make it a more desirable option, Sludge Wave is able to hit Bulletproof Chesnaught, a Pokemon that can wall common rain sweepers such as Kabutops. If none of Seismitoad's teammates are threatened by Chesnaught, Sludge Bomb would be the preferred option.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EV spread maximizes Seismitoad's Speed and power. Life Orb is the preferred item as Seismitoad greatly appreciates the power boost and the ability to switch moves. A Timid nature and an EV spread of 68 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe can be used to allow Seismitoad to outspeed Deoxys-S and fast Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp in the rain, but the power loss is very noticeable. For example, while a Seismitoad running this EV spread outspeeds Choice Scarf Garchomp, its Hydro Pump is no longer powerful enough to reliably OHKO it after Stealth Rock damage.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    In the rain, Seismitoad is very fast, hits very hard with Hydro Pump, and its Electric immunity means its sweep cannot be cut short by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave; thus it can serve as an effective win condition if bulky Water- and Grass-types are sufficiently worn down by other rain sweepers. Seismitoad can also be used to set up other rain sweepers for a sweep, as its good coverage can be used to weaken common rain checks such as Azumarill and Ferrothorn.

    Seismitoad's good defensive typing and respectable bulk means it has no issues switching in on most Electric-types. It can aggressively switch in on Pokemon such as Thundurus and Raikou if they come in to check or counter your other rain sweepers.

    Seismitoad is dependent on rain support in order to sweep, and rain turns are limited. While Seismitoad can 2HKO Pokemon such as physically defensive Sylveon and specially defensive Clefable, if they find a free switch-in, they can easily stall out all of your rain turns by using Wish and Protect. If you predict Protect, you can use the opportunity to switch out Seismitoad and bring in another sweeper for free.

    Team Options
    ========

    Seismitoad is completely dependent on rain support to function in OU, so Drizzle Politoed is a mandatory partner. Damp Rock Deoxys-S is another useful teammate as when used in the lead slot it can almost guarantee the setup of Stealth Rock and 8-turn rain.

    In general, Seismitoad works well with rain sweepers that are either vulnerable to being crippled by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave or are otherwise checked or countered by fast Electric-types such as Mega Manectric or Raikou. Seismitoad's bulk and typing mean it has no trouble switching in on these Pokemon, and in the rain it poses an immediate threat to your opponent's team. This means that Seismitoad is an excellent partner for other Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Kingdra as well as regular rain sweepers such as Keldeo and Tornadus.

    In return, Seismitoad appreciates teammates that can switch into and break through the bulky Grass- and Water-types and dedicated special walls that can easily handle its attacks. Grass-resistant pivots such as Tornadus-T and Scizor can easily switch in on the bulky Grass-types that threaten Seismitoad and also have the option of using U-turn to keep momentum in your favor. Pokemon who resist Water-type moves such as Kingdra, Kyurem-B, and Latios can switch in on bulky Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune and cause trouble. Strong Fighting-types like Keldeo make good teammates as they directly threaten special walls such as Chansey and Blissey, but Seismitoad also meshes well with Pokemon that can lure the aforementioned threats in. Two good examples are Knock Off + Superpower Thundurus and Tornadus; these Pokemon can lure Chansey in with the threat of powerful Thunders or Hurricanes and score a 2HKO by using Knock Off to remove Chansey's Eviolite before finishing it off with Superpower.

    Other Options
    ########

    Seismitoad's mediocre base stats and awkward movepool limit its ability to effectively perform other roles. Seismitoad learns Stealth Rock and can make use of it if you have no other options for setting up the entry hazard, but its inability to threaten Latias and Latios, the most common Defog users, is a major problem. Seismitoad can use Rain Dance to function as a secondary weather inducer to ease the stress on Politoed; with its good bulk and typing, Seismitoad has many opportunities to set up Rain Dance, but it comes at the expense of coverage options. Seismitoad has access to a few other coverage moves such as Icy Wind, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Electric, which could be used to hit specific targets, but these moves are very weak in general and much less viable than the moves on the main set. As Seismitoad's Attack stat is higher than its Special Attack stat, a physical Swift Swim set may seem appealing, but without a physical Water STAB move it is inferior to the listed special set. In BW, Seismitoad saw niche use in OU with a physically defensive Water Absorb set, but rain teams are now less common, and most popular OU Water-types can 2HKO defensive Seismitoad regardless of Water Absorb. This means that defensive Seismitoad is generally outclassed by other bulky Ground-types such as Hippowdon, which has superior bulk and access to reliable recovery.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Bulky Grass-types** Grass-types resist Seismitoad's STAB Hydro Pump and can inflict massive damage with their own STAB attacks. However, Ferrothorn needs to be mindful of Focus Blast, and other Grass-types risk being KOed by Sludge Wave, so they often only function as strong checks, but Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss are hard counters to Seismitoad.

    **Bulky Water-types** Solid Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune resist Seismitoad's Water-type STAB, take little damage from its coverage moves, and threaten it with their own Water-type STAB moves that are boosted by the rain.

    **Bulky Dragon-types** Goodra, Latias, and Latios resist Seismitoad's Water STAB and take little damage from most of its coverage moves. However, Latias and Latios need to be wary of Knock Off.

    **Dedicated special walls** Seismitoad's low base Special Attack means that it cannot break through special walls such as Blissey, Chansey, and specially defensive Sylveon, even in the rain.

    **Powerful, Water-resistant Pokemon** In a pinch, most Water-resistant Pokemon that aren't weak to one of Seismitoad's coverage moves can serve as a check to it. Pokemon such as Keldeo and Dragonite are barely 2HKOed by its coverage moves and can easily OHKO in return.

    bullet point format (open)
    Overview
    ########
    • Carves its niche in OU as the only Swift Swim Pokémon with an electric immunity
    • This means Seismitoad is immune to Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave, one of the most common methods of speed control in OU, and one of the key tools offensive teams have to disrupt rain teams
    • base special attack is low but still hits hard with stab, life orb, rain boosted Hydro Pump, and it has useful coverage options that can hit several key threats to rain teams
    • respectable 105/75/75 bulk and good defensive typing can make it difficult to revenge kill Seismitoad with priority
    • totally dependent on rain support to function
    • can struggle a little against more defensive teams as it isn't absurdly powerful
    • works best when supporting other more powerful rain sweepers



    Rain Sweeper
    ########
    name: Rain Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Sludge Wave
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========
    • STAB Hydro Pump with Life Orb and the rain boost is extremely powerful, even coming from a low base special attack. This is Seismitoad's most dangerous weapon
    • Earth Power is a reliable secondary STAB
    • Focus Blast hits Pokémon such as Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B and is quite powerful
    • Sludge Wave donks Azumarill, a huge threat to rain teams
    • Knock Off is usable and punishes Chansey and Blissey for switching in. As Seismitoad has a respectable base 95 attack it also hits Latias and Latios fairly hard, even uninvested
    • Surf and Scald offer more reliable stab options but with his low base special attack, Seismitoad prefers the more powerful Hydro Pump
    • Sludge Bomb is usable over Sludge Wave but Sludge Wave hits Chesnaught, who can be a problem pokemon if you're running Kabutops. Without Kabutops Sludge Bomb is probably the better move

    Set Details
    ========

    • Swift Swim doubles Seismitoad's speed under the rain, making him very fast (Seismitoad outspeeds +1 Jolly ZardX with the given spread).
    • A Timid nature can be used to outspeed Deoxys-S and fast Choice Scarfed Pokémon like Garchomp in the rain, but the loss of power is very noticeable and with his low base spatk Seismitoad needs all the power he can muster
    • Life Orb gives you much-needed power and allows you to swap moves

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • How general do these have to be? Looking at the analyses for other rain sweepers like Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo I see a lot of stuff like 'don't waste rain turns, keep Politoed alive, double switching is good' which isn't really Seismitoad specific but could be included if wanted
    • Very fast and hits very hard in the rain, so can serve as a win condition against offensive teams if bulky water/grass types are sufficiently worn down beforehand by other rain sweepers. Seismitoad's electric immunity means his sweep cannot be stopped by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave (this is his main niche over other rain sweepers)
    • Can also be used to set up other rain sweepers for a sweep, as his good coverage can be used to weaken common rain checks like Azumarill and Ferrothorn.
    • Can aggressively switch into Thundurus thanks to his good defensive typing and bulk, as there really isn't much Thundurus can do in return (besides the very rare Grass Knot). Useful if you suspect Prankster Thunder Waves or electric attacks are headed towards your teammates

    Team Options
    ========

    • Politoed
    • Seismitoad pairs well with other rain sweepers that are vulnerable to being crippled by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave or are otherwise checked/countered by fast electric types such as Thundurus or Raikou. Seismitoad's solid bulk, electric immunity, and decent defensive typing means it can easily switch into these Pokémon and pose an immediate threat to the opponent's team
    • this means Swift Swimmers like Kingdra or Kabutops are good partners, as well as regular rain sweepers like Tornadus and Keldeo
    • Seismitoad appreciates teammates that can switch in on and break through the bulky water-types and grass-types that he struggles to hurt
    • Grass-resistant pivots like Tornadus-T and Scizor trivially switch in on the bulky grass types that threaten Seismitoad and have the option of U-Turn to keep momentum in your favor
    • Water-resistant or water-immune Pokémon such as Kingdra, Kyurem-B and Toxicroak can switch in on bulky waters and cause trouble
    • Deoxys-S is a strong lead for the kind of offensive rain teams Seismitoad works well on, as it can almost always guarantee setup of Stealth Rock and Damp Rock-boosted rain
    Other Options
    ########
    • Stealth Rock
    • other more niche special moves such as Grass Knot, Icy Wind, and Hidden Power Grass/Electric: very weak, but can be used to hit specific targets
    • Seismitoad has higher base attack than special attack, but no physical water STAB, so physical sets are a waste of time
    • Please don't try a defensive Water Absorb set. Maybe it's worth stressing that the B/W Seismitoad analysis was from a different era, and that defensive Water Absorb sets have no place in X/Y OU?


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    • Bulky grass-types like Mega Venusaur or Amoonguss
    • Bulky water-types like Rotom-W or Suicune
    • Bulky dragon types like Latias (or Goodra...?)
    • Dedicated special walls like Chansey or specially defensive Sylveon
    • most offensive water-resistant Pokémon have the capacity to check Seismitoad so long as they are not cripplingly weak to one of his coverage moves. Examples include Keldeo and Dragonite

    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  2. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

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    This quite well done. As for usage tips, you can include some general tips on how to play Seismitoad, but what you have is solid already.

    QC Approved 1/4

    [​IMG]
  3. The Village Idiot

    The Village Idiot

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    Is he ready for QC?
  4. Explorer

    Explorer

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    Definitely add Ferrothorn as a partner, since they have very good defensive synergy. Furthermore, Ferrothorn can set up numerous hazards to allow Seismitoad to sweep more easily. Mamoswine, while having some synergy issues with Seismitoad, can use Ice Shard to pick off the Base 100+ Speed Scarf Crew (Landorus, Garchomp, Salamence) so Seismitoad can run Modest with less hesitance.
  5. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    This looks pretty ready and well-written, so be sure to change the tag to "Quality Control."

    [​IMG]
    QC 2/4
  6. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    meh, it isn't really that strong...everything besides rain hydro hits for pretty ass damage. just note that, and

    qc 3/4
  7. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    thanks for qc checks, will write this up as soon as is feasible (moving back to uni accommodation tomorrow + have some coursework to catch up on)
  8. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    This is written up and I think it's ready for the 4th QC check.

    Thanks for the input, I tried both of the mons you suggested. I decided against including Mamoswine in the analysis since Seismitoad is probably being paired with other, faster Swift Swim users like Kingdra/Kabutops who can rk fast Scarfers and Deoxys-S, so Mamo wasn't really much use. After doing some laddering I also decided against including Ferrothorn: while you make some convincing arguments, in practice I found that Ferrothorn just sapped the energy out of my team- it wasted rain turns, and while it has good matchups against a lot of scary mons it's hard to find appropriate Pokemon to switch into when the opponent brings in a Ferrothorn counter. I'm aware that Ferrothorn's role on rain teams is a bit controversial this gen so if QC feels it would be appropriate to include it I'd be happy to
  9. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Wonderful job.

    For the sake of mention, add Rain Dance to either Other Options or Moves, since rain can only last so many turns, and Seismitoed definitely has opportunities to set it up at many given times to help itself due to its decent typing and bulk.

    You may also consider mentioning in "Team Options" several methods of how to eliminate special walls, especially Chansey and Sylveon which can stall out your rain turns. Kabutops can only offer so much, so other methods are preferable.
  10. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

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    Speaking of Chansey, Knock Off should get an oo mention, an accompanying Kingdra would certainly enjoy this. It also 2HKOs latios!

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 Atk Life Orb Seismitoad Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  11. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    I actually mentioned KO already in the 'moves' section since I felt it was much much better than most of the shit I was listing in OO. I could move it to OO if it would be more appropriate there?

    I'll add this, thank you. I focused on breaking through Chansey since Seismitoad actually beats physically defensive Sylveon no problem and looking at the analysis, specially defensive Sylveon only gets a brief mention, so idk if it's worth specifically preparing for it. It can stall out rain turns with Wish/Protect if it gets a free switch in or Hydro Pump misses, so maybe I could mention that in usage tips?
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  12. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

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    lol my bad. I briefly skimmed it and didnt see it there. carry on.
  13. CyclicCompound

    CyclicCompound ,,,@ ::
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    Alright, this analysis looks pretty great. Just one thing I noticed at the very start:
    I think "flawed" may be a little misleading here. Its main downside is that outside of beating Electric-types it's not as good as other Swift Swim sweepers, but it's not inherently flawed by itself. If it was truly flawed, it wouldn't be getting an analysis.

    Other than that this looks great. Nice job on the write-up.

    QC 4/4
  14. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    Fixed, thank you.
  15. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Overview
    ########

    Seismitoad is an unusual rain sweeper that carves its has carved a niche in OU as the only Swift Swim user with an Electric immunity. This immunity means that Seismitoad's sweep cannot be cut short by Prankster Thundurus's Thunder Wave, (remove comma) and grants it easy switch-in opportunities against threatening Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou. Seismitoad also sports respectable 105/75/75 bulk and access to useful coverage moves such as Focus Blast and Sludge Wave, which allow it to hit common threats to rain teams such as Ferrothorn and Azumarill for super effective damage.

    Seismitoad's main weakness is its sub-par base 85 Special Attack stat; while its rain-boosted Hydro Pump is still powerful, Seismitoad's coverage moves are often disappointingly weak, and it can struggle to make an impact against more defensive teams. Seismitoad is also totally dependent on external rain support from Politoed or Damp Rock Rain Dance users to function in OU, as it is far too slow and weak to sweep without it.

    Rain Sweeper
    ########
    name: Rain Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Sludge Wave
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Swift Swim Seismitoad's very high Speed and strong Water STAB make it an effective sweeper in the rain. Rain-boosted Hydro Pump is by far the most powerful move in Seismitoad's arsenal, dealing excellent damage in spite of Seismitoad's its low base Special Attack. Earth Power is a reliable secondary STAB. Focus Blast is mainly used to land the 2HKO on Ferrothorn, a problematic Pokemon for many rain teams, but it also hits other notable Pokémon such as Kyurem-B. Sludge Wave deals great damage to Azumarill, another Pokemon whose resistances, bulk, and offensive power cause rain teams trouble.

    Surf and Scald can be used instead of Hydro Pump if the latter's accuracy is a sticking point, but Seismitoad really wants the power granted by Hydro Pump to score the 2HKOs and OHKOs it needs to sweep. Knock Off is an interesting option that punishes Chansey and Blissey for switching in, (add comma) and thanks to Seismitoad's decent base 95 Attack it 2HKOs Latios and Latias, but Seismitoad struggles to fit it into its moveset as its other coverage is generally more desirable. Finally, Sludge Bomb can be used over Sludge Wave; while the added chance to poison would usually make it a more desirable option, Sludge Wave is able to hit Bulletproof Chesnaught, a Pokemon that can wall common rain sweepers such as Kabutops. If none of Seismitoad's teammates are threatened by Chesnaught, Sludge Bomb would be the preferred option.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EV spread maximizes Seismitoad's Speed and power. Life Orb is the preferred item as Seismitoad greatly appreciates the power boost and the ability to switch moves. A Timid nature and an EV spread of 68 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe can be used to allow Seismitoad to outspeed Deoxys-S and fast Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp in the rain, but the power loss is very noticeable. For example, while a Seismitoad running this EV spread outspeeds Choice Scarf Garchomp, its Hydro Pump is no longer powerful enough to reliably OHKO it after Stealth Rock damage.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    In the rain, Seismitoad is very fast, its Hydro Pump hits very hard, and its Electric immunity means its sweep cannot be cut short by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave; this means it can thus serve as an effective win condition if bulky Water- and Grass-types are sufficiently worn down by other rain sweepers. Seismitoad can also be used to set up other rain sweepers for a sweep, as its good coverage can be used to weaken common rain checks such as Azumarill and Ferrothorn.

    Seismitoad's good defensive typing and respectable bulk means it has no issues switching in on most Electric-types. Seismitoad It can aggressively switch in on Pokemon such as Thundurus and Raikou if they come in to check or counter your other rain sweepers.

    Seismitoad is dependent on rain support in order to sweep, and rain turns are limited. While Seismitoad can 2HKO Pokemon such as physically defensive Sylveon and Clefable, if they find a free switch in, (add comma) they can easily stall out all of your rain turns by using Wish + Protect. If you predict Protect, you can use the opportunity to switch out Seismitoad and bring in another sweeper for free.

    Team Options
    ========

    Seismitoad is completely dependent on rain support to function in OU, (add comma) so Drizzle Politoed is a mandatory partner. Damp Rock Deoxys-S is another useful teammate as when used in the lead slot it can almost guarantee the setup of Stealth Rock and Damp Rock-boosted 8-turn rain. (Damp Rock doesn't technically 'boost' rain; it prolongs its duration.)

    In general, Seismitoad works well with rain sweepers that are vulnerable to being crippled by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave or that are otherwise checked or countered by fast Electric-types like Mega Manectric or Raikou. Seismitoad's bulk and defensive typing mean it has no trouble switching in on these Pokemon, and in the rain it poses an immediate threat to your opponent's team. This means that Seismitoad is an excellent partner for other Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Kingdra as well as regular rain sweepers like Keldeo and Tornadus.

    In return, Seismitoad appreciates teammates that can switch in on and break through the bulky Grass- and Water-types and dedicated special walls that can easily handle its attacks. Grass-resistant pivots such as Tornadus-T and Scizor can trivially switch in on the bulky Grass-types that threaten Seismitoad and have the option of U-turn to keep momentum in your favour. Water-resistant and Water-immune Pokemon such as Kingdra, Kyurem-B, (add comma) and Toxicroak can switch in on bulky Waters such as like specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune and cause trouble. Strong Fighting-types such as Keldeo and Toxicroak make good teammates as they directly threaten special walls such as Chansey and Blissey, but Seismitoad also meshes well with Pokemon that can lure Chansey in. Two good examples are Knock Off + Superpower Thundurus and Tornadus; these Pokemon can lure Chansey in with the threat of powerful Thunders or Hurricanes, (remove comma) and score a 2HKO by using Knock Off to remove Chansey's Eviolite before finishing her it off with Superpower.

    Other Options
    ########

    Seismitoad's mediocre base stats and awkward movepool limit its ability to effectively perform other roles. Seismitoad learns Stealth Rock and can make use of it if you have no other options for setting up the hazard, but its inability to threaten Latias and Latios, the most common Defog users, is a major problem. Seismitoad can use Rain Dance to function as a secondary weather inducer to ease the stress on Politoed; with its good bulk and typing, Seismitoad has many opportunities to set up Rain Dance, but it comes at the expense of coverage options. Seismitoad has access to a few other special moves such as Icy Wind, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Electric, which could be used to hit specific targets, though overall these moves are very weak and much less viable than the moves on the main set. As Seismitoad's Attack is higher than its Special Attack, a physical Swift Swim set may seem appealing, but without a physical Water STAB move it is inferior to the listed special set. In BW, Seismitoad saw niche use in OU with a physically defensive Water Absorb set, but the shift to X/Y has made this no longer viable as rain teams are now less common, (add comma) and most popular OU Water-types can 2HKO defensive Seismitoad regardless of Water Absorb. This means that defensive Seismitoad is generally outclassed by other bulky Ground-types such as Hippowdon, which has superior bulk and access to reliable recovery.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Bulky Grass-types** Grass-types resist Seismitoad's STAB Hydro Pump and can inflict massive damage with their own STAB grass attacks. Ferrothorn needs to be mindful of Focus Blast, (add comma) and other Grass-types risk being KOed by Sludge Wave so they often only function as strong checks, but Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss are hard counters to Seismitoad.

    **Bulky Water-types** Solid Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune resist Seismitoad's Water STAB, take little damage from Seismitoad's coverage moves, and threaten him it with their own Water STAB moves that are boosted by the rain.

    **Bulky Dragon-types** Latias and Latios resist Seismitoad's Water STAB and take little damage from most of its coverage moves, but they do need to be wary of Knock Off. Goodra is another strong Seismitoad counter.

    **Dedicated special walls** Seismitoad's low base Special Attack means that it cannot break through Pokemon with very high special defence special walls such as Blissey, Chansey, and specially defensive Sylveon, even in the rain.

    **Powerful, Water-resistant Pokemon** In a pinch, most Water-resistant Pokemon that aren't weak to one of Seismitoad's coverage moves can serve as a Seismitoad check. Pokemon such as Keldeo and Dragonite are barely 2HKOed by Seismitoad's coverage moves and can easily OHKO in return.


    Mostly just capitalisation errors I had to fix; that's nothing you can't fix with a look at the Grammar Standards thread. Good job otherwise, so:

    [​IMG]

    GP 1 / 2
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  16. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    Thank you, I've implemented your changes.

    very late edit: also clarified one of the usage tips to refer to specially defensive Clefable, as physically defensive Clefable can't stall Seismitoad at all.
    Last edited: May 1, 2014
  17. P2X7

    P2X7

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    Amateur check.

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    Overview
    ########

    Seismitoad is an unusual rain sweeper that has carved a niche in OU as the only Swift Swim user with an Electric immunity. This immunity means that Seismitoad's sweep cannot be cut short by Prankster Thundurus's Thunder Wave and grants it easy switch-in opportunities against threatening Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou. Seismitoad also sports respectable 105(Add space)/(Add space)75(Add space)/(Add space)75 bulk and access to useful coverage moves such as Focus Blast and Sludge Wave, which allow it to hit common threats to rain teams such as Ferrothorn and Azumarill for super effective damage.

    Seismitoad's main weakness is its sub-par base 85 Special Attack stat; while its rain-boosted Hydro Pump is still powerful, Seismitoad's coverage moves are often disappointingly weak, and it can struggle to make an impact against more defensive teams. Seismitoad is also totally dependent on external rain support from Politoed or Damp Rock Rain Dance users to function in OU, as it is far too slow and weak to sweep without it.

    Rain Sweeper
    ########
    name: Rain Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Sludge Wave
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Swift Swim Seismitoad's strong Water STAB and very high Speed thanks to its ability, Swift Swim and strong Water STAB make it an effective sweeper in the rain. Rain-boosted Hydro Pump is by far the most powerful move in Seismitoad's arsenal, dealing excellent damage in spite of its low base Special Attack. Earth Power is a reliable secondary STAB that hits the Electric-types that are threatening to rain teams super effectively(I know that this might be kind of unnecessary, but I felt it needed to be said). Focus Blast is mainly used to land the 2HKO on Ferrothorn, a problematic Pokemon for many rain teams, but it also hits other notable Pokémon such as Kyurem-B. Sludge Wave deals great damage to Azumarill, another Pokemon whose resistances, bulk, and offensive power cause rain teams trouble.

    Surf and Scald can be used instead of Hydro Pump if the latter's accuracy is a sticking point, but Seismitoad really wants the power granted by Hydro Pump to score the 2HKOs and OHKOs it needs to sweep. Knock Off is an interesting option that punishes Chansey and Blissey for switching in, and thanks to Seismitoad's decent base 95 Attack it 2HKOs Latios and Latias, but Seismitoad struggles to fit it into its moveset as its other coverage is generally more desirable. Finally, Sludge Bomb can be used over Sludge Wave; while the added chance to poison would usually make it a more desirable option, Sludge Wave is able to hit Bulletproof Chesnaught, a Pokemon that can wall common rain sweepers such as Kabutops. If none of Seismitoad's teammates are threatened by Chesnaught, Sludge Bomb would be the preferred option.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EV spread maximizes Seismitoad's Speed and power. Life Orb is the preferred item as Seismitoad greatly appreciates the power boost and the ability to switch moves. A Timid nature and an EV spread of 68 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe can be used to allow Seismitoad to outspeed Deoxys-S and fast Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp in the rain, but the power loss is very noticeable. For example, while a Seismitoad running this EV spread outspeeds Choice Scarf Garchomp, its Hydro Pump is no longer powerful enough to reliably OHKO it after Stealth Rock damage.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    In the rain, Seismitoad is very fast, its Hydro Pump hits very hard, and its Electric immunity means its sweep cannot be cut short by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave; it can thus serve as an effective win condition if bulky Water- and Grass-types are sufficiently worn down by other rain sweepers. Seismitoad can also be used to set up other rain sweepers for a sweep, as its good coverage can be used to weaken common rain checks such as Azumarill and Ferrothorn.

    Seismitoad's good defensive typing and respectable bulk means it has no issues switching in on most Electric-types. It can aggressively switch in on Pokemon such as Thundurus and Raikou if they come in to check or counter your other rain sweepers.

    Seismitoad is dependent on rain support in order to sweep, and rain turns are limited. While Seismitoad can 2HKO Pokemon such as physically defensive Sylveon and specially defensive Clefable, if they find a free switch in, they can easily stall out all of your rain turns by using Wish + Protect. If you predict Protect, you can use the opportunity to switch out Seismitoad and bring in another sweeper for free.

    Team Options
    ========

    Seismitoad is completely dependent on rain support to function in OU, so Drizzle Politoed is a mandatory partner. Damp Rock Deoxys-S is another useful teammate as when used in the lead slot it can almost guarantee the setup of Stealth Rock and 8-turn rain.

    In general, Seismitoad works well with rain sweepers that are vulnerable to being crippled by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave or that are otherwise checked or countered by fast Electric-types like such as Mega Manectric or Raikou. Seismitoad's bulk and defensive typing mean it has no trouble switching in on these Pokemon, and in the rain it poses an immediate threat to your opponent's team. This means that Seismitoad is an excellent partner for other Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Kingdra as well as regular rain sweepers like such as Keldeo and Tornadus.

    In return, Seismitoad appreciates teammates that can switch in on and break through the bulky Grass- and Water-types and dedicated special walls that can easily handle its attacks. Grass-resistant pivots such as Tornadus-T and Scizor can trivially switch in on the bulky Grass-types that threaten Seismitoad and have the option of U-turn to keep momentum in your favour. Water-resistant and Water-immune Pokemon who resist, or are are immune to, Water such as Kingdra, Kyurem-B, and Toxicroak can switch in on bulky Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune and cause trouble. Strong Fighting-(Add hyphen)(Remove space) types such as Keldeo and Toxicroak make good teammates as they directly threaten special walls such as Chansey and Blissey, but Seismitoad also meshes well with Pokemon that can lure Chansey in. Two good examples are Knock Off + Superpower Thundurus and Tornadus; these Pokemon can lure Chansey in with the threat of powerful Thunders or Hurricanes and score a 2HKO by using Knock Off to remove Chansey's Eviolite before finishing it off with Superpower.

    Other Options
    ########

    Seismitoad's mediocre base stats and awkward movepool limit its ability to effectively perform other roles. Seismitoad learns Stealth Rock and can make use of it if you have no other options for setting up the hazard, but its inability to threaten Latias and Latios, the most common Defog users, is a major problem. Seismitoad can use Rain Dance to function as a secondary weather inducer to ease the stress on Politoed; with its good bulk and typing, Seismitoad has many opportunities to set up Rain Dance, but it comes at the expense of coverage options. Seismitoad has access to a few other special coverage moves such as Icy Wind, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Electric, which could be used to hit specific targets, though overall these moves are very weak and much less viable than the moves on the main set. As Seismitoad's Attack is higher than its Special Attack, a physical Swift Swim set may seem appealing, but without a physical Water STAB move it is inferior to the listed special set. In BW, Seismitoad saw niche use in OU with a physically defensive Water Absorb set, but rain teams are now less common, and most popular OU Water-types can 2HKO defensive Seismitoad regardless of Water Absorb. This means that defensive Seismitoad is generally outclassed by other bulky Ground-types such as Hippowdon, which has superior bulk and access to reliable recovery.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Bulky Grass-types** Grass-types resist Seismitoad's STAB Hydro Pump and can inflict massive damage with their own STAB attacks. Ferrothorn needs to be mindful of Focus Blast, and other Grass-types risk being KOed by Sludge Wave,(AC) so they often only function as strong checks, but Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss are hard counters to Seismitoad.

    **Bulky Water-types** Solid Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune resist Seismitoad's Water STAB, take little damage from Seismitoad's its coverage moves, and threaten it with their own Water STAB moves that are boosted by the rain.

    **Bulky Dragon-types** Latias and Latios resist Seismitoad's Water STAB and take little damage from most of its coverage moves, but they do need to be wary of Knock Off. Goodra is another strong Seismitoad counter(Maybe expand upon this).

    **Dedicated special walls**(Add space)Seismitoad's low base Special Attack means that it cannot break through special walls such as Blissey, Chansey, and specially defensive Sylveon, even in the rain.

    **Powerful, Water-resistant Pokemon** In a pinch, most Water-resistant Pokemon that aren't weak to one of Seismitoad's coverage moves can serve as a Seismitoad check to it. Pokemon such as Keldeo and Dragonite are barely 2HKOed by Seismitoad's coverage moves and can easily OHKO it in return.
  18. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
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    Thanks for the amcheck, implemented everything you suggested except

    Rain Hydro Pump hits almost as hard as SE Earth Power. I did a few calcs but couldn't find any common situation where you scored a KO with one but not the other- both Hydro Pump and Earth Power OHKO standard Mega Manectric without rocks and non-Vest Kou with rocks, and both 2HKO Vest Kou. Earth Power is mainly useful for its neutral coverage and reliability, not its super effective coverage.

    I also reworded the bulky dragons section in C & C since I couldn't think of anything to say about Goodra specifically that wouldn't be repeating what I said about Latios and Latias
  19. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    One that it does gain an OHKO on is Magnezone:
    • 252+ SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 532-628 (164.1 - 193.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252+ SpA Seismitoad Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone in Rain: 244-288 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  20. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    Those calcs are missing Life Orb.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone in Rain: 313-370 (96.6 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    One Pokemon that is affected is max HP Mega Ampharos- Earth Power 2HKOs, Hydro Pump 3HKOs- but I dunno if it's worth specifically mentioning it since it's quite an uncommon Pokemon in OU (yeah, I'm aware of the irony of saying that while writing an analysis for Seismitoad :>) and it also seems pretty intuitive that you'd hit mega amphy with the attack it's weak to and not the one it resists.
  21. mikelos

    mikelos

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    would water absorb set work
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  22. LightningLuxray

    LightningLuxray
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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  23. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

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    I mentioned Water Absorb in OO, that's the most I'd be willing to give it. I ran it for a few days to see if it was worth mentioning before suggesting Toad in the analysis reservation thread and I found it was, uh, aggressively mediocre. Like, it's one of those sets which just slaps you across the face with how mediocre it is. It's functional, and it does technically have a niche (it's Gastrodon with Stealth Rock > Recover) but it's not something I can in good conscience recommend.
  24. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    This is based around an old reply, but the reason Ferrothorn was recommended was because, while it does waste rain turns while it is in, it actually works very well on rain teams due to it successfully beating/walling opposing Water-types reliably and, while Ludicolo works better on HO teams, it works well on more balanced offensive and bulky offensive teams - the kind that you will typically see Seismitoad on - and is definitely worth considering over Ludicolo on such teams, and it completely outshines Ludicolo on more defensive teams (unless it is the rare AV Ludicolo)

    Edit: Also remove Water Absorb from OO as, like you said before, it is aggressively mediocre and Seismitoad has no niche with it.
  25. horyzhnz

    horyzhnz better than forn
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    stuff (open)

    Overview
    ########

    Seismitoad is an unusual rain sweeper that has carved a niche in OU as the only Swift Swim user with an Electric immunity. This immunity means that Seismitoad's sweep cannot be cut short by Prankster Thundurus's Thunder Wave and grants it easy switch-in opportunities against threatening Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou. Seismitoad also sports respectable 105 / 75 / 75 bulk and access to useful coverage moves such as Focus Blast and Sludge Wave, which allow it to hit common threats to rain teams such as Ferrothorn and Azumarill for super effective damage.

    Seismitoad's main weakness is its sub-par (remove hyphen) base 85 Special Attack stat; while its rain-boosted Hydro Pump is still powerful, Seismitoad's coverage moves are often disappointingly weak, and it can struggle to make an impact against more defensive teams. Seismitoad is also totally dependent on external rain support from Politoed or Damp Rock Rain Dance users to function in OU, as it is far too slow and weak to sweep without it.

    Rain Sweeper
    ########
    name: Rain Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Sludge Wave
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========

    Seismitoad's strong Water-type STAB and very high Speed thanks to its Swift Swim ability,(RC) Swift Swim,(RC) make it an effective sweeper in the rain. Rain-boosted Hydro Pump is by far the most powerful move in Seismitoad's arsenal, dealing excellent damage in spite of its low base Special Attack. Earth Power is a reliable secondary STAB. Focus Blast is mainly used to land the 2HKO on Ferrothorn, a problematic Pokemon for many rain teams, but it also hits other notable Pokémon such as Kyurem-B. Sludge Wave deals great damage to Azumarill, another Pokemon whose resistances, bulk, and offensive power cause rain teams trouble.

    Surf and Scald can be used instead of Hydro Pump if the latter's accuracy is a sticking point, but Seismitoad really wants the power granted by Hydro Pump to score the 2HKOs and OHKOs it needs to sweep. Knock Off is an interesting option that punishes Chansey and Blissey for switching in, and thanks to Seismitoad's decent base 95 Attack it 2HKOs Latios and Latias, but Seismitoad struggles to fit it into its moveset as its other coverage moves are is generally more desirable. Finally, Sludge Bomb can be used over Sludge Wave; while the added chance to poison would usually make it a more desirable option, Sludge Wave is able to hit Bulletproof Chesnaught, a Pokemon that can wall common rain sweepers such as Kabutops. If none of Seismitoad's teammates are threatened by Chesnaught, Sludge Bomb would be the preferred option.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EV spread maximizes Seismitoad's Speed and power. Life Orb is the preferred item as Seismitoad greatly appreciates the power boost and the ability to switch moves. A Timid nature and an EV spread of 68 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe can be used to allow Seismitoad to outspeed Deoxys-S and fast Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp in the rain, but the power loss is very noticeable. For example, while a Seismitoad running this EV spread outspeeds Choice Scarf Garchomp, its Hydro Pump is no longer powerful enough to reliably OHKO it after Stealth Rock damage.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    In the rain, Seismitoad is very fast, its Hydro Pump hits very hard with Hydro Pump, and its Electric immunity means its sweep cannot be cut short by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave; it can thus it can serve as an effective win condition if bulky Water- and Grass-types are sufficiently worn down by other rain sweepers. Seismitoad can also be used to set up other rain sweepers for a sweep, as its good coverage can be used to weaken common rain checks such as Azumarill and Ferrothorn.

    Seismitoad's good defensive typing and respectable bulk means it has no issues switching in on most Electric-types. It can aggressively switch in on Pokemon such as Thundurus and Raikou if they come in to check or counter your other rain sweepers.

    Seismitoad is dependent on rain support in order to sweep, and rain turns are limited. While Seismitoad can 2HKO Pokemon such as physically defensive Sylveon and specially defensive Clefable, if they find a free switch-in (add hyphen), they can easily stall out all of your rain turns by using Wish + and Protect. If you predict Protect, you can use the opportunity to switch out Seismitoad and bring in another sweeper for free.

    Team Options
    ========

    Seismitoad is completely dependent on rain support to function in OU, so Drizzle Politoed is a mandatory partner. Damp Rock Deoxys-S is another useful teammate as when used in the lead slot it can almost guarantee the setup of Stealth Rock and 8-turn rain.

    In general, Seismitoad works well with rain sweepers that are either vulnerable to being crippled by Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave or that are otherwise checked or countered by fast Electric-types such as Mega Manectric or Raikou. Seismitoad's bulk and typing mean it has no trouble switching in on these Pokemon, and in the rain it poses an immediate threat to your opponent's team. This means that Seismitoad is an excellent partner for other Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Kingdra as well as regular rain sweepers such as Keldeo and Tornadus.

    In return, Seismitoad appreciates teammates that can switch into on and break through the bulky Grass- and Water-types and dedicated special walls that can easily handle its attacks. Grass-resistant pivots such as Tornadus-T and Scizor can trivially easily switch in on the bulky Grass-types that threaten Seismitoad and also have the option of using U-turn to keep momentum in your favour. Pokemon who resist, or are immune to, Water-type moves such as Kingdra, Kyurem-B, and Toxicroak can switch in on bulky Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune and cause trouble. Strong Fighting-types such as like Keldeo and Toxicroak make good teammates as they directly threaten special walls such as Chansey and Blissey, but Seismitoad also meshes well with Pokemon that can lure Chansey the aforementioned threats in. Two good examples are Knock Off + Superpower Thundurus and Tornadus; these Pokemon can lure Chansey in with the threat of powerful Thunders or Hurricanes and score a 2HKO by using Knock Off to remove Chansey's Eviolite before finishing it off with Superpower.

    Other Options
    ########

    Seismitoad's mediocre base stats and awkward movepool limit its ability to effectively perform other roles. Seismitoad learns Stealth Rock and can make use of it if you have no other options for setting up the entry hazard, but its inability to threaten Latias and Latios, the most common Defog users, is a major problem. Seismitoad can use Rain Dance to function as a secondary weather inducer to ease the stress on Politoed; with its good bulk and typing, Seismitoad has many opportunities to set up Rain Dance, but it comes at the expense of coverage options. Seismitoad has access to a few other coverage moves such as Icy Wind, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Electric, which could be used to hit specific targets, though but overall these moves are very weak in general and much less viable than the moves on the main set. As Seismitoad's Attack stat is higher than its Special Attack stat, a physical Swift Swim set may seem appealing, but without a physical Water STAB move it is inferior to the listed special set. In BW, Seismitoad saw niche use in OU with a physically defensive Water Absorb set, but rain teams are now less common, and most popular OU Water-types can 2HKO defensive Seismitoad regardless of Water Absorb. This means that defensive Seismitoad is generally outclassed by other bulky Ground-types such as Hippowdon, which has superior bulk and access to reliable recovery.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Bulky Grass-types** Grass-types resist Seismitoad's STAB Hydro Pump and can inflict massive damage with their own STAB attacks. However, Ferrothorn needs to be mindful of Focus Blast, and other Grass-types risk being KOed by Sludge Wave, so they often only function as strong checks, but Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss are hard counters to Seismitoad.

    **Bulky Water-types** Solid Water-types such as specially defensive Rotom-W and Suicune resist Seismitoad's Water-type STAB, take little damage from its coverage moves, and threaten it with their own Water-type STAB moves that are boosted by the rain.

    **Bulky Dragon-types** Goodra, Latias,(AC) and Latios resist Seismitoad's Water STAB and take little damage from most of its coverage moves. However, Latias and Latios need to be wary of Knock Off.

    **Dedicated special walls** Seismitoad's low base Special Attack means that it cannot break through special walls such as Blissey, Chansey, and specially defensive Sylveon, even in the rain.

    **Powerful, Water-resistant Pokemon** In a pinch, most Water-resistant Pokemon that aren't weak to one of Seismitoad's coverage moves can serve as a check to it. Pokemon such as Keldeo and Dragonite are barely 2HKOed by its coverage moves and can easily OHKO in return.


    Nicely done, just a few changes of word choice. tbh, still not sure how this gets an OU analyze, but w/e.

    GP 2/2

    [​IMG]

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